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Just sounds like a load of whataboutism to me Ernie.
And low tech methods of killing people, seriously is that what you're calling this? Its unimaginable cruelty. Low tech would be your typical bomb in a crowded place or just gunning people down. Theres even a tiny part of my psyche that can put myself in the shoes of an oppressed freedom fighter with nothing to lose where killing the enemy like that could be almost 'justified', but nothing that could lead me to imagine what kind of hatred for life that leads to the horrors we've just seen. No I just dont see an equivalency between how the 2 sides go about murdering each other quite frankly.
How about this horrible thought experiment, would you rather you or your family suffered the fate of an oppressed Palestinian, at best a much diminished life, at worst taken out by a bomb or bullet meant for your terrorist government. Or would you rather the fate worse than death suffered by many Israelis at the weekend, and still to come once hostages start getting tortured and killed on camera? I'm quite sure all those hostages held by Israel aren't about to find themselves dying horrifically on social media.
Of course dead is dead, but I know whose fate I'd prefer, just whilst we're discussing equivalancy.
Were ISIS justified in their barbarism? Of course not. Any whataboutism or justification for Hamas 'tactics' has now left the table never to return, there is no way back.
there is no way back
Let's hope that for the sake of the civilians on both sides that there is some way out of this.
As for comparing methods of killing, what do you think it's like to be on the receiving end of an airstrike, people dying in agony over days with limbs ripped off, guts literally hanging out and with no realistic medical aid. I'm not excusing Hamas but they've witnessed this over and over again, brutalising them.
Let’s hope that for the sake of the civilians on both sides that there is some way out of this.
The civilians in Gaza have nowhere to go. They're in an open prison. They can't leave. Where are they supposed to go? Into the sea?
Its just said on the news that the one power station in Gaza has just shut down so there is now no power and no water. This means there is now no medical facilities for what I'm sure is going to be a huge number of casualties. Its absolute inhumanity
If you didn't see the coverage on channel 4 news last night of what its like at the moment in Gaza, its absolutely horrific. I just can't see any justification for the collective punishment of a population of over 2 million in this way. Its
https://twitter.com/channel4news/status/1711821708993126739?s=46&t=1lK7Dw1b6RqGJyvufO-trQ
This means there is now no medical facilities for what I’m sure is going to be a huge number of casualties.
whilst savage, it probably doesn't mean that. Most hospitals in europe have backup generators, I'd be amazed if a country that can be so easily seiged doesn't have the same.
@mrdavids
I just dont see an equivalency between how the 2 sides go about murdering each other quite frankly
Yep. Unfortunately, you've sided with the well funded politically immune apartheid state which is running a prison camp for more than two million people whilst encouraging their military and their population to murder the inmates.
Horror is horror. We know what the solution is (I posted it overleaf) but nobody is going to bite that bullet. Thinking of the Palestinians as inmates of an open concentration-camp (who've just had their water supply, energy and all medical supplies turned off by the prison guards, regardless of their involvement) is more illustrative than your false equivalency thought experiment.
Most hospitals in europe have backup generators, I’d be amazed if a country that can be so easily seiged doesn’t have the same.
Most hospitals in Europe don't have their fuel supply cut off by a belligerent neighbour.
Most hospitals in europe have backup generators, I’d be amazed if a country that can be so easily seiged doesn’t have the same.
Apparently they do have back up generators, but being effectively blockaded by Israel for years they’re old, inefficient and dilapidated and likely to run out of fuel.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/gaza-hospitals-struggle-cope-israel-cuts-electricity
Dont know if this helps or not, but truth is none of us bar one or two really knows the historical timeline of the conflict.
"Most hospitals in europe have backup generators, I’d be amazed if a country that can be so easily seiged doesn’t have the same."
Due to the long running blockade by Israel and Egypt there's likely to be little or no fuel for any back up generator.
Edit beaten to it by Dr J
No religion deserves a homeland of it’s own.
Open a history book.
No religion deserves a homeland of it’s own.
Open a
historygrammar book.
😉
Most hospitals in europe have backup generators, I’d be amazed if a country that can be so easily seiged doesn’t have the same.”
