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Hi Dyna-Ti.
Thanks for the welcome, I have mostly been a lurker!
I think the problem with that argument is that you are falling into the trap of Hamas = the Palestinian people. That is a dangerous road to go down and actually many in the West Bank, whilst being sympathetic to Hamas - would not state that Hamas represents them but Fatah's Palestinian Authority. Who are somewhat more pragmatic.
Fatah/The PA will be central to any peace negotiations and it's important that Israel keeps back channel dialogue open with them during this conflict.
Chevychase, yours is the opinion of a a privileged European - the middle east doesn't do secularism - most of the planet doesn't. Secularist pan Arab nationalism died a long time ago in a galaxy far far away - maybe in 50-100 years after the failure of political Islam it can be revived.
It's an idea that is as ill thought out as introducing democracy to Iraq. There is zero pragmatism in your argument, any one state solution will just lead to further expulsions, pogroms and bloodshed given the almost century old deep seated grievances.
Neither the Palestinians nor Israelis can expect others to protect them.
We4ll Israel has the US, and the UK, and maybe not so much the EU but on the other hand Palestinians have nobody. in that scenario that is. Israel has the vast majority of the land with their 7 million population spread well out, and the Palestinians hemmed in to a much smaller area, they also have a powerful military with all latest toys.
I think the problem with that argument is that you are falling into the trap of Hamas = the Palestinian people
Sorry I disagree. I know Hamas arent the Palestinian people and have said so throughout this thread. Its the same point that was made that the Tories arent the British people.
Hamas come from the Palestinian people mostly but their rise was an inevitability due to the oppressive regime of Israel.
I think we've seen that across time, more recently in South Africa with the formation of the ANC or even in Ireland with the IRA. Where there is oppression, an armed struggle arises.
Is Hamas that different to the Jewish Military Union ?
I think that comparison is a bit mad.
The Jewish Military Union didn't advocate for the genocide of Germans, in fact there were only a handful of Jews that did - the Nakam - who would be a much closer fit to Hamas. No one thought the Nakam were sensible or fit to be in a leadership position of the post-war Jewish diaspora.
I wonder if Chevychase has ever tried to be an ethnic minority, like a Baha’i, Druze or Christian in a Muslim country.
There's an interesting book by William Dalrymple (forget the title) about Christians in the Middle East. For a long time Iraq was one of the most accepting of countries. And Israel one of the least, eg systematically destroying Christian relics.
Yes - the baathists in Iraq and Syria were opposed to political Islam.
We bombed them and then tried to install secularist democracy.
Thanks for the welcome, I have mostly been a lurker!
You have been mostly lurking since you joined on Monday?
There’s an interesting book by William Dalrymple (forget the title) about Christians in the Middle East.
You're probably thinking of From the Holy Mountain. A great book. It's only from 1997 but really feels like a different age.
Chevychase, yours is the opinion of a a privileged European – the middle east doesn’t do secularism
And Israel can't be expected to have the same values as European countries?
Sure they can....
There’s an interesting book by William Dalrymple (forget the title) about Christians in the Middle East. For a long time Iraq was one of the most accepting of countries. And Israel one of the least, eg systematically destroying Christian relics.
The book is called From The Holy Mountain. I have it on a shelf somewhere. The stuff in bold is a bold assertion.
@dancingkitty:
the middle east doesn’t do secularism – most of the planet doesn’t
Yes. And look at the disgusting mess it's in. The middle east therefore needs to progress rather than mire itself in the disgusting pit of religious bigotry that the "privileged europeans" have managed to largely drag themselves out of, don't you think?
Yours is an argument for maintaining a medievel status quo. The sort of status quo that results in two million people being the subject of collective punishment from a criminal government propped up by the privileged west.
If Israel needs that propping up, the privileged west needs to demand the separation of church and state - instead of the continuing primacy of idiotic religious bigotry. And then the government can get on with governing for all.
If Israel needs that propping up, the privileged west needs to demand the separation of church and state
What is the established church in Israel?
Do you believe the Jews are just a bunch of people that have the same religion? Like Jehovahs Witnesses or Buddhists?
It’s an idea that is as ill thought out as introducing democracy to Iraq.
The problem was not trying to introduce democracy - the problem was trying to impose it from the outside using a bunch of stooges and having wilfully destroyed the institutions of the Iraqi administrative state. But that is another story.
And Israel can’t be expected to have the same values as European countries?
Sure they can….
No it can't, when none of the region ascribes to secularism. It would pose a security threat to Israel.
