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Never ending this. Thoughts the conflict ends with both sides taking note of their own failings.
It is an inalienable fact that there cannot be peace without justice.
Which is why Israel is prepared to be in a permanent state of war. Justice for the Palestinians is not an option for them, and not least when their casualty figures are so low in comparison with those of the Palestinians.
Remove Netanyaho and his right wing zionist nut jobs then, perhaps, we can have peace and reconciliation
A massive failure of intelligence?
Or deliberately allow them to mass people and weapons to launch an attack, which then they put down with overwhelming force?
I notice the reservists who were protesting against the far right government, have ceased their protest and picked up their rifles.
Killing Israeli civilians is the best propaganda that right-wing Israelis can hope for.
When you say "civilians" do you mean armed settlers?
Many of the hundreds of settlers who raided the town of Turmus Ayya, north of Ramallah, on Wednesday were armed.
The settler attack reinforced questions from rights groups, who accuse the military of enjoying a cosy relationship with settlers to the point of doing little to fulfil its international legal obligation of protecting civilians.
The most rightwing government in Israeli history is moving ahead with illegal settlement activity and massive infrastructure plans and appears determined to make the territory occupied during the 1967 war an integral part of Israel.
When you say “civilians” do you mean armed settlers?
I mean Israelis who aren't in the armed forces and just going about their daily business. When Palestinians kill Israeli civilians, it turns the world against Palestinians. Utterly counterproductive.
I mean Israelis who aren’t in the armed forces and just going about their daily business.
So that includes the armed civilians who go about their daily business in illegally held occupied land then.
The Palestinian people gave up a long time ago from expecting anything from the international community beyond toothless UN resolutions condemning Israel.
Global public opinion shifted in favour of the Palestinian people a long time ago, but with western governments refusing to provide any support for them it amounts to nothing.
Killing Israeli civilians has no military purpose and just turns people against Palestinians. It's a propaganda coup for the Israeli hard-right.
I refer to my earlier comment:
Justice for the Palestinians is not an option for them, and not least when their casualty figures are so low in comparison with those of the Palestinians.
The only time Israel has been defeated and driven out of illegally occupied territory was when Hezbollah inflicted heavy casualties on them in South Lebanon, previous to that Israel simply ignored UN resolutions condemning their illegal occupation.
Public opinion will not bring justice for the Palestinians.
You can't keep an entire people in what amounts to an open prison then be surprised when you get a backlash
I’m sure the Israeli reaction will be huge and applied indiscriminately to the entire Palestinian population, as per usual
I’m sure the Israeli reaction will be huge and applied indiscriminately to the entire Palestinian population, as per usual
Firing dozens of rockets into areas of civilian population seems indiscriminate. So for a bit of balance I’ll condemn that. No winners in this one I think.
I imagine those areas of Israeli civilian population were previously Palestinian owned, similar to how Russia occupied Crimea and deserve everything thrown at them from Ukraine, no sympathy for Israeli settlers from me.
I imagine those areas of Israeli civilian population were previously Palestinian owned, similar to how Russia occupied Crimea and deserve everything thrown at them from Ukraine, no sympathy for Israeli settlers from me.
You imagine, eh? Would it not be sensible to find out what actually happened before you start cheering on killing civilians? Israeli right-wingers claim that nobody cares about Jews being killed so Israel can never trust any treaty or peace agreement. Western lefties cheering on the killing of Israeli civilians gives those right-wingers exactly the propaganda they want.
I'm going to be charitable and suggest some people posting here haven't bothered to look at any news. It's hard to see how a proclaimed 5000 rocket attack and taking people hostage is going to lead to anything except a very large reprisal mission on all of Gaza
I imagine those areas of Israeli civilian population were previously Palestinian owned, similar to how Russia occupied Crimea and deserve everything thrown at them from Ukraine, no sympathy for Israeli settlers from me.
Likewise. It's been a steady incursion, with settlers taking more and more land, their government destroying age old farms and preventing the people from returning and rebuilding their shattered lives.
