[Closed] Another war in Palestine

A half naked young woman dragged through the streets strapped to the back of a pick up, raped, then murdered.  Young girls, maybe 9 or 10 years old having the shit kicked out of them by grown men all caught on video to be celebrated….  But yeah crack on 2 sides to every story, let’s have a reasonable debate.  Meanwhile where are the leaders of Hamas whilst all this happens - oh yeah that’s right they’re living in luxury in Tehran or Damascus…

Morally bankrupt indeed 

Over the years there have been hundreds of direct attacks on Israeli civilians by Palestinians. Suicide bombings on buses, schools, restaurants, mass shootings, car bombings and stabbings on randomly selected civilians.

Yes there have been, but is it not naive to simply dismiss those attacks without knowing what lies behind them.

It should be noted that in many of these cases it has been an individual action, against what they see as an oppressor, carried out by everyday people who have lost everything. People whose homes have been bulldozed, family members gunned down. So possibly a case of a last desperate act of retribution rather than some planned attack on behalf of a militant organization.

Do we not find it odd that is some cases its been a 60 year old suddenly attacking a group of policemen or army, knowing they aren't going to survive.

These instances are not looked into, the perpetrator is simply classed and reported as being a terrorist. Labels work best when no further investigations take place.

.

Im not going to say this is synonymous of every attack, but the truth and evidence does show that these type of attacks have and do take place and those are the reasons for them.

.

eg. Israeli settlers attack a Palestinian home setting fire to it and burning to death a baby and its parents. What would the relatives do in such a case when overcome with the horror of that situation. Can we condemn them for wanting to inflict retribution. Have we any right to ?.

Any atrocities committed by the Palestinians should be categorically condemned, no one is going to dispute that.

How is that relevant?

Israelis are somehow allowed to commit war crimes and ignore international law?

Edit: Israeli war crimes are regularly documented by humanitarian/human rights agencies and the United Nations. Any war crimes currently being committed by the Palestinians will no doubt also be documented.

Or is there anyone who believes that the United Nations and other agencies simply ignore war crimes committed the Palestinians?

Would it be fair to call you a ghoulish, morally-bankrupt terrorism apologist?

Which one of us is making excuses for murder?
I’ll leave you to it.

Which one of us is making excuses for murder?

I thought you were. I have repeatedly provided evidence of Israeli forces committing cold-blooded murder and you haven't condemned it.

That's how it works isn't it.....if you don't condemn it you are a ghoulish, morally-bankrupt terrorism apologist, no?

I won't hesitate to condemn any atrocities committed by the Palestinians. Give me specific examples and I will condemn them.

I have repeatedly provided evidence of Israeli forces committing cold-blooded murder

Precisely. This what you have chosen to do today, in response to atrocities committed against Israeli civilians and families.

I remain quite confident that passions inflamed by this debate will be resolved, and that lessons learned from this very thread will lead to peace across the whole of Arabia.

Why isn't there more snooker on television?

I appreciate that ^^ comment is designed to be sarcastic. However global attitudes are dramatically changing and it isn't necessarily down to the MSM.

Ironically Israel's most fervent supporters in the United States are the Christian MAGA far-right, the majority of American Jews no longer back unconditional support for Israel:

I hear it from them. They see social media, they’re checking out information coming from the Middle East. They don’t have to rely on the mass media here any more. They’re more sceptical about what they hear from the politicians and mainstream Jewish groups,” he said.

Part of the shift has been driven by social media and the wide circulation of videos such as Israeli assaults on Gaza and the West Bank, the large-scale forced removal of Palestinians from the South Hebron hills, and armed Jewish settlers rampaging through Palestinian towns.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jul/24/american-jews-critical-israeli-settlements-west-bank

Btw the 25% of American Jews who said that “Israel is an apartheid state" wouldn't be welcomed in the Labour Party as they would probably be classed as antisemitic.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/02/18/labour-candidate-called-israel-apartheid-state/

Any atrocities committed by the Palestinians should be categorically condemned, no one is going to dispute that.

You should probably have a word with somafunk.

somafunk
Full Member
I imagine those areas of Israeli civilian population were previously Palestinian owned, similar to how Russia occupied Crimea and deserve everything thrown at them from Ukraine, no sympathy for Israeli settlers from me.

The idea that the Palestinian resistance deliberately targets their extremely limited resources at civilians, rather than useful military assets, is daft in my opinion.

It’s not “an idea”, it is what’s happening, right now. A fact on the ground, not an opinion. And should be condemned outright. Yes, the fight to regain stolen ground will mean death and destruction along the way. But if Ukraine were using the same tactics against Russian occupied regions… rape as a weapon of war, execution of civilian hostages, close quarters machine gunning of infants… the world would rightly be up in arms.