Backup generators are only supposed to cover interruptions to mains power (hence "backup"), not a siege. You'd need a gigantic amount of diesel hanging around to keep a hospital powered for a long period. And you would need the technicians to run it. And you would need the hospitals not to be struck by missiles. And you would need the ambulances not to be destroyed and the paramedics not killed. And you would need the water and supplies to run the hospital.
https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/israel-strikes-neighborhood-after-neighborhood-gaza-war-appears-103883379
https://www.msf.org/hospitals-are-overwhelmed-catastrophic-situation-gaza
Just sounds like a load of whataboutism to me Ernie.
That comment reveals so much. This is obviously a conflict involving two sides, but you want to focus on discussing the actions of only one side.
The idea that you can discuss half the problem is ridiculous, as is ignoring the root causes of the conflict and what continues to persistently fuel it.
The only whataboutism which I would suggest is how about not ignoring the inconvenient stuff which you would rather not talk about?
Which is of course that Israel is an apartheid state, a crime against humanity under international law, and that the Palestinian people are a repressed people who have been denied justice for decades due to the horrific crimes committed by Europeans against Jews.
European crimes against Jews which were far worse than anything that is currently happening. How did the ovens in Auschwitz compare with medieval butchery?
Open a history book.
That's not an argument.
Tell me why any religion - every one of which is nothing more than a nonsensical collection of plagarised ideas (it's not a people) - deserves a "homeland".
And even if historically you can show that a religion had one, given todays intellectual understanding of what religion is (i.e. nonsense that kids see right through, until brow (or physically) beaten by their parents into shutting up - and the biggest source of war, conflict and intolerance that humans have managed to invent) why we should continue to put up with such bullshit, rather than do things differently.
Separation of church and state. Secular government. Freedom of religion for all - and government for all. Not just some arbitrarily special few based on which sky-fairy they follow - with separate laws for people who weren't born into that particular brand of asshattery.
You may well find it offensive (there’s no accounting for taste) but no-one is seeking to offend you. “Islamist” is just the English cognate of “Islamiyya”, used in Arabic political discourse to denote a specifically political Islam. It does not conflate all Muslims – quite the opposite – it’s specifically identifying those who see Islam as not just a religious, but also worldly political, movement.
Thanks for your thoughts, and your rather patronising attempt to explain to me something I already know, but intent or not is irrelevant when it comes to an individual being offended. I have explained exactly why I find the term offensive, so please acknowledge this rather than simply ignoring why I've said it. The use of such a term in Western media and discourse particularly, is very different to its use within Islam. In the case of Western media, it is very much a pejorative term. I am well aware than some Muslim commentators might use the term in the Western context themselves, but we aren't all one homogeneous group when it comes to sensibilities and ideology.
----------------
So at what point is it appropriate to talk about genocide? I’m sure Hamas would love to give it a go but there’s a big difference between wanting to do it and having the means to and going through with it. I guess we’ll know in a few days time after the water runs out.
"UK to deploy Royal Navy ships to support Israel"
Sigh.... How about "UK deploys Royal Navy to deliver humanitarian aid to Gaza"?
For sale, hardly used, one Government issue moral compass 😟
Genocide - 'Genocide is the intentional destruction of a people[a] in whole or in part. In 1948, the United Nations Genocide Convention defined genocide as any of five "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group." These five acts were: killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group. Victims are targeted because of their real or perceived membership of a group, not randomly'.
See you in International Court Netanyahu.
Thank you Mods.
So come on lads, behave, and discuss.
Maybe our govt. and an initiative for a humanitarian aid corridor? I've only got a 10yr old renault master, but if it would do any good I'd be off to Go Outdoors tomorrow and off to Gaza the day after. Need a convoy 2 miles long to make a difference and there'd probably be nothing left by the time it got there. But, sentiments, and all that.
There of course of a humanitarian crisis currently developing as the result of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.
The Israeli side has reasonable access to medical supplies and the means to finance whatever is required.
In contrast for the Palestinians the situation is extremely dire in terms of medical supplies and the resources to pay for whatever is needed.
Medical Aid for Palestinians have long done excellent work to provide humanitarian aid for the Palestinians.
Medical Aid for Palestinians works in partnership with the United Nations and is supported by the EU and the UK government.
