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Are we not animals now?
Under EU law, animals are currently recognised as being capable of feeling pain and emotion. But MPs have this week voted to drop the inclusion of animal sentience into the Withdrawal Bill.
Just us and the aliens then?
False news. Gove promised higher standards following Brexit and he would never lie...
Anyone know the background to this? Who’s lobbying? What’s the agenda?
Taking back control.....
I'm off to tweak a rabbit and there's nuthin' you snowflake libtards can do about it.....
Is there a more repulsive politician than Gove?
Hard to choose between him, Boris, IDS, Redwood and Hannan, but Gideon just shades it.
What’s the agenda?
Removing pesky restrictions on animal welfare in order to exploit animals more fully. At a guess. Bloodsports? Fox-hunting and badger-baiting can't be cruel if foxes and badges aren't legally sentient.
Green Party MP Caroline Lucas had submitted an amendment clause (NC30) to the EU (Withdrawal) Bill, which sought to transfer the EU Protocol on animal sentience set out in Article 13 of Title II of the Lisbon Treaty into UK law, so animals continue to be recognised as sentient beings under domestic law.At the end of an eight-hour parliamentary debate, the new clause was rejected, with an 18 majority for the Government – 313 against, 295 in favour.
More here:
Vile man. I presume shame is an emotion he does not feel.
experimenting on animals...can't hurt them if they're not sentient.
what a steaming pile of arseholes the Tories are
8 hours to review common sense then overturn it?
I’m waiting for some Karma, we’re told what goes around comes around.. quite when seems a long way a way.
I think it was overturned purely for the fact that the Bullington club can now use real live Pigs for thier perversions. 😈
At a guess. Bloodsports? Fox-hunting and badger-baiting can't be cruel if foxes and badges aren't legally sentient.
FFS, what a bunch of utter ****ers 🙁
Make you wonder what else will sneak through almost unnoticed by the public in all the noise of brexit 🙁
I’m ashamed to be British
Where can we find a list of MP’s that voted for this?
Our Lizard overlords won't like that .
List of MPs who vote aye and no at the bottom... https://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2017-11-15a.475.0
Got you lot know how to make a storm from a tea cup. Our welfare standards in all respects are higher than Europe but don't let that get in the way of a good froth.
Fwiw, Badger control, including the use of dogs beneath ground (not baiting!) is perfectly legal in France regardless of the sentient sideshow!
[url= https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00J8K6JMQ/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1 ]Bête by Adam Roberts never looked more prescient...[/url]
Someone needs to tell my dog as she certainly seemed to know what pain was after catching her claw in the car boot lock yesterday.
That's utterly disgusting, I'm not sure how to express.. I'm speechless.
And they say they want to use the so called 'repeal' bill purely to make the administrative process less laborious..
The true colours are shining now..
Even if you don't care about animal welfare this should be sounding an alarm for everyone who thinks we'll transfer all the EU laws and protections to UK law when/if we leave. If you want to imagine the future...
Indeed.. It's very obvious they want to rip up any law that stops them creaming in the cash for thier offshore accounts, and **** every one else.
How can that be a law? Its like saying water isn't wet ffs.
More votes for Labour
They also voted down an amendment to keep all our EU based employment rights after leaving the EU....
You can see the agenda here, bin all health and safety legislation and just focus on becoming a low wage, low skill, tax haven for billionaire newspaper owners.
Vile man. I presume shame is an emotion he does not feel.
He would, but he’s not sentient.
He would, but he’s not sentient.
There's definitely some strong irony in this decision.
Disgusting.
It shows you how much their word is worth when they say they’d just transfer all EU law into UK law.
When we said we’d transfer all laws, we didn’t actually mean ALL....
Amazingly Chris failing Grayling voted like a ****.
He is on my put up the bunting when he dies list.
****.
Human beings are Animals, there is really no diference biologically.
We just are so arrogant we have classified ourselves as separate.
Our track record bears much evidence of being non sentient.
Amazingly Chris failing Grayling voted like a *.
He is on my put up the bunting when he dies list.
*.
He's been on mine since he ****ed the prison service. The blokes a prick.
Got you lot know how to make a storm from a tea cup. Our welfare standards in all respects are higher than Europe but don't let that get in the way of a good froth.Fwiw, Badger control, including the use of dogs beneath ground (not baiting!) is perfectly legal in France regardless of the sentient sideshow!
Good to see so many outraged about animal welfare legislation, just in time to see them go and order their Christmas Turkey from Bernard Matthews
If this is such a big deal where were Labour ?