Israel should be back behind the green line, and the UN and its members should have insisted on that decades ago (USA are not the only culprits here, but are the most important). Without the international community being stronger with Israel about its continuing expansion, fighting is unavoidable. The tactics being seen right now should be condemned by all though. You can be on the side of those struggling for their freedom and their land against an occupying oppressor and still say what much of has recently happened is wrong, must stop, is counterproductive, and some of it is quite frankly down right evil.

The idea that the Palestinian resistance deliberately targets their extremely limited resources at civilians, rather than useful military assets, is daft in my opinion.

There is absolutely no way that someone with so much to say on this topic can genuinely hold this opinion, given the terabytes of video and photo evidence to the contrary that's become available in the last 26 hours. Ernie, I'll be kind and consider you're playing Devil's Advocate.

The idea that the Palestinian resistance deliberately targets their extremely limited resources at civilians, rather than useful military assets, is daft in my opinion.

It's called "terrorism". The aim isn't to win militarily, it's to provoke terror among the civilian population.

Israel should be back behind the green line, and the UN and its members should have insisted on that decades ago (USA are not the only culprits here, but are the most important). Without the international community being stronger with Israel about its continuing expansion, fighting is unavoidable. The tactics being seen right now should be condemned by all though.

It's far more complex than that. One major issue is that the U.S. agreed in the 1970s to provide military aid to Egypt as part of the peace deal between Israel and Egypt. Military aid to Israel is also related to that. Another war between Egypt and Israel would be catastrophic, so the U.S. is stuck providing military aid to two countries with very problematic histories. Cutting off the support would be worse though, so the idea that the U.S. should cut off support for Israel is a non-starter. That would destabilize the region and probably lead to Israel launching preemptive strikes against Iran to prevent Iran building nuclear weapons.

An important part of signing a peace treaty with Israel is recognition of Israel. Hamas refuse to do that, their stated aim is the destruction of Israel. Israel interprets that as a call for a second holocaust and the events of this week will make them double down on that belief. Unless the international community is willing to crack down on Hamas and put its leaders on trial for their crimes, Israel will never accept any deal brokered by outside countries. Having lefties in Western countries dismissing the killing of Israeli citizens just hardens Israeli's view that the world does not care about the killing of Jews.

Back in the 1990s, it looked like there was a serious chance of a peace deal, where Israel would return occupied lands and Palestinians would recognize Israel. Hard liners on both sides kept provoking violence in order to sabotage that - they aren't interested in peace, they benefit from continuing conflict. For any peace deal to work, as well as Israel withdrawing from occupied territories, Palestinian leaders would need to guarantee that violence against Israel stopped. No Palestinian leader could enforce any deal like that, so no Israeli leader could sell that to the Israeli public. This war is going to go very badly for Palestinians, anyone cheering it on in the belief that it might somehow teach Israelis a lesson is quite deluded. The lesson that Israelis will take from it is that Palestinians can never be trusted and it is pointless to try negotiating with them. So, there's no point in calling on Israel to do anything unless the international community is willing to hold Hamas leaders to the standards that Israel is called to uphold.

I can’t see that you have condemned that. Would it be fair to call you a ghoulish, morally-bankrupt terrorism apologist?

There's a difference between not addressing and condemning specific atrocities individually, and blanket statements claiming Palestine* don't attack civilians, despite historical evidence as well as the terabytes evidence that have become available in the past day.
Nobody here is cheering on the murder of Palestinean journalists or the mass bulldozing of Palestinean settlements. But some are playing the  whataboutery card, balancing the forced displacement of people against the brutal murder of families hiding in bomb shelters and deciding that justice has been served.
I challenge you to go look on telegram or even Twitter and look at the piles of bodies in Sderot and the surrounding areas, watch the videos of women and children being kidnapped, the German festival goer's broken and naked body being kicked and spit on as it is paraded around the streets of Gaza, and then come back here and tell us your opinion still holds water.
*and really you should be using Hamas here, but to do that would differentiate between the people and the terrorist organisation which lessens the impact of your outrage when the IDF retaliates

But if Ukraine were using the same tactics against Russian occupied regions…<br /><br />

The solution is obviously to supply the Palestinians with HIMARS and Leopard tanks. Then they wouldn’t have to attack soft targets. 

oh, while we’re on the subject, any thoughts about Ikrainian drones hitting apartment buildings?

It’s called “terrorism”. The aim isn’t to win militarily, it’s to provoke terror among the civilian population.<br /><br />

“shock and awe” you mean?  Really, “terrorism” as a label serves no useful purpose except to tell us clearly what your prejudices are. 

Nice to see some classy bickering

I haven't seen any tin foil theories about why hamas have decided to do a massive surprise escalation now.  seemed very out of the blue.

given who their allies are, maybe there is some bigger play here.  unless hamas are just basically insane and there isnt a bigger plan and its just about killing jews.  what they have just done is going to make the life of their people much worse 

No conspiracy needed. It's to ruin the Israel-Saudi "normalisation" talks, and it looks like it worked.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/significance-hamas-chose-attack-israel-now-rcna119351

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/israel-hamas-gaza-rockets-attack-palestinians/card/hezbollah-praises-hamas-attack-warns-against-normalising-ties-with-israel

what they have just done is going to make the life of their people much worse <br /><br />

because their lives were so comfortable before, right?