If anyone wants to support the vital work MAP desperately needs to currently do in Gaza here is the link :
Ernie - I've done a number of charity bike rides for MAP over the years. A great organisation and they have historically navigated the politics of the situation with great skill and composure.
MAP gave me a great excuse to charity mtb ride 500km in 7 days just over 10 years ago, a very memorable week.
Medecins sans Frontieres are also very active.
Is anyone attacking the West in the name of Christ?<br /><br />
Well, there’s a Christian Nationalist cult doing its damndest to turn North America into a fundamentalist theocracy at the moment, and openly talking about murdering anyone who stands in their way. They’ve already attempted armed insurrection, so make of that what you will.
Nobody seems to have seen the news report earlier this evening showing how Hamaas carried out their attacks, and it was very sophisticated, showing that they’ve been paying very close attention to what Ukraine has been doing against Russia. They used drones to bomb the gun emplacements on the fence towers, blew huge holes in the fences, flew fighters over the fences using parawings, and used big diggers to shove clear fallen parts of the fence so that armed groups on dirt bikes could enter. It was incredibly well planned, and followed the initial massed rocket attacks that the Iron Dome system seemed unable to counteract.
Israel seems to have seriously underestimated what Hamaas is capable of planning and carrying out, and now they’re reaping the whirlwind.
Right about now is when Netanyahu should be removed from office, forcibly if necessary, and a rational government installed.
Genocide
I'm not sure genocide is a fair descriptive, but ethnic cleansing certainly is.
.
Im finding this all very distressing. Our own governments quick to criticize Russian invasion of Ukraine, are now siding with war crimes and those against humanity.
Hamas should be brought to justice for sure, but Israel also.
Our own governments quick to criticize Russian invasion of Ukraine
It wasn't really, though. Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014, and the UK did very little. Russia invaded Georgia in 2008, and the UK did nothing.
Meanwhile, part of an email I received from a women's clothing collective in Ramallah and Bethlehem:
thank you to those of you who have been placing orders, knowing we have no way to ship them as roads are blocked and services are down. We have started packaging orders and are waiting for services to resume and will update you as soon as something changes.
Lastly, and most importantly, here is a link to many trusted organizations aiding Palestinians on the ground in the West Bank and in Gaza. The page also includes organizations to help with understanding and learning about the Palestinian narrative.
https://buildpalestine.com/2021/05/15/trusted-organizations-to-donate-to-palestine/
We will keep you updated and send lots of love from Palestine.
the Nol Collective family x
As in Ukraine, donating to organisations that help ordinary people and spending money with grassroots businesses is the best way to support vulnerable people.
Israel seems to have seriously underestimated what Hamaas is capable of planning and carrying out
Yup, what appears to have surprised a lot of people in Israeli intelligence failure. My understanding is that Israeli intelligence is generally excellent.
There are a lot of extremely desperate people in the Occupied Territories, and 40% of Palestinian men have at some point been held prisoner by the Israeli military.
So Israel has long been able to find sufficient Palestinians to pressurise into providing them with vital information from within Gaza.
This has proved to have been a huge problem for Hamas in the past and it has regularly executed those which it finds guilty of being Israeli agents (including no doubt innocent individuals, as is always the case in these scenarios).
Obviously the totally unexpected attack, which was of huge unprecedented magnitude and sophistication, suggests that Israel's intelligence gathering failed spectacularly.
Either Hamas has massively increased its security, which I find difficult to believe considering the size of the operation and the population density of Gaza, or Israel's spy network has been compromised by double agents, or people are simply too scared or otherwise unwilling to spy for Israel.
Either way it represents a huge setback for Israel.
Hamas should be brought to justice for sure, but Israel also.
It's not just Israel now. Western governments have essentially given the green light to the extermination of an entire people. Whether we like it or not we're all implicated in this now. If we don't want this hanging round our necks for the next century we can only hope that sense prevails and the siege is lifted to allow food, water, medical supplies and power to the 2 million civilians who need it to survive.
the siege is lifted to allow food, water, medical supplies and power to the 2 million civilians who need it to survive.
This is what I don't understand, the Israeli defence minister stands before the world and declares no electricity, food, water or gas. Despite knowing full well that depriving civilians of food and water is indisputably a war crime.
How did we get to the point that one country can so publicly declare that it is about to commit a war crime?
And knowing full well that it won't be held to account.
