[Closed] Another incident in France. Hostages taken and shots fired.

Priest murdered. Attackers both killed.

The situation in France is out of control. Arny have been stationed outside every synagogue since Hyper Cacher / Charlie Ebdo this now needs to be extended.

Absolutely no doubt in my mind that IS propaganda has been calling for mass "lone wolf" attacks. We've had one every few days.

Indeed looks like this was exactly what ISIS* called for after they expressed 'joy' at the Brexit result and how it has destabilised Europe.

The fracturing of Europe is just what ISIS wants and we have played right into their hands

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/isis-calls-attacks-berlin-brussels-827302

* The latest guys shouted 'Daesh' b4 they attacked I thought we'd been assured that was insulring

Yeah, sounds like militant Bremainers driven to extreme lengths by Bojo's lies. /sarcasm.

Or perhaps ISIS would have made political capitol whatever way the Brexit vote went. Vote to leave, Europe is fracured. Just what ISIS wanted. Vote to remain, Britain's border policy remains unchanged, ISIS floods Britain with fighters posing as refugees. Just what ISIS wanted.

The latest guys shouted 'Daesh' b4 they attacked I thought we'd been assured that was insulting

That is weird, probably just shows the disconnect between ISIS itself and the collection of lone wolf nutjobs who are following them.

No Daesh is a name they self apply, but when it's mispronounced by westerners it sounds insulting to them.

jimjam - Member
Vote to remain, Britain's border policy remains unchanged, ISIS floods Britain with fighters posing as refugees. Just what ISIS wanted.

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you are nigel farage and I claim my 5 shillings 🙄

jimjam - Member

No Daesh is a name they self apply, but when it's mispronounced by westerners it sounds insulting to them.

Or so people say. But there's about 4 different explanations as to why they don't like Daesh and they're not very compatible. I asked a syrian mate, he said essentially "it's a load of crap, it's mostly just something people say, to pretend they're doing something" Yeah we're fighting ISIS by saying so-called-Islamic-State, that'll larn them.

kimbers

you are nigel farage and I claim my 5 shillings

Did you just completely fail to notice that I was using that as an example as to how ISIS' publicity mouth pieces would construe a vote to remain? Not an actual prediction of what would happen.

jimjam

Or perhaps ISIS would have made political capitol whatever way the Brexit vote went.

Why do some remain voters blame everything bad that happens on brexit? These murders cannot be blamed on brexit and would have happened regardless (I voted remain btw).

I feel sorry for France as a nation and have no idea how they can stop these events happening. I fear it will only get worse as hate crime against the Muslim community will inevitably increase resulting in more Muslim youths turning to ISIS as they will feel they have no future in France.

Why do some remain voters blame everything bad that happens on brexit? These murders cannot be blamed on brexit and would have happened regardless (I voted remain btw).

+1.

I fear it will only get worse as hate crime against the Muslim community will inevitably increase resulting in more Muslim youths turning to ISIS as they will feel they have no future in France.

Yup, which is why ISIS want the attacks. Best way to counter is to be friendly to Muslims.

Its perfectly legitimate to question whether ISIS are capitalising on the Brexit instability

If, as they claim, they now see Europe as weaker they are ramping up their attacks, seems a logical progression to damage the Europe & the west further

David CAmeron himself stated that ISIS leadership would be happy with us leaving the EU
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/david-cameron-islamic-state-brexit-might-be-happy-al-baghdadi-nigel-farage_uk_573b0713e4b0b11a329f79a7

and 13 of Britains top ex-military commanders warned Brexit would make us less safe

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/david-cameron-islamic-state-brexit-might-be-happy-al-baghdadi-nigel-farage_uk_573b0713e4b0b11a329f79a7 <

The brexiteers really don't like it up 'em do they?

Vote to remain, Britain's border policy remains unchanged, ISIS floods Britain with fighters posing as refugees. Just what ISIS wanted.

Our border policy remains unchanged.
It'll be a couple of years before that changes, [url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/19/amber-rudd-and-boris-johnson-signal-that-net-migration-target-ha/ ]IF it ever does[/url].

