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When people come on here and start wanting to call the shots about who's allowed to say what and banning etc always reflects a basic weakness in their argument. Who was that Labour politician who said 'it's true but you can't say it' ?
I do wonder whether the Tories and Labour leadership want to pledge their full support for state terrorism but are more than a little anxiouis about an international refugee crisis. A couple of million Palestinians needing a refuge would fill them with horror.
@colournoise – if you’ve not seen it then Once Upon a Time in Northern Ireland is well worth a viewing
Saw the first couple but then it drifted out of my consciousness. Didn't see Keilty pop up but was vaguely aware of his personal experience.
Probably ought to go back and watch the rest...
Not exactly very brave of Varadkar to make moderate comments against Israel in a country that is wildly pro-Palestinian (for obvious historical reasons).
I think an issue that is overlooked in the discussion of the military action (ground invasion now?) of Gaza is that of the hostages. It is inconceivable that Israel would allow the hostages to remain in Gaza, especially given the barbarity that has been visited upon them already.
Meanwhile, it might speak to my mealy-mouthed despicable centrism, but the last couple of episodes of The Rest Is Politics podcast have been interesting on this topic. Stewart's summary if the history may be useful to those looking for a reasonably balanced introduction (although personally I think he would have done better to mention the Jews have been continuously present in Palestine for 2000+ years, albeit in different numbers). And the Yuval Hariri interview was striking for its observation that Palestinians and Israelis alike are in a state of such shock and despair that they are incapable of conceptualising the pain of others.
Hamas seems to be succeeding in one of its goals…
“Until Iran-backed Hamas sparked a war on Oct. 7 by launching a devastating attack on Israel, both Israeli and Saudi leaders had been saying they were moving steadily towards a deal that could have reshaped the Middle East”
Interesting piece in Vanity Fair suggests that, far from harming Saudi, MBS will be ecstatic at this turn of events. He has laundered his Khashoggi reputation by talking about recognition with Israel - and now he doesn't even have to bother doing it. Back of the (sportswashed) net!
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/10/saudi-israeli-deal-likely-off-mbs
Who was that Labour politician who said ‘it’s true but you can’t say it’ ?
Sounds like mid-career Ken Livingstone...
And as for the link you posted, I don’t need to lectured by a Tory politician about what constitutes racism.
The definition quoted comes from elsewhere than the Tory party being the EU approved definition formed with input from the IHRA. I am not aware if it is anything other than policy in the UK - is it enshrined in law / tested in prosecutions?
The definition also states, before listing examples “could, taking into account the overall context, include” so one could argue the wider context here allows the criticism - so even the IHRA don’t state they are blanket 100% definitions of anti-semitisn.
A lot of people don’t agree with the definition as they feel it is misused to protect Israel from criticism and there are alternative definitions such as
https://jerusalemdeclaration.org
On a more positive note my cousin who lives in Israel has been contacted by the British embassy so hopefully she, and her two young children, will be able to get out sooner than expected.
You’re arguing with the internationally accepted definition of anti-semitism. But since you need help:
https://www.state.gov/defining-antisemitism/
But since you need help
It's not me that needs help, you chose the link yourself.
I opened the link, saw a photo of a grinning Eric Pickles, and immediately closed it.
Choose your links more carefully. As I said, I don't need a Tory politician to tell me what racism is. Especially one found guilty of illegal discrimination against gypsies.
You’re arguing with the internationally accepted definition of anti-semitism.
By some, but nevertheless a fair point. However as I said previously, Israel and its supporters have been massively successful in deflecting and suppressing criticism of Israel.
It really is time to fight back. If Israel behaves like a far-right racist government then it should be called out.
it’s on the government website. Here’s another.
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/uk-governments-adoption-of-the-ihra-definition-of-antisemitism/
That definition of anti semitism is deliberately drawn so that israeli politicians can call any critism of isreal as anti semitic. A deliberate attempt to avoid scrutiny.
Any criticism of isreal is automatically labelled anti semitic even if isreal is in breach of international law and un resolutions.
it’s on the government website. Here’s another.
Yes a Tory government website.
Are you seriously suggesting that the Tories should be the judges of what is racist?
What is the Home Secretary's, Suella Braverman, veiws on racism/anti-semitism? Since apparently they matter.