I wouldn't even expect the United States to be so open, brazen, and shameless.
Several listed here:
https://time.com/6322238/how-to-help-israel-gaza-war-victims/
I have a monthly standing order to the Red Cross/Crescent (which I recommend doing) and add more for appeals.
How did we get to the point that one country can so publicly declare that it is about to commit a war crime?
It's not a war crime if it isn't technically a war.... Maybe a 'special operation'.
Maybe he's pulling the Putin/Crimea defence, as in, 'I said it's it's my land, so therefore it is my land - international law does not apply, so all you's invaders should get off it, or else!'
There are very bad actors on both 'sides', and as per usual it's not the political/religious idealists that suffer, it's just normal people and children that probably don't give a shit and are just trying to go about thier daily lives, that suffer.
I have just seen the Israeli President in a news conference broadcast on ITN apparently claiming that civilians in Gaza are legitimate targets because "they could have rebelled against the malicious regime that took over Gaza in a coup attempt, they could have fought against it."
So it would appear that Hamas only needs to point out that Israeli civilians are legitimate targets because they could have "rebelled" against the regime which illegally occupies Palestine.
The Israeli President also said at the press conference that Israel followed "international law" in Gaza, despite Israel openly admitting that it was stopping food and water reaching civilians.
It was like listening to Saddam Hussein's spokesman Comical Ali giving a press conference at the start of the Iraqi, only not as funny.
The Russians are asking for help in getting 400-odd Russian citizens out of Gaza. Would I be out of order hoping that they remain trapped there, and in doing so maybe understand just a little what their own government is doing in Ukraine?
Innocent children murdered in their beds by deranged murderers.
Israel responds by murdering five hundred more, mutilating their tiny bodies with high-tech weapons.
No better than Hamas. Child killers. Absolutely vile, and the UK sends them more weapons.
I've never been so ashamed of this country and that's saying something.
Tell me why any religion – every one of which is nothing more than a nonsensical collection of plagarised ideas (it’s not a people) – deserves a “homeland”.
It’s not about ‘deserves’ … it’s because history shows us that without a homeland that will take in persecuted Jews, the rest of the world can’t be relied on to prevent that persecution, or to adequately take on those trying to escape it… no matter how far that persecution is taken. Now, even if you except that a Jewish state is needed (many posted here seem to think otherwise, I’m not one of them) you can still condemn outright the way that a series of right wing Israeli governments have used defence as an excuse for expansion, aggression and dehumanisation. Likewise we can condemn the Hamas instigated recent events for their horrific nature, even if we believe in a free and internationally accepted and facilitated Palestine. To say the people currently leading both sides, and many who follow and act for them, have aims and tactics that no right minded person should be supporting, does not automatically lead to a position where you claim one state or the other should not exist. I’m wary of those who jump to that conclusion. There is normally heavy prejudice involved.
Don’t read my ramblings though… read this instead:
https://www.msf.org/indiscriminate-violence-and-collective-punishment-gaza-must-cease
And donate if you can.
According to ReliefWeb, which is the specialized digital service of United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs :
"According to Article 147 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, the destruction of property that is not justified by military necessity and is carried out on a large scale constitutes a grave breach that requires prosecution. Such practices are also considered to be war crimes under the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court.
"A grave breach that requires prosecution"? What chances of that?
The only reason Israel does it is because they know they can do with total impunity.
Yep, clearly in the war crime category. They knew what they were doing and knew what the outcome would be - they were after revenge at that point and not any sort of warfare. What is being planned now with ground offensive, presumably a bit more targeted fighting with intent to kill the actual enemy, rather than children, is an accepted method of war.
The only reason Israel does it is because they know they can do with total impunity.
In that respect they're like every other country in the world that pays lip service to every UN charter and agreement that gets signed in solemn ceremonies and looks good on paper, but has zero effect on their behaviour.
No they are not like "every other country in the world". They are in fact fairly unique.
Not many countries publicly announce that they are about to commit war crimes as Israel did when it said that it would stop food and water supplies to the civilian population in Gaza.
And not many countries in the world know that they can violate international law to the extent that Israel does without facing any risk of having sanctions placed on them - can you think of any at all?