Voting to try to stop it for the most part. Look at the for/against breakdown.
jambalaya - MemberIf this is such a big deal where were Labour ?
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Removing pesky restrictions on animal welfare in order to exploit animals more fully. At a guess. Bloodsports? Fox-hunting and badger-baiting can't be cruel if foxes and badges aren't legally sentient.
I think the push will be from farming industry, they stand to make the most from not having to adhere to current animal welfare standards. I'm sure a lot of the big farmers will be significant tory donors. One of the tories mooted dropping animal welfare regs so the industry could "self regulate" a couple of years ago but there was a big outcry and it was shelved.
Human beings are Animals, there is really no diference biologically.
They are, but some of us animals are prepared to make concessions to ease the suffering of others, that's called ethics.
I think the push will be from farming industry
It will, but not in the way you think.
The removal of this law is to allow cheap imports of meat that's been in humanly treated.
Because imported inhumane meat is cheaper.
There's a lot to cover. But for now:
[url= https://action.ciwf.org.uk/ea-action/action?ea.client.id=119&ea.campaign.id=82236&ea.tracking.id=7774353c&utm_campaign=politics&utm_source=actionemail&utm_medium=email&ea.url.id=1145923 ]Take action[/url]
And, lest we forget:
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#torystories
Thanks for that..done.
I suspect those who have kids will have a hard time explaining this to them, certainly if they voted Brexit.
I can hear it now “ daddy you and mom voted Brexit didn’t you, so why don’t you care about animal welfare?”
Good luck, but i suspect you’ll not say a word, just continue to stick your heads in the sand.. and think “yea whatevs”
and then continue eating your bacon and sausages and then move on
No offence but if you really GAS stop eating them - they dont really like that bit however "nice" you decide to slaughter them
It's how we're going to win the global race to attract investment post-Brexit.
A world leader in tax avoidance/evasion and experimenting on animals. I can feel my chest swelling with national pride......or is it bile and puke rising in my stomach?
It'll appease the swivel-eyed loons who've been just waiting to overturn any snowflake legislation that stops them chasing and torturing animals to get themselves off.
Of course, raising animals and selling the produce will become much harder due to incompatible legislation.. in a post Brexit world..
“We’d like to,sell you some UK meat”
“Non, merci”
Which of course leads us back down the shit farming practices as Chicken Battery Farms..
My local MP voted "No". Could somebody draft up a suitable email to send to our local MP's if we're against their decision? I mean in my mind it's clear animals perceive pain so maybe there's another definition of the word sentient that I'm not aware of?
I can feel my chest swelling with national pride......or is it bile and puke rising in my stomach?
It's that feeling of racing to the bottom.
Plenty of inhumane treatment of animals within the EU (which has a track record of ignoring the abuses not least in Pork production in Eastern Europe which is still able to be impirted into the UK). The “sentinal” designation makes no difference to hunting which is widely practiced in Europe (much more so than in UK) nor indeed bull fighting in Spain for example.
I did check and Labour did indeed vote against, I had wondered whether this was one of the amendments Corbyn had ordered his MPs to abstain on.
Sorry, and it might just be my failing here, but what is your point here? All I see is whatabouterry
and so it starts.
First they came for the animals, but I did not speak out because I'm not an animal...
before anybody throws Godwin accusations at me, that's not the direction I'm heading here - the point is that whether or not you care about animal welfare (or still eat bacon) this is just the first example of rolling back "pesky" European law which handcuffs companies and stops them making a profit.
I guess that it's the life sciences bods that are already drooling in anticipation?
What happened to the animal rights people?
They seemed to garner more publicity 'back then' (1970's to early 1990's)
Might be worth protesting over the amendment by walking out, en-masse, from premier league/ rugby/ cricket matches.
For inspiration...
Pranks (Re/Search, No. 11) https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0940642107/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_dfneAb63N82KJ
First question why would you remove it? Don't think anyone has come up with a good reason yet. Perhaps this should be the default position for all of the transfers of laws. It's in unless you have a good reason to remove it and will admit what that is.
I guess that it's the life sciences bods that are already drooling in anticipation?
UK legislation on research (and, indeed, other) animals has been far ahead of other European countries for decades, long before this was inserted in the Lisbon Treaty.
I see our local Tory drone voted no.
What a surprise.
Hope the Tories get obliterated at the next election. Not so much for this but for the utter contempt they show for and sort of care in society.
For humans or animals!
Don't forget they are treating the NHS and the people it serves...US, with the same contempt.
They are just more efficient at killing animals.
Makes my blood boil.
But ninfan that is not a reason for removing it. Looks like a backwards step, can you come up with any good reason to remove it?