Also it should probably be pointed out that Syria isn't in the EU and we'll still have refugees and asylum seekers coming to Britain after we leave the EU.

These attacks will lead to a violent response. Somebody, somewhere (likely France) will kill a muslim to avenge the recent atrocities.

And there germinates the seed of civil war and the unrest that so-called IS will delight in will propagate.

The tinderbox is primed and the circumstances are coinciding.

IM not sure that civil war in Europe, if thats what you are saying is that likely?

certainly though, as we are often reminded on here, Hollande is facing elections and these attacks simply drive more people into the arms of the far-right

and with Marine LePen in power, Frexit and further disintegration of the EU are surely assured

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ISIS know all of this
They are playing on fear to achieve politically what they could never achieve militarily;
the break up of Europe - and our own far right politicians are making it happen for them

[img] [/img]

should the UK be scared of such lone wolf attacks?

"I feel sorry for France as a nation and have no idea how they can stop these events happening. I fear it will only get worse as hate crime against the Muslim community will inevitably increase resulting in more Muslim youths turning to ISIS as they will feel they have no future in France."

Muslim communities in France have felt under intense pressure, and victims of prejudice and discrimination for decades. From the banlieues of Paris, to the poor areas or Marseille, there are countless accounts of police harassment and attacks on Muslims. France banned the wearing of niqabs (and other face coverings in public) a few years ago, one of the first countries globally to do so. It's no surprise that such attacks are now being perpetrated by individuals in France who come from such communities.

Blaming ISIS/Daesh/whatever is not going to solve a damn thing. France needs to look at itself, and work out how it's going to reverse the process of demonising entire communities, that it's ignored for far too long. Or we'll see a lot more attacks of this nature.

Yup, which is why ISIS want the attacks. Best way to counter is to be friendly to Muslims.

should the UK be scared of such lone wolf attacks?

I'm amazed we aren't seeing them given the much better chances of getting away unshot (appreciate of course that some of them don't want to get away). Perhaps, and I don't know, in light of clodhopper's post, we are more tolerant and welcoming than other countries?

Clodhopper you are a fool. You also deny agency to these poor Muslims, and hence are a patronising fool. Lack of employment does not cause someone to behead a priest. If you think these attacks are the fault of the secular French state, then you are an apologist who deserves nothing but disdain.

"Clodhopper you are a fool. You also deny agency to these poor Muslims, and hence are a patronising fool. Lack of employment does not cause someone to behead a priest. If you think these attacks are the fault of the secular French state, then you are an apologist who deserves nothing but disdain."

Blimey. That's me told then. 😯

France banned the wearing of niqabs (and other face coverings in public) a few years ago, one of the first countries globally to do so. It's no surprise that such attacks are now being perpetrated by individuals in France who come from such communities.

Blaming the attacks on the fact that Muslim women can no longer wear niqabs, a democratic decision that the Muslim community should respect - is utterly asinine. The Niqab was banned for the same reason other religious or political symbols are banned from public use, would you blame the population of California if they got bombed by Southern rednecks because California banned the Confederate flag?

I agree with Bainbrge - again you're another example of the regressive left who suffer from the racism of low expectations.

I agree with Bainbrge

I also agree with Bainbrge, but I'd have put it in far less confrontational terms.

How many times do I have to post this?

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2015/s4327230.htm

EMMA ALBERICI, PRESENTER: Forensic detectives and sniffer dogs are tonight continuing to search properties targeted during dawn raids in Western Sydney connected with last week's fatal shooting of police accountant Curtis Cheng outside Parramatta police station.

200 officers were this morning involved and they arrested four males aged between 16 and 22 in the raids in four suburbs.

Three of the four males arrested were also the target of last year's Operation Appleby, the country's biggest counter-terrorism raids.

Among those taken into custody was a 16-year-old boy who was in the same year at Arthur Phillip High School as Farhad Jabar Khalil Mohammad, the 15-year-old who shot Mr Cheng.