@Chevychase - the west props up plenty of countries that are not secularist. You are not being rational here but displaying the cultural arrogance of the early 2000s west, you cannot enforce secularism on the middle east - either on Jewish, Christian or Muslim populations. It doesn't work and any attempt to do this will limit western voices in the region will not be heard.
At the end of the day Israel has played it's cards well with Russia, India China - and could quite easily replace American support should it require. It's not 1967 anymore.
The problem was not trying to introduce democracy – the problem was trying to impose it from the outside using a bunch of stooges and having wilfully destroyed the institutions of the Iraqi administrative state.
No, the problem was we removed the last link to secularist Arab nationalism and upon removing them - unlike in Germany where we graded Nazis and their sympathisers using a 5 tier classification method and then ruthlessly denazified the country by levelling sanctions based on the classification of the individual.....we just let the majority of baathist leadership swan off into the distance to come back and haunt us or terrorise other Iraqi political players.
On top of that, we upset most of the other regional players.
@dancingkitty said: Thanks for the welcome, I have mostly been a lurker!
There’s something deeply suspicious about a brand new account diving right into one of the most contentious, political, off-topic threads on this forum.
@dancingkitty, you joined the forum 3 days ago and this is the only thread you've posted on. Forgive my scepticism, but we've had similar posters appear before and suddenly become prolific on political or other contentious threads who have turned out to be AI programs. What brought you to stw specifically?
No it can’t, when none of the region ascribes to secularism. It would pose a security threat to Israel.
Nonsense.
It doesn't need the "rest of the region" to ascribe to secularism. Israel needs fixing. Pointing at other countries and going "they're the same" does nothing to advance that.
That's the sort of bull that was spouted when we were trying to end apartheid in South Africa. But at least in SA they couldn't just turn off all the water on all the blacks like the Israeli government has decided to do.
Secularism is necessary advancement. If Israel wants to be anything other than a hateful pit of religious bigotry, then that's the way the cookie crumbles. The lack of secularism IS the security threat.
That's a piss poor deflection. Again. What brought you to stw specifically?
we just let the majority of baathist leadership swan off into the distance to come back and haunt us or terrorise other Iraqi political players.
Thats basically the exact opposite of what went wrong.
A whole lot of people were given the boot including losing pensions for being baathists from all parts of the public service including the military.
It was also done incompetently so those being sacked could take home stuff from work such as computers, photos of them with Saddam or maybe an AK-47 or two.
Your description of de-nazification is also rather simplistic and seems to be more the US model than British who pretty much ignored the low level workers.
A whole lot of people were given the boot including losing pensions for being baathists from all parts of the public service including the military.
Precisely. You either do it properly or not all and keep people in place.
And Israel can’t be expected to have the same values as European countries?
Sure they can….
No it can’t, when none of the region ascribes to secularism. It would pose a security threat to Israel.
Well I admire your honesty. It must have something to do with with all those Arabs in the region, they don't understand democracy and religious freedom.
So democracy and religious freedom would pose a "security threat to Israel"?
And any democracy and religious freedom should be strictly restricted for Israelis? See the above video.
The similarities between apartheid South Africa and apartheid Israel grow with everyday (although South African apartheid was incompatibly less brutal).
South Africa under apartheid had democracy, but only for very few people. They argued, much as the argument above, how many African countries are democratic? According to them black people don't understand democracy, they are too backward. I guess, like Arabs.
Few people like to admit it but racism goes to the very heart of the Palestinian question. Racism and injustice.
I'm not stating that Ernie, I'm starting that only a two state solution is currently feasible given the political climate in the whole region. You can't force people to live together under one state, the Balkans are a fine example of that.
Palestinians would be free to pursue democracy in a two state solutions, they would also be free not to.
No waterboarding yet. Curious about your riding history though as you haven't introduced yourself anywhere else on the forum. Satisfy my curiosity, where are you based and what trails do you ride? Maybe on a new thread so as not to derail this one.
Swinley, North Wales, Wharncouver and Greno mostly.
@dancingkitty
Bicycles, wood burners, porsches and networking with other dentists.When does the waterboarding start?
Ah, right. So you’re a sock-puppet account belonging to another poster.
Worst case scenario, the IDF go into northern Gaza and start a killing spree, would there actually be any consequences for Israel? Could any of Netanyahu's government actually be charged with war crimes?
I'm sure the mods can work that out looking at my IP.
Fair enough, last word on the matter but I won't be engaging with a poster whose motives (or even existence in a biological sense) I doubt.
Something really fishy about the syntax, deflection etc. We had exactly the same early on the Ukraine thread and it turned out to be a bot account. The writing style is strikingly similar.
