As far as I can see, the first mention of CVR is this:
The cockpit voice recorder got erased because they get overwritten every two hours and the pilots seem to have “forgotten” to turn it off when they landed.
Yes, it looks suspicious when devices that are supposed to record evidence get erased. Then pilots jumped in and said that pilots don't care about CVRs. Then I pointed out that U.S. pilots' unions care a lot about CVRs. When your union's position is that data should not be collected, then data gets deleted after an incident, it's really not a good look. If the best comeback you can think of is, "But you're not a pilot," you've lost on the facts.
Yes, it looks suspicious when devices that are supposed to record evidence get erased.
What do you suspect?
What do you suspect?
I suspect that pilots' unions have refused to permit a system where recording are systematically retained. I suspect they did this purely to protect the legal interests of their members. I suspect that union officials did this will full awareness that this would make investigations of incidents more difficult and that pilots are smart enough to understand how the recording system works and that they understand how to erase data with plausible deniability (let's face it, if they can't figure that out, they aren't smart enough to be a pilot.)
What I believe is that this is not a good way to make public policy. Boeing is a train wreck because they were allowed to self-regulate. Unions are arguing that they should have a veto over safety regulations. It's a systemic problem, it's bigger than than just one flaw on one plane.
Can you actually point out where I’ve attacked pilots and unions?
I love this demand whilst ignoring my request for you to back up your insane strawman claims about "Saying that non-pilots have no right to question pilots ".
However since I am stupid enough to try and play fair with someone who clearly has no interest in anything other than seagull chess I would point out the fact you started off by immediately blaming the pilots with "seem to have “forgotten” to turn it off when they landed.". What is that other than an inane attack?
Can you actually point out where I’ve attacked pilots and unions?
You continually infer that pilots and unions are obfuscating the truth by either direct action “forgetting to turn off” or opposition to change.
You continue to infer that the motive of unions in the 2.5h CVR recording is hide foul play. I think that the unions fight to keep the 2.5h window as it makes their legal job potentially easier in the event of an incident.
You continue to conflate pilots and unions and infer they have a joint interest in hiding CVR data.
Your keep adding disconnected things together to paint a picture of malfeasance, but in reality, they’re more likely to be just disconnected events tied together by time.
All of this sounds aggressive to me.
Don’t even get me started on your assessment of the engineering and avionics.
I suspect that pilots’ unions have refused to permit a system where recording are systematically retained.
Oh - so nothing specific to Flight 1282.
It does make me wonder why he is so anxious to try and focus on the pilots vs the fact Boeings build quality seems rather poor in recent years.
I'm more interested in what he's covered up.
No one is that loudly adamant about something and that everyone is at it, without being at it themselves.
Thols2
It’s basically the first rule of being involved in a ****up.
I've never attacked pilots or unions. Pilots are human, they make mistakes, but systemic mistakes are because of management. Read about the drunk JAL pilot and spot the management failures. Sure, he was individually responsible, but that has management failure written all over it.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46231780
I've said this over and over again. Unions have an important role, I support them, but they aren't public safety regulators. Their role is to protect the interests of their members. They should not have a veto over public safety issues. That's not attacking unions, it's pointing out that their priority isn't public safety. That's not their job, public safety is the job of public safety regulators.
I’ve never attacked pilots or unions.
saying that repeatedly doesn't change the evidence of your accusations throughout this thread.
I’ve never attacked pilots or unions.
I think you have spend 9 pages pretty consistently saying that either the pilots deleted the data or the union trains them to delete the data... that seems like an unsubstantiated attack to me!
They should not have a veto over public safety issues.
What makes you so sure that they do? Have the FAA said "we would have made this a 25h rule, but the union don't like it?" or are they just a particularly easy to find example of someone that opposes it? e.g. would airlines, and/or aircraft manufacturers quite like to keep the status quo too? Because this way they can always blame the pilot!
I suspect that union officials did this will full awareness that this would make investigations of incidents more difficult and that pilots are smart enough to understand how the recording system works and that they understand how to erase data with plausible deniability (let’s face it, if they can’t figure that out, they aren’t smart enough to be a pilot.)
But you know the NTSB said that the engineer was responsible for "stopping the tape" not the pilot... so that makes it a bit of an odd argument that either pilots could erase the data (because as soon as the engineer boards and pulls the plug it would stop overwriting). But don't let the facts get in the way of arguing with yourself.
