[Closed] Another cyclist killed.

Horrible. I was in the same queue, possibly a bit later, and saw the van involved. Awful road to either ride on or try to cross.

I don’t know the circumstances of the fatality but if I think I can make a fair guess. And I can make a fair guess as to the outcome if/when it goes to court. I love riding my bike but I honestly feel like it’s just a matter of time before I end up a statistic.

It is very sad but don't assume anything until you know the facts. I have been on the other end of this (a collision with a woman on a moped whilst driving my dad's high powered car in my early twenties) and every single person that drove by as I stood around helplessly trying to help this woman with her head jammed under the front bumper of my car looked at me like it was my fault. It was not. (Thankfully she was not seriously injured BTW).

It is very sad but don’t assume anything until you know the facts

Very much this. Yes, we can all guess who we think was probably at fault, and we may be proved right, but innocent until proven guilty should apply.

@mrsparkle I share your concerns and I hope your friend makes a full recovery.

I was out only yesterday and was dangerously close passed on purpose by a van driver within 1/2 from home. I was tailgated by another driver 2 minutes later who got next to me to argue and abuse me. I totally lost it and told him to pull over because I was going to give him a hiding. He wouldn't but carried on shouting gesturing etc. I punched his window very hard and eventually he drove off. I totally lost it and am so sick of the aggression and bullying of drivers which seems to be much worse. I can actually trace this driver easily but I have calmed down and it would just escalate to violence. I am slightly ashamed of my outburst but sick and tired of being bullied. Its getting worse out there.

I was out only yesterday and was dangerously close passed on purpose by a van driver

Yep I had similar on Sunday (although an Audi A3). I took great pleasure in passing him (and giving him a little look and smile) as I overtook him when he got stuck in a queue of traffic at some road works. I could almost feel his fury boiling over as I disappeared into the distance.

Dreadful, truly dreadful.

There was a young guy seriously hurt on the road out from Aviemore towards Elgin at Avielochan last week, not surprised, some of the driving I've seen on this road is horrendous, not heard how he is. Mate of mine is up in court in october for a close pass he picked up on his bikecam in Edinburgh, great to see Police Scotland following up and pressing charges. Needs more of this.

I honestly feel like it’s just a matter of time before I end up a statistic.

I know the feeling but you have to try and shelve that. The vast majority of bike journey's don't end in an accident statistic, and the benefits to physical and mental health - even allowing for the moments of stress - far outweigh the risks of becoming a statistic.

From Cycling UK

• From 2006, for every one billion miles cycled, the number of cyclists killed or seriously injured (KSI) increased at least until 2012 (in 2006, there were 868 cyclist KSI per billion miles, and 1,070 in 2012). Most of the following years witnessed a drop, but the 2016 figure (1,011 KSI per billion miles) is still higher than that for 2006. In contrast, the KSI rates for people in motor vehicles were all higher in 2006 than they were ten years on.

Increasing then - but I do 3-4000 miles per year, statistically I'd need to ride for about 300 years before becoming a stat.

Horrible, of course. But I'm going to throw something out there:

A590.

I went for a ride a few years back with a roadie (I was on my solaris) and at one point he took us up a dual carriageway "for only one junction".

I thought he was insane tbh. In this country I do everything in my power to avoid tarmac of any sort - including moving house to somewhere with more offroad from my door - so I realise I'm on the extreme side of road aversion.

Absolutely I'm on the side of the fact that cyclists can and should be able to ride on roads - and have an expectation of safety. But sh1t happens. People do act in stupid ways and expecting that to change wholesale is simply howling at the moon like some deranged lunatic.

Until we get structural changes - better infrastructure etc. - then we won't see any drastic reduction in cyclist deaths. And add to that - we'll *never* elimanate them.

So in the meantime I avoid roads like the plague. Even though it's my right to ride on them.

Like a mate of mine pointed out "there are a lot of dead correct people".

I've been working over at my brother's near Newby Bridge and he'd had to work his way round the back lanes to get home that day. It happened about 1330 and the road west bound was still shut when I headed home at 1830 with the accident investigation unit doing their thing. The following day I was back over there and the skid mark from the van was plainly visible and maybe 40-50 metres long.

