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So, what is the worst case scenario here?
I have a horrible feeling we're about to find out
The hardliners in the Israeli government are playing right into Hamas hands with their (over)reaction. If whats about to happen is as bad as we all now expect, then the entire middle east could erupt as a reaction.
This is what Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad and the nutters in Iran all want, because in their eyes this will give them a sense of legitimacy which they will then ruthlessly exploit and they're all absolutely ****ing mental!
Tin foil hat time.
I don't think it needs a tin foil hat to see how events have played out here. Iran and Qatar don't want Israel and Saudi Arabia to normalise their relationship, and anticipating Netanyahu's over-reaction would be if they directed Hamas to launch hugely violent attacks within Israel went ahead - with scant regard to effect that they undoubtly knew that would have on the civilians of Gaza. And so they have been proved completely right.
neither Netanyahu or Hamas want peace, it serves neither of their needs. Bastards
The end of this will be an abhorrent act. I think the two sides are so entrenched in their positions, smoke being blown up their arses from their respective supporters that it's impossible to solve.
Violence begets more violence, thus jusitifying ever increasing levels of action.
The young Palestinian girl injured, crying, reminded me of my own niece. I cried last night when I saw this..
This is not right, civilians shall not be legitimate targets for either side.
Hamas knew exactly what the response would be
The Israeli state as responded just as Hamas thought they would. And there is civilian casualties on both sides.
Hamas could, of course, not attacked.
Those guys in the photo – Naturei Karta – are a tiny subgroup of a religious fringe. Like all extremists, they are absolutely bonkers
And the message on the placards ? The main point of this particular photo. Of course if you want I can go find others showing the exact same thing.
How about this one ? anyone here you consider unfit to deliver such a message ?
This is what Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad and the nutters in Iran all want
I must admit, I know that this is very difficult and complex, but I don't understand what they want exactly? My mind can't comprehend what is going on, much like what has/is happening in Ukraine. The world really is in a very perilous state right now.
I must admit, I know that this is very difficult and complex, but I don’t understand what they want exactly?
They're not shy of letting everyone know exactly what they want: the complete destruction of the state of Israel
Nothing less. And they couldn't give a flying **** what has to happen and how many people have to die to achieve that. You are not dealing with rational people here. We are talking about the most extreme of extremists
The main point of this particular photo. Of course if you want I can go find others showing the exact same thing.
Alf Dubs, Jewish Holocaust survivor, at the Labour Party Conference a couple of days ago:
https://twitter.com/PSCupdates/status/1711420661271351507
(Second photo)
The Israeli politicians have done a great job of making Israel and Judaism one and the same. Now obviously Israel was created as a Jewish state but the Israeli government have convinced people that to criticise Israel is to criticise Judaism. Ergo any criticism of Israel is antisemitic.
So much so that a practicing Jew was accused of being antisemitic for criticising Israel.
Regarding Israel being able to commit genocide and get away with it. The West needs someone to carry out their dirty work in Iran. Giving Israel a get out of jail free card.
Long story short Hamas are dicks for killing Israelis and Israel are dicks for killing Palestinians. Just wish someone had the answer.
I must admit, I know that this is very difficult and complex, but I don’t understand what they want exactly?
Once heard the shout of 'god is great' before a tricky job. Looking at the aftermath it didn't look or feel so great for them but the ones that sold them the plan weren't there. They were sat in a compound on aid money that had been paid to them by a local governer.
Powerful people wanting wealth, control and influence sending others do to the hard yards to gain and maintain that.
Some wear uniforms, some wear rags.
Just wish someone had the answer.
There is an answer but it's ****ing ugly.
Of course if you want I can go find others showing the exact same thing.
How about this one ? anyone here you consider unfit to deliver such a message ?
You have literally picked another photo of the exact same extremist bonkers fringe group. Look at the sign he is holding up - www.nkusa.org . The only reason anyone knows these guys is because they show up in full black hat gear to demonstrations and the occasional holocaust denial conference.
This a wildly distorting way to illustrate a statistic on mainstream US Jewish opinion. I would hate to see what your Google search term history looks like...
Hamas want to wipe out Israel. This has been repeatedly stated and is clear from their (repeated) actions.
The unfortunate reality is that Israel will now go into Gaza to fight Hamas head-on, but it's the unfortunate civilians of Gaza that will take the massive hit.