They should not have a veto over public safety issues.
What makes you so sure that they do? Have the FAA said “we would have made this a 25h rule, but the union don’t like it?”
It's their publicly stated policy. U.S. aircraft have a two-hour CVR limit because unions have vetoed a 25 hour limit. It's a matter of public record. Go ask some unions about it if you don't believe me.
https://twitter.com/AtlasAirPilots/status/1745147320872939827
https://twitter.com/Shane_White75/status/1745091688815554649
But you know the NTSB said that the engineer was responsible for “stopping the tape” not the pilot
The problem wasn't stopping the tape, it was leaving the tape running. If you leave the tape running, it erases itself after two hours. If the engineer stopped the tape, he attempted to preserve the recording, not delete it. If the pilot left the tape running, that was the action that caused the data loss. Probably a mistake, those jetplanes are complicated and you can't expect pilots to remember to turn the ignition key off when they park them.
Jesus – I’ll leave you to it.
That's always a good strategy when the facts are against you.
Oo oo, I've got an incontrovertible fact:
You continually infer
Nope. He implies - the reader infers.
That's it. Back to pointless arguing. Oh and Thols2, thanks for ruining an informative thread by being soooo STW. Presumably you've been busy over the New Year polishing TJ's old crown...
But we’ve been stuck talking about the same tiny part of that picture for at least 4 pages and it’s not even directly relevant to these issues with Boeing
Time to stop feeding the troll?
Presumably you’ve been busy over the New Year polishing TJ’s old crown…
Oh, are they not the same person?
Mods - can we get a downvote button that makes some comments disappear when they reach a certain threshold please.
This topic is utterly crap now
It’s their publicly stated policy. U.S. aircraft have a two-hour CVR limit because unions have vetoed a 25 hour limit. It’s a matter of public record. Go ask some unions about it if you don’t believe me.
But that wasn't the question I asked. I asked what makes you think they have a veto not what makes you think they are strongly opposed to it. I'm strongly opposed to a Tory government but I don't (sadly) have a veto.
The problem wasn’t stopping the tape, it was leaving the tape running. If you leave the tape running, it erases itself after two hours. If the engineer stopped the tape, he attempted to preserve the recording, not delete it. If the pilot left the tape running, that was the action that caused the data loss. Probably a mistake, those jetplanes are complicated and you can’t expect pilots to remember to turn the ignition key off when they park them.
You can keep ignoring the facts if you want - but the pilots didn't forget to turn anything off. The NTSB have been crystal clear it was the maintenance engineers' responsibility to shut down the CVR; by the time they got to that task most of the recording had overwritten, no fault is suggested on anyone's part. Nobody here is arguing that a longer recording time would prevent that. The only person in the world who seems to find this hard to understand is you. Your patronising and sarcastic last two sentences are yet more insinuation that there was some intentional wrongdoing by the pilots, but still you insist you've not attacked them. By the way commercial aircraft don't have an ignition key - I wouldn't want you to look ridiculous!
The post office are looking for people with zero listening skills, an unwillingness to consider alternative viewpoints, and the ability to grind others down by talking nonsense and insisting they are right in the face of all evidence to the contrary. You might want to apply.
Nope. He implies – the reader infers.
Does he? I thought it was more than an implication - almost a direct statement and that he was inferring or drawing conclusions based on information presented to him. Interesting.
Finally, something useful 🙂
You only need look at the Post Office scandal to see how a large corporation will knowingly cover up and gaslight people. Not saying who’s right or wrong and it certainly adds to the debate when commercial pilots give their valuable opinions. However I agree the thread usefulness is probably waning a tad now.
I’d say the CVR issue is symptomatic of America generally. Litigation and profit.
In the UK, BALPA is a professional organisation first, union second. We are proud of our safety record and are at the forefront of human factors issues in safety critical industries. TBH it looks now like you are just trolling as your arguments change as you are called out & you are twisting what we say to suit your narrative.
I posted on this thread to try and provide some insight into our world and possible reasons/causes, but quite frankly I shan’t bother any more. I’ve just spent 2 long days flying in some pretty challenging conditions and have better things to do.
Over and Out.
I posted on this thread to try and provide some insight into our world and possible reasons/causes, but quite frankly I shan’t bother any more
I think most people who have read it appreciate the insight with just one notable exception.