The high school in Sydney's west was also the scene of a dramatic arrest yesterday in relation to the Parramatta police shooting. A 17-year-old student who allegedly threatened a Sydney police station on his Facebook page was arrested on his way to the school attended by the teenager who shot dead Mr Cheng. Police said the student was detained and questioned and he then threatened and intimidated them. He was arrested and charged on several counts, including harassing and intimidating police.

New South Wales Police Force Deputy Commissioner Catherine Burn said officers were investigating whether any of the men arrested in today's raids were involved in supplying the gun used to kill Mr Cheng.

CATHERINE BURN, NSW DEPUTY POLICE COMMISSIONER: It's a very, very serious concern that in the heart of our community, there is attack planning that is under way and that may have led to what we saw on Friday.

EMMA ALBERICI: New South Wales Premier Mike Baird said it was clear to him that Sydney had a problem with Islamic radicalisation.

MIKE BAIRD, NSW PREMIER: We need to understand that we are in a new world. The risks that are emerging are new. We have to adapt to them. We have to respond and we will. But certainly, my strong assurance to the people of NSW is that our schools are safe.

EMMA ALBERICI: My guest tonight is Hussain Nadim, a counter-radicalisation academic. He's studied at Cambridge and Oxford and is adjunct fellow at International Centre for the Study of Radicalisation at King's College in London. He's in Australia pursuing a PhD in government and public policy at the University of Sydney.

Welcome to Lateline.

HUSSAIN NADIM, COUNTER-RADICALISATION RESEARCHER: Thank you for having me on.

EMMA ALBERICI: What is it that drives young people to become radicalised?

HUSSAIN NADIM: Radicalisation itself is a very vast subject. The problem starts when we try to simplify it for policy making or, for that matter, mass consumption. And to distinguish radicalisation is a very important thing which we haven't been able to do over here in Australia or for that matter in the UK and in the US as well. And radicalisation itself is not bad. This is one of the things that we need to understand.

EMMA ALBERICI: Is not bad?

HUSSAIN NADIM: Is not bad. The reason because, radicalisation itself is only a process, and that process is the one which triggers an individual to act in a particular way. Now that action could be positive or that action could be negative. So radicalisation really itself could be either positive radicalisation or negative radicalisation.

EMMA ALBERICI: Well let me rephrase the question and ask you: what drives people to get involved in violent extremism?

HUSSAIN NADIM: In violent extremism. That's important. The reason why I distinguish between positive and negative radicalisation is very important because when we talk about violent extremism, that's where we often slip into the radicalisation element where we somehow (inaudible) a lot of concepts, which tends to trigger the community into a defensive mode. And which is why we see a lot of Muslims who might not be radical enough, but they start feeling the us versus - against the other divide and which drives a lot of Muslims towards radicalisation. But radicalisation, really when we speak about in the context of today world, is more about how the Muslims are looking at the world itself. There are certain ideological underpinnings that a lot of Muslims go through during their childhood, especially when their parents teach them certain things when they're living in the Western world which kind of secludes them from the rest of the society. And once that thing starts happening and I've been an advocate of this idea that radicalisation has really nothing to do with religion. I mean, there has been a study by (inaudible) University in London which completely details that radicalisation has not much to do with religion. It doesn't have much to do either with poverty or social status. A lot of people tend to believe, specifically in the Muslim community, that it's social status that drives radicalisation. Well that's not true at all. Radicalisation is really about the identity crisis and how that triggers a lot of these kids into questioning why they are here, what they want to do.

EMMA ALBERICI: So you're saying they don't feel like they fit in to the Western society in which they live?

HUSSAIN NADIM: And it's very hard for them to fit in. I mean, look at what the basic problem with the Muslim community over here is. The parents want to teach their children to stay away from certain evils of what they see as the Western society - stay away from alcohol, stay away from dating. That's not what they see as a Muslim culture. So they - in order to attempt to that, the Muslim parents convert - teach these kids very ultra-conservative ideology of Islam. Now, when they grow up and they go to the universities or schools, that's where they see their ideology and their teachings coming head-on with the Australian culture. And then they question their parents, that they were taught about this certain thing, but this is not how it is. And then they look for answers and the way they find their answers is not through parents. They look for the answers on social media and that social media has a monopoly of the religious radicals as well.