It's important to recognise that Hamas isn't 'the Palestinians'. Hamas is a relatively small group of terrorist fundamentalists who control the people of Gaza by force, and have now started a proper war with Israel.
Is anyone placed to help the Palestinians in Gaza? Will the rest of the Middle East sit on their hands and do nothing?
You have literally picked another photo of the exact same extremist bonkers fringe group. Look at the sign he is holding up
Any you've come up with the exact same interpretation. Jews must be pro Israel, because such and such in the pic is an extremist.
I did ask you to take note of the placards.
I would hate to see what your Google search term history looks like…
Simple, I'll tell you so you dont have to speculate or throw out more personal insults and attacks. I googled 'Jews against Zionism'
I know of this because pal Ralph is Jewish and he's often spoken on how detrimental Zionism is to his faith
But whatever. you knock yourself out with whatever interpretation you see fit.
Will the rest of the Middle East sit on their hands and do nothing?
They're not known for their support to one another unless it furthers their interests.
It might be one reason why the place is a tinder box of ongoing ****ery.
So yeah, they're gonna do what they always do.
Feel like the west should be less supportive and more critical friend, we're enabling them through mealy mouthed support.
They're the punchy bloke in the pub and we're feeding them pints then acting surprised when they glass the barmaid.
The only reason anyone knows these guys is because they show up in full black hat gear to demonstrations and the occasional holocaust denial conference.
This is very confusing. From the link which you posted:
Friedman explained his trip to Tehran as reflecting his desire to "show my respect to the members of my family who died in the Holocaust"
So the guy who says members of his family died in the Holocaust you claim is a Holocaust denier?
Anyway nutters aside Lord Alf Dubs is definitely a Holocaust survivor and he is definitely happy to hold a "Free Palestine" placard.
And here is some American mainstream Jewish opinion concerning Israel, if you haven't already seen it.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jul/24/american-jews-critical-israeli-settlements-west-bank
Anyway nutters aside Lord Alf Dubs is definitely a Holocaust survivor and he is definitely happy to hold a “Free Palestine” placard.
Then let's leave the example as that and try not to distract with personal arguments.
Jews must be pro Israel, because such and such in the pic is an extremist.
No-one has said this. Just that repeatedly using photos of the same bonkers fundamentalists that associate with holocaust deniers is a very weird way to illustrate a fact about mainsteam US Jewish public opinion.
It is also darkly funny that you tried to find a photo of a different group of people to illustrate the same point about mainstream US Jewish opinion...and instead came back with a different photo of the same tiny group of people! In fact, a tiny group of people who are pretty much only known for being anti-Zionist fundamentalist Jews and being brought into the conversation by critics of Israel. They are a meme.
Will the rest of the Middle East sit on their hands and do nothing?
The only one that really has a dog in this fight is Iran, which is a morally bankrupt theocracy too busy ruthlessly oppressing its own population at the moment to get involved. They'd always stop short of direct involvement anyway for fear of US reprisals
The rest of them are all corrupt, self-serving dictatorships who couldn't give a toss about their own citizens, let alone the Palestinians. They'll pay lip service to them but they'll do nothing more than that. They have no interest in anything but shoring up their own power and keeping the oil taps turned on to keep themselves in the lifestyles to which they've become accustomed
I suspect they will be getting ready for any unrest from their own populations which this might provoke, so they can brutally put it down, as always
Jews must be pro Israel, because such and such in the pic is an extremist.
But you have to admit, that once you know that this is a group of ultra orthodox that believe that Israel is an affront to God and must be destroyed, that's not the same as whether you think that the idea that in order to make sure Jews are safe, a homeland "as a thing" is right or wrong.
I mean get any group of Jews together and you'll have every opinion on everything, that's baked in. Occasionally The Jews for Jesus turn up outside the Schul, flogging their ideas. Some folks just don't represent, y'kno?
Just that repeatedly using photos of the same bonkers fundamentalists
Aren't they just deeply religious Jews?
How much things have changed that a country which was artificially created for people to live freely and follow the Jewish religion, now has a population in which over three-quarters don't consider themselves to be religious, and devoutly religious Jews are condemned!
What exactly is the purpose of Israel today? To provide a home for those who fancy living in a Western enclave in the Middle East, like warm weather, and can make a claim that their ancestors lived there a couple of thousand years ago?