@benos - I'm not going to be told what I'm allowed to think about the actions of a government on the pretext that if I think that way someone has defined me as an anti-semite.
The IHRA antisemitism definitions are designed to stifle legitimate criticism of a government and I will have no truck with them.
If the government of Israel does stuff that prompts people to make parallel associations with horrendous nazi actions then that's on Israel. Coming up with a "rule" that says "you can't draw that parallel because that makes you antisemitic" is a crock that's designed to deflect blame from a disgusting state.
If the government of Israel doesn't want it's actions compared to the actions of the nazis, then it needs to stop acting like the nazis - and free the two million people it's locked in a concentration camp.
That's not antisemitic. That criticism would apply to any government that acts that way.
Having re-read it, I now understand what you mean. Although I read it as a analogy for uprising in general, rather than considering who was referenced. In the context of the rest of that post I think it was an ill chosen analogy rather than deliberate. I could be wrong of course, which makes it very different.
As for the getting a grip. Insults really help those that are trying to educate themselves.
Will just stay ignorant in future then.
alpin +1
it’s antisemitic when you compare them to the Nazis
Nah it's really not. But if you want to call it that, go for it.
Having spent a great amount of my time involved in military action the shit they're doing is immoral and illegal and if me and my colleagues had done similar the comparisons would also be made.
I have read the definition.
Its clearly contrived to make it easy for Israeli politicians to divert criticism as antisemitic indeed its their standard tactic. Open your eyes man!
Israels treatment of the palestinians is criminal. Stating that does not make you an antisemite no matter how much the Israeli politicians want to claim that it does
To draw the parallels between the warsaw ghetto and the gazan ghetto does not make you antisemetic.
When you point out the Isrealis are acting like nazis does not make you antisemetic if it is true
Isreali is not a synonym for jewish
Just heard an interview with an Israeli nutter saying that the solution for Gaza civilians is a tent city in the Sinai desert. Really, when you get to this level of depravity all hope is lost.
No @tjagain, it’s antisemitic when you compare them to the Nazis.
As pointed out the definition states, before listing examples, “could, taking into account the overall context, include” so one could argue the wider context of Israeli military action against civilians here allows the criticism – so even the IHRA don’t state they are blanket 100% definitions of anti-semitisn. Is reading the definition before commenting too much to ask?
Its clearly contrived to make it easy for Israeli politicians to divert criticism as antisemitic indeed its their standard tactic. Open your eyes man!
You just need to not compare them to the Nazis. Is that so hard? Can you really not image other ways to criticise them?
Are you quite sure it’s ok to compare Hamas’ slaughter of Jews on Saturday to the Warsaw Ghetto Jews trying to avoid the gas chambers?
there are quite a few parallels with the ANC's attitude and actions in South Africa during the 1960s and 70s. The fact that Israel chooses not to notice this is baffling to me. If it does notice it and yet continues along its path then more fool then.
All fixed... And SUCH a better reflection on the current Israeli government...
(Interestingly, searching up ANC action under Apartheid also returned quite a few hits directly about the current Gaza situation)
@colournoise Thank you. So easy! Simply anything but those who tried to exterminate them.
There’s probably a thousand different comparisons you could make while legitimately criticising Israel.
You know a thousand different examples of an occupying army forcing an ethnic group to live in a ghetto?
Can you name 3 or 4?
I was just reading this after viewing this thread - Benos your one angry person wow.
Possibly you missed my point…
No, you missed mine. Your comparison isn’t antisemitic and has merit too.
Posted without comment.
Seems to me there is no PID of targets going on.
Are there even targeting parameters that attempt to differentiate between legitimate targets and civilians?
I know Hamas gave no ****s in this regard, but as an organised, disciplined military force you don't get to play by the same rules.
You just need to not compare them to the Nazis. Is that so hard? Can you really not image other ways to criticise them?
When they are behaving like nazis................ 'anyway its not the only thing in that definition that they claim is antisemitism and there is no doubt at all the isreali government are fascists
Are you quite sure it’s ok to compare Hamas’ slaughter of Jews on Saturday to the Warsaw Ghetto Jews trying to avoid the gas chambers?
Not at all- but I never claimed that. Classic copying of Israeli government propaganda to shut down debate and criticism.
Yes parallels with apartheid South africa are also legitimate.
What is Israel's end game with respect to Gaza?