Another crucial thing that lefties constantly seem to miss is that other people have agency. The fantasy that the U.S. can somehow force Israel, Ukraine, Saudi Arabia, etc. to accept treaties that they aren't interested in accepting ignores that other countries make their decisions based on their own assessments of their national interests. The same goes for Hamas - the idea that they will just lay down their weapons if Israel returns occupied territories ignores that they have their own agenda and agency, an agenda which is very different from comfortable middle-class people living in rich Western countries. Hamas are not interested in a peace treaty with Israel, their goal is to destroy Israel. Israel knows this and they will not be coerced into signing any agreement, especially after the events of this week.

The idea that the Palestinian resistance deliberately targets their extremely limited resources at civilians, rather than useful military assets, is daft in my opinion.

It’s called “terrorism”. The aim isn’t to win militarily, it’s to provoke terror among the civilian population.

I don't know if this is deliberate or whether there is a genuine 'misunderstanding' of what I was saying.

I was of course refering to Palestinian rocket attacks. Rockets are a principal weapon used by the Palestinian resistance, there is no doubt that they are inaccurate, they are afterall made covertly using smuggled materials.

Their use is widespread and undisputed. But the idea that Palestinians would deliberately use these extremely valuable and limited resources against civilian targets rather than military targets is just simply daft. Of course they would rather that they hit a military target, if for no other reason than it would make them more useful and effective.

And as for the definition of 'terrorism', the turkey shoots which the IDF regularly carries out against the unarmed people of Gaza is precisely to instill terror. Israeli governments are renowned for their collective punishment of the Palestinian people.

Collective punishment is banned under Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, why do think that might be? Yup, because it is terrorism.

Netanyahu said yesterday "I'm telling the people of Gaza: get out of there now, because we're about to act everywhere with all our force," I don't know if he said that with a straight face, knowing as he does that Gaza is basically a huge concentration camp.

So now it will of course be the fault of all the men, women, and children, who die, not his, he will claim.

lefties

Yawn.

jeez.  unnecessary really

I never said anyone had a comfortable live.  I said it's been made worse by these horrific actions.  for people on both sides

resources could be spent on humanitarian activity or instead you can spend it on loads of missiles and kill innocent people and just make a shit situation a massive amount shitter

I didn't know about the Saudi thing, thanks for that, off to read...

Of course they would rather that they hit a military target, if for no other reason than it would make them more useful and effective.

I'll ask again. Go watch the videos of civilians being machine gunned in bomb shelters, go watch the Philippino farm workers herded into a room and shot, and then come back and tell us that Hamas prefer military targets.

resources could be spent on humanitarian activity or instead you can spend it on loads of missiles and kill innocent people and just make a shit situation a massive amount shitter

Like schools and hospitals you mean? Like the ones routinely destroyed by the Israelis? If there was a path to peace and prosperity do you suppose that Hamas would be able to get volunteers to stuff envelopes, never mind to strap on suicide vests?

But the idea that Palestinians would deliberately use these extremely valuable and limited resources against civilian targets rather than military targets is just simply daft.

Have you never read a single newspaper in the last 30 years? How much evidence do you need before you accept that Hamas targets Israeli civilians as a matter of policy? I think everyone on here would love to see Israel and Palestinians live together in peace, but that won't come about by denying the reality that Hamas have no interest in a peace treaty and have a policy of indiscriminately killing Israeli civilians in order to make any peace deal impossible.

And have any of you so concerned about the plight of poor old Hamas considered what has happened when they were allowed into other countries? There's a reason Egypt has shut their border with Gaza. Maybe look at the events around Black September and who was involved, or consider why Lebanon is now a hell hole in the firm grasp of Hezbollah rather than the international trade hub it was on the verge of becoming.

resources could be spent on humanitarian activity or instead you can spend it on loads of missiles and kill innocent people and just make a shit situation a massive amount shitter

So you are denying the right of people living under occupation to fight, a right which is enshrined under international law, why? Because they are Palestinians?

Israel is the last remaining colony held by Western powers, they even talk of "settlers" ffs.

I can’t comment on whether it is sexual but you seem to have a total and callous disregard for the murder of innocent Palestinian civilians.

Actually I condemn the murder of anyone. You on the other hand not so much and still preach that what’s happened in the last 24 hours is justifiable in some way and swerve answering direct questions. So we are clear women have been raped, murdered, bodies defiled and paraded on the back of picks for people to spit and cheer over.

A very simple and binary question. Do you condemn that y/n?

And as for the definition of ‘terrorism’, the turkey shoots which the IDF regularly carries out against the unarmed people of Gaza

Amateur stuff. Dresden and Hiroshima FTW

And have any of you so concerned about the plight of poor old Hamas considered what has happened when they were allowed into other countries?