All the while ignoring the fact that the previous/current occupants of the land had/have been living there uninterrupted for the last couple of thousand years.
The Jews for Jesus
They have a church/synagogue/temple whatever they call them, in South Croydon, I cycle past it at least once a week.
They totally fascinate me and I would like love to talk to them. They believe that Jesus Christ was the Messiah, and I know that JC was Jewish, but I don't understand why they don't call themselves Christians.
If they want to carry on as things were before his coming what is the point of celebrating his arrival?
Btw Jesus was a top Jew who believed in loving your neighbour, I can't provide any photos but I am sure that he would hold a "Free Palestine" placard.
The rest of them are all corrupt, self-serving dictatorships who couldn’t give a toss about their own citizens, let alone the Palestinians.
That is not entirely true. Lebanon is not a dictatorship, and has about half a million Palestinian refugees and its southern territory controlled by Hezbollah and a sliver by Israel, so it is not like the Palestinian issue is a mere talking point for them. Jordan is a constitutional monarchy (with "monarchy" definitely being the more important word, but there are imperfect elections and political parties), and also millions of Palestinian refugees. And Yemen and Libya are not dictatorships at all, but something much worse.
So, what is the worst case scenario here?
A Palestinian "final solution", a refugee crisis on a scale we have never seen, massive regional war between Israel and Syria / Iran which turns into a proxy war between Russia (Iran / Syria) and the West (Israel), largely neutral countries drawn into the war (Egypt, Iraq), more suicide bombers, lone wolves, stabby stabby types in Western cities etc.
that a country which was artificially created
Is this not true as every other country that has ever existed? I mean some of the surrounding states to Israel, are equally brand new, some of them preceding Israel only by a few decades
What exactly is the purpose of Israel today?
Why must Israel have a purpose? I don't think you'd ask the same of I dunno, Canada or Norway would you? Other than to allow the citizens of that country to say "This is home" what's the point of any country?
but I don’t understand why they don’t call themselves Christians.
I've no idea honestly, I've never really spoken to them when they show up, they're a bit too 'enthusiastic' for my taste.
I googled ‘Jews against Zionism’
The problem here is that you've selected pictures of just one, tiny fringe group as others have pointed out, who are not representative of the wider Jewish diaspora, nor even of those who are opposed to the Israeli regime and its actions. NK are a bunch of ultra-fundamentalist nutjobs. Even the ultra-orthodox Chasidic communities of Europe and the USA mostly view them as dangerous lunatics. Read up on their links to far-right fascist and neo-Nazi organisations.
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/176867
The big problem with NK is that they regularly turn up at pro-Palestinian rallies and demonstrations, and are welcomed by ignorant and naive people who see them as 'nice Jews' who are opposed to the oppression of the Palestinian people. They really aren't. They're just exploiting that for their own ends. They often take donations from unsuspecting and otherwise probably quite decent people, to further aid their madness. See them as like something like the BNP or Britain First etc; their existence ultimately undermines and threatens the very thing they claim to want to protect.
As for said pro-Palestinian demonstrations and groups; most are run by and for left-wing liberals, who abhor oppression and violence. However, sadly, some groups have been infiltrated and overrun by virulent anti-Semites. My wife and I once did a charity bike ride in aid of Gaza, that was led by an individual who turned out to be such an anti-Semite (he'd bang on about the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and 'Rothschild Zionism' and other such tired old anti-Semitic tropes); he's now a full on anti-vax conspiracy theorist lunatic. He was a big fan of NK. All this has made it very difficult for genuine pro-peace groups to co-ordinate efforts to lobby against Israeli oppression. Without wanting to stray into conspiracy theories myself, I wouldn't be amazed if there weren't agents acting for governments as agents provocateurs to deliberately undermine such movements. The propaganda war is just as dirty and nasty as actual war.
Hamas is a relatively small group of terrorist fundamentalists who control the people of Gaza by force,
Last time I checked Hamas were the elected government of Palestine. By the usage of words above this is an equivalence that the Netanyahu's team is a similar government. We've watched 70 years of this rubbish and each time a different result is expected from the same reactions.
The leaders of both factions are technically criminally insane.
Please don't go down this path, ernie. The thread really doesn't need it.
The Jews are an ethnoreligous group: separately a people and a religion.