The accident didn't happen where I thought it would have been, i.e. where the A5074 meets the A590 here - http://streetmap.co.uk/map?X=347122&Y=485292&A=Y&Z=115 , (that junction and the minor road to Foulshaw a little to the west have been the scene of a number of fatalities), but a little to the east. This is the view at roughly that point - @54.2614068,-2.8095116,3a,75y,258.06h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sT1_Jb0yvDMXJDdxEdAJGVg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DT1_Jb0yvDMXJDdxEdAJGVg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D250.09502%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656">Google streetview That shot looks as if it was taken around the same time of day as the accident so no sun in eyes of either party. So not sure what was going on, possibly the cyclist was trying to turn right and didn't see the van or the driver didn't see the cyclist until too late.

Knowing the area it's not a junction I'd use on a bike.

Looking at the above @whitestone. Hate to say it - but although you can be there, completely legally, you really should be questioning why you are.

Expecting to get flamed for that. But a squishy thing with no metal cage doesn't belong on 60-70mph dual carriageways with no segregated cycle lanes.

"Dead correct people".

Increasing then – but I do 3-4000 miles per year, statistically I’d need to ride for about 300 years before becoming a stat.

I assume.you know that this isn't how stats work. Even if it were you could be hit mile 1 and ride the rest without incident. Or I, and my 500 friends may never be hit but you will be 500 times (I sincerely hope no-one ever gets hit). Take care and get a camera just in case.

Yes, I know. But as an indication, of how the risks and benefits stack up i think it still works.

Of course you can always argue too that the benefits can be got another way, on a stationary bike, or offroad, or doing something else entirely. But the premise is that we like bike riding (road riding) and we should not feel like packing in for fear of becoming a statistic.

@onehundredthidiot - you can't tell someone that's not how stats work and then go on to show exactly how they don't work by using the most ridiculous extreme cases.

Frankly, the "riding for 300 years before becoming a stat" is pretty accurate. It shows how safe cycling is.

If you are trying to get up towards Bowness on quieter roads from Milnthorpe or vice versa and take what looks like a more direct route, then you can end up at a dual carriageway junction with no option but to either attempt to cross it in a very dangerous place or follow it for a few hundred yards.

I've had a similar issue with the A19 on the edge of the NYM. I ended up turning back and taking a much longer detour, even though I was knackered and it was less than a mile of dual carriageway.

Nope but little Britain is becoming self absorbed and looking out for and accepting others is not what people do. It's a massive social ill.
I got verbals from motorcyclists this week for taking up too much of the single track road in my van. The fact my front wheel was in muddy ditch two feet off the road and they'd just whizzed past a passing place meant nothing. I was spoiling their fun(slowing them down). That's the mentality that needs addressing.

I know the feeling but you have to try and shelve that. The vast majority of bike journey’s don’t end in an accident statistic, and the benefits to physical and mental health – even allowing for the moments of stress – far outweigh the risks of becoming a statistic.

And yet here we are, telling each other ON A CYCLING FORUM how dangerous it is and/or how we won't ride on the roads any more as a result🤦‍♂️

I want to see us talking about how we've been reporting all these bad drivers, I want to hear the Police being unable to cope with the number of reports they get, I want to see cyclists DEMANDING action is taken is to take these drivers with poor skills and attitudes off the roads.

Every one of us who gives up cycling on roads is a victory for the bullies in the vehicles. I don't put myself in harms way but I'll be damned if I'll be intimidated off the road if that is where I want or need to ride.

Apologies for going a bit Braveheart, but **** it, I won't let the bastards beat me.

(And yes, I've lost two friends to vehicle accidents, several friends injured, I do understand the risks and consequences)

That’s the mentality that needs addressing

Howling at the moon.

You need infrastructure changes. Dedicated cycle lanes. It's not rocket science. You don't change the people (you can't - someone will ALWAYS be a donkey) - you make it functionally safer.

@chevychase - hence my last paragraph/sentence.

When I lived there I would use that road to commute, by bike, into Kendal and TBH it isn't that bad providing you are just riding along the road and not trying to cross it, there's good sight lines all the way.

@martinhutch - coming from Milnthorpe you get to Levens Bridge then head into Levens village then cut across the Lyth Valley on minor roads either from Levens or via Brigsteer. NCN route 700 & route 70 do this.