EMMA ALBERICI: So, let me ask you - I mean, governments in Australia, in the US and the UK have poured millions of dollars over the past decade into counter-radicalisation programs. Do they work?

HUSSAIN NADIM: So far, the problem is: how do you measure radicalisation? The Government has been spending millions and billions of dollars on radicalisation without any monitoring or evaluations. If you ask the Government over here, what the results are, they don't know because they haven't done the monitoring and evaluation. And how do you gauge? For instance, the Government spends a lot of money on trying to moderate - modernise and moderate Muslims who are at risk. How do you define who is at risk?

EMMA ALBERICI: How do you define who's at risk?

HUSSAIN NADIM: I mean, it's impossible to define it. I mean, anybody could be harbouring any sort of support for ISIS in Iraq, but he hasn't been acting. How do you define that person as a threat to the national security of Australia so that it becomes problematic?

EMMA ALBERICI: You recently wrote in the Lowy Interpreter that Muslim community leaders are not experts on the subject of radicalisation. Yet aren't they in the main the people governments go to for advice, and if not them, who?

HUSSAIN NADIM: I've severely criticised openly and I've gotten a backlash on that as well. I don't think Muslim community leaders represent the Muslims over here, specifically the youth. They don't connect. The youth has changed, the technology has changed and a lot of times these Muslim community leaders, who the Government use to understand radicalisation, they're not subject experts. Now radicalisation itself is a huge subject. You can't understand that just because you represent - you think you represent a few people, you become the voice of those people. They could be the voice, but subject experts and representing them and understanding radicalisation, I don't think Muslim community (inaudible) ...

EMMA ALBERICI: Are you saying there's a generational gap there?

HUSSAIN NADIM: There is a generational gap. There is a huge technology gap, the generation gap. A lot of Muslim community leaders tend to think that radicalisation is occurring because somehow their issues are (inaudible) in the '70s, the economic - less opportunity and etc. as they (inaudible) the new class. If you look at the patterns of radicalisation all across Europe, US and also in Australia, it's not because these kids have any lack of opportunity. A 16-year-old kid who did what he did in Parramatta wasn't doing it because he thought, "I wouldn't get a job." He was just 16 years, still in school.

EMMA ALBERICI: So why did he do it yet?

HUSSAIN NADIM: That's because of ideology.

EMMA ALBERICI: I mean, we don't know yet, but is it attached to a religious belief?

HUSSAIN NADIM: No. I don't think religion - religious (inaudible), because frankly I don't think in a 16-year-old kid is that religiously inclined that he would act on behalf of religion.

EMMA ALBERICI: So what is the ideology that makes him commit such a heinous act?

HUSSAIN NADIM: The current project that I'm doing is specifically on this subject, on understanding the Muslim world view and that is at the centre of understanding radicalisation. There are certain themes that Muslims have grown up, in fact my own self, we were grown up believing certain things. One of the themes was that there would be a clash of civilisation eventually. There will be a resurgence of Islam, partly because of the entire colonisation period, Muslims have been mobilised by communities, there will come have a time when we will have our glory back. So that idea has kind of, like, travelled down to today where Muslims are looking at resurgence of Islam in a sort of global khilafah. The second idea is that Muslims generally feel that Islam is under attack. Now that has something which has very, very strong, not religiously, but politically and socially, that has a very strong value that somehow we are being under attack and the events globally might not be related to religion, but they are proving them to be right. I mean, 9/11 happened. After that there was Afghanistan. A lost Muslims said that that makes sense because 9/11 happened. But then when the US went into Iraq and then when Iran was being threatened, then Syria and all these places - I mean, look at - ask Muslims over here in Australia: who is sponsoring ISIS? And the answer you will get is that it's the US. Now that's something very disturbing because that's not really true. But the Muslims are looking at this problem as something which is driven by the US foreign policy and hence they are looking at this as a very political way which they want to counter.

EMMA ALBERICI: So, what role can families play in helping to counter radicalisation?