This isn't true:
All the while ignoring the fact that the previous/current occupants of the land had/have been living there uninterrupted for the last couple of thousand years.
And this is dangerous:
What exactly is the purpose of Israel today?
Last time I checked Hamas were the elected government of Palestine
The last time I checked, the tories were the elected government of the United Kingdom. That doesn't mean we all support them, just that an actual minority of all people in the UK voted them into power. Ergo, Hamas are no more 'representative' of the Palestinian people than the tories are of British people.
It's worth pointing out that the last parliamentary elections held in Gaza were in 2006. Hamas won 3% more votes than Fatah. But to imagine anything approaching real democracy exists in a nation under foreign oppression, is a fantasy. Support for Hamas has been declining, and I imagine it's pretty low right now.
Last time I checked Hamas were the elected government of Palestine
They were elected in 2006. There haven't been any elections since then
To be fair, particularly after the last 13 years, I'd be more than happy to have the same government we had in 2006.
I doubt many Palestinians would feel the same though. The point is we'll never know because Hamas had no intention of allowing any more of this 'democracy' lark once they'd assumed power
@dancingkitty I recommend watching the video dyna-ti posted a few pages back. It follows it through from before the Balfour Declaration in 1917. It's a bit one-sided but the timeline is good.
Plenty of Jews need to flee persecution, both in the Arab world and Europe/Russia. Look at what is happening in Italy, look at France, look at the batshit insanity in Russia where Jews are being labelled as anti-Russian/Nazi sympathisers. Far right movements are on the rise as are extremist Muslim movements in European countries that have seen high levels of migration.
Yes, Israel had more practical use for Jewish diaspora immediately post war. However, what countries would be happy to take on millions of Jewish migrants should the destruction of Israel occur Ernie? Which of those countries can be trusted? Post Trump America? Far right Italy? Germany?My suggestion would be that the UK is likely the only country.
I have ended up in a couple of scraps with people who realised I had Jewish heritage and that's in the UK - one of the most tolerant countries in the world.
@benos, I have updated my wording to add clarity to what I was getting at. Apologies, I am writing from my phone - IMO yes Zionism existed well before the Balfour declaration but the events of the late twenties (eg the Hebron massacre) and thirties and finally the holocaust sealed the trajectory of the movement and polarised many Jewish doubters of Zionism into support.
but none of you should be under any illusion about the prospect of peace whilst Hamas exists
And no one should be under any illusion that peace can exist without justice, it simply can't, no matter how hard you try.
Israel of course knows this which is why it is armed to the teeth and relative to its size it is the most powerful military force on earth.
And also why the Palestinian people live permanently under military law.
Israel clearly believes that securing peace isn't important as long as the violence, which its apartheid system inevitably creates, can be contained, and the casualties are overwhelmingly Palestinians.
The Hamas attack was an attempt to challenge that mindset by inflecting horrific casualties on the Israelis, not to actually defeat them, which they obviously cannot do.
But to be fair Israel's hands are tied, it simply cannot agree to justice for the Palestinians. Injustice to the Palestinian people is in the very fabric of Israel. If justice for the Palestinian people had ever been an issue Israel would not exist as it does today.
Instead there would be a secular Palestine with Muslims, Christians, Jews, and nonbelievers, living side-by-side. A bit like most European countries.
@dancingkitty. Thanks!
But I think the 1922 UN (then LoN) Mandate to put the Balfour Declaration into effect is what sealed it. There's no evidence I know of to say it wouldn't have happened if not for the holocaust.
But they are always created with a purpose in mind.
When Isis controlled huge swathes of Iraq, they symbolically drove a bulldozer through a barricade made of sand that they labelled the Sykes-Picot line. The current countries that border or are neighbour to Israel have their origins in post colonial Europe. Their purpose was to allow either the French or British to exert control over territory that used to be the Ottoman Empire. I doubt you'd agree that their founding principle or purpose still applies, would you be equally content to let them be dissolved or changed to something else now, or would exert the rights of their inhabitants to do what they wanted with the countries that they inherited and now occupy?
I doubt many Palestinians would feel the same though. The point is we’ll never know because Hamas had no intention of allowing any more of this ‘democracy’ lark once they’d assumed power
I believe that it is the Israeli occupying authorities that have been an obstacle to elections in Palestine. Well according to the EU, I suspect that Israel would claim otherwise.
