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Never mind the arguing on here over pithy little verbal spats. There’s a horrendous humanitarian crisis going on in Gaza right now
This. If you’ve not seen it, then watch the footage from inside Gaza on channel 4 news. It’s absolutely horrendous! The Israelis have just completely levelled entire areas of Gaza City. That’s not ‘targeted’, it’s utterly indiscriminate. It may or may not be hitting Hamas targets but it’s wiping out countless innocent men women and children in the process. And all while they have no water or electricity.
If they’re calling Hamas ‘human animals’, which given their behaviour is an understandable comment, then it applies to the IDF at the moment in spades. It’s absolutely horrific!
The leaders on both sides seemed to have willingly embarked on a self-perpetuating cycle of violence, without seeming to give a shit about the civilians on both sides caught between them.
It’s medieval barbarism from both sides
Quite barbaric reading about Hamas just killing all those festival goers. They surely knew there would be retaliation for what they did.
When it comes to medieval barbarism, Hamas have taken the gold medal here. What Israel have done doesn't even get close.
TomD has it right, this was about more than just revenge, it's too horrific to be just that, and these people (if they can be even called that, beheading babies in front of their parents makes it hard for me to see them as the same species) they cant be reasoned with, cant be reliably contained, and unfortunately can't be irradicated without huge loss of innocent Palestinian lives. So that's what we'll get, and yes it'll probably create more long term problems but in the immediate term Israel's response will be brutal, and one way or another Gaza will be an even bigger hell hole than it already clearly is. I can't see too many western world leaders trying to hold them back.
Quite barbaric reading about Hamas just killing all those festival goers. They surely knew there would be retaliation for what they did
Nobody is defending that as it’s totally indefensible, but by retaliating with equal barbarity, where does that end up?
A death-spiral into total inhumanity and depravity, that’s where.
They’re both - and I mean the leaders of the Israeli government and Hamas here - as bad as each other. They seem embarked on a pissing competition involving the killing of innocent civilians
I couldn't give stuff about Hamas, Israelis, Hezbollah or Western government policies. What I do give a stuff about are the families trying to stay alive while the media watches their world blown apart.
Sorry for the emotive language but sometimes, like now, I absolutely ******* despair.
While agreeing that the Israeli response and behaviour in general is wrong in many ways, I still see lots of condemnation with no alternative suggestions.
Disregarding the reasons that led to this situation, here are some facts: You have an extremist group that are in your towns murdering everyone they see, babies, elderly, anyone. Deliberately and brutally. This group is deeply entrenched in a mostly innocent population and when not actually shooting, are indistinguishable from said innocents. They also fire rockets from within heavily populated areas.
What do you do now?
Really, in an ideal (but realistic) world?
Immediately withdraw from all these areas and give them to the Palestinians? Give equal rights and full freedom of movement within Israel to everyone in Gaza?
It's like some people think that would be a magic solution and they'd all live together happily ever after in peace and harmony.
No, I don't have any ideas either.
I think most people would agree there’s a significant difference between the tactics uses by Ukraine, which appear to be small, targetted at millitary installations (with very few civilian casualties) and controlled, with the approach used last weekend, which was for the large part a deliberate attack against unarmed civilians with no link to military targets. I’d not have a problem with Hamas trying to blow up a site used to launch rockets at them, but running round killing people at a festival is a long way from that.
That's a good point and I agree with that.
I don't think the rampage by Hamas is excusable in any way, shape or form. Reading up about how they slaughtered the festival goers just defies belief.
That said, the point you make about "the tactics" used by the Ukraine being "small, targetted at millitary installations (with very few civilian casualties) and controlled" is the polar opposite of how Israel conducts its 'operations' in Gaza.
I doubt close observers of Israel-Palestine over the past months and years will be much surprised by this attack, save for the apparent total failure of Netanyahu’s government to have prevented it.
It was obvious that the situation was boiling over and instead of diplomacy and measured response, the current government choose to pour gasoline over the flames.
How it plays out from here who knows, but it the only real winners I can see who walk away from this are Hamas and Netanyahu's extremists.
I doubt close observers of Israel-Palestine over the past months and years will be much surprised by this attack, save for the apparent total failure of Netanyahu’s government. It seemed obvious that the situation was boiling over and instead of diplomacy and measured response, the current government choose to pour gasoline over the flames.