HUSSAIN NADIM: Families are at the core of this radicalisation issue. When we were dealing with deradicalisation projects in ****stan, we realised that the first and the foremost focal point of deradicalisation strategy has to come from the family. Now problem is that a lot of times, parenting over here is a problem. And I've been to this - talking about this to the Australian Government for a while now, that you cannot deal with deradicalisation of the subject. For instance, if the kid is deradicalisised, you can't just focus on deradicalising that kid. What you need to also focus is on the parenting issue, what the parents are teaching their children. What sort of ideology they are filtering into their children. And that is what really defines whether the kids will fit into Australian society or whether they're gonna get seclude and then go online and realise that, "Oh, this is what really Islam is."

EMMA ALBERICI: So to an extent it's integrating the parents as much as the children into Western society?

HUSSAIN NADIM: I think parents have to be at the core of it, more so, parents need to be deradicalise themselves or teach - taught in ...

EMMA ALBERICI: Better integrated.

HUSSAIN NADIM: Better integrated.

EMMA ALBERICI: Well we've run out of time. Hussain Nadim, thank you very much for coming in.

HUSSAIN NADIM: Thank you so much.

Oh but yes, it's definitely the fault of those evil Frenchies making some Muslims feel bad. Or is it the fault of ultra-conservative views, which things like the niqab help to perpetuate?

If it's about being "oppressed", why do angry French muslims not launch an equivalent campaign to the Black Lives Matter movement, instead of screaming "Allah Ackbar" and then exploding?

I miss Hitchens.

How many times do I have to post this?

Probably a lot more times, before I have the time or inclination to read it!

Then watch the video of the interview.

If it's about being "oppressed", why do angry French muslims not launch an equivalent campaign to the Black Lives Matter movement, instead of screaming "Allah Ackbar" and then exploding?

If you're not careful with your terminology there you'll insight otherwise moderate people to pick up knives machetes or machine guns and randomly kill people in the name of a god they don't really believe in. You also run the risk of insighting otherwise reasonable, rational atheists to go out and set fire to mosques.

The recent rise in Jihadist attacks across Europe is due to unemployment, mental health, lack of tolerance and integration from Europeans, inappropriate clothing on European women and of course Brexit.

inappropriate clothing on European women and of course Brexit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law

The niqab banning though, contributes to this point in your lengthy cut n paste Tom

The second idea is that Muslims generally feel that Islam is under attack. Now that has something which has very, very strong, not religiously, but politically and socially, that has a very strong value that somehow we are being under attack

as much as the veil seems an oppressive thing to us, for many its an accepted part of their culture

in Turkey for example the banning of the veil in universities etc, simply meant that fewer women could attend university, especially those from more religous backgrounds

as ever its not all black and white

political decisions have consequences, like jimjam just said 😉

Kimbers

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/4u98m0/hesitant_in_taking_off_my_hijab/

as much as the veil seems an oppressive thing to us, for many its an accepted part of their culture

in Turkey for example the banning of the veil in universities etc, simply meant that fewer women could attend university

Whilst I don't think that the author would advocate the banning of the veil, it seems very clear to me that he thinks that the Muslim communities in the west need to better integrated into secular liberal ideals and move away from ultra-conservative views. Perhaps a ban will give the communities pause to think as to why the niqab was banned.

but how do you change the niqab mentality within the conservative community tom?

Convince the community leaders that it's within their own interest to counter the ultra-conservative and victim narrative.

Also, if jimjams post was serious - "inappropriate clothing on European women" is disgusting and not actually very clever. Blaming radicalisation on women showing their bodies - is that what the left has stooped to these days? Also, where are all these atheist reprisals? I see none - Breivik wasn't an atheist.

http://metro.co.uk/2016/07/19/mother-and-three-daughters-stabbed-in-french-resort-for-being-scantily-dressed-6016072/

So we've established beyond doubt that it's the fault of the left.

So jimjam, should European women put headscarves on because they don't conform to Muslim standards of dress for women? Was it their fault for being stabbed?

Or are you going to try to make a point that they wouldn't have been stabbed if Muslim women could wear the Niqab and so therefore should have their rights to wear what they want curtailed. Which is bullshit and you know it, they'd have been stabbed regardless.

Am I right in thinking that isis want to establish a muslim state? And that western and every other govt is against that?