Signed and shared.
What sort of ****tards do we have running this country that they decide that animals are not capable of feeling fear or pain? And why repeal it, if not to set a path to lower/easier animal welfare standards, increased animal testing or bring back fox hunting??
Utterly disgusting, the government should be ashamed of itself.
Surprise surprise our new local Tory MP against it.
The prick really does seem to lack any form of redeeming human qualities.
👿
From a speech Gove made in July 2017 when he answered questions in the HoC after being made sec of State of Farming and Rural Affairs
[i]"The Government have made it clear that we intend, as a minimum, to retain our existing standards of environmental and animal welfare once we have left the EU".[/i]
and more crucially in a direct question about animal setinece
[i]Q: Henry Smith MP (Crawley): Can my right hon. Friend confirm that article 13 of the Lisbon treaty, which categorises animals as sentient beings, will be part of the repeal Bill?
A: Absolutely. Before we entered the European Union, we recognised in our own legislation that animals were sentient beings. I am an animal; we are all animals, and therefore I care—[Interruption.] I am predominantly herbivorous, I should add. It is an absolutely vital commitment that we have to ensure that all creation is maintained, enhanced and protected[/i]
Make of that what you want.
jambalaya - Member
Plenty of inhumane treatment of animals within the EU (which has a track record of ignoring the abuses not least in Pork production in Eastern Europe which is still able to be impirted into the UK). The “sentinal” designation makes no difference to hunting which is widely practiced in Europe (much more so than in UK) nor indeed bull fighting in Spain for example.I did check and Labour did indeed vote against, I had wondered whether this was one of the amendments Corbyn had ordered his MPs to abstain on.
POSTED 9 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST
ninfan - Member
I guess that it's the life sciences bods that are already drooling in anticipation?
UK legislation on research (and, indeed, other) animals has been far ahead of other European countries for decades, long before this was inserted in the Lisbon Treaty.POSTED 6 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST
Predictable lines of argument from the Nasty Party central drones.
So, any good reason why we should take a retrograde step, or are we just going to go down the "some other people are worse, therefore (leap of logic deliberate fail alert) we are ok" line?
It's symptomatic of how we are going to be 'competing' post-Brexit. Attracting inward investment by engaging in a race to the bottom with whoever else 'competes' in that area. Who benefits? Exploitative multinationals whose profits end up in the pockets of the 0.1%. ****ing great.
A: Absolutely. Before we entered the European Union, we recognised in our own legislation that animals were sentient beings. I am an animal; we are all animals, and therefore I care—[Interruption.] I am predominantly herbivorous, I should add. It is an absolutely vital commitment that we have to ensure that all creation is maintained, enhanced and protected
Presumably then, Gove is the first sentient being in the queue for the vivisectionists?
That is if he isn't flattering himself by implying he is sentient.
By the way.
Are trolls classed as sentient creatures?
and then continue eating your bacon and sausages and then move onNo offence but if you really GAS stop eating them - they dont really like that bit however "nice" you decide to slaughter them
..then you accuse me of trolling?
Absolutely. Before we entered the European Union, we recognised in our own legislation that animals were sentient beings.
If this was already in place then hopefully we just revert to that? I assume that it is still on the statute books and EU law just took precedence?
Absolutely.
Well he lied. We know that now.
Before we entered the European Union, we recognised in our own legislation that animals were sentient beings.
If you read the Farming UK article in my OP, you will see:
The RSPCA, which said the move is "disappointing", said this is not the case; the term sentience or sentient being doesn't appear once in that Act, and, the animal welfare charity said, doesn't cover all animals.
Back to (sick in mouth) Gove
It is an absolutely vital commitment that we have to ensure that all creation is maintained, enhanced and protected
Excuse me Mr Gove, but you are not to be trusted. And WTAF does that even mean? If a mythical bullshitting Borg had a 'Bible', that would for sure be an extract from that book. Stilted, ambiguous/ripe for endless interpretation, yet ultimately meaningless.
Ongoing shame on this government when it comes to the welfare and recognition of any living being who isn't looking back from the mirror.
Strange posts from the usual suspects.
How they think is a complete mystery to me.
They don't even agree with Gove, yet they are instantly in the position of arguing (I'm not sure what).
It's just a "how dare anyone criticize our tory overlords. I'm going to step in to defend them even though I know it's indefensible".
Are the A.L.F still going?
Blimey.. Richard Benyon voted No! That's actually surprising 😕
It's just a "how dare anyone criticize our tory overlords. I'm going to step in to defend them even though I know it's indefensible".