There were plenty of attacks on Jews in the one nation Ottoman state that you likely look at through rose tinted glasses Ernie. That kind of reconciliation is a long way off, for both sides - not just the state of Israel.
I would also argue that Europe is moving away from secular multiculturalism towards something darker.
The Hamas attack was not designed to change Israelis minds and develop Israeli support for Palestinian justice, it is designed to galvanise Muslim support through the Arab world and destroy Israeli normalisation of relations with its neighbours. It was designed to force people to pick sides in a battle that is grander than Palestine.
Their purpose was to allow either the French or British to exert control over territory that used to be the Ottoman Empire.
I won't dispute that!
Injustice to the Palestinian people is in the very fabric of Israel. If justice for the Palestinian people had ever been an issue Israel would not exist as it does today.
This is utterly wrong and bordering on anti-semitic. Please just stop.
There were plenty of attacks on Jews in the one nation Ottoman state that you likely look at through rose tinted glasses Ernie.
I am not sure what glasses you are wearing but it was the "one nation Ottoman state" that welcomed and offered a safe haven for Jews expelled by Europeans from Europe.
Indeed that is the very reason why there were so Jews in North Africa and the Middle East a hundred years ago.
The Balfour declaration stated that Jews would have a homeland in Palestine as long it did not impinge on the rights of non-Jews.
However, what sealed the direction of Zionism were the actions of both Arabs and Europeans. These actions created mass migration in the 30s and 40s. The British were turning away Jews from Palestine both before and after the war, even violently boarding one boat of Jews who survived the holocaust. Arabs violently opposed Jewish migration in the 20s culminating in the Hebron massacre, this all drove Zionist militancy and helped produce what we have now.
Injustice to the Palestinian people is in the very fabric of Israel. If justice for the Palestinian people had ever been an issue Israel would not exist as it does today.
This is utterly wrong and bordering on anti-semitic. Please just stop.
I will absolutely not stop it. Palestinians were expelled from their lands for the creation of Israel.
It might have been considered necessary but it certainly wasn't justice.
And that injustice has persisted to this day.
Why do think there are 2 million Palestinians living in what is the most densely populated place on earth, Gaza?
Because they all love to be by the seaside?
Even the United Nations commemorates the mass displacement of Palestinians known as “the Nakba” or “the Catastrophe”:
https://www.un.org/unispal/nakba75/
"Between 1947 and 1949, about 750,000 Palestinians out of a population of 1.9 million were expelled from their towns and villages to make way for the new Jewish immigrants."
How on earth is that not an injustice?
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/5/15/nakba-day-for-palestinians-not-just-an-historical-event
The Hamas attack was not designed to change Israelis minds and develop Israeli support for Palestinian justice, it is designed to galvanise Muslim support through the Arab world and destroy Israeli normalisation of relations with its neighbours. It was designed to force people to pick sides in a battle
In the context of Iran vs Saudi, particularly the latter's move from regional to aspirant international power. I think. In this reading Israel retaliating is doing what Hammas wants it to do. Maximum grimness. I'm now going to think about something else.
Ernie and I say this as someone who despises Netanyahu and the west bank settlers, too much has happened since then to be able to resolve that injustice without more death and war. It's done, that happened in the 1940s just after 6 million Jews had been gassed, German diaspora had been expelled from further east and Japan had been nuked, the only way is a two state solution.
After Hamas and Bibi have gone, that rhetoric won't produce any kind of reconciliation. It would be like trying to end the troubles by demanding ethnically Scottish Northern Irish to bugger off home and give all the land back.
also blimey
What exactly is the purpose of Israel today? To provide a home for those who fancy living in a Western enclave in the Middle East, like warm weather, and can make a claim that their ancestors lived there a couple of thousand years ago?
Is that a question looking for an answer, or some sort of statement? Looks worryingly like the latter.
French school teacher stabbed to death this morning. Attacker was shouting 'revenge' amongst other things.
It would appear from initial French comms that the individual was known to French Security Services. This cycle of violence has just got to stop. On all sides.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67101089
Before all of you jump on Ernie, it's an emotive topic and the destruction being filmed is going to produce emotive responses. He seems like a good person and obviously cares about people suffering, I can understand people questioning the point of all of the death and perhaps framing the Israeli question amongst all the pointless death.