Worst case scenario, the IDF go into northern Gaza and start a killing spree
The worst case scenario in the Middle East is that Iran, Saudia Arabia, the UAE, and Israel end up in a nuclear holocaust. TBF, the really worst case scenario is that it escalates into a global nuclear holocaust, but the prospect of a Middle-eastern one should chill anyone who has witnessed the death spiral we've seen this week, even if it's not literally the worst case scenario of how this ends.
defo bot lol.
<em style="box-sizing: border-box; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-color: rgb(59 130 246 / 0.5); --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000; caret-color: #000000; color: #000000; font-family: Roboto, 'Helvetica Neue', Arial, 'Noto Sans', sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, 'Segoe UI', 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Noto Color Emoji'; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); -webkit-text-size-adjust: 100%;">Burns documents and murders forum server hamster.
Free Member paranoia. Go on and signup (Mark really needs the coin) as that will really confuse them.
Ok it’s back open.
Thanks to our regular posters for behaving as we asked. The troll is gone but no doubt because they are sad and pathetic they’ll be back. Unless their mother takes them out for the day.
Which one? There are that many it's hard to keep up...
Surprisingly the FA and FIFA have been rather even handed in their messaging on this issue, although they are getting criticised from some for not unilaterally declaring support for Israel.
although they are getting criticised from some for not unilaterally declaring support for Israel.
by the very same people that blast the FA, EPL, and players for taking the knee to stand against prejudice
Surprisingly the FA and FIFA have been rather even handed in their messaging on this issue, although they are getting criticised from some for not unilaterally declaring support for Israel
The Rabbi (Alex Goldberg) who resigned from the FA multifaith taskforce, because they wouldn’t light Wembley up in the colours of the Israeli flag tonight, sounded like a petulant child on 5 Live this morning. He simply refused to accept why they wouldn’t do it simply because he’d demanded they do.
The players are wearing black armbands and there will be a minutes silence for ALL the victims of violence, but apparently that’s not enough. He clearly expected them to make a partisan statement on his behalf. That’s not the job of the FA.
He then said the FA had refused to engage with him. The FA later issued a statement saying they’d repeatedly tried to contact him on the issue but him who hadn’t engaged with them and had a public hissy fit instead
It is not like the world needs to hear more from Infantino on the subject of prejudice...
On the subject of the Israelis demanding all civilians leave Gaza City… does anyone actually believe for a minute that those Palestinians will ever be allowed to return to whatever is left standing once the IDF has levelled it?
Not a chance!
They must know full well that if they leave, they’re leaving for good
They must know full well that if they leave, they’re leaving for good
Which is supposed to be part of the reason Egypt doesnt want to open the border. They know it will be shut after them and the dispossessed will become Egypts problem.
Recent development- A car load of international journalists have been hit by an Israeli missile. They are calling it a deliberate and targeted attack. Reuters cameraman killed, 6 others rushed to hospital.
I think we would have to get clarification from ex military on stw but to hit a moving target, do they not have to lead it ?, which doesn't sound like an accidental hit.
Politician with principles (possibly)
An Taoiseach Leo Varadkar has criticised Israel for cutting off electricity and water supplies to Gaza, describing the actions as "not acceptable," and saying they may breach international law…"To me, it amounts to collective punishment. Cutting off power, cutting off fuel supplies and water supplies, that's not the way a respectable democratic state should conduct itself."<br /><br />
meanwhile uk manages to **** up evacuation flights, this country is a bit of a joke atm.
alicia kearns:
Be interesting if the comments made by Kearns and others gain traction - they need to.
I think we would have to get clarification from ex military on stw but to hit a moving target, do they not have to lead it ?, which doesn’t sound like an accidental hit.
Not necessarily, lead is used with crew served weapons or dumb munitions. But the Israelis have a multitude of guided precision munitions, so there's a few options at play:
A sensor/system error - this sometimes happens, but modern systems have a very low error rate.
A targeting error - it could have been mistaken for a target vehicle. It could have been confused with a similar vehicle but was not belonging to a 'hostile' entity. Sometimes there are errors when ground callsigns relay ID's to aviation platforms.
A deliberate act - speaks for itself.
Edit: just did some google-fu, one report suggests it was artillery fire, so there's a whole different ball game at play. They quite conceivably could have deliberatly or accidently wandered into an area fixed for firing.
Having seen 'war correspondents' in the wild, as sad as it is, they do dumb shit for a story. Tragic either way.
Journalists regularly die from Israeli fire. Almost one a year on average in the last couple of decades.
Edit; I think that total is just for those who have specifically died from gunfire, it doesn't include those that have died from shelling, missile strikes, etc.