They are clearly planning to force the Palestinian population into an even smaller area but then what happens to the North? Is it simply absorbed into Israel (once the ruble has been cleared away)? Surely they won't say, 'OK, Hamas is all dead. You can all come back now.'
What happens if Israel is successful in clearing the North of Palestinians? Does the entire Gaza population now have to make do with an even smaller prison than they had before? It hardly seems possible.
Or is the plan to create a humanitarian emergency on such a scale that the international community is forced to open the Egyptian border and then deal with the refugees however they see fit? Then Israel closes the border and Gaza simply becomes part of Israel (once the rubble is cleared).
I'm genuinely struggling to see what Israel are trying to accomplish other than either partial or complete ethnic cleansing of Gaza.
I'm taking a group of local young people to the National Holocaust Centre next month in response to this past week. I want to provide them with skills and knowledge to assist their debating the current issue.
As part of the young people's learning the Holocaust Centre facilitators will help lead a discussion on conditions for genocide and use several examples. This will include examples of the Nazis and compare those to others including Cambodia, Rwanda, and Israel - Palestine.
On that basis, contextually I'm presuming that there can be discussions assessing the historical and current similarities / differences. Otherwise by the literal definition that'd mean the amazing work of the UK Holocaust Centre would be anti-semitic which would clearly be a ludicrous accusation.
South Africa was super bad but how the Palestinians are being treated and slaughtered is on another level all on live TV.
Is reading the definition before commenting too much to ask?
Since you dont seem to have then I am not sure you can really criticise others for doing so.
You are confusing the definition with the examples. The latter of which are controversial when used as part of the definition. From memory even the person who wrote them isnt in favour of them being used as such.
SuperScale20
South Africa was super bad but how the Palestinians are being treated and slaughtered is on another level all on live TV.
THAT was my point.
And really interesting about the National Holocaust Centre...
Quick google, the LP politician was Angela Rayner.
You just need to not compare them to the Nazis. Is that so hard? Can you really not image other ways to criticise them?
I’ve read this entire thread and been following the news on the horrendous acts that both sides have and continue to commit. I feel I now need to post. The above is, quite frankly, horse shit. It is a completely valid comparison. The Israeli government are acting in a way that can very much be compared to the actions of the Nazi’s. That isn’t antisemitism it’s clear for all to see. You’re pretty much a lone voice on this for a reason.
It is an attempt to shut down any valid criticism of what the Israeli government is doing. That’s abhorrent and to hide behind the past and cry foul is despicable to say the least. The wholesale bombing of innocent men, women and children, cutting off power and resources to hospitals. What would you describe that as? Comparing directly to those that committed atrocities against them should make them stop, think and be utterly ashamed of what they are perpetrating. Definitions be damned
When they are behaving like nazis…………….
No, they’re really not.
Not at all- but I never claimed that. Classic copying of Israeli government propaganda to shut down debate and criticism.
That was Alpin’s comment that got several votes and no criticism (other than mine).
The last dozen or so posts contains wildly antisemitic statements. Absolutely outrageous to invoke Nazism and concentration camps when criticising the recent actions. If the above is allowed to stand this place has lost the plot.
Part of what has outraged Israelis so much is that the systematic house by house extermination of families and communities is, for them, a clear parallel with the atrocities in Europe. They truly believe they are fighting for their survival. Lots of people are going to die and it's a tragedy.
There is not a moral equivalence between Hamas' need to exterminate Israel and the Jews and the tragedy of what's happening now
What is Israel’s end game with respect to Gaza?
Not sure, but their plans for the West Bank, which Hamas claim is the reason they launched their attack, appear to be on track.
The eventual annexation of the West Bank and the expulsions of 3 million Palestinians:
"Israeli Settlers Aren’t Pausing the Expulsion and Dispossession in the West Bank.
Israeli security forces neglected the defense of communities near the Gaza Strip because they have been preoccupied with defending the settlers in the West Bank, their land seizures, and their rites of stone and altar worshiping."
EDIT. Not helping.
They truly believe they are fighting for their survival.
By trapping a couple of million people in a small area so that they can be indiscriminately bombed? By cutting off power, supply lines and water for the same innocent people? What Hamas did is horrendous and barbaric and is rightly condemned by all. To not do the same for what the Israeali government and military are now doing to the innocents trapped in Gaza is inexcusable. To call out the parallels isn’t antisemitism. It’s just morally right.