How it plays out from here who knows, but it the only real winners I can see who walk away from this are Hamas and Netanyahu’s extremists
I'd say that this is pretty much sums it up. Unfortunately, this carnage was inevitable from the day Netanyahu went to bed with the various right wing extremists he needed to keep his corrupt administration in power
What's astonishing is how Biden is basically condoning war crimes. The takeway quote from the UN for me is:
In line with its previous findings, the Commission emphasises that the only path towards ending violence and achieving sustainable peace is through addressing the root causes of the conflict including through ending the illegal occupation of Palestinian territory and recognising the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination.
Hamas must have known that by committing such atrocities, the response would be unthinkable for the Palestinian people.
So, what is the end game? One can only wonder if it was to launch an attack so heinous that it would elicit such a storm of violence against Gaza that it will trigger some sort of wider conflict which could lead to a significantly different political landscape.
So, what is the end game? One can only wonder if it was to launch an attack so heinous that it would elicit such a storm of violence against Gaza that it will trigger some sort of wider conflict which could lead to a significantly different political landscape.
Hamas' whole thing is bringing about the end of the world and annihilation of the Jews. You don't have to wonder what their end game is they tell you at every opportunity.
I'm unsure if Israel has widespread support in the US and many Americans probably wonder why every year it rains almost 4 billion USD on their military, although clearly AIPAC is both highly influential and very effective.
In any case, the only person that can prevent a total catastrophe in Gaza is Biden, but in what he said today, he's effectively signed it off. The results from here on will be tragic.
What we’re watching now is somehow part of Hamas’s game plan. God know what they’re trying to achieve, but this was a carefully planned attack in which they chose to target civilians and take hostages back to Gaza.
Of course Israel’s government didn’t have to respond as they did. They could’ve chosen restraint, simply driving back the attackers, but of course they did not.
But Hamas also has the power to stop the humanitarian crisis. Instead they’re firing rockets from built up areas and threatening to kill the hostages they took. This is what they want.
But they may have failed if their aim was to provoke Israel into acting with such brutality that the international community was horrified into action. If the reports from the Kfar Aza kibbutz are confirmed, Hamas will certainly end up more isolated than ever.
Quite a few here with luxury opinions and no skin in the game.
Best just to offer support and be quiet.
Best just to offer support and be quiet.
Both "eh?" And "no"
Quite a few here with luxury opinions and no skin in the game.
Cheers dits.
I’m unsure if Israel has widespread support in the US and many Americans probably wonder why every year it rains almost 4 billion USD on their military
You may want to read up about The Rapture. The American evangelicals, of which there are many, believe that on the second coming (any day now, honest…) the Jews will all convert to Christianity
Just to throw another piece of religious nut-jobbery into the mix
I honestly think they should just give half the world over to those who don’t believe in any of this nonsense and let the other lot fight it out for eternity in the other half about who’s got the best imaginary friend
^ The above post is greatly appreciated both by those of us here who are nutjobs and those fighting in Israel/Gaza who are mostly not religious.
👍
I’m unsure if Israel has widespread support in the US
It does but it is overwhelmingly among elderly right-wingers:
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2022/07/11/american-views-of-israel/
I think what many people probably don't appreciate though is just how critical of Israel much of the Jewish community in the United States is. The obvious high profile example is Bernie Sanders but the majority of American Jews don't apparently support Israeli government policy in the occupied territories.
It is a point which sadly I often have to remind some of my left-wing friends.
You’re wasting your time trying to explain anything more complicated than ‘my enemies enemy is my friend’ to a tankie, as this thread has so depressingly proved
On a more worrying front, interviews with both Hamas leaders (on channel 4 news) and Israeli government ministers (on Newsnight) have them both talking in the kind of language that boxers use in the press conference a week before a fight.
God (or Allah or whoever… ) help the poor bastards caught in the middle between these two gangs of furiously posturing ‘Hard Man’ lunatics.
do not seem to hold pro-Israel positions
I’ll keep this short. Being pro the right for Israel to continue to exist as a home
state for the Jewish people is quite normal for Democrats. Supporting Israel in simply existing and defending itself is entirely uncontroversial in the USA. What is meant here as a “pro-Israel position” is being supportive of right wing governments in Israel and their wider aims and actions, especially as regards annexation and expansion, and effectively rejecting a two state solution. That many in a Democrat administration do not do so is unsurprising.