I think at a species level it's probably best we pack our bags and shove off.
Indeed, that's pretty likely to happen this century and it's going to be entirely of our own making.
We'll never fight climate change, we are too busy fighting each other.
It's so bloody sad and depressing.
Where there's life old chap...
Hamas terrorists act; innocents are murdered and others die as collateral damage.
Israel claims the moral high ground and indiscriminately bombs Gaza then imposes morally indefensible sanctions by blocking aid, water, food, power.
Western political leaders, generally, support Israel; US promises military support.
Hyperbolic statements by high profile Jewish commentators are allowed without challenge in the media.
Palestinian voices are, generally, unheard.
The historic past is irrelevant as it does not reflect the present conflict.
There will be plenty of blame to share around if/when this comes anywhere near to a resolution.
There appears to be no attempt to restrain the Israeli bombing campaign - quite the opposite.
Let's hope that Hezbollah don't see this as an opportunity for them; that would escalate the situation several notches.
British involvement in the 1920s/3s/40s and then walking away when it was clear there was no easy solution is, IMO, a signficant contributory factor.
This, I fear, will get much worse before anything improves.
I was going to post this on the military aircraft activity thread, but it’s appropriate here. I was checking to see if any of our military are out there yet, as we’ve promised a couple of ships and P8 Poseidon surveillance aircraft are due to begin patrolling the area, and I noticed this Israeli C-130 had flown over 2000 nautical miles going back and forth, and wondered what it was up to. The Israeli air force don’t have Spectre gunships as far as I know, but perhaps it has sigint capabilities.
Interesting episode of the Newsagents this evening.
I didn't realise that Maitlis is Jewish. Think one of the other presenters is, too, but can't remember which. Pleasingly neither took the side of Israel and were highlighting the plight of the Palestinians.
Very balanced reporting from them over the last week.
That argument doesn’t hold water.
I think you misunderstood my point about history and why it has led to, and still shows the need for, a Jewish state. I love your idea of all states being secular, with those living in them free of persecution based on their religion or connections, but that has never been the case, and isn’t about to be. Where can Jews turn to if the country they live in turns against them? There is currently a long term answer to that question. One country that will always accept them. There are many others that also currently do… but the history lesson is how fast that can change.
I think at a species level it’s probably best we pack our bags and shove off.
The human species has completely screwed it up. It has never really been that great considering the intelligence the species has but the ridiculous things is does/causes and doesn't fix or feel needs to fix are getting worse and worse by the century. Nature has a way though and in a few hundred years it will probably be sorted out (largely by massive population reduction and forced lifestyle changes)
The Israel based issues will still be going strong at that point...
Where can Jews turn to if the country they live in turns against them?
The Deputy Mayor of Jerusalem who was interviewed by the BBC and is British born and bred didn't need to find somewhere to live because the UK had turned against her.
The world is full of countries where Jews are welcomed and can live in peace and without fear, they don't need to drive Palestinians from their homes.
There is no Jewish refugee crisis but there is a huge and constant Palestinian refugee crisis. Palestinians are born and die in refugee camps, and have been for decades.
Where can Palestinians turn to when the Western powers turn against them and drive them from their homes?
Hamas seems to be succeeding in one of its goals...
"Until Iran-backed Hamas sparked a war on Oct. 7 by launching a devastating attack on Israel, both Israeli and Saudi leaders had been saying they were moving steadily towards a deal that could have reshaped the Middle East"
""Normalisation was already considered taboo (in the Arab world) ... this war only amplifies that," Saudi analyst Aziz Alghashian said."
BUTR made me laugh. This always happens when there's a crisis, perhaps STW should be proud that it is seen as such an influential organ.
Where can Palestinians turn to when the Western powers turn against them and drive them from their homes?
It's always surprised me how unwelcome Palestinians are in other Arab nations, it seems like it's in their game plan to see Palestinians suffer so they can point fingers.
It's always surprised me how unwelcome Palestinians are in other Arab nations,
From Wiki, Palestinian diaspora numbers in other countries (not the total list, just 'Arab countries'):
Jordan 3,240,000
Syria 630,000
Lebanon 402,582
Saudi Arabia 280,245
Egypt 270,245
Qatar 100,000
Kuwait 80,000
Iraq 57,000
Yemen 55,000
Libya 44,000
Thanks Alpin and Frank for those long posts above. Both summarised a context that I've been thinking. Although appreciate there's other angles to consider.
I've been largely ignorant of the situation in the middle east until now so, despite the odd hiccup, this thread has helped a great deal and given me a good few pointers to follow up and think about.