Plenty of countries violate international law, plenty of countries have sanctions slapped on them. Uniquely Israel violates international law knowing that it doesn't face any risk of effective sanctions.
In fact the current UK government is in the process of making it illegal for organisations to boycott Israeli goods.
Absolutely agree that the Israeli government needs holding to account for war crimes, this can't go on. Warning them about proportionality doesn’t cut it.
And for balance Hamas need to be tried for their crimes.
The cynic in me wonders if Hamas and the Israeli government are using the death and suffering of their respective people to further their own ends and strengthen their own positions.
Israel seems to have seriously underestimated what Hamaas is capable of planning and carrying out, and now they’re reaping the whirlwind.
The scale and sophistication of the attack required a lot of planning, and there were no warnings? I read that Egypt claimed to have warned the Israelis a few days before. Were warnings ignored, or does it suit both sides to allow these atrocities on both sides to strengthen their position?
What is being planned now with ground offensive, presumably a bit more targeted fighting with intent to kill the actual enemy, rather than children, is an accepted method of war.
The IDF has a long record of using children as human shields. This was earlier this year long before the Hamas attack:
https://www.dci-palestine.org/israeli_forces_use_five_palestinian_children_as_human_shields
"Ahmad and Mohammad, both two years old, and forced them to stand in front of Israeli military vehicles while Israeli forces fired tear gas canisters, stun grenades, and live ammunition at Palestinians confronting the group of soldiers"
The cynic in me wonders if Hamas and the Israeli government are using the death and suffering of their respective people to further their own ends and strengthen their own positions.
This is exactly what’s happening. They’re both posturing, just for different (equally hardline) audiences.
With the way they’re talking, I don’t even want to imagine the death and destruction that the Israelis are about to rain down on the population of Gaza, or what Hamas have got planned in reply, but it’s going to be a humanitarian catastrophe on a scale we may not have witnessed before
No voices of reason or moderation are being listened to on either side and I fear for all the poor people caught in the middle of what’s about to unfold
Utterly depressing
In asking for evacuation maybe this goes beyond a ground evacuation. Nuke on Gaza city?
I think a nuke would be too much even for their staunchest supporters. It will, I think, fully drop them into the "genocide" category and would, rightly, make them a pariah.
I'm having a massive feeling of déjà vu about this whole sorry mess. How many times in my lifetime have I shaken my head in total despair and frustration at another Israeli/Palestinian war? Horrific terrorist acts and massively disproportionate military responses. Suffering on an epic scale breeding a new generation of hate filled youth to feed the never ending cycle.
We've been here before so many times and it creates such an overwhelming feeling of helplessness. Other than supporting some of the humanitarian relief organisations and voting wisely to unseat a UK government which is actively enabling the collective punishment of 2 million civilians, what can we do?
Imagine if our Government issued an order for 100% of the residents of Birmingham to move out and entirely leave within 24 hours. With roads and infrastruucture already partially destroyed... I'm sure that'd go well.
Bloody hell, what are we witnessing.
and voting wisely to unseat a UK government which is actively enabling the collective punishment of 2 million civilians, what can we do?
Keir Starmer has basically said Israel can do whatever the hell it it likes. Whoever is in govt in the UK will make no difference. The Uk, and by extension all of us, is now a participant in ethnic cleansing and potential genocide.
The cynic in me wonders if Hamas and the Israeli government are using the death and suffering of their respective people to further their own ends and strengthen their own positions.
Of course. Hamas went on a murder spree to provoke exactly the level of reaction the Israeli government is now delivering to Gaza. They don't care about the 2.1m men, women and children in Gaza. Setting back peace efforts in the middle east, and seeding a new generation of young recruits is a fine reward for death and misery.
In Israel, Netanyahu will be buoyed by being a 'wartime leader', even though there will be deep embarrassment over the ease with which thousands of Hamas fighters managed to cross into Israel.
Genuine friends of Israel should be trying harder to hold them back from committing war crimes on a civilian population, because it is exactly what their enemy wants.
There was no-one to hold back the US and its allies after 9/11, all our governments were swept along in a revenge-fest that cost hundreds of thousands of civilian lives and probably helped recruit some of those who struck at Israel this month.
There was no-one to hold back the US and its allies after 9/11, all our governments were swept along in a revenge-fest that cost hundreds of thousands of civilian lives and probably helped recruit some of those who struck at Israel this month.