I just don't think it helps or contributes to peace.
After Hamas have gone, that rhetoric won’t produce any kind of reconciliation.
Hamas are not the problem! They have only been around relatively recently. The Nakba or “the Catastrophe” occurred 75 years ago, the idea that everything was fine until Hamas came along is daft, as is the suggestion that things might get better after Hamas has gone.
Hamas do not control or have significant activity in East Jerusalem and the West Bank, is everything hunkydory there? Everyone happy?
Hamas is not the problem. It is one of the symptoms of the problem.
If justice for the Palestinian people had ever been an issue Israel would not exist as it does today.
Instead there would be a secular Palestine with Muslims, Christians, Jews, and nonbelievers, living side-by-side. A bit like most European countries.
This.
Israel needs to be dismantled, called Majungamabingyland and a secular government that rules for all needs to be put in it's place.
Israel as a country is younger than my mum. A religion doesn't deserve a homeland. By all means keep the name Israel if you must - but what HAS to happen is the separation of church and state.
Justice cannot happen without that separation. Israel is, by definition, descriminatory and unjust. As a country it's just like segregated buses - some for the whites, some for the blacks - apart from it's not about race*, it's about religion. Rosa Parks would be livid, and rightly so. And so should we.
*as much as the state of Israel would like us all to believe it is, it isn't.
No Ernie, we came very, very close to a deal when Arafat was in charge and both sides pissed it up the wall - Israel for not ceding 100 percent of the settled west bank areas and the Palestinians for not accepting something like 78 percent.
At some point the adults in the room have to engage in realpolitik to bring about peace, unfortunately the children are in charge on both sides. Bibi can be voted out but Hamas will have to be removed.
Just a pre-emptive note but before this thread possibly gets closed again if talk gets too heated and even incendary, may I thank the Mods for reopening this thread. I think it's been generally a good continuation of the discussions and hopefully informative for many.
If the thread does get closed , can the Mods possibly do so for a 24hr 'cooling off' period and then look to reopen.
Injustice to the Palestinian people is in the very fabric of Israel. If justice for the Palestinian people had ever been an issue Israel would not exist as it does today.
This is utterly wrong and bordering on anti-semitic. Please just stop.
This is understandably an extremely emotive subject. But we're never going to get anywhere if people sling accusations around without considering their impact. Whilst I believe Ernielynch's comments are perhaps rather brusque, I really don't see any actual anti-Semitic sentiment or rhetoric in them. You can be opposed to the nature of the state of Israel, without being anti-Semitic. Plenty of Jewish people are. The borders of Israel have expanded hugely at the expense of Palestinians, many of whom have been forced from their homeland. This is fact, and pointing it out doesn't constitute a hate crime. Levelling such accusations in this way is wrong and dangerous, as it then create further ideological division and conflict. We should be looking at what common ground we have, in trying to seek way to resolve the inhumanity that is unfolding. and not waste energy trying to win arguments. This has been a very good thread, and it would be very sad to once again see such a discussion shut down. The answers can only come through such discourse, and right now it's all many of us have. If we're ever going to reach any sort of effective ocnsensus, then shouting at each other isn't going to help.
@dancingkitty Thanks, gotcha.
Sorry, but I’m going to leave the thread now. We’re way off of how it started when it was reopened.
There was a rare good, secular Thought for the Day on R4 this morning.
And no one should be under any illusion that peace can exist without justice, it simply can’t, no matter how hard you try.
Unfortunately this isnt true, although some of the scenarios involved are so horrific I wish it was true.
Israel as a country is younger than my mum.
Most of the countries in the region are. Iraq -1932, Syria -1941, Lebanon -1920, Saudi Arabia -1932, to name a few, why single out Israel?
Instead there would be a secular Palestine with Muslims, Christians, Jews, and nonbelievers, living side-by-side. A bit like most European countries.
Golda Meir said in the 60's (I'm undoubtedly misquoting ) If the Palestinians laid down their guns, there'd be peace, If the Israelis did the same, there'd be no Israel.
I wonder if Chevychase has ever tried to be an ethnic minority, like a Baha'i, Druze or Christian in a Muslim country.