Apparently. It includes the occupied territories of Al-Andalus as well 😀

So we've established beyond doubt that it's the fault of the left.

yep, JC is 100% to blame; for everything.

"I agree with Bainbrge - again you're another example of the regressive left who suffer from the racism of low expectations."

Well, I was merely offering an insight into why individuals from a minority within France, who have a proven history of disproportionate oppression, harassment and demonisation, might chose to attack others in the name of something that they might see as an alternative to the crap they feel they've had to endure.

I never offered any opinion on the wearing/banning of religious dress or symbols. So quite how you've come to the conclusion that I'm 'another example of the regressive left who suffer from the racism of low expectations', I have no idea. Would you care to explain as to why you came to this particular conclusion? It does strike me as rather judgmental.

I'm a bit confused...why are we so threatened by an islamic state?

Because the current crazies who want one, include a lot of Europe in their designs. An Islamic state is not threatening automatically, but ISIS ideology, the instability they cause on the periphery of Europe and their policy towards other Shia and secular Muslims are.

why are we so threatened by an islamic state?

Well it would seem to me that there are a few rabid nutbags on here who like to fantasise that after ISIS have fought their way out of all the chaos that they're causing in the middle east (like that'll happen any time soon) then they and all the peaceful muslims of the world are gonna rise up and march on Europe like the mongol horde to convert all our supermarkets into mosques and force us all to eat halal and wear funny clothes

it's a bit mental really

I blame their war fetish on them reading too much Biggles when they were kids (too much COD for the younger ones)

I'm a bit confused...why are we so threatened by an islamic state?

I'm neither confused nor threatened...

You know Yunki, despite the fact that if they did take Syria and Iraq the simple fact that they thrive on chaos to survive and pull in more supporters means that they would carry on targeting Europe and at greater rates.

TomW1967; would you care to answer the question I asked you please.

lazybike - Member

I'm a bit confused...why are we so threatened by an islamic state?

We're not threatened specifically by the idea of an islamic state. We're threatened by this attempt at an islamic state because it's all quite explodey and awful.

I never offered any opinion on the wearing/banning of religious dress or symbols. So quite how you've come to the conclusion that I'm 'another example of the regressive left who suffer from the racism of low expectations', I have no idea. Would you care to explain as to why you came to this particular conclusion? It does strike me as rather judgmental.

Because it wasn't an insight, it was apologetics.

Integration. These people do not wish to be integrated into our Western liberal society in any way. We live in a free society, we cannot and should not force them to integrateq. However, we do require them to obey the law, our law. If they don't wish to do that there is a long list of countries who do mirror more closely their values

A note on the German bar bomber. A friend of his has said he was unhappy at being deported to Bulgaria as it "is a poor country". That seemed to be enough to cause him to want to kill as many people as possible.

Why shouldn't we Jamby? You don't have to force them so to speak. As the ****stani researcher pointed out, if we targeted the parents - through for example - setting up parenting classes and teaching them European values and why their children are being radicalised by their own values and why this is unacceptable to us.

But of course, there will be those moaning that "oh I/he/she feels offended by you assuming my children will become radicalised"

"Because it wasn't an insight, it was apologetics."

Oh it was, was it? I see.

I thought it was perhaps best to try to understand the root of the anger and hatred that compels individuals to commit such vile atrocities. And rather than simply taking things at face value, and allowing oneself to be caught up in hysterical knee-jerking, which achieves precisely nothing but perpetuating the status quo, or even worsening it.

Rather than sitting there twitching with rage against this demonic 'other', I chose instead, to try to become better informed on the situation faced by many Muslim people in France, and to try to find out about their views, rather than remain ignorant. Having had a number of conversations with French Muslims over the years, it's clear that there has been a growing problem in France, of minorities feeling increasingly oppressed, harassed and demonised, sometimes to the point of violence. That this has not happened in isolation, but rather in response to a huge increase in attacks on Muslims, particularly women and children, and given France's unenviable colonial past, I personally feel that these issues must be given very careful consideration and thought, if any positive progression is to be made.