The Biden Administration has a hugely disproportionate number of Jews in it, in fact I believe that the majority might be Jewish
This is simply not true. Stop repeating anti-semitic propaganda.
President Biden’s Cabinet is set to make history in a number of ways.
If all the nominees he has chosen are confirmed, the Cabinet — including the vice president, the heads of 15 executive departments and eight other key positions — will be the most racially and ethnically diverse ever. Among them are six African Americans, four Hispanics, three Asian Americans and one Native American.
Half the nominees are women — the most ever nominated for a presidential Cabinet.
In terms of their religious backgrounds, the Cabinet nominees are also diverse. Like Biden, the majority — at least eight — are Catholic.
But five Jews have also been nominated, two Black Baptists and, if the surgeon general is included (often not), two Hindus. (A handful of Cabinet picks do not appear to identify with any religion.)
One group not represented? White evangelicals, the group most loyal to President Donald Trump.
benosBut they may have failed if their aim was to provoke Israel into acting with such brutality that the international community was horrified into action. If the reports from the Kfar Aza kibbutz are confirmed, Hamas will certainly end up more isolated than ever.
Even if Hamas fails there are many that will take their place willing by learning from their past mistakes. Even if Hamas is totally wiped out, the conflict will never cease as the bruised pride is simply too severe. No matter what defensive systems Israel have, the systems will not last forever to protect them and will only be prolonging the inevitable.
Bear in mind Israel is perceived by many in the Islamic world as an "artificial inserted" state created by the past colonial masters to "police" the region. Israel is also considered as a recent phenomena after WWII, hence it is still fresh in the mind of many. The Palestinian see this as unjust and and they want the land back regardless and it is "non" negotiable. Israeli can argue as much as they wish that God has given them the land etc and they are the chosen ones, but this has no effect whatsoever on desperate people around them. Even if they are the most intelligent people in the world it will come at a cost of peace.
Problem with Israel in recent time is their approach in systematically choking the life out of the remaining Palestinians. The intention is to make their living so unbearable they migrate or move into neighbouring states. No need to use violence but merely applying indirect pressure to living using system of governance. The problem with this is that their neighbours understand them too well to see them coming.
There is no intention to have two state solution because that is simply ungovernable. The two state solution is simply unworkable.
The only way to have a period of peace is to divide up the land up to the North and South whatever and even this is just to negotiate for a short term peace of perhaps for several hundred years, if that is possible.
There will be no peace before war.
...how critical of Israel much of the Jewish community in the United States is. The obvious high profile example is Bernie Sanders...
WTF are you wittering on about? Biden is a devout Catholic. You're a textbook example of starting with a conclusion and working back from there. What's your motive?
Reading comprehension fail. As you were... 🤦🏻♂️
The whole thing is utterly horrific.
One thing that has struck me though is the BBC coverage - it seems rather biased towards favouring Israel - appears to be maximising coverage of the losses suffered by Israel and playing down those in Gaza.
Christ. The US is sending a carrier strike force to the Eastern Med in support of Israel.
The group has been in the Med since June allegedly, not something I follow but have just seen a statement claiming as such. (Some 1/2 million subscriber former 6th Fleet USN YouTube guy)
Not sure if that really changes the significance of the groups movements, but it was something already fairly close to events.
Grant Shapps on BBC news now explicitly agreeing with Israel’s description of the Palestinians as “human animals”.
God know what they’re trying to achieve
The worlds attention focussed on the conflict
Stopping the “normalisation talks” going on between Israel and Saudi Arabia
return of Hamas and Palestinian prisoners
check in the box for the first two, given that Netanyahu has exchanged 1000 of Palestinians for 1 soldier in the past, I’d imagine they’re pretty confident of the third
oh and if you can provoke Israel into a disproportionate revenge attack as well that’s probably something Hamas would be content with
What is meant here as a “pro-Israel position” is being supportive of right wing governments in Israel and their wider aims and actions, especially as regards annexation and expansion,
Yup, definitely. Criticism of Israel is often interpreted as not being "pro-Israel", especially by hard-line Zionists. It is even often interpreted as being anti-semitism - see disciplinary action taken in the Labour Party.
I totally agree that the idea that the Biden administration isn't "pro-Israel" is ridiculous. It highlights just how sensitive the Israeli government and the hard-right are.