Frankly, the “riding for 300 years before becoming a stat”

In fairness, it would be better phrased as "riding for 300 years and I'd expect one KSI in that time". I guess if you wanted to you might interpret as being that on average someone will have that accident on Day 1 and then not another (although if I had a KSI on day 1 I probably wouldn't then do another 300 years) and someone else would ride 299 years 364 days and then have their KSI on the last day (maybe, I wouldn't go out that day?)

Does that extrapolate as being once I reach 150 years old, I'll start getting nervous 😉

@whitestone

That's the logical route, and the one I would take, but I guess it's easy to look at the map in some places and think 'I can just hop on/over this A road, it's shorter, and shouldn't be a problem'.

The attitude of some is appalling. I was riding through Epping forest and came up to a pinch point where I had right of way. I was coming down the hill and was practically on the hump in the middle of it when the woman coming the other way just kept coming.

I had moved over as much as I dared to give her room but she actually steered towards me. I admit I lost it a little and hit her mirror as she went past. Sorry but if I can touch any part of your vehicle you are way to close to me.

Looking at the above @whitestone. Hate to say it – but although you can be there, completely legally, you really should be questioning why you are.

I've been forced onto that particular road when a construction company wouldn't let us through their roadworks on the quieter planned route. Never again, and three years later I wish that I'd just pushed the bike through and challenged them to stop me.

coming from Milnthorpe you get to Levens Bridge then head into Levens village then cut across the Lyth Valley on minor roads either from Levens or via Brigsteer. NCN route 700 & route 70 do this.

that's what we do

It seems to work out to roughly 1 KSI for every million miles cycled (obviously this doesn't take into account cycling experience and other factors but let's use that figure for now).

If you do 3000 miles per year it means that each year you cycle there is a 0.3% chance that you will end up KSI. This is not same as cycling for 300 years before you end up a KSI.

If you do 3000 miles per year for 20 years your chances of a KSI in that time goes up to 6% or 1 in 16.7

40 years and it's 1 in 8.3.

This isn't to say that I don't think we should be riding on the road at all. I just think it's a good idea to be realistic about the risks.

Howling at the moon.

You need infrastructure changes. Dedicated cycle lanes. It’s not rocket science. You don’t change the people (you can’t – someone will ALWAYS be a donkey) – you make it functionally safer.

Do we though?

This always seems to be the "answer" don't address the social ills that cause hyper aggressive, deadly driving.
Just inconvenience the would be victims by giving them their very own painted bit if pavement.

Not that "segregated infrastructure" works on B roads, it's a bit of a townie solution... Out in the sticks it might just be easier to just have a 'Range rover' lane and another for 'Proles'...

It feels more like we need a national mentality change rather than some painted lines...

This always seems to be the “answer” don’t address the social ills that cause hyper aggressive, deadly driving.

I'm inclined to agree. Infrastructure - and I'm happy to see good Infrastructure - addresses the symptoms, not the cause, and is a very urban only solution.

My right to cycle on the highway should not be diluted by poor infrastructure or inadequate legal protection.

I read about it on the local rag website (feel dirty now), the article concentrating mainly on the inconvenience to motorists, which says it all. RIP 80yo cyclist from Lancs.

Shelley Stagg, from Barrow, was caught up in the traffic at Witherslack.

She was on her way to Blackpool to watch Dirty Dancing on stage.

She said she and her partner left Barrow at 12 and were caught up in the traffic for around two hours before the eastbound carriageway cleared

coming from Milnthorpe you get to Levens Bridge then head into Levens village then cut across the Lyth Valley on minor roads either from Levens or via Brigsteer. NCN route 700 & route 70 do this.

This is what I do but again, I can see someone deciding the Sampool route is easier (it's certainly flatter as you don't have that climb up to Levens Village) and more direct. The A590 is a very popular TT route (L1015) as it's so fast but maybe that says more about TTers' mentality? It's a joyless, dangerous journey along that road. I might be wrong but despite route 70 running alongside it, there is no or very little signage warning about cyclists. It's also a stretch of road that starts to go to single carraigeway to the west so you get a few idiots racing slower vehicles to beat them to it.

Poor guy.

IMO infrastructure *does* address the cause as well. 90% of people find the thought of cycling on the roads too scary. With infrastructure, these non-cyclists will start to cycle. It becomes normalised, and cyclists no longer seen as an irritating minority.
It's worked in other countries.