This aproach, in your mind, is apparently 'apologist'. Interesting.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/22/frances-headscarf-war-attack-on-freedom

"These people"

"our"

" We "

"our law"

"they"

"their values"

.

Right lads, I'm going to start a new religion. We are going to ban beer,bacon and scantily clad ladies.
Any takers?
How the **** did it get so popular?

Except your "understanding" is a shallow and bien pensant understanding of the situation that very few people haven't already read somewhere. Everyone knows about the Niqab ban, everyone knows about social inequality in France - neither are good enough explanations for the violence that we are seeing now. As I've said before, other people, cultures and societies have gone through periods of low level oppression without resorting to such violence. My link to the interview with the well regarded ****stani researcher proves that there is more going on than a simple "they feel aggrieved because they are (insert excuse here)"

. It doesn't have much to do either with poverty or social status. A lot of people tend to believe, specifically in the Muslim community, that it's social status that drives radicalisation. Well that's not true at all. Radicalisation is really about the identity crisis and how that triggers a lot of these kids into questioning why they are here, what they want to do.

Tom_W1987 - Member

So jimjam, should European women put headscarves on because they don't conform to Muslim standards of dress for women? Was it their fault for being stabbed?

sarcasm Tom.

I did suspect Poe's law - but you rather cryptically linked to that article after I mentioned it.

I missed that.

The situation in France is out of control.

No it isn't.

These people do not wish to be integrated into our Western liberal society in any way.

However, we do require them to obey the law, our law. If they don't wish to do that there is a long list of countries who do mirror more closely their values

You don't have to force them so to speak. As the ****stani researcher pointed out, if we targeted the parents - through for example - setting up parenting classes and teaching them European values

I get your point but it that not a bit of cultural imperialism. They have a culture we have a culture. However ours is best so do that and ignore yours. Its unlikely to be effective.

and why their children are being radicalised by their own values and why this is unacceptable to us.

I get your broad point and i see what you mean. Hopefully you see what i mean. We cannot really force them to be western liberals- tbh its a bit of an oxymoron anyway. I see why it would be advantageous if we could.

"Except your "understanding" is a shallow and bien pensant understanding of the situation "

Very good. I had to google 'bien pensant', as I'm not fluent in French. 🙂

I still have absolutely no idea what you're waffling on about though. You seem to have even reinforced my own position on things:

"Radicalisation is really about the identity crisis and how that triggers a lot of these kids into questioning why they are here, what they want to do."

And why do you think this 'identity crisis' is happening?

"I did suspect Poe's law"

It's really quite amusing how you imagine yourself to be more intelligent than you display on here.

We are going to ban beer,bacon and scantily clad ladies.
Any takers?

Bagsy being the prophet though

Secularism in France. Its fundamental to their society. You cannot have a religious wedding ceremony until after a secular town hall service, it isn't just that the secular one is the legally recognised one it has to take place first. Wearing of headscarves, long dresses, covered arms. This is allowed amd widely practiced. What you cannot do legally is cover your face. Now as I understand it the covering of the faces of women is quite rare in Morocco / Tunisia and Algeria - the countries of origin on many French muslims. As such I don't see "secularism" as being the cause of these terrorist attacks.

Social issues. France has Europe's largest muslim population and one of (if not) the most generous welfare states. The two Charlie Ebdo killers where brought up as orphans by the state who provided them with everything. With a large ethnic population they have every chance to feel part of a multi-cultural nation

Bagsy being the prophet though

Instant fatwa there 😯

BTW "these people" refers to the terroorists and is in responce to the many posters her who have suggested "lack of integration" is the cause. It isn't the cause its a symptom of their ideology. They are choosing not to integrate.

Bagsy being the prophet though

Aren't you a vegetablist, Junky?

FALSE PROPHET!

@clod - it is them and us, we who obey the laws of our country and are proud to be citizens and celebrate our liberal western values. Let me help you with a translation.

"These people" - terrorist
"our" - citizens of the United Kingdom of all ethnicities
" We "
"our law" - the law of the UK made by, belonging to and applied to all UK citizens
"they" - the terrorists
"their values" - sharia law

[i]Them[/i]

[i]Us[/i]

.