It's all fine and dandy as a secular European saying a religion doesn't deserve a homeland but the rest of the world doesn't think the way secular Europeans do and secular Europeans have only been secular Europeans for as long as Israel has existed. Before that, they committed all sorts of genocides on non-christains - why should the secular European model be trusted by those outside looking in? What have we done in the intervening years to prove to both Jews and Muslims that we aren't, deep down still the same as pre-war Europe? We've bombed Iraq, Libya, Vietnam, set up a concentration camp in Cuba....
I don't think you need to go. You had some good input.
How about, we try and put our money where our mouths are and all try to find common ground in this discussion. That might give us all some hope. I'm looking at you as well Ernie, Benos had a valid point - let's not resort to bad faith arguments.
Whilst I believe Ernielynch’s comments are perhaps rather brusque, I really don’t see any actual anti-Semitic sentiment or rhetoric in them.
I thought I was quite pro-jewish, no? I don't think anyone else has repeatedly brought up the horrific crimes committed by Europeans against Jews.
And no one bangs on more than me about opposition to Israeli government policies from Jews, especially American Jews. One link making that point I have posted about 3 three times. I have posted about Jewish Holocaust survivor Alf Dubs holding a Free Palestine placard twice.
I find to even question whether I am anti-sematic bizarre. But I am hardly unique - just look at what UK politicians such as Suella Braverman and Keir Starmer are saying.
I know that the lazy response to criticism of Israel is allegations of anti-semitism, but the Jewish people are not the problem. Racism and injustice is.
The point is Ernie, you brought up a historical injustice that cannot be fully solved. It only contributes and fuels grievance, peace talks need to move on from it. It's not a position that is taken in good faith.
People will accuse you if anti-Semitism at that point - and I think it's telling that it came from someone who is likely more moderate than me.
The point is Ernie, you brought up a historical injustice that cannot be fully solved. It only contributes and fuels grievance, peace talks need to move on from it. It’s not a position that is taken in good faith.
But that historical injustice is the root of the inhumanity we're seeing unfold. No progression can be made without considering the rights of Palestinians to their own homeland, and self-determination as a people. To say we need to 'move on' is to ignore that, and excuse the oppression that has existed for many decades. If people keep ignoring history, then they are doomed to repeat its failings.
One last comment:
“Between 1947 and 1949, about 750,000 Palestinians out of a population of 1.9 million were expelled from their towns and villages to make way for the new Jewish immigrants.”
The Arab groups and neighbouring countries rejected the 1947 UN plan, which Jewish groups had accepted, and chose instead to wage war for it all. They lost. No prizes for what guessing what would've happened if they'd won.
What really matters now isn't the past but the future. But if you are going to make it about the past, please do it in good faith.
Golda Meir said in the 60’s (I’m undoubtedly misquoting ) If the Palestinians laid down their guns, there’d be peace, If the Israelis did the same, there’d be no Israel.
Quoting Golda Meir is really not a way to advance this discussion. For balance, she also said:
“There were no such thing as Palestinians, when was there an independent Palestinian people with a Palestinian state? … It was not as though there was a Palestinian people in Palestine considering itself as a Palestinian people and we came and threw them out and took their country away from them. They did not exist,”
The destruction of the Jewish state of Israel and going back to a pre-Israeli state of some kind is not "self-determination", it it is a bad faith idea that would only lead to the expulsion of Jews from Israel.
All you are doing by advancing this idea is legitimising the goals of Hamas.
If you want peace, there needs to be more realism/practicality and less entrenchment and than this.
If people keep ignoring history, then they are doomed to repeat its failings.
Well in this case both parties keep refering to their history and it doesn't seem to be going too well.
Ding ding, we have a winner Mando.
However, both Hamas and Bibi need to go for peace. Im afraid it's going to be war first and perhaps peace after, if Hamas can actually be pushed out. I can't see it happening whilst they or Bibi are at the table.
If people keep ignoring history, then they are doomed to repeat its failings.
Oh no one is ignoring history, it's just that some people are selective about what history they want to remember.
From them the situation in Palestine 75 years ago isn't important, in contrast what is important for them is the situation in Judea two thousand years ago.
It is used to justify someone from New York kicking out a Palestinian from his home in the Occupied West Bank.
In fact it forms the very basis of their argument.
Israel needs to be dismantled, called Majungamabingyland and a secular government that rules for all needs to be put in it’s place...A religion doesn’t deserve a homeland. By all means keep the name Israel if you must – but what HAS to happen is the separation of church and state.