Edit to say I'm talking about decent infrastructure (ie not just paint)

I read about it on the local rag website (feel dirty now), the article concentrating mainly on the inconvenience to motorists, which says it all.

Yep, those cyclists are even more of a nuisance when they are dead than when they are alive.

It’s worked in other countries.

It works in a way. I live in Norway which has some excellent cycling infrastructure. However, the problem with that is that drivers don't encounter cyclists as often.

What it results in is even worse levels of driving when motorists and cyclists end up sharing the same stretch of tarmac. I would say worse than the UK.

I read about it on the local rag website (feel dirty now), the article concentrating mainly on the inconvenience to motorists, which says it all. RIP 80yo cyclist from Lancs.

I think the problem is that many people don't view people on bikes as entirely human but rather as members of some 'other' category.

Yep @HoratioHufnagel. 100%.

This:
"It feels more like we need a national mentality change rather than some painted lines…"
Is howling at the moon.

If labour ditched their deep seated desire to change how everyone thinks then they'd be able to get in power to actually do all of the other *great* things they've got ideas about.

But a certain type of person wants to change the people more than anything else. And history is replete with examples of what happens when that sort of power comes to it's logical conclusion...

Looking at the above @whitestone. Hate to say it – but although you can be there, completely legally, you really should be questioning why you are.

As @Flaperon mentions in his reply, I've been forced to "nip across" that road in various places a couple of times as well. I know that section of road well - from the garage I would ride down Old Road to Levens and either across to Sizergh or down Levens Lane and under the 590.

However the accident report mentions the rider was from Lancashire so perhaps not that familiar with the area and the quieter lanes off to that side?

Agree with @whitestone though, there is no way I would ride along that road. Crossing it I can cope with but even that would be in extremis.

Where this particular fatality occurred is not too far from my home.

I agree that statistically overall the chance of an accident is low, but I still tend to try and avoid these types of roads. The consequences of either me as cyclist and/or a driver making a mistake (and I think until the inquest we need to keep an open mind about what happened)

Thinking about it from my perspective as a cyclist

If I found my self coming up from Milnthorpe and wanting to be on the Bowness road (and for some reason I had not gone the longer way around), I would cycle along the pavement until I was opposite the junction, and then wait for a large gap in the traffic before briskly crossing the road pushing the bike, or cross cycling from the left hand side of the road, hiving stopped to have a careful look at the traffic. I do not feel confident about looking over my shoulder whilst cycling and moving right on a busy road like that, too easy to make a mistake and not see a vehicle or underestimate its speed.

@slowpuncheur - the skid marks were in the inside lane so doesn't (to me) look like the van was overtaking anything.

@crazy-legs - you've got what I said the wrong way round: I'm fine with riding along it, I wouldn't want to cross it.

Can you get a camera mounted on your bike?

I use a GoPro Hero3+ which is pretty old now, so probably quite cheap to pick up.
Battery lasts about 90 minutes, so have a spare. Image is good enough to see number plates in daylight. Not done a night ride yet, but assume it won't be.

Now when I get close passed or cut up I add a mental note of where it happened and then upload to report when I get home. Have had the police ask for the original file once in 4 submissions (I've only just started)

Just feels like a bit of revenge for them. Plus, the more people that have cameras and upload the more it will be assumed cyclists have cameras and may raise the level of courtesy.

Used to commute from Greenodd to Kendal, took 2 attempts and one 50cm from death incident before I switched my route to over tow top and brigsteer. Two absolute bastard climbs but better than the 590.

The 591 up to and past Kendal from brettargh Holt is even worse as the lanes are narrower. ****ing terrifying.

Thanks @whitestone. It was mainly a badly put point that there is a lot going on near that junction. People turning right off a fast lane of a dual-carriageway as well. I wasn't apportioning any blame. I ride a lot around North Lancs, South Cumbria and that road is probably in the top 3 to avoid (along with A65 and A591)

So sad and upsetting for everyone when yet another cyclist does like this, as it is with anyone on the roads, my cycling is close to nonexistent and has been for a good while as I’m frankly afraid I’ll not come back one day. It’s appalling how we’re treated by drivers. Having the audacity to use the roads. Down in Cornwall at the moment for the annual holiday and I’ve not had the bike out the bag, driving even short distances isn’t pleasant and others don’t drive with any sense and won’t slow or pull over too as we pass on lanes, last week a couple pulled over practically into my daughter and I walking as they wanted to get up a road when another car was passing, wish now I’d thumped their car as well as the verbal volley. As said at the top, there’s just aid all respect or all looking out for each other anymore.