Reading comprehension fail. As you were… 🤦🏻♂️
Thank you for the correction 👍
God knows what they’re trying to achieve
1. Serve God - they believe they are in a holy war and this is God's work
2. Kill all the Jews and establish an Islamic state, or revel in the end of days either is fine because God will sort the Jews out then
3. Their own deaths - because that gets you to paradise anyway
hugely disproportionate number of Jews in it, in fact I believe that the majority might be Jewish
This is simply not true. Stop repeating anti-semitic propaganda.
I was simply repeating the claim made in the article :
"While the Jews working with Biden are a relative majority in his administration"
Anti-semitic? Well the article doesn't seem to be in the slightest bit anti-semitic, I certainly would not have posted a link to it if I thought it was anti-semitic.
I always try to investigate the motives/background of authors of articles before posting a link but in this case I found it difficult to establish:
https://adnanabuamer.com/post/5936/israel-concerned-about-jewish-officials-in-biden-administration
I am more than happy to be corrected that Jews working with Biden are not a relative majority in his administration.
In fact I would be very grateful if you have a link which shows what the exact percentage is. I recently had an extremely heated argument with a friend who claimed that 70% of the Biden administration was Jewish. I told him not to be ridiculous, it would be great if I could show him the actual figure.
Edit: There appears to be a very large percentage of Jews in Biden's administration according to the Jewish Virtual Library, which I feel very confident isn't anti-semitic:
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jews-in-the-biden-administration
No idea what percentage that totals though. I do know that 2.4% of the American population is considered Jewish, which is really quite small.
What we’re watching now is somehow part of Hamas’s game plan. God know what they’re trying to achieve
Pretty sure their hope now is firstly Hezbollah + Palestinians in the West Bank will join in with attacks on Israel (in a much bigger way than they are now) once Israeli invades the Gaza Strip and continues murdering Palestinian civilians whilst trying to root out Hamas. I'd expect they're then hoping that escalation will trigger Israel escalating it's attacks in Lebanon and in turn that brings Iran into the conflict.
What that does for them long term, at this point I don't think they care - not just the West but increasingly Arab states have given Israel a free pass to oppress Palestinians. I guess they feel they have nothing left to lose at this point. Just to make it clear though I don't think their actions since Saturday are justified and some of the acts they've committed are truly barbaric and no member of Hamas deserves any sympathy for what's to come. But if Hamas are supposedly around 30,000 in their military wing vs 2,000,000 Palestinians in the Gaza Strip I don't really understand how, in 2023, the West seems to be fine treating them as collateral damage to allow Israel to exact their revenge.
Christ. The US is sending a carrier strike force to the Eastern Med in support of Israel.
Apparently it’s just a ‘don’t even think about it’ show of strength in case the Iranians are thinking of chipping in
It’s not about revenge it’s about bringing about the end of days. If this starts a regional conflagration that’s job done for them regardless of how many die.
I think it’s almost impossible for secular people to understand how religious extremists think. When they talk about all the righteous end of days stuff and martyrdom they really, really mean it.
And this mindset is not restricted to the region, it is shared by a large chunk of evangelical neo-con types in the States, who see all-out war in the Middle East as a precondition for the second coming, and will be quite happy to add as much fuel to that particular fire as possible.
From 2008 till September 2023, 6,407 Palestinians were recorded to have been killed, more than half through missile attacks. During the same period, the UN recorded the death of 308 Israelis in conflict situations.
Much as I despise the actions of Hamas, the IDF have been not exactly using a proportionate response over the years.
No power, hospital facilities, food or water in the Gaza strip, so there's a massive humanitarian crisis created by Hamas and the IDF, again no winners in this one.
Quite a few here with luxury opinions and no skin in the game.
Best just to offer support and be quiet.
I disagree. Firstly this is about our fellow human beings, and on a pragmatic level wars in other parts of the world affect us in a number of ways. Secondly "offer support" - to who, and why, or are you suggesting basic hand-wringing "oh dear, how terrible". Thirdly, being quiet in the face of genocide hasn't worked in the past and is unlikely to work in the future.
Apparently it’s just a ‘don’t even think about it’ show of strength in case the Iranians are thinking of chipping in
And to aid where required the extraction of US Citizens. The US military has already been directed to provide intelligence support to aid the recovery of hostages.