And yet where there is condemnation for Russia, the world is less than silent when it comes to Palestinian claims and justice.
A lot of the usual "me so clever" takes from the armchair politicians.
I'm currently being evacuated to the north of Israel after spending a morning under direct rocket attack. I've got colleagues and their families hunkering down in rocket shelters while Hamas run wild in the streets killing everyone they see. So far today I've seen videos of dead soldiers dragged through the streets of Gaza while jubilant Palestineans kick and spit on their corpses, I've seen dead pensioners gunned down at the bus stop, I've seen the piles of bodies - men, women, children and babies - inside rocket shelters that Hamas forced entry into and machine-gunned everyone inside, I've seen the physical beating of Palestinean women in Jerusalem in misplaced retribution for morning's attacks, I've seen smoke rising over Ashkelon and Ashdod from the attacks and I've watched the IAF unleash destruction on Gaza City.
The Palestinean people are brainwashed fools fed only what propaganda Hamas give them and out dancing in the streets, the Israelis are really out for blood this time, what's left of Hamas will climb out of the wreckage of the office buildings and supermarkets they were using as human shields and claim Israel have responded disproportionately, the social justice warriors safe behind their keyboards will trumpet the same old zero effort "poor Palestine, down with Israel" tripe that they think marks them out as bastions of righteousness, and all the while Iran will be rubbing its hands in glee for having its proxies throw a spanner in the works of the ongoing Israel-Saudi peace talks.
Do I agree with how the Israeli government is dealing with the settlements in Gaza and the West Bank? Absolutely not, but if you think this can be distilled down to "well ackshewally, this is all Israel's fault because..." your critical thinking skills aren't as astute as you think they are.
no sympathy for Israeli settlers from me.
You should be ****ing ashamed of yourself
And yet where there is condemnation for Russia, the world is less than silent when it comes to Palestinian claims.
The consistent thing to do is to condemn Israel's treatment of Palestinians and also condemn Palestinians' killing of Israeli civilians. What happened today is going to make things much, much worse for Palestinians.
A bad day but inevitable with equally inevitable consequences. Nothing will change until the American government starts treating Israeli illegal occupations I the same way it does Russian ones. I doubt I will live long enough to see that hypocrisy end
no sympathy for Israeli settlers from me.
You should be **** ashamed of yourself
What other country anywhere in the world has "settlers" in 2023?
I fully support the Palestinian's right to violently oppose an illegal occupation of their land, a right which is fully enshrined under international law.
Moving "civilians" into occupied territories is a clear violation of the Geneva Convention. Israel should be held to account for this but of course they won't be, which is why it is down to the Palestinian resistant movement.
And if the inaccuracy of their rockets is an issue then the solution is simple - arm them with advanced weapons which can be used at precise targets.
Hezbollah are joining in now.
This is only going to get much, much worse.
….and there was me thinking mass murder, torture, kidnapping followed by the indiscriminate bombing of civilians with inevitably thousands more casualties could only be a bad thing….how wrong can you be 🤷🏻
Moving “civilians” into occupied territories is a clear violation of the Geneva Convention.
Which one? There are four Geneva Conventions.
The problem with trying to invoke Geneva Conventions is that Palestinians have been violating them for decades so you'd have to put Palestinian leaders on trial if you wanted to put Israelis on trial. This is one of the most effective propaganda tools that right-wing Israelis have - their claim is that the world ignores the killing of Israeli civilians but condemns Israel's acts of self-defense. Cheering on the killing of Israeli civilians just gives them ammunition and makes things worse for Palestinians.
Hezbollah are joining in now.
Are they? There was an anonymous Israeli source earlier which suggested that this might be a diversionary tactic to prelude a full scale attack from Hezbollah.
If Hezbollah are involved this will have been a very carefully thought out plan. As the most powerful and best equipped irregular army in the world they don't mess about with pointless muscle flexing.