Very much this. There was a cautionary article about this in the Guardian a couple of days ago
The attack on Israel has been called a ‘9/11 moment’. Therein lies a cautionary tale
If the Israeli government responds to this moment like George W Bush, it will soon follow the route of his government from global sympathy to global outrage
In the meantime, it unfortunately looks like our joke of a government is going to be as much of a nodding dog as it was back then and go along with whatever the Israeli's do in retaliation, no matter how extreme
Grant Schapps is on Radio 4 at moment, saying as much. He's utterly pathetic and is just parotting the Israeli line about its 'right to defend themselves' and is now going with the the Daily Mail line of attacking the BBC instead, as a distraction. He's being taken apart obviously, not that he'll care
Grant Shapps MP just shatt himself live on R4. He had his balls nailed to the wall by Mishal Husain over the UK Gov seemingly being supportive of 1.1m Gazans being asked to move in 24hrs.
You could almost hear his brain ticking over, 'don't say anything implicating the UK to war crimes, don't say anything implicating the UK to war crimes'.
Seems the Israeli strategy is clear now. They're going to do a Maruipol on Gaza city, push as many of the 2M Palestinians into Egyptian refugee camps, and kill anyone else left remaining. Then they'll claim Gaza (or at least the northern half of it) as their own. It's going to be the worst example of ethnic cleansing we've seen since WWII, and Western govts are going to stand aside and let them do it. If that happens we'll see the West Bank explode and then that will drag in other Arab states. We're in very dangerous times.
Biden can’t afford to risk upsetting the Jewish vote.
I obviously know that it wasn't intended to be (you have friends/family in Israel?) but that is the narrative often pushed by anti-semites.
The Jewish vote in the United States is mostly exaggerated. Only 2.4% of the population are Jewish. Furthermore American Jews are far from universally supportive of Israel, some of the most outspoken critics of Israel are American Jews.
The majority of Jewish voters in the US are opposed to the current Israeli government policy of further colonisation in Occupied Palestine.
So much so if fact that they support restrictions on US military aid to Israel.
"In 2021, a Jewish Electorate Institute poll found that 58% of American Jewish voters support restrictions on US military aid to prevent Israel using it to expand West Bank settlements."
Jews are not the bad guys! Zionists are.
can you think of any at all?
Sure, the US has committed so many war crimes you could start a thread of them all by themselves, as has Iran, Russia, China, the UK. France, Turkey Syria...etc etc. If the low bar to their behaviour is that they tell everyone beforehand, what difference does that make if they behave like every other overly-heavily armed country, i.e. with impunity?
I'm horrified by the tactics used by the IDF, but I don't think for a second that any other militarised right wing govt would do anything different.
@martinhutch well said. The tit for tat escalates until it creates another angry generation.
There’s an election year in the US and Biden can’t afford to risk upsetting the Jewish vote.
Trump seems to be making a halfway decent attempt at it with his praise of Hezbollah.
Keir Starmer has basically said Israel can do whatever the hell it it likes
I don't think he has really He's said publicly
"I think that Israel does have that right, it is an ongoing situation, obviously everything should be done within international law but I don't want to step away from the core principles that Israel has the right to defend herself."
And people with vested interests on either side of the debate are using it to either condemn him or support him.
The tit for tat escalates until it creates another angry generation.
And if we think we're immune from that we're not. The UK's and western support for this is going to result in a new wave of Islamic terrorism in our own countries, with all the resultant erosion of human rights, increase in authoritarianism and surveillance, and sectarian divides within our communities. What a shitshow.
I don’t think he has really He’s said publicly
Well I hope to be corrected. I'll be looking forward to his calls for restraint and condemnation of ethnic cleansing.
I’m horrified by the tactics used by the IDF, but I don’t think for a second that any other militarised right wing govt would do anything different.
I can't agree. Even under a neo-con administration the United States has never behaved in the Middle East in the way that Israel currently is.
I guess at least one big difference is that the Israeli government can afford to ignore public opinion, United States governments cannot.
Labour are terrified of the antisemitic/Corbyn tag
Maybe it would have been better if the last leader hadn't been so relaxed about taking money from Iranian state TV, calling Hamas "friends", and having an advisor who publicly praised Hamas...