I guess they feel they have nothing left to lose at this point.
Again, this is applying a kind of belief system and primacy of self preservation that they don't follow. They would see it as having everything to gain (eternal paradise at best, killing lots of jews at worst) rather than nothing to lose.
I disagree. Firstly this is about our fellow human beings, and on a pragmatic level wars in other parts of the world affect us in a number of ways. Secondly “offer support” – to who, and why, or are you suggesting basic hand-wringing “oh dear, how terrible”. Thirdly, being quiet in the face of genocide hasn’t worked in the past and is unlikely to work in the future.
Quite. But I would urge posters to be mindful of 'the game looks different on the field than from the stands' concept when posting their rhetoric.
It helps keep the shithousery to a minimum.
MrsMC's aunt and cousins are in touch and safe - far enough north to be out of the immediate danger zone.
Her cousins kids have been called up though. Just a couple of years older than my own kids.
God knows what they’re trying to achieve
Hamas has been failing in Palestine. In 2019 and again in July and August there were protests against Hamas in Gaza by Palestinians wanting to improve their standard of living https://www.timesofisrael.com/protests-against-hamas-reemerge-in-the-streets-of-gaza-but-will-they-persist
Hamas is also under threat politically from opposition groups including some affiliated with Islamic Jihad and the PLO
Their other motivation is the increasing number of peace agreements between Israel and other countries in the region, the latest being discussions with Saudi Arabia. The more peace agreements that exist, the less relevant Hamas becomes because of the external pressure on them to make peace
Neither Israel nor Hamas can win the war, 75 years of history show that, but Hamas stands to gain most from their barbarous attack
The Israeli Government decision to counter-attack may help to strengthen Hamas because Hamas will (they hope) be seen as the only group to defend Palestine. Other countries may turn away from peace agreements, which also benefits Hamas and third-party countries backing Hamas
MrsMC’s aunt and cousins are in touch and safe – far enough north to be out of the immediate danger zone.
Her cousins kids have been called up though. Just a couple of years older than my own kids.
My cousin, who lives in Israel was due to get out of there to UK with her two young kids last night but the flight was cancelled, not sure if it is war related or a consequence of Luton closing.
Again, this is applying a kind of belief system and primacy of self preservation that they don’t follow.
Just because you keep repeating something doesnt make it any more accurate than the last time you said it.
Since Hamas has been in existence since the late 80s clearly they do have some sense of self preservation that you are discounting. Their front line troops might not but those who are in senior positions do which can be demonstrated by the fact they are in senior positions and not dead several years back.
It's depressing to see that some posters here are still choosing to focus only on Hamas, and ignore the atrocities currently being committed by the IDF. It's clear that such people have a particular agenda to push, but this is not at all helpful; nobody here is denying the barbarism of Hamas militants/terrorists/whatever you want to call them, but it's utterly pointless only focussing on that because it does nothing to further the discussion as to how solutions can be found.
You are completely misunderstanding Hamas. They are Islamists first and foremost who believe God will take almighty vengeance on the Jews when the apocalypse comes
I'd really like people to try not to use the term 'Islamist' when talking about extremist terrorists. These people are a tiny fraction of those who follow Islam, and theirs is a highly distorted version anyway. So can we stop conflating them with all other Muslims please. Because using such terms fuels the Islamophobia that has swept the western world over the last 20+ years, and helps feed into a narrative that Islam = bad. Nobody uses the terms 'Christianism' or 'Jewism' to describe extremism within those cultures.
It is encouraging to see many people taking a more objective and nuanced view of the situation. The only good to come out of this will be if people take it upon themselves to learn, and understand, more. Because that's the only way we're ever going to achieve any form of effective long term solution.
Well I'm glad I've been banned for the last few days. Nothing much to say other than the indiscriminate murder of civilians on both sides tells it's own story. Anyone who can't look at that with objectivity and universal horror needs to take a look at themselves. And now we have the apparent intention of a supposedly developed and enlightened nation state to starve two million people, and some people on here excuse that as a 'tactic of war'.
Hats off to Ernie (and other lone voices) BTW for remaining calm and resolute in the face of some quite disgraceful slurs, insults and abuse. I've learned recently that if someone takes even mild offence at something they see on here they'll report it and the posters will/may be banned. I'll be taking that action on any offensive comments or abuse aimed at people who hold a balanced and objective view of this horrific situation.