And btw the very existence of Hezbollah is the responsibility of Israel - they were created specifically to drive Israel out of illegal occupied South Lebanon, which of course they succeeded in doing.
no sympathy for Israeli settlers from me.<br />You should be **** ashamed of yourself<br /><br />
Not at all until Israel returns to its original borders and stops using its own citizens as human shields to maintain their illegal occupation. Israel has the right to defend those original borders but nothing else
Which one? There are four Geneva Conventions.
Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention states: “The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.”
the Fourth Geneva Convention states
Is that the one that prohibits murder of civilians, which is what Israel has been complaining about for decades?
I completely agree that the Israeli settlements are illegal and should be returned to Palestinians. Problem is, if you want to force Israel to comply with the Geneva Conventions, you will need to force Palestinians to comply too. Palestinian leaders won't accept that so you would need the U.N. or somebody to send armed troops in to arrest Palestinians and put them on trial. Nobody is willing to do that so Israeli right-wingers have a potent propaganda tool. When people cheer on the killing of Israeli civilians, they are just giving Israel license to keep up their occupation and land confiscation. I'm not condemning today's attacks because I support Israel's policies, but because the killing of Israeli civilians makes it impossible to improve the situation for Palestinians.
Are they? There was an anonymous Israeli source earlier which suggested that this might be a diversionary tactic to prelude a full scale attack from Hezbollah.
https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1710659162743386421
Is that the one that prohibits murder of civilians, which is what Israel has been complaining about for decades?
What on earth are you talking about?
Israel has "murdered", as you call it, far more civilians than the Palestinian resistance could ever hope to.
Have you been marooned on an uninhabited island for the last few decades?
'You can’t keep an entire people in what amounts to an open prison then be surprised when you get a backlash'
You hit the nail on the head there Binners.
What on earth are you talking about?
Well, for a couple of very famous incidents, the killing of Israeli athletes at the Olympic Games and the Entebbe hijacking. But that's just a couple of the most famous, there have been literally thousands of rocket attacks on Israel over the last few decades, aimed indiscriminately at civilians.
Every time those attacks happen and people brush them off as "well, Israelis deserve it," Israeli right-wingers are handed the most effective propaganda tool they could ever ask for. It allows them to argue that nobody cares about Jews being killed so Israel can never trust any treaty or agreement.
Yes, Israel should be forced to return confiscated land, but the only way that will happen is if Palestinians are also forced to comply with the Geneva Conventions. That means putting people on trial for the killing of Israeli civilians. No Israeli leader is ever going to agree to a peace agreement where Israel is required to abide by the Geneva Conventions but Palestinians aren't. That's why it's important to condemn the killing of Israeli civilians, if you cheer on the killing of Israeli civilians, you're just handing Israeli right-wingers the propaganda they want.
No Israeli leader is ever going to agree to a peace agreement where Israel is required to abide by the Geneva Conventions. but Palestinians aren’t
ftfy
the killing of Israeli athletes at the Olympic Games and the Entebbe hijacking.
Are you really are that desperate to justify Israel's murderous tactics that you have to drag up events which occurred 50 years?
I reckon that speak volumes.
Have a read of this from Relief Web, a United Nations agency:
Israel killed five times as many Palestinians in 2022 than it killed in the same period in 2021
Was that in retaliation for Entebbe?
Edit: That report makes very interesting reading, for those who are apparently unaware of such things:
The Israeli politicians bear full responsibility for the killings of Palestinians, especially those unarmed women and children killed in cold blood without posing any threat to the lives of Israeli soldiers.
Dozens of Israelis dead, hundreds of Palestinians already dead with no doubt many more to follow, but….yay, revolution….
Well all I can say is I just wish people would stop being such arseholes to each other. this world is feeling more and more unstable. seems people are thinking nows the time to settle old scores.
I just hope it stops quickly and casualties on both sides are as minimal as they can be.
Are you really are that desperate to justify Israel’s murderous tactics that you have to drag up events which occurred 50 years?