And, while you're at it, read up on the history of the PLO and why Jordan booted them out decades ago. Nobody wants armed militants in their country, including Islamic countries.

Anyway I have got to meet my Iranian friend for a bike ride at 9am, so I will leave it for now.

I think everyone on here would love to see Israel and Palestinians live together in peace, but that won’t come about by denying the reality that Hamas have no interest in a peace treaty and have a policy of indiscriminately killing Israeli civilians in order to make any peace deal impossible.

Remind us of the peace initiatives undertaken by the current Israeli government; I seem to have missed them.

Anyway I have got to meet my Iranian friend for a bike ride at 9am, so I will leave it for now.

Off to get a fresh set of talking points?

Remind us of the peace initiatives undertaken by the current Israeli government; I seem to have missed them.

The Israeli government gave up on peace initiatives long ago. Right-wing Israelis' view is that Palestinians cannot be trusted and they will not negotiate with groups like Hamas whose goal is the destruction of Israel. This week's events will have cemented those views in the minds of every Israeli so no peace initiatives will be possible for decades to come. That's why celebrating the killing of Israeli civilians is so stupid - it just convinces Israelis that the world doesn't care about the killing of Jews and that makes things even worse for Palestinians.

Always interesting to see how in discussions like this can descend with the ad homs, pejorative terms, from the anecdote to the generalization, the liberal use of contested terms. Any country based on apartheid and even more so one that 'settles' on others' land is creating an ever expanding powder keg for itself. It's no surprise when every now and then it goes off.

Its like the Labour party conference in here, isn't it.

An ad hom is when you attack the person to avoid engaging with their position.

ernielynch's position:

The idea that the Palestinian resistance deliberately targets their extremely limited resources at civilians, rather than useful military assets, is daft in my opinion.

has not been ignored

All these attacks are inside 1967 borders - these civilians are not settlers.
Civilians were deliverabely targeted, not 'collateral damage', there's an abundance of grim evidence that unfolded in real time.

Whatever your opinions on the complexities of the wider Israel / Palestine conflict, yesterdays events were a barbaric outrage.

Hamas and the Israeli government as as bad as each other.  They have both committed atrocities in the last god knows how many years.  The fact our government supports what Israel is doing is the shocking thing.   No one seems to want to criticise what Israel is currently doing with Palestine in general or the fact they are bombing civilians in Gaza.

has not been ignored

The context has been, totally. I wasn't sure if it was deliberate or a misunderstanding, it's now obvious that it was deliberate.

I fully support the right of the Palestinians to engage in armed resistance against an occupation force, as is allowed under international law, I can't understand why anyone wouldn't.

I do not support anyone, and any side, committing atrocities, as is prohibited under international law. HTH

I fully support the right of the Palestinians to engage in an armed resistance against an occupation force, as is allowed under international law, I can’t understand why anyone wouldn’t.

I do not support anyone, and any side, committing atrocities, as is prohibited under international law. HTH

I agree.

However, the problem is that it seems that Hamas main focus is to terrorise civilians, including kidnap, murdering children and rape.

The Israeli government gave up on peace initiatives long ago. <br /><br />

there you go. Progress. 

Hpercer, the problem is that it seems that Hamas main focus is to terrorise civilians, including kidnap, murdering children and rape.

Thats A problem for sure. The bigger problem is the situation that leads them to do that. Any thoughts on  how to address that?

Hamas and the Israeli government as as bad as each other.

No. Hamas are much worse. Israel is a democracy and it's possible to replace governments and change policies. The current right-wing Israeli government has been drifting further and further into authoritarianism, but they are still nowhere near as bad as Hamas. Hopefully, this attack will cause the current Israeli government to fall and it will be replaced by a more moderate one that is willing to make a serious effort at resolving the problems that the region faces. Whether that happens or not, we don't know, but it's quite a plausible scenario because Israel is a democracy. The idea that Hamas leaders will be ousted and replaced by more moderate leaders is utter fantasy - Hamas is not an organization that aims to govern, it's a violent revolutionary group that has the sole aim of destroying Israel.

However, the problem is that it seems that Hamas main focus is to terrorise civilians, including kidnap, murdering children and rape.<br /><br />

That doesn’t really seem any different to the approach taken by the Israeli government in reality. 

Agreed, @thols2. And even looked at in isolation, domestically, Hamas is a dictatorship with a dismal record of torturing and murdering political opponents, on human rights, women’s rights, gay rights etc.

No. Hamas are much worse. Israel is a democracy and it’s possible to replace governments and change policies.

I'm happy to be corrected but wasn't Hamas elected in Gaza? I seem to recall some controversy over it at the time, hence Gaza and the West Bank have different governing parties.

It's a shit show for sure, there are too many religious extremists on both sides, when you look closely enough the difference between atrocities committed by the settlers and Hamas is slight, both sides in this sad conflict have their share of bigoted arseholes that refuse to accept the right of the other to exist and it saddens me tremendously to say that I don't see a long term solution for a couple of generations yet.