It’s always surprised me how unwelcome Palestinians are in other Arab nations,
I know someone who had extensive contracts working directly for the Saudi royal family, she claims that the Saudi royals despise the Palestinians.
I think that for the Saudi royals the Palestinians are just awkward trouble makers without a pot to piss in. I am sure they would much rather the Israelis just wiped them off the face of the earth.
That might not reflect the opinions of the people of Arabia though, according to bikesandboots clip above only 2% of the population want to normalise relations with Israel.
Which even for a brutal dictatorship that doesn't bother with any form of democracy (not not even the illiberal democracy of Iran) that must be a bit of a problem.
ManKIND, manbloodyKIND.
I agree with poopscoop.
Everyone on this planet should be focused on looking after it, including everything that is trying to survive on earth.
Not necessarily where I expected a voice of reason to come from...
https://twitter.com/speirin/status/1712970747457507810?t=DTsJ8oNu7ZpnlgWAgBFpbg&s=19
But i guess shared experience breeds empathy and humanity, since An Taoiseach has also put his head above the international parapet.
Ironically there are quite a few parallels with the uprisings in Jewish ghettos in Warsaw and elsewhere against Nazi oppression.
This comment is outright anti-semitic. Alpin and anyone who upvoted his post needs to have a think about where they went wrong.
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/a-definition-of-antisemitism
Sorry Benos. I'm not sure I follow? I thought I understood the point alpin was making, but don't follow on the anti-Semitism angle?
Appreciate that I shouldn't be sidetracking this thread solely for my own education, but would welcome any explanation.
(And that's a genuine query from someone largely uninformed, not a challenge in anyway) cheers.
Follow the link.
And just think about it, for goodness sake. Alpin compared the slaughter of Jews at the weekend to “the 1943 act of Jewish resistance in the Warsaw Ghettoin German-occupied Poland during World War II to oppose Nazi Germany's final effort to transport the remaining ghetto population to the gas chambers”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising
The mods need to take action, and the rest of you need to get a grip.
Follow the link.
Same as Jim, this is a genuine query, I can't see which bit of the link makes Alpins comments anti-Semitic? I think Alpin might be wrong, but I don't think that necessarily means the comments are anti-Semitic.
As above , I can't really see how that comment is anti-semetic...............
Yup, not sure how drawing parallels between oppressed Jews and oppressed Palestinians and how those groups might feel about their oppressors is anti-Semitic.
Arguably misguided in the current context, but I see no prejudice in it.
(unless I've misinterpreted Alpin's comment)
The latest Reel Rock films include a film on climbing in Palestine. Obviously produced before recent events, but it was, for me, fascinating for various reasons.
The definition of Anti-Semitism includes that to make a comparison of the actions of Israel / IDF to the actions undertaken by the Nazis is deemed to be Anti-Semitic.
Follow the link, as I said. It’s in the UK definition of anti-semitism.
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/a-definition-of-antisemitism“Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.”
But of all the ways to do it, to draw a comparison of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising days after Hamas’ slaughter. It’s unconscionable.
Not necessarily where I expected a voice of reason to come from
@colournoise - if you’ve not seen it then Once Upon a Time in Northern Ireland is well worth a viewing
I was quite surprised when Patrick Kielty popped up and I had no idea about his family history or what he himself did. It changed my opinion of him completely. Balls like watermelons that lad, for putting his money where his mouth is and does indeed talk a lot of sense, being eminently qualified to do so.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p0ff7cg0/once-upon-a-time-in-northern-ireland
The mods need to take action, and the rest of you need to get a grip.
I liked Aplin's post he made a very valid point. One of the reasons that so many Jews are opposed to Israeli government treatment of the Palestinians is precisely because they see parallels with Nazis treatment of Jews.
The late Gerald Kaufman is a high profile example of a Jew who went from staunch supporter of Israel to outspoken critic precisely because he believed that the lessons of the Holocaust should never be forgotten.
And as for the link you posted, I don't need to lectured by a Tory politician about what constitutes racism.
Especially a Tory politician who is Chairman of Conservative Friends of Israel. And who has himself been found guilty of racism against gypsies.
Gypsies were of course persecuted by the Nazis, so another parallel there.
I think it speaks volumes that you want the mods to intervene. Israeli supporters like yourself want any criticism of Israel silenced. And to be fair you have been very successful.
But it would be OK (legal) to draw parallels between the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians and the actions of any other right-wing government towards an oppressed minority?
I get the basis for the technicalities of the definition in that case, but given that the Israeli government <> 'the Jewish people' I do also get why people might make the comparison.