The most potent propaganda that Israeli right-wingers have is that the world doesn't care about Jews being killed. Attacks on Israeli civilians have been happening for many decades, that's exactly the point that Israeli right-wingers make. Dismissing them because they happened 50 years ago is just confirming the claim that nobody cares about the killing of Jews. Cheering on the events of today is the best propaganda that right-wingers could possibly ask for.
<em style="box-sizing: border-box; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-color: rgb(59 130 246 / 0.5); --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000;">Israel killed five times as many Palestinians in 2022 than it killed in the same period in 2021
Was that in retaliation for Entebbe?
Sadly likely to be higher again in 2023 but not retaliation for Entebbe. You seem to have a total hard on for the murder of innocent Israeli civilians. I’m guessing you’ve never been in a conflict zone but happy to pontificate from the comfort of your armchair.
Does @FlyingOxs post not give you some pause to reflect?
Unfortunately an escalated conflict will suit the leadership on both sides.
This is sadly true.
You seem to have a total hard on for the murder of innocent Israeli civilians.
Classy stuff mate.
I can't comment on whether it is sexual but you seem to have a total and callous disregard for the murder of innocent Palestinian civilians.
I posted this but you are obviously completely dismissive of such things:
"The Israeli politicians bear full responsibility for the killings of Palestinians, especially those unarmed women and children killed in cold blood without posing any threat to the lives of Israeli soldiers."
It is not be what FlyingOx has said but it is what a United Nations agency has reported.
Suddenly it becomes a serious issue because Israeli civilians are dying, as long as the only civilians dying are Palestinians then it isn't anything to be too concerned about.
Ernie - simple question - kidnap of Isreali civilians last night - is that OK with you? Yes or no?
Of course he isn't, what a dumb troll question.
Would you ask that sort of question in response to those who wrote this article in the Guardian?
I don't recall a thread concerning that development back in June, why? Civilians definitely died. In fact they were murdered.
But presumably those particular civilians don't matter, eh?
But presumably those particular civilians don’t matter, eh?
What a stupid thing to say.
Okay, what then is your explanation to why there wasn't thread on that incident, Palestinian civilians do matter but not quite as much as Israeli civilians?
I don't expect a thread every time civilians are murdered in a conflict but it is alarming imo how it suddenly becomes a particularly sensitive issue when the civilians are Israeli.
Okay, what is your explanation to why there wasn’t thread on the incident,
I assume because you don't care enough about Palestinian civilians. As you said yourself, they don't matter.
I have just pointed out "I don’t expect a thread every time civilians are murdered in a conflict".
It appears to me that only time there is a thread on stw concerning the Palestinian-Israeli conflict it is when there has been several Israeli casualties or the Palestinian resistance launches a significant attack.
The idea that Palestinian and Israeli civilian deaths are treated with equal horror is frankly ridiculous.
It appears to me that only time there is a thread on stw concerning the Palestinian-Israeli conflict it is when there has been several Israeli casualties or the Palestinian resistance launches a significant attack.
Something you are free to alter, but perhaps you're more interested in an argument than the plight of Palestinian civilians.
perhaps you’re more interested in an argument
He says after posting:
As you said yourself, they don’t matter.
Yeah, you're not just looking for an argument at all, I really did say that the Palestinians "don't matter" 🙄
Yeah, you’re not just looking for an argument at all, I really did say that the Palestinians “don’t matter” 🙄
Yep, when you impugned the motives of another poster on the basis of no evidence whatsoever. On the other hand your mealy mouthed excuses for the targeting of civilians are instructive.
It appears to me that only time there is a thread on stw concerning the Palestinian-Israeli conflict it is when there has been several Israeli casualties or the Palestinian resistance launches a significant attack.
Just to be clear that ^^ wasn't aimed as a criticism of what is posted concerning the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, this latest development is undoubtedly a huge news story which clearly deserves a thread.