Israel is a democracy and it’s possible to replace governments and change policies.

So you're saying it is the expressed will of the Israeli people to kill children, bomb schools etc etc etc ad nauseam. I'm not seeing how that is a good thing ?

I’m happy to be corrected but wasn’t Hamas elected in Gaza?

Yes they were.
For a 4 year term back in 2006.
There have been no elections since then.

The problem with the likes of Hamas, is that they simply won't negotiate.

It does not want a 2 state solution.

It states that it wants to destroy Israel and is considered to be genocidal by many, by wanting to destroy all Jews.

When it states that it wants to liberate Palestine, it means all of Israel.

I don't agree with Israel behaviour at times but what to do you do about something that exists only to absolutely destroy you?

Yes they were.
For a 4 year term back in 2006.
There have been no elections since then

Thanks for bringing me up to date, I can't believe it's been that long, my youngest was born in 2006 and for some reason that seems much closer in time, more like 2016!

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Feuobserver.com%2Fworld%2F151594

Together, they will be sending a letter to Israel's ambassador to the EU, Aharon Leshno-Yaar.

"Preventing the EU from supporting democracy is unacceptable, no matter where it happens," it says, in a copy seen by EUobserver.

I doubt that anybody really understands the full complexity of Palestinian politics. As I understand it, there are multiple competing groups and constantly shifting alliances. Western countries provide funding to the less violent groups, but situations like this generally favor extremists over moderates. So you end up with the, "He's an asshole, but he's our asshole" theory. That nearly always backfires because people just tell you want you want to hear, take your money, then ignore you. That leaves the West in the position of having to prop up leaders who don't deliver on the promises they made just because the alternatives are probably even worse.

Hamas derive their credibility from being willing to fight Israel so they have zero motivation to sign any peace treaty that Israel would accept. The same goes for Israeli right-wingers - their credibility comes from pushing for tough measures against Hamas and other Palestinian militant groups. That dynamic just ratchets up the violence and discredits any moderate voices that want to negotiate a peace deal. This is why Western tankies cheering on the killing of Israeli civilians is so harmful - it just rewards the hard-line Israeli right-wingers.

Israel is a democracy...Hopefully, this attack will cause the current Israeli government to fall and it will be replaced by a more moderate on

Israel is a democracy...for Jewish Israelis. For Palestinians with an Israeli passport, it's a story of segregation, poorer public services, and a legal status as a people whose language and ethnicity are secondary to Hebrew and Jewishness. And for the Palestinians under occupation - can a state that occupies the land of others really be a democracy?
https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-know-about-arab-citizens-israel

There are no circumstances in which attacking Israel and Israelis results in more moderation on their part!

No-one in Israel gives a shit what terminally online Europeans think. They're smart enough to realise that those whose grandparents fuelled or ignored their genocide aren't ever going to have their best interests in mind. The lesson of Jewish and Israeli history is that the only people who can protect you is your people. You'd be nuts to rely on the goodwill of others or care about their opinion.

why Western tankies cheering on the killing of Israeli civilians

These "Western tankies" - are they in the room with you now ?

There's a lot of angry rhetoric on here, and not a lot of genuine understanding, compassion and empathy.  And very little nuance.

For context; my wife and I said goodbye this morning to her nephew and his girlfriend; they've been over visiting, and were hoping to go to watch Arsenal play Man City this afternoon. When news broke yesterday morning, all they could do was sit glued to their phones, waiting for any information from friends and family in Israel. They then went out to meet up with friends, again to sit glued to their 'phones. My wife's nephew is a reservist, and has been recalled to serve. They were meant to be going home on Monday; that flight has been canceled and they are now sitting in Heathrow airport along with hundreds of other Israelis desperately trying to get home. My wife is wondering if this is the last time she'll ever see him. His mum is today attending the funeral of one of his sister's friends; murdered at a party by Hamas militants. This is likely not the last funeral this family will attend, over the coming days, weeks and months. Everyone knows someone who has been affected by this tragedy.

Until now, most young Israelis see very little of actual combat; the war is distant and removed from their lives. Suddenly, war has been visited upon the more affluent secular middle classes in the big cities. Now, it is real, and incredibly close.

Israel is not one nation together; it is becoming increasingly divided and fractured. There is growing resentment from secular Israelis, towards the religious right, who manage to skip the otherwise mandatory conscription, to pursue 'religious studies'. The last year has been marked by massive weekly demonstrations against the now very far-right government, who  want to overhaul the judiciary to make the passage of power easier to those on the far-right. Many in Israel are likening this to fascism.