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/04/jeremy-corbyn-says-he-regrets-calling-hamas-and-hezbollah-friends
The scale and sophistication of the attack required a lot of planning, and there were no warnings?
Tin foil hat time. Israel knew about it and let it happen as it has given them the perfect reason for now wiping out Hamas - maybe they underestimated the Israeli death toll but it was a means to an end.
They couldn't just invade Gaza and wipe out Hamas unprovoked could they.
And if we think we’re immune from that we’re not.
Yep. I'm scared for several reasons.
calling Hamas “friends”, and having an advisor who publicly praised Hamas…
You have just linked to a 7 year old article, the current pro-Israeli Tory government decided less than two years ago that Hamas was a terrorist organisation. The EU has provided funds for Hamas.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67096916
The young Palestinian girl injured, crying, reminded me of my own niece. I cried last night when I saw this..
This is not right, civilians shall not be legitimate targets for either side.
Stop the madness.
The UK’s and western support for this is going to result in a new wave of Islamic terrorism in our own countries
Has there ever been a wave of terrorism in the UK linked to Palestine?
I find it slightly baffling that the west (USA and Europe) are so vocal in their support of modern Israel. It feels to me like its just tipping fuel on an already unstable fire.
I’m horrified by the tactics used by the IDF, but I don’t think for a second that any other militarised right wing govt would do anything different.
I'm sorry Nick, I usually think you're on point but with this you're way off. Same with the references to 9/11.
Park the clearly emotional responses to this, and the history lessons for a moment.
What would you do if you where the bod at the top, and someone just murdered 3000 of your citizens? Or carried out this current attack?
Sit on your hands and say "well we might have deserved it?"
Let's not allow luxury beliefs and the relative safety we live in and the isualtion we have from that level of responsibility take a measured discssion to fantasy land.
The response is appropriate, it's the methodology that is flawed and illegal.
The majority of Jewish voters in the US are opposed to the current Israeli government policy of further colonization in Occupied Palestine
Those guys in the photo - Naturei Karta - are a tiny subgroup of a religious fringe. Like all extremists, they are absolutely bonkers, hanging out in Tehran with holocaust deniers. Using them to illustrate a claim about mainstream US Jewish opinion is extremely disingenous.
Israel's situation isn't the US's. Multiple invasions by a coalation of all of her neighbours, and in Hamas an opponent that has this in its charter: "Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea."
So I also think that any other militarised right wing govt wouldn't do anything different. What's needed is a goverment that holds back, but Israel doesn't have that.
Tin foil hat time. Israel knew about it and let it happen as it has given them the perfect reason for now wiping out Hamas
This is just recycling 9/11 conspiracy theory. Did a man in a petrol station tell you not to go to Manchester on Friday because you lent him a pound?
This is just recycling 9/11 conspiracy theory. Did a man in a petrol station tell you not to go to Manchester on Friday because you lent him a pound?
Yeah, it's not like Hamas might have an inkling about counter-intelligence awareness courtesy of their associations with Iran.
Sometimes you just need one side to be off their game slightly and it delivers a victory for the other.
If they keep pushing antisemitism to mute their war crimes and murder in Gaza, many will start wearing that lable with pride.
Look at Trump's latest narrative, say what you want about him, but he's an excellent weathervane of latent public opinion.
Also, where the **** are a million people supposed to move to? How can the UK and the US allow this ethnic cleansing? What appalling hypocrites and cowards they are.
I find it slightly baffling that the west (USA and Europe) are so vocal in their support of modern Israel. It feels to me like its just tipping fuel on an already unstable fire.
It is about the region being vital to the US and Europe, there are no similar concerns about the rest of the African continent.
The Western government support for Israel is nothing more than political posturing. The UK has announced that it is giving military assistance to Israel, as Israel launches its attack on 2 million mostly unarmed civilians.
Militarily Israel is one of the most powerful nations on earth, yesterday Israeli warplanes were bombing Syria, Israel certainly don't need any military assistance from the UK.
Edit: No not warplanes...... Israel launched a missile strike on Syria yesterday.
So, what is the worst case scenario here?
I’m happy to go on the record to utterly condemn Netanyahu’s govts actions.
Same here, it sickens me.