The comment was in relation of what is perceived to be newsworthy. The day to day repression and murder of Palestinians gets relatively little coverage, if any at all.
'Do you agree with this ? No response
Retort - 'Do you agree with this ? No response.
Can we stop this pointless roundabout ?
Just to be clear that ^^ wasn’t aimed as a criticism of what is posted concerning the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, this latest development is undoubtedly a huge news story which clearly deserves a thread.
Give over. You were replying to wbo then quite clearly questioned their motives.
Can we stop this pointless roundabout ?
Perhaps they are trying to represent the conflict via forum messages.
Each side blaming the other and claiming they have to respond to the last atrocity ad infinitum.
You were replying to wbo then quite clearly questioned their motives.
You think that dragging the thread into the gutter and talking about "hard ons" is acceptable? Really?
Edit: Ah I see the problem, a mod appears to have deleted his post, I will assume that you didn't see it ransos.
The irony of this thread mirroring the conflict...
...an absolute ****ing shitshow.
Well this is edifying.....
Anyway I reckon the one thing that we can take away from this is that the world (and stw) only starts talking about Palestine when the Palestinians launch an aggressive attack against Israel.
What message does that send out to the Palestinian people?
Anyway I reckon the one thing that we can take away from this is that the world (and stw) only starts talking about Palestine when the Palestinians launch an aggressive attack against Israel.
You said you don't expect a thread on it, and didn't bother to start one, yet criticise others for the same. I find it difficult to believe that you are posting in good faith.
But as others have said, this is unedifying, so I'm getting out of the gutter
Anyway I reckon the one thing that we can take away from this is that the world (and stw) only starts talking about Palestine when the Palestinians launch an aggressive attack against Israel.
The day to day low level conflict does become background and ignored by the media after a while. After all its no longer news so only a major change gets the headlines.
If the Israelis launched an all out attack first it would have also got the news.
It is clearly a problem and it does look like Hamas are at least partially responding to the normalising of relations by Saudi Arabia and others. Unfortunately that pushes them pretty much into Iran sphere of influence and given the Iranian government doesnt give a toss about its own citizens let alone Palestinians and definitely not Israeli that is more likely to result in an aggressive posture.
Its depressing but outside of a Mandela being elected in both Israel and Palestinian national authority at the same time there doesnt seem to be any light at the end of the tunnel.
The Israeli approach mostly keeps a lid on things (this being an obvious exception (edit for stupidity)) but at the cost of leaving a bunch of young Palestinians, especially males, not being able to see a normal future and hence being prey to the promises of extremists offering status via alternate means.
I fear both the Palestinians and the Israeli right wing government need another conflict to be able to get attention/support for their respective causes. One being infinitely more worthy than the other.
What a ****ing disastrous mess. Again.
Well, when Shireen Abu Akleh, an Al Jazeera reporter, was shot in the face and killed by Israeli troopers while reporting on an Israeli Army incursion over a year ago, I was tempted to start a thread about the incident. The way this one has developed has only underpinned my thought process at the time. It would have been asking for a pile-on. I absolutely despair about the hypocrisy on show in the Middle East.
The world has ignored incursions by Israel, in fact outwith Al Jazeera it isnt going to make the news, So the lack of condemnation is tantamount to encouragement. So support for the Palestinian people is a natural response.
However, Hamas is clearly a brutal terrorist organization, which doesn't appear to care about the Palestinian plight and are just bigots like other fundamentalists, and what this has done is set back the support anyone in the western world has had for the Palestinian people.
Both sides appear to be currently targeting civilians. Or rather I should say having no thought for civilians caught in their crossfire.
What I find puzzling is how despite global public opinion slowly but relentlessly shifting more and more in favour of the Palestinians, as a direct result of Israeli government behaviour, established Western political parties, well certainly in the UK and probably the US, are becoming evermore intolerant of any criticism made against Israel.