@thestabiliser - jeez! Those are two of the toughest hills in the South Lakes. I grew up just outside High Newton so know Tow Top well.

@slowpuncheur - a family friend who's an HGV driver reckoned the A590 was one of the worst roads in the country before all the improvements. I don't think those improvements have been to the benefit of cyclists. I always wince when I see riders on the A65, some very poor sight lines on that road.

There was a young guy seriously hurt on the road out from Aviemore towards Elgin at Avielochan last week, not surprised, some of the driving I’ve seen on this road is horrendous, not heard how he is.

I am generally pretty bloody minded aboutriding any road.

But that road makes it well and truly onto the "not a ****ing chance list."*

Thats not a crticism of the riders decision in the slightest he had every right to be there but its a scary one.

*other roads include the bellshill bypass... thats the only road I've thought about stopping, climbing over a fence and carrying through a field. As amusing as riding Moscow to Califonia is... I don't think i'd choose that route again 😀

Infrastructure – and I’m happy to see good Infrastructure – addresses the symptoms, not the cause, and is a very urban only solution.

Not really, Sustrans routes go the length and breadth of the country and generally avoid sharing roads. Its perfectly possible to do it outside of urban areas, there just needs the will behind it.

As for riding on roads like that, I don't understand how anyone can take pleasure in it.

Very sad to hear. Local rider was killed by a driver recently. Hit's a nerve with me as I've been very badly injured a number of times by drivers, worse being 6.5 weeks flat on my back in hospital.

It's taken me 5 years to get back into a little road riding - I switched to MTB after the accident. I'm really careful planning where I ride now, even locally, and avoid rush hour. Commuted to work last week down the canal, all fine, until coming home, last junction near home (short road stretch) woman turns right across me, I scream at her, she stops, but then gives me the V's - like WTF.

PS I'll recognise the private plate and if I see it, and I've been shopping, she'll get a load of spuds up her exhaust.

I won't ride anywhere busy now on roads. The stress it put on my family, and the waiting to see if I'd walk again, no ta.

But a certain type of person wants to change the people more than anything else. And history is replete with examples of what happens when that sort of power comes to it’s logical conclusion…

Hmmm, lots of people's minds are quite easily influenced and behaviour can be changed we've had a couple of examples recently I think. Plus we're not really talking about a contraversial idea, just not expecting to abuse and mow down strangers with impunity because you were a bit late for the school run. TBH If you were ever going to chip away at the "car-centric" mindset now would be about the best time, we've seen a huge uptick in bicycle ownership in the last year and a half and people about as receptive to changes for the greater good as they have been in a decade...

On top of all that the only thing worse than no infrastructure is shite infrastructure, and sadly that's what you get in the UK, hence my painted lines comments, you might like lovely segregated lanes, you'll be getting paint though...

Not really, Sustrans routes go the length and breadth of the country and generally avoid sharing roads.

Big difference between plotting a route on the map and slapping a NCN label on it, and actually riding the thing - which Sustrans has never done, in my experience.

Plus we’re not really talking about a contraversial idea, just not expecting to abuse and mow down strangers with impunity because you were a bit late for the school run.

I did a presentation in a Zoom meeting describing how I'd had abuse for the way I look or for just going down the street, been shouted at, spat at, had things thrown at me, had vehicles driven deliberately at me and even been assaulted and had my attacker cautioned by the Police, and then asked the rest of the attendees to tell me what it was about me that provoked those reactions.

Most suggested it was race or related to my sexuality. They were gobsmacked that it was because I ride a bike.

We don't tolerate that behaviour directed at people due to race or sexuality, why should it be acceptable to do it for any other reason? Though I suspect that there's an interesting Venn diagram for racists, homophobes and cyclist haters.

Big difference between plotting a route on the map and slapping a NCN label on it, and actually riding the thing – which Sustrans has never done, in my experience.