Tomd - you've literally just compared the the Israeli experience last Saturday to that experienced during WW2.
The last dozen or so posts contains wildly antisemitic statements. Absolutely outrageous to invoke Nazism and concentration camps when criticising the recent actions. If the above is allowed to stand this place has lost the plot.
The comparison that kicked all this off was between the Warsaw ghettos and Gaza. No one other than people outraged by this comparison have mentioned concentration camps.
@colournoise that was well covered by the Economist article I posted.
edit: I think you removed that comment so this may not make sense now. But I’ll leave it here anyway.
> https://web.archive.org/web20230727094205/https://www.economist.com/bagehots-notebook/2016/04/28/guest-post-why-comparing-israel-to-the-nazis-is-always-anti-semitic <
“There are three main reasons why introducing Hitler into debates about Israel should be considered anti-Semitic. First, and most obviously, even in the worst possible interpretation of what Israel has done to the Palestinians, it does not remotely resemble what the Nazis did to the Jews. The scale and purpose are incomparably different, in ways so glaring that they ought not to need spelling out. Israel’s abuses against the Palestinians occur within a territorial and political conflict, albeit one in which, unquestionably, great and indefensible wrongs have been done; the Holocaust was an attempt at ethnic annihilation in which 6m people were murdered. I once heard a well-educated man who should have known better lament the fact that, after what happened to them during the second world war, the Jews have gone on more or less to do the same thing to the Palestinians, “only without all the killing.” The industrialised killing, however, was not an incidental part of it. To pretend an equivalence grotesquely exaggerates Israel’s guilt and renders the crimes of Nazism routine.”
Part of what has outraged Israelis so much is that the systematic house by house extermination of families and communities is
I am not sure why you focus on Israeli outrage. Do you think that non-Israelis were not also outraged?
I reckon it is safe to say that the world was outraged.
I think it is also safe to say that the world has been outraged by Israeli bombing, shelling, and missile strikes, on house after house and extermining, as you call it, entire families.
Are you not outraged by Israeli forces committing war crimes such as hitting civilian targets and "collective punishment" (a nazi tactic in occupied territories)?
If not why not?
Just out of interest, is anyone prepared to argue against the conclusion that we are about to see the ethnic cleansing of Northern Gaza?
I really don't see any Palestinians being allowed to live there again if Israel does successfully take it.
If not why not?
Because the cloak of perma-victim shields them from any self reflection on their behaviour?
I'm all for turning Hamas fighters heads into fruit bowls, but I draw the line at civilians copping the fallout from their regimes behaviour.
The reason Israel continues their chosen COA is they have tacit, and in some cases explicit approval from other nations.
The hypocrisy is that same courtesy would not be extended to other nations though. Anyone mounting a stand of defence for either side is morally bankrupt. They are both acting in an inexcusable manner, but only one is being held accountable.
Israel as a nation is ticking off the 'how to do a war crimes' list like a boss and everyone seems okay with it.
What is Israel’s end game with respect to Gaza?
Probably one of two options. 1. they're going to compact the 2+m residents into a much smaller area, forcing as many as they can to leave due to it being so overcrowded they have no option, or 2. are going to continue to push the population south, then south again and get them over the border into Egypt.
Then fully absorb the Gaza strip into Israel. I believe it is Israel's goal to completely eradicate the Palestinian population by forcing them out. and as above then call the entire country Israel. Palestine will cease to exist.
.
As to the hostages, I truly don't think Israel gives a damn if they live or die.
“There are three main reasons why introducing Hitler into debates about Israel should be considered anti-Semitic.
No one has introduced Hitler into the debate, apart from you now.
There are parallels between the tactics that the Nazis used in the occupied territories and the tactics of the Israelis have used in the occupied territories.
Such as collective punishment, forcing an ethnic minority into a ghetto, moving their own civilians into occupied territories, and subjecting the conquered civilians to military law and court marshalls.
Not only that. The innocent people of Palestine are being held accountable for the actions whilst the Israeli government s being more or less given permission by some of the most powerful nations on Earth to do as they please. There are no winners here, just innocent victims and people who can’t learn from their own history on both sides. Two sets of ****ing nutters with a host of innocents trapped between them.
The comparison that kicked all this off was between the Warsaw ghettos and Gaza.