The Liberal Democrat foreign affairs has actually been strongly critised for this post on twitter:
Deeply concerned by reports from Gaza and Israel. Civilians must be protected, I am especially horrified to hear about hostage taking, and all violence condemned. This is a significant escalation. I can't see how it ends well for anyone.
I have witnessed so many people slowly change from a staunchly pro Israeli position to one of outspoken criticism.
For me by far the most remarkable conversion was that of onetime staunch Zionist Gerald Kaufman. And Kaufman was no leftie, he was firmly on the right of the Labour Party and if he was still alive undoubtedly a Starmer supporter.
"It is time to remind Sharon that the Star of David belongs to all Jews, not to his repulsive Government. His actions are staining the star of David with blood. The Jewish people, whose gifts to civilised discourse include Einstein and Epstein, Mendelssohn and Mahler, Sergei Eisenstein and Billy Wilder, are now symbolised throughout the world by the blustering bully Ariel Sharon, a war criminal implicated in the murder of Palestinians at the Sabra and Shatila camps and now involved in killing Palestinians once again."
Kaufman in a speech given to the House of Commons, during Israel's military operation codenamed Defensive Shield in April 2002
I can't imagine that speech being given today in the House of Commons. Or if it was Kaufman would be expelled from the Labour Party for antisemitism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Kaufman
Totally agree, well said.
However, Hamas is clearly a brutal terrorist organization, which doesn’t appear to care about the Palestinian plight and are just bigots like other fundamentalists, and what this has done is set back the support anyone in the western world has had for the Palestinian people.
Partially agree. Politically it's going to be harder to support them but I don't think anyone is going to change their minds on Isreals track record.
As with Isreal the state =/= the people.
“all violence condemned”
When one group launched an attack that intentionally targeted not just civilians but children. Abductions and executions. Parading and defiling the bodies of the murdered.
Damn right she got criticised for it.
That's your opinion. The idea that the Palestinian resistance deliberately targets their extremely limited resources at civilians, rather than useful military assets, is daft in my opinion.
The killing of Palestinian children by Israeli forces, who have a completely limitless access to weaponry, is well documented - see the link to United Nations agency article further up the page.
The idea that the Palestinian resistance deliberately targets their extremely limited resources at civilians, rather than useful military assets, is daft in my opinion.
It wasn't an accident
The idea that the Palestinian resistance deliberately targets their extremely limited resources at civilians, rather than useful military assets, is daft in my opinion.
Over the years there have been hundreds of direct attacks on Israeli civilians by Palestinians. Suicide bombings on buses, schools, restaurants, mass shootings, car bombings and stabbings on randomly selected civilians.
There are reports coming out of Sderot today of people being being dragged out of their cars randomly and having their throats slit.
I deplore the Israeli blockade of Gaza and their disproportionate retaliatory violence directed at its citizens. I support a Palestinian state and complete Israeli withdrawal from the settlements. But to say Palestinian armed groups don't also target civilians is just wilful ignorance.
@ernielynch these were executions of children, you ghoulish, morally-bankrupt terrorism apologist.
you ghoulish, morally-bankrupt terrorism apologist.
Well it's obviously impossible to have any reasonable debate over the issue.
Twice previously I have posted this link
Which includes:
At least eight field executions were recorded under the pretext of suspicion or attempted stabbing, as the Israeli army left all the victims to bleed to death. The injured were not provided with any first aid in flagrant violation of the rules of international humanitarian law.
The Israeli politicians bear full responsibility for the killings of Palestinians, especially those unarmed women and children killed in cold blood without posing any threat to the lives of Israeli soldiers.
I can't see that you have condemned that. Would it be fair to call you a ghoulish, morally-bankrupt terrorism apologist?
I really don't know enough to comment on the rights and wrongs of either side, but what is quite eye opening is my instagram feed being bombarded with pro Israel posts tonight. Not like my usual posts are the kind of thing that would drive that kind of content to my timeline and other than this thread I haven't clicked on anything else to do with the subject. Virtually every recommended post is some random person with a post or video condemning Hamas and supporting Israel