I’d really like people to try not to use the term ‘Islamist’ when talking about extremist
no
Nobody uses the terms ‘Christianism’ or ‘Jewism’ to describe extremism within those cultures.
we've had people discuss Christian and Jewish extremism through this thread
we’ve had people discuss Christian and Jewish extremism through this thread
I see your agenda is simply to argue and not discuss anything. This, I find sad. But in case you genuinely did misunderstand; my point was about how Christian and Jewish extremism aren't labelled in the same way Muslim/Islamic extremism is, certainly in Western media. I've explained why the term 'Islamist' is offensive, to me at least. I'd just like people to take a moment to consider that.
Without discounting the horrors of what's going on, the rhetoric is fascinating:
intruder v settler, militant v soldier, extremist, jihadist, babies, controlling border v slaughter etc etc
People get whipped up by the reporting and then we get all the contumely, guilt by association, banning, time-outs, book burning. Prejudices and hatred become acceptable and normalised.
No point in hand-wringing for the fate of innocent Palestinians now, Hamas have sealed the fate of Gaza, Israel has guaranteed US backup and will act without any consideration for external opinion.
Hamas = ISIS now, this attack has blown through any pretence of them being oppressed freedom fighters and shown them for the sub-human butchers they are. Literal vermin.
There is no moral equivalency between how Israel have behaved towards Palestine and the act of slaughtering babies in front of their families, not to mention the inevitable hideous fate awaiting the hostages. There is no scenario that justifies this attack, its real next level barbarism and it brings the human psyche back to medieval times. No amount of 'whatabout Israel' changes this.
Hamas are now a cancer on the modern world and there is no room for liberalism in dealing with them.
No point in hand-wringing for the fate of innocent Palestinians now, Hamas have sealed the fate of Gaza, Israel has guaranteed US backup and will act without any consideration for external opinion.
Hamas = ISIS now, this attack has blown through any pretence of them being oppressed freedom fighters and shown them for the sub-human butchers they are. Literal vermin.
There is no moral equivalency between how Israel have behaved towards Palestine and the act of slaughtering babies in front of their families, not to mention the inevitable hideous fate awaiting the hostages. There is no scenario that justifies this attack, its real next level barbarism and it brings the human psyche back to medieval times. No amount of ‘whatabout Israel’ changes this.
Hamas are now a cancer on the modern world and there is no room for liberalism in dealing with them.
What do you hope to achieve with such a post, other than to antagonise and deepen division?
No point in hand-wringing for the fate of innocent Palestinians now
The dehumanisation of civilians is no different whether it's Hamas looking at Israeli jews as sub-human, or vice versa. All you're doing here is joining in.
There is no scenario that justifies this attack
I've read every single post on this thread and at no point have I seen a single contributor trying to justify the Hamas attack. If I'm wrong then please post quotes to prove it.
It'll achieve nothing, same as every other post on any forum anywhere.
And I dont see anything antagonistic, just stating facts. I'm certainly not saying whatever comes next for Gaza is justified, but I'm seeing a lot of 'whatabout Israel' here and my point is the attack is so beyond the pale that 'whatabout Israel' becomes a moot point in the face this weekend's horror show.
What do you hope to achieve with such a post, other than to antagonise and deepen division?
Some people just can't understand, their hatred is all consuming.
If there was evidence of Hamas eating Israeli babies alive it would not diminish my support for the rights of the Palestinian people.
In the same way that there is no atrocity that the IDF can commit that would diminish my support for the rights of Jews anywhere in the world.
The only hatred which I feel is against racism and injustice, not "a people".
Christian and Jewish extremism aren’t labelled in the same way Muslim/Islamic extremism is, certainly in Western media.
Have you considered why that might be? Is anyone attacking the West in the name of Christ?
this weekend’s horror show.
For you it might be "this weekend's horror show". For many it is a decades old horror show.
Gerald Kaufman speaking to the House of Commons over 20 years ago:
"It is time to remind Sharon that the Star of David belongs to all Jews, not to his repulsive Government. His actions are staining the star of David with blood. The Jewish people, whose gifts to civilised discourse include Einstein and Epstein, Mendelssohn and Mahler, Sergei Eisenstein and Billy Wilder, are now symbolised throughout the world by the blustering bully Ariel Sharon, a war criminal implicated in the murder of Palestinians at the Sabra and Shatila camps and now involved in killing Palestinians once again."