To be specific, it was the comparison of the Hamas’ attack on civilians with the Warsaw Ghetto uprising against SS soldiers taking Jews to extermination.
alpin’s post is long but I don’t think I misread it
Are you not outraged by Israeli forces committing war crimes such as hitting civilian targets and “collective punishment” (a nazi tactic in occupied territories)?
it's an absolute horror show and restraint is needed. But I'm under no ilusion that Israel faces an existential threat having had various other countries and regimes try and wipe them off the face of the earth several times. it's beyond tragic the whole situation but I can't join in the antisemitic group session that's kicked off in here, it's a disgrace. Feels like a Corbyn era labour branch meeting.
Tomd - you claim a load of antisemitic posts. Please show them and explain why. There has not been a single one as I can see unless you equate any critism of Isreal as antisemitic
Because the cloak of perma-victim shields them from any self reflection on their behaviour?
Who is "them"? Who are you talking about here?
Just heard from a local British - Israeli local builder my MIL has. He was conscripted into the IDF at 18 and was required to be involved in various ground operations during his service.
He was absolutely seething earlier this morning with Netanyahu in the conversation, completely seething. He said the entire situation leading up to and being undertaken now is Netanyahu's complete and utter failure to descalate over 15 years.
His son, still in Israel has just been called up to IDF reservists. The dad we know said that should anything happen in Gaza to his son he will hold Netanyuhu entirely culpable.
Its just one voice and perspective but its important to hear a range of Israeli views on this.
Both parties.
But in relation to military action, Israel have stepped beyond the line of what I would expect of an organised, disciplined fighting force.
I appreciate the bulk of the responsibility of this falls to their elected leaders and generals.
As to the hostages, I truly don’t think Israel gives a damn if they live or die.
Exceptionally poor take. Israel works on a "no man left behind" principle, my friend has been on the front line attempting to rescue them. Dealing with booby-trapped houses whilst under live fire, eventually getting into them only to witness the unfathomable atrocities committed inside those houses is not the action of a state that doesn't care about hostages. And my friend is not going to come out of this the same person, if he comes out at all.
Its just one voice and perspective but its important to hear a range of Israeli views on this.
It is the overriding view of the Israelis I spoke to, both called up and those still at home. The feeling is that Netanyahu should be finished after this.
@TheFlyingOx I have a family member who was one those “no man left behind”, rescued at great risk.
It is the overriding view of the Israelis I spoke to, both called up and those still at home. The feeling is that Netanyahu should be finished after this.
This is the feeling in my family too. They’re terrified and appalled.
Are you not outraged by Israeli forces committing war crimes such as hitting civilian targets and “collective punishment” (a nazi tactic in occupied territories)?
it’s an absolute horror show and restraint is needed. But I’m under no ilusion that Israel faces an existential threat having .....
So basically you are justifying it.
People who are accused of supporting/carrying out atrocities usually try to justify it.
The idea that one of the most powerful nations on earth is facing an "existential threat" from the mostly unarmed people of Gaza, whose water, electricity, food, and all other supplies, Israel totally controls, is obviously total nonsense.
Israel is not committing war crimes in Gaza because it needs to for its very survival. It is doing so because it wants to.
Anyone suitably outraged by what they've read here reported anything to the mods? That would seem the fairest way in the context of STW to determine what is or isn't OK?
I'm sure Mark and the crew would not tolerate STW appearing to condone anti-semitism on the forum.
It's outrageous tbh but I'm not surprised it's fashionable and normal in certain groups, particularly up here.
Casual antisemitism might be normal for you in your circle but I know it when I see it.
to question the actions of the Israeli government is not antisemitism, casual or otherwise. They attempt to hide behind it to excuse their actions.
It’s outrageous tbh but I’m not surprised it’s fashionable and normal in certain groups, particularly up here.
What on Earth are you going on about? Where’s up here? Go ahead and quote a single post that is antisemtic.
thoguhtful and articulate guy - also laying the blame at Netanyahu's feet for a) dividing Israel, b) spending 14 years escalating the situation
to question the actions of the Israeli government is not antisemitism, casual or otherwise. They attempt to hide behind it to excuse their actions.
Agreed, although if you're trying to do it do you think it would be possible to find an analogy from 10,000+ years of human history that wasn't that one?
Given Russia has just levelled several cities in Ukraine, would that not seem like a better analogy? Or Syria over the past few years? Why go for that one?
Casual antisemitism might be normal for you in your circle but I know it when I see it.
Like it or not, the Israeli governments actions towards the Palestinians do have parallels with various acts of ethnic cleansing and genocide. Pointing out parallels is how we avoid the same situations arising again and again.
Alpin's post might not have been appropriate for various reasons. Pointing out those reasons and why you don't think the parallel is valid is absolutely fine. Shutting down the debate by saying, 'Antisemitic!' just makes it sound like you don't want the actions of the Israeli government questioned. Which, given the fact they are currently murdering civilians by the hundreds and seem to be about the ethnically cleanse Gaza isn't really OK.
Someone saying, 'Israelis are Nazis' would be quite rightly called antisemitic. There's no attempt to draw a parallel, it's just abuse.
a couple of the most egregious ones but tbh I think it's normal sadly.
@benos - I'm sorry to read that a family member of yours was taken as part of the hostage crisis. Wishing them the best recovery from what I can't begin to imagine.
Given Russia has just levelled several cities in Ukraine, would that not seem like a better analogy? Or Syria over the past few years? Why go for that one?
because you would like to think that one, from all of them, would make those in power feel ashamed of their actions. There are parallels whether you like it or not. Outlining the fact is valid. To claim otherwise and call foul is rather pathetic. This isn’t about Jewish people, it’s about the Israeli government and military. They aren’t the same thing.
Weird.
Mods. Have I had a post deleted? Or did I just not manage to click 'submit'?
(was nothing inflammatory at all - just asking tomd whether he'd reported any posts)
Thank you @bennyboy1, but it was actually many years ago now. I should’ve made that clear given the current situation.
I was just echoing TheFlyingOx’s comment about the “no man left behind” principle.
the “no man left behind” principle.
It's not unique, most nations, especially western ones don't tend to leave service people or citizens in the hands of others.
Israel is carrying out war crimes as we speak and to say so isn’t antisemitism it is stating fact.
The tactic appears to be to clear Gaza of both Palestinians and Hamas with a view to provide better security and revenge for being attacked but the idea Israel is in an existential fight is ludicrous.
Both Israel and Hamas must be widely condemned and some form of peace plan formulated otherwise this is going to go on and on.
TJ you want me to explain to you why repeated and casual references to Nazism in this context are antisemitic? You’re having a laugh right? Nazism is such a loaded term that involves the systematic manufacturing of grievances against the Jews right through to the attempt at industrialised eradication. There are some attempts above to salami slice out particular elements and apply those to this situation but that’s a ridiculous thing to do with a term that’s so loaded in this context.
Casual antisemitism might be normal for you in your circle but I know it when I see it.
so you cannot explain but instead call me and my friends antisemetic? You just make my point for me
So yes - I want you to explain why you make such vile slurs at people and to justify the slurs youmake
Or is the plan to create a humanitarian emergency on such a scale that the international community is forced to open the Egyptian border and then deal with the refugees however they see fit? Then Israel closes the border and Gaza simply becomes part of Israel (once the rubble is cleared).
This is my guess, based on the intereview I mentioned above.
Given Russia has just levelled several cities in Ukraine, would that not seem like a better analogy? Or Syria over the past few years? Why go for that one?
Because Alpin was making a comparison regarding an ethic group being forced into a ghetto by an occupying power.
Which then resulted in wild allegations of anti-semitism.
Where are the comparisons with Russia and Syria? They are not obvious.
I’m sure it isn’t unique, mando, but it was a response to this comment:
As to the hostages, I truly don’t think Israel gives a damn if they live or die.
He was absolutely seething earlier this morning with Netanyahu in the conversation, completely seething. He said the entire situation leading up to and being undertaken now is Netanyahu’s complete and utter failure to descalate over 15 years.
Reassuring to hear, but - as people keep reminding us - Israel is a democracy, so we must assume that this appalling affair reflects the wishes of the Israeli people.
Its a pseudo democracy. some folk don't get to vote and they tend to have far right parties holding the balance of power so wielding undue power
Because Alpin was making a comparison regarding an ethic group being forced into a ghetto by an occupying power.
No, Ernie. The comparison was the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising (against the SS taking them to the death camps) and the attack on Saturday, with specific mention of the festival were so many were raped and murdered.