Yeah, Sustrans removed almost a quarter of their signposted routes a while ago:
https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2020/jul/19/national-cycle-network-sustrans-cuts-quarter-uk-routes-safety-grounds

An acknowledgement that a lot of them weren't fit for purpose.
For years, Sustrans (as a campaigning organisation) were limited to what the council finally agreed to do and then Sustrans would enthusiastically sign it off and claim that their campaigning had worked. Problem was they were signing off any old crap - councils would make a few token gestures and rather than kick it back with a shout that it simply wasn't good enough, it was accepted on the grounds of anything is better than nothing.

Result - we're left with a so-called National network that is nothing of the sort. Could be a tarmac back road (ironically like the excellent bit that runs parallel to the A590 from that garage down towards Beck Head) or it could be an unlit muddy trail round the arse end of an industrial estate.

Not really, Sustrans routes go the length and breadth of the country and generally avoid sharing roads.

Looks very pretty on a UK wide map, get down to real world A to B journeys and they are less effective.

Obviously if we choose to prioritise infrastructure and removing cyclists from the roads, rather than removing dangerous and aggressive drivers from the roads, we'll be waiting a long time. One solves the problem for lucky old us, the other solves the problem for all road users and reduces the cost to wider society. Infrastructure would be great in the medium to long term, short term priorities should be elsewhere.

Big difference between plotting a route on the map and slapping a NCN label on it, and actually riding the thing – which Sustrans has never done, in my experience.

I admit my experience is probably different to yours, we have some excellent routes up here, the 4 lane A77 was upgraded to a motorway years ago and reconfigured to be 2 lane with a huge cycle path (more of a seperate road actually) to one side. Still get the militants on the road of course but its a good bit of infrastructure. There are holes of course and that's on the local authorities to sort but the concept is proven.

I do 3-4000 miles per year, statistically I’d need to ride for about 300 years before becoming a stat.

I only do about 40 miles(road) miles a week nowadays. I get close-passed and/or have to make evasive/Jedi-manoeuvres on pretty much every short trip especially near or in towns. It seems very much worse than days gone by. 30 years ago I’d have been doing 200,240ish (road) miles a week and I don’t remember it being near this busy or this dangerous. ymmmv (ha!)

Expect the worst, ride your best and be lucky.

Suggesting that we can’t change people’s attitudes is just silly. It’s broadly no longer acceptable to drink drive. Everyone understands that wearing seatbelt saves lives. The bottom line is cyclists are regularly dehumanised. This needs to change.

Christ - A590 closed again today. Sounds like a car ran into the back of a cement truck near Gilpin Bridge.

Christ – A590 closed again today. Sounds like a car ran into the back of a cement truck near Gilpin Bridge.

Pretty much exactly the same location as the cyclist.
I drove that road on Saturday morning (very early) heading out to Newby Bridge and then mid/late afternoon going back towards the A591 and M6. No issues - hardly any traffic around on the morning run but heavy enough in the afternoon to more or less limit everyone to the same 40-ish mph.

Last Friday afternoon there was near stationary traffic from Mill Side (Witherslack) to Gilpin Bridge, no accident just volume of traffic. The problem, as with both the two accidents is that the Lyth Valley junction is just round a slight left hand bend so if you aren't paying attention it's easy to suddenly find yourself with a slowing vehicle in front.

The next minor junction along, going westwards, has also had serious accidents, basically artics turning right out of the Foulshaw road to head east, and the trailer overhangs the westbound carriageway. The haulier who is based there has been told that their wagons should turn left and then turn round at the roundabout at the bottom of Lindale Hill.

When the Greenodd bypass opened there was a fatality at the junction with the Broughton/Coniston road within days. Within a couple of years they replaced the junction with a roundabout. Not sure why the highways authority haven't done the same at Gilpin Bridge.

but its a good bit of infrastructure.

Hope it stays that way, reported a totally overgrown shared use path alongside a bypass to the local council 6wks ago & they've done nothing about it apart from adding it to their "schedule" 🙄

Another crash at this junction this morning as I was heading over. Happened just before 0900. Looked like a car and a van on the Kendal bound carriageway, the drivers were out and talking so probably not serious though the driver of the BT/Openreach van was probably wondering what to tell his boss.

While everyone generally slowed down it didn't stop a numpty in a BMW estate from racing past at 70mph.