Today, more than twenty years later, the situation is even worse for the Palestinian people, with an even more right-wing and anti-Palestinian Israeli government.
And I dont see anything antagonistic, just stating facts
This is disingenuous and you know it. And it's also disrespectful to others, who have for the most part been pretty fair and open-minded.
I’m seeing
And I think this is what is colouring your judgement; you are seeing what you choose to see, according to the agenda you've decided upon. And this isn't getting anywhere. You're entitled to your own opinions, that's fine. As long as you understand that others can and will disagree and hold other opinions. And that by voicing your opinions, you reveal your own character.
Is anyone attacking the West in the name of Christ?
Militarily? Not really. Politically, especially in the US? Absolutely.
its real next level barbarism and it brings the human psyche back to medieval times.
It is indeed! Nobody is saying otherwise. But is flattening entire areas of a densely populated city, full of innocent civilians, with huge bombs launched from F-16s any less barbaric?
How about cutting off water, electricity and medical supplies to the entire countries population at the same time, so the hospitals (and everything else) can't function?
That's all pretty barbaric to me
As has been said may times: there are no winners here. Both sides are embarked on a cycle of ever-increasing brutality
The only real solution to all of this is one we'll never countenance.
Secular government, separation of church and state. An Israel for everyone - complete freedom of religion and equality of humans under a secular government for all.
No religion deserves a homeland of it's own. Not Christianity, not Islam, not Judaeism, not Bhuddism. None of those broken and disgusting belief systems. People should be free to follow them as blindly as they like. But government should be blind to religion - and govern for all.
Is anyone attacking the West in the name of Christ?
Close enough for you?
In a January 2023 sermon, Patriarch Kirill predicted the Russian invasion would leave the Russian Orthodox Church triumphant in Ukraine and warned: “there will be no trace left of the schismatics because they are fulfilling the devil’s evil bidding of eroding Orthodoxy on Kyivan land.”
I'd be broadly in agreement with that whataboutism, up until the weekend. Bad things happen in conflict, Israel have behaved appallingly at times but for me its now clear it doesn't matter what they do or have done they would still be targeted by butchers who's only goal is to murder them.
Do you honestly believe if Israel caved to world opinion and treat Palestine the way their supporters want them to everything would sort itself out and Hamas would start acting like a modern government rather than medieval butchers? If so I have a bridge to sell you.
Hamas would start acting like a modern government rather than medieval butchers? If so I have a bridge to sell you
Hamas might not but then they would get marginalised and become irrelevant. More likely they would transition from armed conflict into Politics (see IRA in Ireland).
Well have to agree to strongly disagree on that one.
Do you honestly believe if Israel caved to world opinion and treat Palestine the way their supporters want them to everything would sort itself out and Hamas would start acting like a modern government rather than medieval butchers?
No.
However, surely the answer can't be to flatten Gaza and everyone in it. And however vile the Hamas atrocities are, we can still feel for the innocents there.
What the heck is the thinking behind the suggestion (and more worryingly the uptake) that UK local authorities fly the Israeli flag on their buildings? How can that do anything but wind up whole sections of their community? [BBC story on Sheffield Council and someone svaling a flagpole]
What the heck is the thinking behind ...
UK government supports Israel. Let's fly a flag, like everyone does with Ukraine.
"Local government does stupid thing without thinking it through properly at all"
Shock news 😛
Just over three years ago people all over the world united against an unprecedented threat, Now look at the f#####g state of us,
Regards the blockade and not letting aid/power/etc into Gaza, I don't think it's purely for punishment/retaliation or whatever.
Hamas have a proven track record for appropriating this stuff for their own use, at the expense of the Gazan population. While this may be a reason it's certainly not the best choice but unfortunately I doubt it's Israel's highest priority to sort out right now. Hopefully this will be short lived and they'll figure out some way to get stuff in safely asap.
A couple of old links:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/feb/06/gaza-un-aid-hamas
https://www.timesofisrael.com/cement-for-rebuilding-gaza-diverted-to-attack-tunnels/
There are more recent and more detailed examples that I can't find right now.
Do you honestly believe if Israel caved to world opinion and treat Palestine the way their supporters want them to everything would sort itself out and Hamas would start acting like a modern government rather than medieval butchers? If so I have a bridge to sell you.