The way you get to this kind of position is by:
1) denying the existence of Jews as a people (as opposed to merely a religious congregation)
2) being convinced that Israel is some kind of theocracy
3) ignoring the lessons of history about what happens when Jews are a minority relying on the goodwill of others for their safety
4) being completely convinced of one's own correctness from afar, when practically no-one in Israel or Palestine actually wants to live in a binational state
NK is that they regularly turn up at pro-Palestinian rallies and demonstrations, and are welcomed by ignorant and naive people who see them as ‘nice Jews’ who are opposed to the oppression of the Palestinian people...See them as like something like the BNP or Britain First etc
They are such an outlier, it is a bit like illustrating the views of British BAME people using the example of Lawrence Rustem, the half-Turkish BNP candidate. Like, technically maybe, but, you know...
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/jul/22/race.world1
Most of the countries in the region are. Iraq -1932, Syria -1941, Lebanon -1920, Saudi Arabia -1932, to name a few, why single out Israel?
@nickc - because it's the topic and hand and because they're running an apartheid state which is currently collectively punishing over 2 million people having turned off their water.
If denying babies water is an acceptable form of coercion by a nuclear-armed state then maybe I'm just some tree-hugging hippy.
So, what is the worst case scenario here?
In the short term probably the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians from thirst, starvation or bombs dropping on them. In the medium term the West Bank rising up and war between Israel and Iran/Hezbollah. Given the mentality of the lunatics in the Israeli govt I wouldn’t put it past them to use a nuke or two.
which is currently collectively punishing over 2 million people having turned off their water.
I'm happy to condemn the the actions of the Israeli Govt, it has nothing to do with how old, or not it is as a country; in relation to your mum.
Given the mentality of the lunatics in the Israeli govt I wouldn’t put it past them to use a nuke or two.
You've been saying the same thing about Putin and Ukraine for months now, let's hope your prediction here is as accurate.
if Hamas can actually be pushed out. I can’t see it happening whilst they or Bibi are at the table.
But if Hamas is gone, who then do the Palestinian people look to for military support(Or protection) ? Certainly not the Israelis, nor western countries like the UK, US or Europe.
I'm sure Israel would love to see the back of Hamas, but would that in light of the actions taken not be detrimental to the Plight of the Palestinian people. I mean Israel has done nothing other than expel them and place them for the most part in a compound, under extremely oppressive conditions.
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Incidentally welcome to the forum DancingKitty. It's good to have someone here who clearly has a lot of knowledge in this field, but Im sure what people would like to know are you still ok with 27.5, or is it 29er all the way.
I’m happy to condemn the the actions of the Israeli Govt, it has nothing to do with how old, or not it is as a country; in relation to your mum.
I illustrated the age point specifically because "history" is thrown up as a blocker to deny change. Desparately needed change.
That argument doesn't hold water.
It's an inherently unjust and discriminatory country. We need to change it. History should have no bearing on it.
Separate church and state. A secular country that governs for all.
Given the mentality of the lunatics in the Israeli govt I wouldn’t put it past them to use a nuke or two.
I would. Israel's nuclear weapons are their "Wonder Weapons" to be used as a last resort when everything else has failed and Israel is about to be overwhelmed by enemy forces, we are a very long way from that.
IMHO Israel's demise will be very slow, over a very long period of time, and its final collapse probably not more dramatic than the collapse of apartheid in South Africa.
The status of Israel's nuclear weapons is interesting imo. As far as I am aware Israel is the only country in the world which possess nuclear weapons but doesn't publicly admit to having any.
All other nuclear armed countries publicly boast of their possession of nuclear weapons because that is part of the deterrent appeal of having them.
Israel on the other hand doesn't see its nuclear weapons as simply a deterrent but also as an important weapon of last resort.
And of course their secret nuclear weapons arsenal means that it is not subject to international inspections or accusations of treaty violations....."we don't have any nuclear weapons, simples"
But if Hamas is gone, who then do the Palestinian people look to for military support(Or protection) ? Certainly not the Israelis, nor western countries like the UK, US or Europe.
Neither the Palestinians nor Israelis can expect others to protect them. Each needs its own homeland for security. The question is now whether two states are even viable now - and how many people would have to be moved in the process.