And why do you think this 'identity crisis' is happening?

Because of their parents retreat into ultra-orthodox views, quite possibly the niqab laws, our failure to sell previous interventionist policies in the right light (like we did with Kosovo) but not social inequality.

I get your point but it that not a bit of cultural imperialism. They have a culture we have a culture. However ours is best so do that and ignore yours. Its unlikely to be effective.

I'm inclined to agree Junkyard. What worries me is that the Muslim community are going to be too slow in perceiving this and reacting to what will end up being a threat to their own existence within Europe. If they don't wake up, with the way things are going with Trump and Brexit we'll see mainstream calls for internment etc within a decade.

"Because of their parents retreat into ultra-orthodox views"

So why might that be happening?

Quite literally - because they aren't used to alcohol, scantily clad women and various other western excesses that they don't want their children to partake in.

And no before you say it, it has nothing to do with Iraq - these views were being imparted before then.

Right lads, I'm going to start a new religion. We are going to ban beer,bacon and scantily clad ladies.
Any takers?
How the **** did it get so popular?

because its ok to blow shit up apparently 😕

So why might that be happening?

Because there's a global race (with arms) between various factions each of whom is seeking to be more pious / pure to the written word of their religion than the others.

And this is resulting in increasingly extreme acts to prove said purity - and anyone who objects is automatically judged to be less pure / a less committed believer. This is why there's a consistent pattern of increasingly extreme violence across most of the middle east and increasingly Africa - in upwards of 50+ countries now.

The parents / older generations are complicit in this in many European countries by setting the expectations that their children should norm to the "traditions" of their original homelands / places the kids have never been to in many cases rather than norm to the society in which they now live.

I have a number of friends who have experienced this sort of family "tension" and it's extremely difficult for the children to deal with without falling victim to "honour" issues, being ostracised. In many cases they can't maintain any kind of contact with the world outside of their religious community unless this takes place without the knowledge of elders.

This is so simple that it's quite childish - but if parents loosened up their views towards alcohol - if I knew more Muslim lads (despite living in London) who felt okay to come out and have a few drinks with a bunch of white men and women. Do you think the world might be a better place? Once the barriers are removed for socialisation, then people remember that most humans are alright.

But it's always a sticking point, the amount of times I've worked with colleagues who didn't want to come out because "alcohol" - despite our best attempts at saying we don't mind if they don't drink - or even offering not to drink....it's just a little sad.

Ahhhh well.....replace bar with forum.

This is so simple that it's quite childish - but if parents loosened up their views towards alcohol - if I knew more Muslim lads (despite living in London) who felt okay to come out and have a few drinks with a bunch of white men and women. Do you think the world might be a better place? Once the barriers are removed for socialisation, then people remember that most humans are alright.

"This is so simple that it's quite childish - but if parents loosened up their views towards alcohol - if I knew more Muslim lads (despite living in London) who felt okay to come out and have a few drinks with a bunch of white men and women. Do you think the world might be a better place?"

Oh undoubtedly.

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Yeah, I'm so sad that the worst excess of our own culture is binge drinking.

In no way and at no time have I felt threatened or even uncomfortable.

That wasn't the point I was making, harking back to the interview I posted - liberalising attitudes towards drinking would could go someway towards reducing feelings of alienation. At the same time, it would go a long way towards exposing British people to Muslims.

You really think that's the 'worst excess' of UK culture? 😯

So; you've accused me of being an 'apologist' (for what exactly, I'm not sure), yet have so far failed to explain why. And seem to have reduced things to 'Muslims should come and drink beer and then they'd be ok'.

😕

Again because social status has no impact on radicalisation - hence why I accused you of being an apologist, you were effectively victim blaming. Besides authorities in their field believing this, neither does blaming violent radicalisation on social status gel with the hundreds of years of mostly peaceful black rights movements in the US.

And no, don't mention the Black Panthers - they weren't really comparable to ISIS in scale or intent.

Bagsy being the prophet though
Instant fatwa there

What wearies you my child?

Is it facts, the burden of STW omnipotence or is it how shite Spurs are 😉