Never mind about selling bridges, you have to be naive in the very extreme to believe that this has nothing to do with the repression of the Palestinians and the huge injustices which as a people they suffer under.
And as for Hamas's short-term demands for a long-term truce an article in the Guardian newspaper by a senior lecturer in Israeli studies and head of the Centre for Jewish Studies at Soas, the University of London, claims:
In 2018, Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar sent a note in Hebrew to Israel’s prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, suggesting he take a “calculated risk” by agreeing a long-term truce. While Netanyahu agreed to some easing of pressure on Gaza, he was unwilling to accept Hamas’s long-term demands, including a large-scale prisoner swap, lifting the siege by opening the international border crossing, and establishing a port and airport in Gaza. After 16 years of siege and several catastrophic rounds of war, in which thousands of Gaza residents have been killed, Hamas may be hoping to break the deadlock.
What exactly is unreasonable about Hamas's demands for a large-scale prisoner swap, lifting the siege by opening the international border crossing, and establishing a port and airport in Gaza, in return for a long-term truce?
What is so outrageous about Hamas's demand to be allowed to have an airport in Gaza, a territory which Israel official, and falsely, claims it doesn't occupy?
Seriously, can you provide an explanation beyond the fact that huge open prisons don't usually have airports in the middle of them?
However many prisoners Hamas has captured in the last few days it won't compare the two million that Israel is holding captive, with no hope of release, in Gaza.
It’s clear that such people have a particular agenda to push
@brownperson this is as true of you as it is of anyone else here.
This was the first thing you said on this thread, without any condemnation of Hamas’s brutal actions:
Hamas militants rarely venture far into Israeli territory, and seldom with such vigour and speed. But these attacks only mirror what Palestinians have been enduring for decades; midnight raids, beatings, torture etc. To those only speaking of Hamas’ atrocities, I’d ask why your silence on those committed by the IDF? This is one of the most one-sided conflicts in history, and the tactics being used by Hamas have been learned undoubtedly from their Israeli oppressors. The rape of women, the murder of children; Israeli forces know all about that.
You went straight to accusations and whataboutery, ie justification, saying exactly what’s been said before to try to justify each new cycle of violence. Then a few pages later claimed that no one had been doing that!
The decision to fly the Israeli flag was made after a request from the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities for local authorities to "consider the action", the council said.
The council said the Israeli flag was flown to "show solidarity with the innocent people in that country who face faced appalling acts of terror".
FFS. No innocent folk dying in Gaza as well eh. (for context https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-67075181)
Btw in reference to this:
Hamas would start acting like a modern government rather than medieval butchers
Just out of interest.
If going house to house killing civilians is the work of medieval butchers, what is killing civilians by raining bombs and artillery down on them and totally destroying their houses the work of?
Hi-tech modern butchers?
It seems to me that much of the criticism directly at the Palestinians is actually based on their low-tech methods of killing people - which isn't surprising when you stop to think where both sides source their weaponry from.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing
Israelis gather on hillsides to watch and cheer as military drops bombs on Gaza
They might not have gone door-to-door killing civilians but the result is exactly the same, only with less personal risk attached to it.
Grant Shaps proclaiming support from the British for Israel's military capability. Not in my bloody name.
Some people just can’t understand, their
hatredlack of insight is all consuming.
Israel have behaved appallingly at times but for me its now clear it doesn’t matter what they do or have done they would still be targeted by butchers who’s only goal is to murder them.
That’s where I ended up after many years. The sentiment of “from the river to the sea” has never been far away.
I’ve explained why the term ‘Islamist’ is offensive, to me at least. I’d just like people to take a moment to consider that.
You may well find it offensive (there's no accounting for taste) but no-one is seeking to offend you. "Islamist" is just the English cognate of "Islamiyya", used in Arabic political discourse to denote a specifically political Islam. It does not conflate all Muslims - quite the opposite - it's specifically identifying those who see Islam as not just a religious, but also worldly political, movement.
Have you considered why that might be? Is anyone attacking the West in the name of Christ?
Well, there was that time when Christian fundamentalists slaughtered thousands of non-believers in the heart of the "West". And then that time a generation before when millions were killed in the "West" because they weren't Christian. But not this weekend, I suppose.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre