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Finer said neither the US nor Israel have evidence of direct Iranian involvement, though Iran is “complicit” in backing Hamas for “decades.”
Holds as much water as a WSJ article.
This is the funny thing about proof, in that you need actual evidence, not hearsay, not speculation, Evidence, and of that there appears to be none presently.
Iraq.WMD - That went well.
Its no surprise the Russians/Iran etc are behind the recent conflict/war/slaughter
The only people I've found saying this are the more exictable members of the ukraine focused crowd on twitter
for example: https://twitter.com/berlin_bridge/status/1711012943209328771
It seems there isn't much evidence to support this yet, maybe more will come out. Here's a take by someone who's spent a lot of time studying this:
https://twitter.com/RZimmt/status/1711335860170342865
wasn’t the reason it was put there that jewish people had been kicked out of the area a couple of thousand years previously?
The persecution of Jews does of course go back thousands of years, from the time of the Babylonian exile through to more recent mass expulsions from Spain and finally, in some people's lifetimes, the persecution and mass murder of Jews on an industrial scale by various European governments and their cohorts.
It is worth remembering that for the last couple of thousand years repression and persecution of Jews has almost exclusively been at the hands of Europeans and Russians.
In fact a golden period in Jewish history was when Jews were allowed to live freely and follow their customs and religion in Islamic Spain.
After the fall of Islam in Spain which eventually resulted in all Jews being expelled, the Islamic Ottoman Empire, which stretched across North Africa and the Middle East, offered them refuge and the opportunity to live in peace - something which continued to be denied to them across much of Europe until about 80 years ago.
It should also be remembered that Palestinians are Jews who converted to Christianity and/or Islam. Although there are now very few Christian Palestinians left in Palestine. Presumably Christians have found it easier to immigrate out of Palestine than Muslims.
It seems there isn’t much evidence to support this yet, maybe more will come out. Here’s a take by someone who’s spent a lot of time studying this:
The exact relationship/command structure may be hazy, but Hamas seems have managed to secure quite a bit of kit for this offensive, including drones/paragliders, even some US weaponry that may have come from Afghanistan via the Taliban. It's certainly not a home-grown Gaza effort.
Tactically, this is going nowhere, regardless of brief occupation of some towns around Gaza. It's a 'shock and awe' mission designed to provoke a response. The ordinary people of Gaza obviously do not benefit from this, but who does?
All true Ernie but it's only about religion. Reactionaries try to ossify religion into 'race' (not a term meaningful to anthropologists) and exploit it to benefit whoever's ruling and to divide and weaken the hoi polloi. What is needed is for Israel to show leadership by becoming a democratic secular state where all its people are valued equally.
though Iran is “complicit” in backing Hamas for “decades.”
It should not come as any surprise to anyone that Iran, and other Islamic countries, don't support Israel and instead back the Palestinian resistance.
But Iran's influence over Hamas should not be exaggerated - Iran cannot even get Hamas not to oppose Syria's Bashar al-Assad.
Which IMO is quite a big deal - Iran strongly supports Bashar al-Assad and AFAIK Hezbollah is providing him with military support.
US weaponry that may have come from Afghanistan via the Taliban
Do you have a source for this one? I have some but only russian gov / propaganda sources and then later their western useful idiots. Ditto Ukrainian weapons / aid being used.
What is needed is for Israel to show leadership by becoming a democratic secular state
20 years ago, that might have been possible, The leadership of both Netanyahu and Haniyeh has all but made that a dream, there's to much blood flowing in the streets. While Likud keep winning elections and Haniyeh skims 20% of everything that comes through the tunnels, what incentive has either to make peace? Plus if anything Israel is becoming more religious not less, the demographics of secular Jews vs Frummers is unwinnable
Like it or not, that’s the reality. Israel exists... The only way to achieve a peace settlement is for Israeli moderates to regain power and for moderate Palestinian leaders to accept Israel’s existence and show that they can prevent attacks on Israel from within Palestinian territory.
While I quite agree with you that Hamas rejectionism ignores an immutable reality, it is also worth noting that many extremist/terrorist groups moderate their theoretical position (or just lose popular support) once engaged in a peace process.
Also, "moderate Palestinian leaders" accepted Israel's right to exist 30 years ago in the form of the Oslo I Accord.
Also, a big part of the reason why Hamas is so popular is that Israel undermined "moderate" Palestinian government and civil society by making the PNA unviable, ineffective and tainted by their "collaboration" with the Israelis...and by ensuring Gaza was a prison camp with no possible way to develop or release pressure. No free travel abroad, no secure connection the West Bank, no viable industry. Of course Palestinian society and governments bear their own responsibility for some of these failures and disastrous choices too.
I’m not super clued up on the area, but wasn’t the reason it was put there that jewish people had been kicked out of the area a couple of thousand years previously?
Unfortunately this is the kind of lazy, inaccurate history that results in profound misunderstanding. It is not true, as has suggested as some moments above, that the Jews were all kicked out 2000 years ago and Israelis are just a bunch of Europeans that showed up after WW2 and stole a country called Palestine because they think Jews were there first. All of that is totally wrong, and a few minutes on Wikipedia would have brought you so far.
One thing this discussion illustrates is just how complicated and entrenched this conflict is, with so many reasons for historical bitterness between the two sides. In a situation like Northern Ireland the hardliners on both sides realised, after a generation of fruitless conflict, that accepting a compromise agreement was the least bad option.
Unfortunately in the Palestinian / Israeli case, with the outside parties involved such as Iran and the US feeling so little consequences of supporting a protracted conflict, the situation could rumble on until the next century.
Yep, and how many lives, particularly young lives, will be terminated by these mercenary bastards?
It seems like US will have a really good reason to block Iranian arms exports now.
All true Ernie but it’s only about religion.
No it isn't about religion, over three-quarters of Israel's Jews define themselves as secular.
It is about racism and colonialism.
As I said previously Palestine is the last colony of the great western powers, do you not think it is strange to talk of "settlers" and their rights in 2023?
And why the desperate need to maintain one final western colony? Because of the huge importance of the Middle East to the western powers.
They couldn't give a monkeys about other regions of the world, such as West Africa, no matter what wars are being fought or what human misery is occurring, because other regions of the world don't match the importance the Middle East has to the West.
Israel is one of the greatest military powers on earth, and it is slap bang in the Middle East. It can, and does, keep anti-western sentiments and governments in check.
The Israeli ambassador to the United Nations yesterday made a speech in which he declared that Israel wasn't just fighting to defend itself from Hamas but also fighting for the free world, which is obviously why we should support them.
And that support is based on racism. The Israelis are pretty much European/American, the Palestinians clearly aren't. Yesterday I saw the deputy mayor of Jerusalem, a member of the far-right Likud Party, on the BBC News channel being given a 10 minute platform to give her take on things.
She spoke in absolutely perfect English, which was of no surprise as she is British born and bred. She didn't look particularly Middle Eastern either. You can imagine that many TV viewers would have personally identified with her.
Later a Palestinian politician was interviewed by the BBC (he had a lot more interruptions than the Israeli had) he spoke English with a strong and very obvious accent, and he definitely appeared Middle Eastern. You can imagine that for many viewers he will have been identified as just another foreign Muslim, the sort who arrive in the UK in a small boat.
Race is at the heart of the issue imo, not religion.
Edit: It is worth pointing out that the importance of the Middle East to the West will obviously diminish as the importance of oil also diminishes over time. And there lies the problem for Israel - eventually the world is unlikely to care very much. Not just Western governments but also new emerging super powers/economies such as China and India
Apologies Ernie, I was being simplistic. Hats off to you for holding a consistent line. The ME is always interesting on here. It brings out people who you've never seen on the trails, people with insubstantial understanding who try to conceal their ignorance and/or prejudice by hurling insults and pisstakes, and then the DM type people who read the headlines and start screaming.
On countless occasions I organised lectures by the FoI, mostly the director, and representatives of the Palestinians, not at the same time to give freedom of expression.
Anecdotally, the students tended not to agree with the idea that you could turn the desert green by pulling up olive trees, redirecting water away from Palestinian villages and demolishing their houses.
Unfortunately this is the kind of lazy, inaccurate history that results in profound misunderstanding. It is not true, as has suggested as some moments above, that the Jews were all kicked out 2000 years ago and Israelis are just a bunch of Europeans that showed up after WW2 and stole a country called Palestine because they think Jews were there first. All of that is totally wrong, and a few minutes on Wikipedia would have brought you so far.
after 5 minutes on wikipedia the above is my exact understanding. Most jewish people left the area after the jewish roman wars
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish%E2%80%93Roman_wars
and the idea of coming back started in the late 19th century (A fair bit earlier than your statement),
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism
and we area today where we are due (in a large part) to those 2 facts. What am I missing? I'm not saying someone is right or wrong, but the fact jewish people were mostly in what's now israel 2000 years ago is surely a huge part of the reason why their descendants want to be there now? I don't think the term 'stolen' is helpful, but it wasn't something I said.
One thing this discussion illustrates is just how complicated and entrenched this conflict is
Very much this. I have Israeli friends and colleagues through work and visit every few months. Each time I'm there I learn a little bit more about the people, culture, and challenges and I still don't really understand the depth of it. I spoke to a friend in Tel Aviv this morning and there is one thing for sure - regardless of why or how this has happened it is having a very real affect on ordinary people over there. Most of them have grown up with conflict and are used to it, going to bomb shelters / safe spaces is almost second nature, but they are really worried about the current situation.
No it isn’t about religion, over three-quarters of Israel’s Jews define themselves as secular.
You can't write it out in those sorts of black and white terms, it's not as simple as that, or as cleanly defined. You simply can't can't remove the religious element of this conflict and pretend that's its solely about racism, or ethnicity and settlement- although it is about those things as well. It may suit a political perspective, or that religion is so embarrassingly "olden times" for the 21st C, but for many of the people who are unwilling to support moves to peace on either side, [hatred of others] religion is front and centre of their reasoning.
I’m not saying someone is right or wrong, but the fact jewish people were mostly in what’s now israel 2000 years ago is surely a huge part of the reason why their descendants want to be there now?
Do you really not see a problem with that?
You simply can’t can’t remove the religious element of this conflict
I wouldn't. But I think it plays a very small part. Racism and colonialism* is what lies at the heart imo, not religion. And not least because the overwhelming majority of Israelis don't consider themselves religious.
Edit: And of course geopolitics/scarce resources.
I'm Jewish though not religious.
We have lots of family/friends in Israel, today I watched the funeral of the British 20 year old solider who was murdered yesterday by terrorists not fighters or militants TERRORISTS. I know his parents, watching their faces today was beyond heart-breaking.
The girl that was murdered by terrorists and put on show naked then spat and kicked /250 party goers murdered that's an act of terrorism, how can anyone support that - there will be hundreds of awful stories coming out in the days the days ahead.
You can talk to the cows come home how wrong you think Israel is - however they are not terrorists in anyway they don't parade dead bodies or parade naked teenage girls who have probably been raped.
No war ever ends happily for any side, that's the nature of war.
however they are not terrorists in anyway
I'm not sure everyone would agree, if you look at the number of civilians that have been killed by israel, they are certainly in a dubious area when it comes to war crimes. I'm not sure if that falls into the bucket of terrorism or not, the definition is apparently
the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.
I don't know if the label is helpful, but its not a million miles away
EVERYONE here is as horrified by the actions we witnessed as you are, EVERYONE
But we are also dismayed by the actions of the Israeli government and people that we have all been made acutely aware of that has gone on for the last 60+ years.
People are now demanding answers for those actions over the last 60 years and the only response we are getting is 'Look at what has happened yesterday to those killed or kidnapped'.
As I said previously Palestine is the last colony of the great western powers, do you not think it is strange to talk of “settlers” and their rights in 2023?
And why the desperate need to maintain one final western colony? Because of the huge importance of the Middle East to the western powers.
So, if the whole idea of Israel is to set up a Western Colony to subdue the Muslims, why did the Brits try to prevent Jewish settlers moving to Israel after WW2 & why did we then leave a country we were in control of & when war erupted in 1948 why did the Western powers impose an arms embargo on all belligerents despite Israel being attacked on all sides. I don't think the historical narrative really supports your theory.
I’m Jewish though not religious.
I'm Jewish and religious. Also with family and friends in Israel.
Agree with the Hamas part, not 100% with the Palestine part. Israel certainly aren't blameless here, sadly there's a lot of problems on both sides.
While admitting to not having read this whole thread, or even most of it, there seems to be a lot of talk about blame and history without much thought about what to do now?
Anyone got ideas for solutions? I believe Hamas call for the slaughter of all Israelis (and Jews? not sure) and will not be content with a 2 state solution. These are people who hand out sweets and cheer after "natural response's" like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Itamar_attack
There is years of festering hatred on both sides, since well before the state of Israel was founded. Many innocents on both sides caught up in it.
OK it is Shakespeare's, but Im feeling theres irony in Shylock's speech when placed in the Palestinian perspective.
If you prick us with a pin, don’t we bleed? If you tickle us, don’t we laugh? If you poison us, don’t we die? And if you treat us badly, won’t we try to get revenge? If we’re like you in everything else, we’ll resemble you in that respect
Anyone got ideas for solutions?
the 2 state solution seems like the most likely to work - I think a secular solution is unlikely to work for a group who've been so roundly abused over the years - it feels like a sliperly slope.
Maybe the rest of the world could apply enough sanctions to the countries who aren't complying to the 2-state solution (on both sides) to encourage them to comply? Israel is very connected from an economy perspective, and would do badly if cut off from the rest of the world.
Israel certainly commits war crimes and it certainly carries out collective punishments, both of which can reasonably be described as terrorism. And Israel definitely tries to strike terror into the hearts of the Palestinian people with their regular one-sided onslaughts and turkey shoots into Gaza.
For that reason I consider the IDF to be a terrorist organisation which engages in horrific war crimes and violates international law. I guess the question is whether Hamas is also a terrorist organisation? Well it certainly also engages in horrific war crimes and violates international law, as we have seen recently.
Although it has been less than a year since the UK decided that Hamas as an organisation should be declared terrorist. I guess that must reflect Hamas's fairly low level of terrorism until quite recently for that to take such a long time.
today I watched the funeral of the British 20 year old solider who was murdered yesterday by terrorists not fighters or militants TERRORISTS. I know his parents, watching their faces today was beyond heart-breaking.
I can truly believe how beyond heartbreaking that must have been for those close to him, but the death of a soldier of an occupying force does not necessarily equate with terrorism. It sounds like a legitimate target which is why it isn't necessarily classed as terrorism under international law.
Although I appreciate that such subtleties mean nothing when you have lost someone close to you.
Palestinians also bury their dead - those that are killed, including children, by the IDF. Their tears are just as real as Israeli tears. But yet despite representing far far greater numbers they are extremely unlikely to have any connection with anyone on stw.
Edit: Apologies, it is just under two years since the UK decided to declare the whole of Hamas a terrorist organisation, not one as I had claimed.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59346441
Two states I can see as Israel dominating a dependent and impoverished Palestinian state. Jews live happily with goys all over the world, why can't Israelis live with the locals as equals? If people don't change you will always get what you got. The hasideem seem happy enough opposing zionism and living in Brooklyn and Stamford Hill with allsorts and they have great hats.
The girl that was murdered by terrorists and put on show naked then spat and kicked /250 party goers murdered that’s an act of terrorism, how can anyone support that – there will be hundreds of awful stories coming out in the days the days ahead.
You can talk to the cows come home how wrong you think Israel is – however they are not terrorists in anyway they don’t parade dead bodies or parade naked teenage girls who have probably been raped.
Im sorry, I understand that this is an incredibly emotive subject, and that some people here may well have some personal involvement via relatives, friends etc, but we must be mindful of not obscuring facts here. It has been well documented that Israelis soldiers have committed unspeakable acts and atrocities, including rape, torture, and the desecration of dead bodies. Such events are rarely spoken about in most of the western media, but these events have and continue to take place. I am not for a moment trying to diminish the evils of Hamas, before anyone tries to accuse me of such. But we must remain as objective as possible, to try to understand and not sink to base hatred and anger. To see some of the videos that are being disseminated, makes me feel physically sick. As a Muslim, I have nothing but utter contempt for the sick twisted bastards that are doing this, and terrorising innocent people. When I speak of compassion, empathy and understanding, I know that this can only go so far. As a Muslim, I totally denounce the actions of these individuals; they do not act in the name of Islam and decent people everywhere must not allow them to be associated with the religion and culture. Therefore I think it is important to distinguish Hamas from Islam. They lost their right to call themselves Muslims the moment they decided to murder and terrorise innocent people. For them, there will be no martyrdom.
My wife is Jewish. We are now very concerned about 'retaliatory' actions by ignorant zealots here in London. We live in an area with a prominent Jewish community. I often have to deal with low-level anti-Semitism from ignorant individuals, but the idea that someone might want to kill my wife simply because of her heritage, is one that fills me with anguish. The knowledge that there are so many people in our world, today mourning their loved ones who did nothing wrong, is so upsetting I can't put it into words. Like many, I feel powerless and helpless. So let's all take a step back and have a think about how our words can help, or hurt others. Let's be guided by our compassion and humanity, and not our rage.
Jews live happily with goys all over the world
You must have skipped over the pogroms. And the whole holocaust thing. And the post-1948 expulsion of Jews from Arab countries. Actually the track record of Jews living as a minority among gentiles is a pretty bleak one.
And the ultra-Orthodox in London and NYC that oppose Zionism for religious reasons that you seem to be enthusiastic about are relatively small in number, and not a shining example of multiculturalism, and generally not great people - not because they oppose Zionism, but because they are like all religious fundamentalists - crackers.
the 2 state solution seems like the most likely to work
A 2 state solution in which both states are viable and retain their character would require significant population transfer and no right of return for Palestinians. And a 1 state solution does not offer enough security or anything else for anyone.
OK it is Shakespeare’s, but Im feeling theres irony in Shylock’s speech when placed in the Palestinian perspective.
Deity on a velocipede. Is bringing the most notorious anti-Semitic caricature in the Western canon into the dicussion supposed to shed light?
@politecameraaction thank you. We’re truly into **** me they walk among us stuff now.
Two states? Seen several states in SA apartheid, they called them bantustans. That didn't last so well. Yep, my Israeli rellies see the hasideem as 'parasites' because they wouldn't do military service. I'm an atheist but if you want a big pure dose of religion, they are the boys. Otherwise you're in the territory of 'wrong jew' nonsense etc etc.
How much do you guys think this is helping, and not hurting?
BillMCFull Member<br />Two states?
I doubt there's any chance of two states anymore, its been attempted for the previous 35 years and come to **** all.
Humanity is so messed up. This sort of generational hatred is self perpetuating.
It makes the relative peace in NI all the more remarkable and precious.
I’m wondering when the wests sanctions of it chums in Qatar for hosting the hamas government are starting. I suspect I will have a long wait because hypocrisy and double standards are the forte of the west
So, if the whole idea of Israel is to set up a Western Colony to subdue the Muslims, why did the Brits try to prevent Jewish settlers moving to Israel after WW2 & why did we then leave a country we were in control of & when war erupted in 1948 why did the Western powers impose an arms embargo on all belligerents despite Israel being attacked on all sides. I don’t think the historical narrative really supports your theory.
That is a perfectly valid question. Because geopolitics changes, often massively depending on how things develop.
After the collapse of the Ottoman Empire Britian and France moved in establishing North Africa and the Middle East as regions under their control. They maintained a traditional colonial presence in the region until the end of WW2 changed all that.
At the end of WW2 the only independent country in Africa was Ethiopia which had been liberated from Italian rule. However WW2 had made the whole concept of colonial rule in Africa and the Middle East totally unacceptable.
Britian, and France somewhat more reluctantly in the case of Algeria, accepted this. All the more so as the United States, which had no significant territorial empire and had emerged from WW2 as the most powerful nation of earth, supported decolonisation by Britain and France.
That didn't however mean that British and French neocolonial interests could not be served. Britian did not have any particular interest in Palestine as at that time Palestine had very little to offer the British.
What did interest Britian much more though was countries such as Arabia where they established the pro-British Saudi dictatorship, and Iran where they organised the coup which overthrew the democratically elected government and installed the pro-Western dictatorship of the Shah of Iran. Arabia and Iran obviously had something which Palestine didn't have.
And pissing off Arabs and Persians, who you want to serve your interests, over Palestine, was never going to be a clever mood.
During this postwar period France took a slightly different attitude. Partly no doubt because a Jewish homeland after the Holocaust had huge left-wing support, there was clearly an emotional connection. No one really bothered to think of the consequences for the Palestinian people, it wasn't them who had been murdered on an industrial scale by hate-filled Europeans, so they didn't matter - the French Vichy government was implicit in the holocaust.
So at that time France was Israel closest friend, ally, and biggest arms supplier. The United States certainly wasn't.
In fact the United States could be quite hostile towards Israel as it was when it opposed Israel, France, and Britian, over their attack on Egypt over Suez, which was a blatant act of war and imperialism.
Everything changed following the 6 Day War. Oil prices quadrupled overnight. The United States which had plenty of oil fields of their own but found it easier to import much cheaper Middle Eastern oil suddenly started to see the region as vital to their interests.
France placed an arms embargo on Israel and the United States became Israel's main arms supplier. Soviet influence in the region grew. As Israel's treatment of Palestinians became apparent the Left started to abandon Israel and also to realise that Palestinians did matter after all.
Hostility towards the West started to increase, partly in response to the treatment of Palestinian but also because of neocolonialism. The West maintained a strong pro-Western dictatorship in oil rich Iraq but lost oil rich Libya and Iran. The situation became more and more critical during which time Israel's importance to Western neocolonialism constantly increased. Eventually the Left pretty much abandoned Israel and as it lurched evermore to the right and increased its brutal repression of the Palestinian people.
Today United States governments are prepared to pour $billions into Israel and give them 100% support whatever they do, despite (iirc) 41% of Americans having a negative view of Israel, quite simply because Israel serves their interests.
The United States and their Western allies want a stronger and more powerful Israel. Which is why they support armed colonial settlers, many of them Europeans and Americans, who are currently taking land from the indigenous people of Palestine. It is blatant and naked colonialism.
This thread provides a platform for (some of) STW's regular political posters to attempt to 'dominate the airwaves'.
None of their comments will make an iota of difference; the huge chunks of verbiage they post do not inform the debate.
It's a bit like the self-professed know it all kid in school - hand always up; please miss/sir, listen to me.
Israel and Gaza has been a festering political problem for decades which has never been anywhere close to a resolution.
Now the two sides are further apart than ever.
There will be a high number of civilian deaths on both sides and Israel are likely to conduct 'surgical' political assassinations.
Israel is a nuclear power with the ability to use small scale nuclear weapons - they could have against Egypt but didn't.
Which countries in the middle east stand to benefit?
Is there a hidden hand of Russia/China/North Korea? Probably.
Keyboard warriors on STW are just an irrelevance on such an important subject.
With that, I'm out so let the verbiage and pointless posting continue.
Its a thread where a block feature would be beneficial to avoid having to scroll past posts made by some posters, who you know what they are going to do and say, before theyve done it. There'd be no missing out on healthy discussion, only improving it, there's challenging views given far better by other contributors.
yes i think a block or timeout capability is needed....
a particular low point is arguing the toss with one of our members whose just been through some scary shit with rockets flying over head and is trying to get back home.....
as for the wider implications on this war, just take a look at our news. dominated by it. I've seen very little about ukraine. tbh even the Labour conference is a foot note on the beeb. I don't for a second think hamas just decided alone to do a full scale invasion and how was it possible for them to stockpile so many munitions and to do it under Israeli noses.
it is interesting to see how the other middle East countries respond I think most see Iran as a threat, and will likely have a better clue than any of us keyboard warriors of Iranian involvement. that leaves them in potentially a weird dilemma that in supporting hamas they end up strengthening Iran, which I doubt they will want to do.
Tell me you’ve spent an hour on Wikipedia without telling me you’ve spent an hour on Wikipedia.
Nah, more likely ChatGPT working overtime.
Stay safe.
a particular low point is arguing the toss with one of our members whose just been through some scary shit with rockets flying over head and is trying to get back home…..
That's the joy of holding luxury beliefs, you can wax lyrical about what others 'should' with ideal world solutions dreamed up in the safety of your own home without ever facing risk or actually having to put in any of the hard yards.
This thread is good for bringing out the sock puppets and cranks who've never had to face more than a little boo boo from falling off the swings.
If you think someone needs a timeout report the post and see if the mods agree with you.
I’d just like to thank @brownperson for their very balanced contribution to this thread.
100% this!
This thread provides a platform for (some of) STW’s regular political posters to attempt to ‘dominate the airwaves’.
None of their comments will make an iota of difference; the huge chunks of verbiage they post do not inform the debate.
It’s a bit like the self-professed know it all kid in school – hand always up; please miss/sir, listen to me.
Israel and Gaza has been a festering political problem for decades which has never been anywhere close to a resolution.
and this!
a particular low point is arguing the toss with one of our members whose just been through some scary shit with rockets flying over head and is trying to get back home…..
That’s the joy of holding luxury beliefs, you can wax lyrical about what others ‘should’ with ideal world solutions dreamed up in the safety of your own home without ever facing risk or actually having to put in any of the hard yards.
This thread is good for bringing out the sock puppets and cranks who’ve never had to face more than a little boo boo from falling off the swings.
Also signaling the important and insightful post that @brownperson has made here, thank you for the input and your contribution.
Interesting to hear William Hague this morning warning Israel from falling into the trap set by Hamas by undertaking a ground assault on Gaza as revenge.
Estimates on BBC2 Newsnight last night stated that a ground assault in Gaza would lead to upwards of 20,000 Gaza civilian deaths.
This thread provides a platform for (some of) STW’s regular political posters to attempt to ‘dominate the airwaves’.
None of their comments will make an iota of difference; the huge chunks of verbiage they post do not inform the debate.
Do you mean regular political posters like yourself?
This thread won't bring peace in Palestine but global opinions concerning Palestine are slowly changing massive:
"More than half of Americans (55%) have favorable views of Israel, while 41% say they have unfavorable views of the country."
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2022/07/11/american-views-of-israel/
41% of Americans having an unfavourable view of Israel is quite staggering, not least when you consider the intense pro-Israeli propaganda which they are exposed to by both the mass media and their governments, especially right-wing governments such as the Trump administration.
This has been a long process and there is little doubt that among other things social media which didn't exist 40 years ago now plays a part, as people learn truth about Palestine and the root causes.
The reference to the death of a "British" soldier, tragic as it undoubtedly is, all deaths are of course tragic, shines a light on much of what this conflict is really about. There are no British soldiers fighting in Palestine, only Israeli soldiers.
The need to emphasis that the soldier had British nationality was obviously to create a feeling that this conflict is "them" against "us". A colonial mindset where the people whose land is being taken are savages who are killing the civilised British who would never act in such a barbaric way.
This however is 2023 and this colonial mindset and the talk of the rights of "settlers" to live peacefully is losing traction. A guess silencing or dismissing the debate is one way to push back. In Labour Party Conference 2023 any meaningful debates concerning Palestine are banned, beyond expressing total support for Israel.
As is any reference to Israel being an apartheid state as recognised by Amnesty International, and even now the United Nations.
That’ll be very difficult for Israel to justify on the world stage as a proportionate response.
I disagree, it's not difficult to justify in the slightest; the challenge is will other nations take it seriously or with any validity?
And that all depends on the respective nations press, political leanings and relationships with influential nations.
it is interesting to see how the other middle East countries respond I think most see Iran as a threat, and will likely have a better clue than any of us keyboard warriors of Iranian involvement. that leaves them in potentially a weird dilemma that in supporting hamas they end up strengthening Iran, which I doubt they will want to do.
I don't think it will be much of a dilemma for many. Qatar/Iran/Syria/Hezbollah have their own arc, and that's more or less it. No state is really championing the cause of Palestinians. I wonder what ****stan is up to now? For them, obviously, Palestine is a parallel to Jammu and Kashmir.
From the United Nations:
https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1114702
"There is today in the Palestinian territory occupied by Israel since 1967 a deeply discriminatory dual legal and political system, that privileges the 700,000 Israeli Jewish settlers living in the 300 illegal Israeli settlements in East Jerusalem and the West Bank,” said Michael Lynk, the UN Special Rapporteur for the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967.
"Another two million Palestinians live in Gaza, described regularly as an ‘open-air prison’, without adequate access to power, water or health, with a collapsing economy and with no ability to freely travel to the rest of Palestine or the outside world”, he added.
He ran through the internationally-understood legal definition of apartheid – the system of institutionalized racial segregation practiced in South Africa prior to its dismantling in the early 1990s.
Israel, he said, conforms to the definition as a “political regime which so intentionally and clearly prioritizes fundamental political, legal and social rights to one group over another, within the same geographic unit on the basis of one’s racial-national-ethnic identity”.
And most important of all, it is a "war crime".
"Apartheid is not, sadly, a phenomenon confined to the history books on southern Africa,” Mr. Lynk said, in his report to the Human Rights Council.
“The 1998 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court came into law after the collapse of the old South Africa. It is a forward-looking legal instrument which prohibits apartheid as a crime against humanity today and into the future, wherever it may exist.”
As it exists today the entire Israeli government are war criminals, not to put too finer point on it.
Interesting to hear William Hague this morning warning Israel from falling into the trap set by Hamas by undertaking a ground assault on Gaza as revenge.
Estimates on BBC2 Newsnight last night stated that a ground assault in Gaza would lead to upwards of 20,000 Gaza civilian deaths.
What is very worrying is the language that all western governments are presently using. James Cleverley certainly wasn't putting any caveats on Israel's response on radio 4 just now, which I'm sure will be taken as a green light by Netanyahu as a free pass to do whatever, no matter how extreme.
They're already imposing 'collective punishment' on the Palestinian people, which is against international law, by stopping water, electricity, food and medical supplies. Would anyone put it past Netanyahu to mount a full scale ground assault into the Gaza Strip? Its certainly looking that way. They've 'called up' over 300,000 reservists on top of their already enormous military.
This is exactly what the nutters at the top of Hamas want and the civilian death toll if that happens just doesn't bear thinking about. Its a pretty depressing prospect. Just imagine being a normal person in the Gaza strip with nowhere to go and the prospect of a full scale war on the near horizon
As an aside I thought that the body count in Israel was interesting, 900 Israelis and 1500 Hamas militants, so not quite the massacre by the militants as has been portrayed (IMHO)......
I absolutely agree this is going in a really really bad direction
But is it right to just assume they are all 'nutters'? and as interesting and horrible as all the contextual history of the region is, I think there is more to it. Using past misdeeds to justify future ones isn't how we (humans) should live otherwise its never ending spiral of violence. The nutters aren't in charge, sane cold calculating people trying to gain power are in charge and using things like religion and transgression to create the nutters. The nutters are the pawns that are easily manipulated and made to do horrific stuff. Its actually much easier to come to terms with horrific actions when we think they are planned and perpetrated by nutters.
I agree with the un report quoted above. But there is more chance of me winning the lottery twice than the security council actually doing anything to bring Israel into line with its international legal obligations.
We're not immune to this here. When I was 18 (late 80s) i used to work in a pub in Manchester with a Protestant bloke from Belfast.
When he found out my Dad was from Leinster he wouldn't talk to me. Apparently he hated everyone in the Republic of Ireland because they left the lights on in WW2 and the Germans used them as navigation to bomb Belfast. He was the same age as me, i.e. born in 1971. Such ingrained bullshit is not uncommon
From the United Nations:
As if anything the UN says has any impact on any state or quasi-state actor? I mean; China is a signatory of the UN Human Rights charter, as is Iran, being a signatory of the Geneva Conventions didn't stop US service men and women from torturing prisoners in Abu Ghraib, the UN Genocide Convention didn't stop the genocide in Rwanda. Hamas backed by Iran and Qatar will, like Israel, doubtless ignore any sort of rules when it comes to this round of warfare, indeed the raping of women and shooting of civilians has already started (continued). I'm happy to blame Netanyahu when it comes to his part in the increasingly depressing breakdown of rules based order, and terrorists like Haniyeh 'exiled' in comfort in Qatar have never paid attention to them unless they play a part in lip service to his cause.
A pox on all their houses.
No winners in war, just more hate. Our focus these days should be on all saving the world, and not killing each other.
JeZ
Hopefully future generations on both sides will realise their made up deity didn't promise them rights to any land and that we're all the same, trying to live this one life as best we can and it's better to get on together than have these made up divisions of beliefs and land between us.
As an aside I thought that the body count in Israel was interesting, 900 Israelis and 1500 Hamas militants, so not quite the massacre by the militants as has been portrayed (IMHO)……
Jesus christ - 900 people not a massacre enough for you?!
Jesus christ – 900 people not a massacre enough for you?!
Maybe I didn't phrase that very well, 900 dead is apalling, but I was surprised that 1500 Hamas miltants died doing it. The Israeli defence forces would appear to have put up more resistance than it first appeared.
but I was surprised that 1500 Hamas miltants died doing it.
I expect many were either encircled by Israeli forces or just decided to stay and fight to the death, given the alternative of retreating to Gaza and waiting to be bombed
As an aside, it's slightly worrying to see the increased police presence on the streets here in a Jewish area of Manchester.
Last time there was a ground war in Gaza there was a sharp uptick in anti-semitism in the UK. I was walking along at one point when a convoy of cars bearing large Palestine flags came racing down the road at high speed... this instance was just a statement but could easily have been an actual attack.
Not nice to think I am likely to be abused or attacked simply because I share a religion with the Israeli leadership (who are not religious 🙄)
As an aside, it’s slightly worrying to see the increased police presence on the streets here in a Jewish area of Manchester.
my mate's kids go to a Jewish primary school in a fairly jewish area of north london. There is always security guards on the gates, whenever any kids are in the school - a significant difference to any other schools I'm aware of in the country. There's an extra level of concern from the community and so it doesn't surprise me that it extends to more coppers around too
Hamas terrorist shared sick photos of Israeli grandma’s body on her Facebook after butchering her…
militants or terrorists?
and yet BBC refuses to call them terrorists or even report on this story !
Woman at pro-Palestine rally in Brighton calls Hamas attacks on Israel 'beautiful and inspiring' - she should be arrested !
keep your left wing ideology’s coming - keyboard warriors !
BBC refuses to call them terrorists
I don't think the bbc label anyone terrorists - see
There's so many smaller stories to report on, but there are atrocities on both sides, Israel's blockade of medicine and water to Gaza for example could be considered a war crime (UN have said that it's illegal).
Interesting, balanced discussion on BBC from Sebastian Usher this morning, at one point comparing Russia's encroachment on Ukrainian territory with Israel's encroachment on Palestinian territory and how the west have responded to each.
This is an excellent article in the Guardian imo:
I thought this was particularly interesting - the suggestion that the attack was an attempt by Hamas to seize the initiative in a situation which was already developing and which was resulting in mounting Palestinian casualties, they could see another intifada coming
"But a major escalation in Palestine/Israel was already under way, with a dramatic rise in Palestinian casualties in the West Bank, the ethnic cleansing of several small communities, intensified settlers’ attacks, and blatant changes to the status quo at the al-Aqsa mosque/Temple Mount in Jerusalem. Many, therefore, believed a popular uprising – another intifada – was only a matter of time.
It may have been that Hamas decided that an escalation was coming and it wanted to keep the initiative in its own hands, rather than respond to a popular uprising."
Also interesting in the Guardian article is this:
"It seems that Hamas, also, is trying to force Israel into negotiations. In 2018, Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar sent a note in Hebrew to Israel’s prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, suggesting he take a “calculated risk” by agreeing a long-term truce. While Netanyahu agreed to some easing of pressure on Gaza, he was unwilling to accept Hamas’s long-term demands, including a large-scale prisoner swap, lifting the siege by opening the international border crossing, and establishing a port and airport in Gaza. After 16 years of siege and several catastrophic rounds of war, in which thousands of Gaza residents have been killed, Hamas may be hoping to break the deadlock."
Who knew that for years Hamas has been actively trying to force the most right-wing and hostile Israeli government in history to the negotiation table?
Bearing in mind that Israeli Military Order 101 makes peaceful protests by the Palestinians illegal, and subjects them to a court martial, what choices do the Palestinian people have?
No peaceful protests, no armed resistance, and no negotiations. Despite all three being perfectly legal under international law.
Edit: If another intifada had indeed occurred, even with without Hamas's attack, the Palestinian people would have been slaughtered They always are in every intifada.
First and foremost, those attacks were horrendous and absolutely beyond the pale. But those who are painting this as innocent Israelis against ‘human animals’, please consider:
"People drink, snack and pose for selfies against a background of explosions as Palestinian death toll mounts in ongoing offensive"
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing
Israel gets a free pass by the West and virtually any atrocity or violation of international law is tolerated, much like with the Saudis, a state which stones to death gay men or condemns its subjects to life imprisonment for voicing the mildest complaints, merely because it suits Western interests to overlook such things.
A key measure of how the optics change to suit the narrative can be viewed through the Ukraine war, a state which is being fully supported and bankrolled to defend itself against a much larger, well-resourced aggressor. If you support the Ukraine’s unequivocal right, including launching drone attacks into Russian territory, why would you not support Gaza’s right to defend itself? In a war of survival and attrition, would you justify war crimes if they achieved the aim of expelling Russia?
Likewise, if Russia annexed a Ukrainian city tomorrow, bombed it indiscriminately, and cut off water, food, and fuel supplies to over 2.4 million people, with her ministry of defence calling Ukrainian civilians "human animals", people would be outraged. The attacks on civilians are absolutely horrendous, but how can they be resolved by doing the exact same thing, albeit with battleships, artillery and fighter jets?
Hamas terrorist shared sick photos of Israeli grandma’s body on her Facebook after butchering her…
militants or terrorists?
and yet BBC refuses to call them terrorists or even report on this story !
Woman at pro-Palestine rally in Brighton calls Hamas attacks on Israel ‘beautiful and inspiring’ – she should be arrested !
keep your left wing ideology’s coming – keyboard warriors !
It's got nothing to do with anyone being a keyboard warrior - why should that woman be arrested? For expressing an opinion?
Why do Hamas exist? Because ultimately someone elses actions have bought them into being. What they have done is utterly abhorrent & is impossible to defend.
But Isreal aren't any angelic force for good either. The whole situation is a utter bit of a mess & my heart goes out to anyone caught up in it.
Ernie, your arguments have gone from the nonsensical to the deranged now.
Military Order 101 is a travesty, but it applies in the West Bank not Gaza because Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. In Gaza, it's Hamas that suppresses peaceful protests.
If Hamas believes the best way to bring Israel back to the negitiating table is the mass rape and muder of civilians, then Gazan's best hope for a peaceful solution is that international pressure causes Hamas to step down.
If you support the Ukraine’s unequivocal right, including launching drone attacks into Russian territory, why would you not support Gaza’s right to defend itself?
I think most people would agree there's a significant difference between the tactics uses by Ukraine, which appear to be small, targetted at millitary installations (with very few civilian casualties) and controlled, with the approach used last weekend, which was for the large part a deliberate attack against unarmed civilians with no link to military targets. I'd not have a problem with Hamas trying to blow up a site used to launch rockets at them, but running round killing people at a festival is a long way from that.
I think the take away from this disastrous situation is that two wrongs (war crimes committed by both sides) do not make a right (justify such action by either side)
Full disclosure - MrsMC has an aunt who moved to Israel in the 1950s and married an Israeli, we are trying to get in touch to see if aunt and cousins are safe and well.
why should that woman be arrested? For expressing an opinion?
IANAL so don't know if it crosses the line but hate speech is very much an arrestable offence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_the_United_Kingdom
Ernie, your arguments have gone from the nonsensical to the deranged now.
Military Order 101 is a travesty, but it applies in the West Bank not Gaza because Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. In Gaza, it’s Hamas that suppresses peaceful protests.
Next you will be claiming that Gaza isn't "occupied", which is what the Israeli government claims.
The United Nations considers Gaza to be under occupation because Israel controls everything that goes in and out.
The fact that the IDF can't make day to day arrests in Gaza because they don't have permanent troops on the ground is utterly irrelevant, Military Order 101 applies to the whole of Occupied Palestine.
It specifically bans Palestinians from engaging in peaceful protests.
And btw you can sling as many personal insults as you fancy, it won't make one iota of difference, I will continue to express support the Palestinian people. In fact I find it quite reassuring that you feel the need to resort to insults.
You could have made exactly the same point without resorting to insults - just pointed out that the IDF can't make arrests in Gaza so no military orders can be implemented, but presumably you felt the insults would somehow silence me. It won't.
Never mind the arguing on here over pithy little verbal spats. There's a horrendous humanitarian crisis going on in Gaza right now. No power, gas, water, safe shelter, no aid, very little medical help with shocking battlefield injuries suffered by civilians under the constant threat of extreme military prejudice. Watched by the world's media, with the support of Western governments. How have we come to this, again. Not a question, a condemnation. I have no skin in the game personally, but I'm so angry and ashamed.
It's not surprising the world breeds extremists seeking revenge.
It’s not surprising the world breeds extremists seeking revenge
I fear that after this has ended, with Israel declaring it's 'victory' extremist revenge will go on for years after in the form of suicide attacks.
Injured on the Palestinian side currently around 4000+ . So from that we can infer that the vast majority of those are Palestinian families, brought about by Israel's indiscriminate bombing campaign, with a high degree of women and children.
Israel will class all of those as terrorists, or well tough luck or 'human shields' even though that phrase is meaningless.
Its up to the world now to force sanctions on Israel and maybe put an end to this deliberate targeting of Palestinian families as an act of revenge. For that to happen the people must force their leaders to take a stand and condemn Israel publicly.
It’s not surprising the world breeds extremists seeking revenge.
You are completely misunderstanding Hamas. They are Islamists first and foremost who believe God will take almighty vengeance on the Jews when the apocalypse comes. It's not about revenge it's about bringing about the end of days. If this starts a regional conflagration that's job done for them regardless of how many die.
I think it's almost impossible for secular people to understand how religious extremists think. When they talk about all the righteous end of days stuff and martyrdom they really, really mean it.
Its up to the world now to force sanctions on Israel and maybe put an end to this deliberate targeting of Palestinian families as an act of revenge. For that to happen the people must force their leaders to take a stand and condemn Israel publicly.
Certainly in the UK it is actually going the other way. The Labour Party, which in all likelihood will form the next UK government, has never in its entire history been more intolerant for criticism of Israel.
Despite Israel being the most right-wing that it has ever been.
Talk of sanctions on Israel on social media, as you just have, would very likely result in you being accused of anti-semitism and expelled from the Labour Party if you were a member.
The Labour Party has specifically banned any accusation of Israel being an apartheid state at its current party conference. Despite the fact that that is exactly what the United Nations considers Israel to be.
Never has that level of intolerance ever existed before. I find it both deeply depressing and frankly quite scary.
Although on the plus side it shows just how desperate things have become for the pro-Israel lobby that they want/need to completely silence any meaningful debate concerning Palestine.
The tide is turning.