These attacks have come at a time when Israel is at its weakest possibly at any time in its history. There is no surprise the attacks have taken place; if you beat and abuse a dog long enough, don't be surprised when it comes back and bites you. The only surprise is just how unprepared the Israeli authorities were; such an attack is unprecedented. The swiftness, scale and brutality of the attacks is also unprecedented; Hamas militants rarely venture far into Israeli territory, and seldom with such vigour and speed. But these attacks only mirror what Palestinians have been enduring for decades; midnight raids, beatings, torture etc. To those only speaking of Hamas' atrocities, I'd ask why your silence on those committed by the IDF? This is one of the most one-sided conflicts in history, and the tactics being used by Hamas have been learned undoubtedly from their Israeli oppressors. The rape of women, the murder of children; Israeli forces know all about that. That's being going on for as long as this conflict has. If you condemn the actions of Hamas, then you must also condemn those of the Israeli forces. Why aren't you? The response from Western governments has been unsurprising; the same cowardly platitudes about Israel 'defending itself, yet silence over the same rights of Palestinians. Hamas exists because of the brutality meted out by Israel. There is no space for liberalism in war. We don't have to condone their actions by understanding them.

As we sit behind our keyboards, venting our own frustrations, insecurities and inadequacies, innocent people are dying. It doesn't matter which side; nobody has the moral high ground here. But one side has far greater numbers, and a far, far more deadly arsenal. And one side has the constant backing of the West. And what are we in the West doing about it? Whilst the money flows, whilst we continue to benefit from the rich vein of technological progress Israel has to offer, whilst those in power do what suits their interests to shore up power, nothing will change. And more innocent people will die.

not a lot of genuine understanding, compassion and empathy

nobody has the moral high ground here.

Probably the two best comments I’ve seen in 137 posts on this thread.

Hamas and the Israeli government as as bad as each other.  They have both committed atrocities in the last god knows how many years.  The fact our government supports what Israel is doing is the shocking thing.   No one seems to want to criticise what Israel is currently doing with Palestine in general or the fact they are bombing civilians in Gaza.

This is absolute shite - folk always fail to understand that as well being pro liberation of Palestine, Hamas are first and foremost hard-line Islamists who seek the entire destruction of Israel and the Jews. It's their stated reason to exist. There is no agreement that could ever be reached on earth that would satisfy their aims.

The problem with the likes of Hamas, is that they simply won’t negotiate.

It does not want a 2 state solution.

It states that it wants to destroy Israel and is considered to be genocidal by many, by wanting to destroy all Jews.

When it states that it wants to liberate Palestine, it means all of Israel.

I don’t agree with Israel behaviour at times but what to do you do about something that exists only to absolutely destroy you?

For balance, let's look at just one of those in Israel's current 'democractic' government:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/02/15/israel-ben-gvir-netanyahu-government/

Ben Gvir wants to cleanse Israel of all Arabs, and is totally opposed to any form of Palestinian self-determination. So, pretty much the exact mirror of Hamas extremists. The difference is, Ittamar Ben Gvir is the head of Israeli National Security. Now; if you're a Palestinian living under Israeli oppression, are you going to think that such a person has your interests at heart? No. So now we start to understand why Hamas exists, and why it is so extremist. There is no way on earth people like Ben Gvir are ever going to agree to any peace plan that offers Palestinian statehood or self-determination. So why is the conversation about 'peace' so one-sided?

So, pretty much the exact mirror of Hamas extremists.

It's pretty grim stuff from the Israeli far right I agree.

However, it's not genocidal.

Hamas and others won't settle for anything else except the total destruction of Israel.

So why is the conversation about ‘peace’ so one-sided?

Because of f the power of the Jewish lobby around the world and the inability to criticise the state of Israel without being accused of being anti semetic. 

This is a very ominous development. It makes it impossible for American politicians to do anything to restrain Israeli retaliations. Israel knows that. The same will hold true for every other country whose citizens have been taken hostage. The smartest thing Hamas could do right now would be to release any non-Israeli hostages.

https://twitter.com/willcain/status/1711008753837801946

It’s pretty grim stuff from the Israeli far right I agree.

However, it’s not genocidal.

Hamas and others won’t settle for anything else except the total destruction of Israel.

Again, you have a one-sided view. Please read up on the various far-right extremists that make up the current Israeli cabinet.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-government-most-right-wing-meet-ministers

These are far-right extremists. Many have been convicted of various crimes including violence, many are vehemently homophobic and racist, and many would happily see the Palestinians wiped out. Please don't become an apologist for the Israeli far-right, in your quest to make Hamas out as the only bad guys. I'm not denying the evils of Hamas, or trying to play them down as some on this tread are, but it's essential to have balance in this debate.

Because of f the power of the Jewish lobby around the world and the inability to criticise the state of Israel without being accused of being anti semetic. 

I think that's a smokescreen. I believe the real reason Israeli atrocities are overlooked, is because of the flow of money, via arms sales, the technology industries, or even oil:

https://apnews.com/article/armenia-azerbaijan-nagorno-karabakh-weapons-israel-6814437bcd744acc1c4df0409a74406c

There's good reason the West turns a blind eye, and why Western media outlets won't focus too heavily on events such as this, and that's because of the extremely large sums of money involved that ultimately suit Western economic imperialism. Judaism and Jewishness really doesn't have a much of a part to play in all this; Capitalism has no barriers regarding religion or culture. What could affect things in terms of a long term situation, is if Israel does implode into a bitter fight between the far-right and secular liberalism. It's the secular, moderate Israelis who are the better educated, who are driving the tech industries and commerce. It's also the secular Israelis who are filling the ranks of the military; the religious fundamentalists refuse to join and seem to get away with it on the grounds of 'religious observance and studies'. Those affluent middle class secular Israelis, whose kids are the ones having to face Hamas, are fed up with this lurch towards extremism, and I predict some kickback. When the antics of the far-right start adversely affecting share prices, then we might start to see some foreign intervention. There is too much money tied up in Israel for Western powers to risk losing because of a bunch of fundamentalists.

To those only speaking of Hamas’ atrocities, I’d ask why your silence on those committed by the IDF?

No silence. This is by no means an uncommon topic in my family, which includes many left-wing secular Jews living in the UK and Israel.

I just really didn’t feel the need to ‘both sides’ this yesterday, and especially not when replying to someone whose only input has been variations on “What about Israsel?” and a flimsily-excused denial of the terrorist tactics of those who carried out yesterday’s attacks on civilians.

the inability to criticise the state of Israel without being accused of being anti semetic.

There's been lots of criticism of Israel in this thread and nobody's thrown any anti-Semite accusations. What are you talking about?

No silence. This is by no means an uncommon topic in my family, which includes many left-wing secular Jews living in the UK and Israel.

I just really didn’t feel the need to ‘both sides’ this yesterday, and especially not when replying to someone whose only input has been variations on “What about Israsel?” and a flimsily-excused denial of the terrorist tactics of those who carried out yesterday’s attacks on civilians.

I can understand that, but to others, condemning one side but not the other does make it look like you are partisan. And you have to accept that in terms of atrocities committed, Israel is way, way ahead. Their attacks on civilians have resulted in far more deaths and serious injuries. But I agree that the actions of Hamas must be condemned also.
My wife's nephew and partner, plus their friends, now seem to have tickets for flights to Tel Aviv. I've been secretly hoping they wouldn't get any, and would be stuck here in the UK for the foreseeable future at least. My wife is very upset by it all. The individual human stories are heartbreaking.

"Everywhere you go, you see death - Gaza doctor

I suspect that this may be true. There will be headlines for a week or two, then attention will move on to the next crisis. Hamas will be discredited as rapists and murderers and the world will ignore what happens in Gaza. Huge own goal by Hamas. Won a battle, lost the war.

https://twitter.com/ulrichspeck/status/1710928124341305411

I’m going to be charitable and suggest some people posting here haven’t bothered to look at any news.  It’s hard to see how a proclaimed 5000 rocket attack and taking people hostage is going to lead to anything except a very large reprisal mission on all of Gaza

I’m going to be charitable and suggest that you are not aware of how many UN resolutions have been ignored by the state of Israel and just how much land they have illegally occupied.

I abhor the approach of many people and the state of Israel that people who state they understand that the  state of Israel bad behaved illegally and broken international law - are antisemitic.  

I as many people, believe that Jewish people do need a state and have been victimised throughout history, but that state needs to behave legally.  That doesn’t mean they are entitled to behave with impunity.

I suspect that this may be true. There will be headlines for a week or two, then attention will move on to the next crisis. Hamas will be discredited as rapists and murderers and the world will ignore what happens in Gaza. Huge own goal by Hamas. Won a battle, lost the war.

I disagree. I think this is your own bias talking here. You have to understand that not everyone sees it as you do; there are those who see the opposite, and those who see varying shades of grey and nuance. What will happen, is that there will undoubtedly be a lot of debate and arguing in Israel itself, as different actions attempt to ascribe blame. Further afield, social media will be awash with opinion, and once again the spectre of illegal occupation by Israel will raise its ugly head. And you're forgetting the hostages; no that it's known that there are multiple foreign people involved, those respective governments will be urging Israel to act with extreme caution. The Israeli government, of course, will not want to listen, as usual. But if US nationals for instance are harmed or killed as a result of Israeli retaliation, then that will open up a massive can of works in terms of diplomacy and politics. The central topic of debate globally right now, isn't really Hamas and their atrocities; it's why this situation occurs in the first place, and in that regard, the buck stops with Israel. Many Israelis already believe that their lives are put at unnecessary risk by the belligerence of the government, so an escalation of that will definitely lead to greater vociferation and condemnation. And of course, there will also be many who will call for the annihilation of Palestine and its people. So, far from being an 'own goal' by Hamas, if you choose to reduce matters to such crass terms, it will merely inflame opinions on all sides. As it has on this very thread. People need to put their own bias to one side, to drop the rhetoric, and think of the human consequences.

People need to put their own bias to one side, to drop the rhetoric, and think of the human consequences.

This.

If we want to go back decades - my own grandfather was shot and injured by an Israeli settler.  He wasn’t a Palestinian objecting and rebelling against giving land to settlers - he was an English soldier, serving in Palestine.  The settlers decided that the English government and its soldiers were not working quickly enough.  

He never forgave the state of Israel for some of the atrocities he saw.  A someone who also guarded prisoners at Nuremburg and saw the atrocities presented in the trials - atrocities against Jews, homosexuals, the disabled and other opponents of the Nazi regime, he couldn’t believe that Jewish people acted so horrifically towards others.

I can understand that, but to others, condemning one side but not the other does make it look like you are partisan.

To my thinking, it’s those who ‘both sides’ or ‘what about’ when one side attacks the other who look partisan*. It implicitly, or in some cases explicitly, excuses the acts of the attackers.

The attackers see support, the attacked see more enemies.

Sometimes you just need to keep it simple: condemn the killers and call for peace.

There have been plenty of other opportunities this year for a both sides thread.

*Not as partisan as the people actually celebrating, such as those in London yesterday, but the ‘both siders’ help them feel justified too.

To my thinking, it’s those who ‘both sides’ or ‘what about’ when one side attacks the other who look partisan*. 

But why? Aren't people simply asking for balance? In order to understand any conflict, you have to look at both sides.  Which people have down here, but some are choosing to focus only on one side, as it better suits their own narrative to do so. That's understandable, but people should be more mindful of the nuance and accepting different perspectives. 

It implicitly, or in some cases explicitly, excuses the acts of the attackers.

Again, this is a perspective coloured by personal bias. You can't accuse someone of this just because they disagree with you. Because you may well be wrong, and it doesn't further the discussion any. 

Sometimes you just need to keep it simple: condemn the killers and call for peace.

Sure, but let's apply the condemnation equally, and not be partisan. 

*Not as partisan as the people actually celebrating, such as those in London yesterday, but the ‘both siders’ help them feel justified too.

I've witnessed this. In an area of North London with a large Orthodox Jewish population. I think it's abhorrent and extremely provocative, but then I want to understand why people are acting this way, rather than simply condemning them. The people doing this seem to be young men of Middle Eastern/North African appearance, so I'm assuming Muslim. To me, they appear uneducated and naive, and have a simplistic view of the world, bereft of nuance or any deeper understanding. They're angry young men who want to vent their own frustrations at inequality, and Jews become their target, because they fail to de-conflate Jews with Israel. I doubt they've ever engaged in any meaningful discussion about the subject, and just see it as something to kick off about. It's aggressive, threatening and frightening. And it needs condemning for what it is, but not before understanding where that anger comes from. Because if you don't try to understand the root cause, you cannot deal with the problem. I'm sure that those young men, if you were to explain things in a rational and relatable way, would have more of a think about things, and why their actions are harmful and deeply offensive. But expressing their solidarity with those choosing to fight against what they are seeing as injustice,  that's got to be acknowledged for what it is and where it comes from. Understand, don't hate. 

A someone who also guarded prisoners at Nuremburg and saw the atrocities presented in the trials – atrocities against Jews, homosexuals, the disabled and other opponents of the Nazi regime, he couldn’t believe that Jewish people acted so horrifically towards others.

Behaving horrifically towards others is a human trait unfortunately. Every religion, race and nationality has the potential to behave that way if circumstances permit.

Behaving horrifically towards others is a human trait unfortunately. Every religion, race and nationality has the potential to behave that way if circumstances permit.

Probably a poor choice of words on my part, he had seen it and new it happened - but he was extremely disappointed.  

His beliefs hugely influenced mine, he didn’t believe that nations who persecuted others and used violence to oppress and control   

Our next set of horrors is Israel is going to retaliate. Hamas isn't going to make any headway now the entire Israeli army has been mobilized, and we will have pockets of hamas terrorists firing from populated urban areas which will be met by heavy rocket bombardment from Israel. The only people who are going to suffer now is the Palestinian families who live in those areas and have no say or ability to stop the terrorists launching attacks, but will bear the full brunt of all the counter attacks.

Israel will be exonerated by the main world players for these strikes, even though they will be against civilians in densely populated urban areas.

Hamas arent stupid, they know the response will be a ground invasion of Gaza. They'll be ready and hiding in the civ popluation. They'll have able to give the IDF a hard time whilist ensuring the civ pop get a pasting too. Urban warfare is awful.

https://samf.substack.com/p/hamas-attacks-israel

But why? Aren’t people simply asking for balance? In order to understand any conflict, you have to look at both sides.

I thought I explained it well, but I will try again.

If you call for balance during one side’s attack, you diminish its significance and implicitly excuse it.

If you go straight to whataboutery, it explicitly excuses and even justifies the violence that’s happening at that moment, and it does so using the same reasoning that lead to the aggression.

There’s a time to “apply condemnation equally” but it’s not when one side is in the midst of committing indiscriminate murder.