Which is why their credibility is non-existent.
First question why would you remove it? Don't think anyone has come up with a good reason yet.
Seriously? How do you lot think the world works? It's all about money - welfare regs have an effect on the profitability of farming.
Are the A.L.F still going?
There's far more respectable organisations involved in animal welfare from a non sensationalist science based perspective
https://action.ciwf.org.uk/ea-action/action?ea.client.id=119&ea.campaign.id=74771
bigjim that ciwf petition is AFAIK no longer useful since the vote a few days ago.
I posted the 'take action' update at top of this page, here again:
So, any good reason why we should take a retrograde step
What is it that you think is so important about having the word “sentient” in the legislation? There is no clearly accepted interpretation of this word, there is no qualification of what duties this imposes, as we can plainly see from the piteous state of animal welfare protection in other European countries
they decide that animals are not capable of feeling fear or pain?
Nonsense - in fact the lab animal welfare legislation has recognised and regulated anything likely to cause “pain, suffering distress or lasting harm” since 1986. Personally I think that this is FAR more specific and useful than some well meaning but undefined concept of “sentience”, and I would far prefer the successor UK legislation to utilise such specific wording than anything adopted by the EU.
Going to answer the question, Z11? No, thought not.
Shared & email sent.
Just a portent of what those evil fekers want to ditch.
God I hate the Tories.
And remember everyone told us not to worry as all laws would come over as is. This will be the start of much more.
Nonsense? Ok, I'll bite.
"Responding to the decision, British Veterinary Association Senior Vice President Gudrun Ravetz said:
'It is extremely concerning that a marginal majority of MPs have voted-down this seminal clause. [b]Enshrining animal sentience in UK law would have acknowledged that we consider animals as being capable of feelings such as pain and contentment and, so, deserving of consideration and respect.[/b] It is a founding principle of animal welfare science, and for the way that we should treat all animals.'
That's just the BVA (who I'm guessing are pretty well versed in animal welfare) saying that the MPs have decided not to consider animals as being capable of feelings such as pain and contentment.
So not nonsense then.
acknowledged that we consider animals as being capable of feelings such as pain and contentment
All animals?
As I’ve said, the EU article is ill defined, unclear, non-specific and largely disregarded by other EU countries. It was a sop to the animal rights movement from the start ~ classic virtue signalling. I’d rather have workable legislation that actually does something practical to protect animals (and I spent years working under the tightest animal welfare legislation and oversight structure in the world, and was able to actually visit compare it with that in other EU countries). I think the recent consultation on CCTV in slaughterhouses proves just how far ahead of the rest of the world we are in delivering this.
So why remove it, what part was un workable?
Why did the idiot say this
[img] [/img]
(again copied from earlier)
Q: Henry Smith MP (Crawley): Can my right hon. Friend confirm that article 13 of the Lisbon treaty, which categorises animals as sentient beings, will be part of the repeal Bill?A: Absolutely. Before we entered the European Union, we recognised in our own legislation that animals were sentient beings. I am an animal; we are all animals, and therefore I care—[Interruption.] I am predominantly herbivorous, I should add. It is an absolutely vital commitment that we have to ensure that all creation is maintained, enhanced and protected
What has changed his mind, what were the reasons for removing it - there must be some specific ones, who has lobbied and asked for it to be removed?
Also, what else are they going to try and drop?
jambalaya - Member
If this is such a big deal where were Labour ?
That's why we call them the Red Tories up here.
When you look at how this govt treats the weak and vulnerable humans, it's hard to imagine them really giving a stuff about the treatment of animals - other than their horses and dogs.
As successive govts strip away pensions, care and health facilities, euthanasia of the unproductive is just a matter of time.
If non-sentience is an excuse for inhumane treatment, maybe it's only a matter of time before the Govt declares the unemployed and past work age classes to be non-sentient, eg, is a patient with advanced dementia as sentient as a dog?
Orwell was a prophet.
Blimey.. Richard Benyon voted No! That's actually surprising
If you think that’s surprising you need to do some digging into his background (e.g [url= https://www.theguardian.com/environment/georgemonbiot/2012/apr/20/richard-benyons-inclosure-quarry ]this[/url])
But if you read that quote properly, it says we already recognised animals as sentient in all but name before the EU bill. That's why the EU is such a crock of shite. Meaningless expensive layers of smug red tape that the semi 3rd world parts of mainland Europe ignore anyway.
What's important is maintaining our status as world leaders in how we treat animals- what's not is slavishly smothering ourselves with pompous and meaningless EU drivel that we are now free to shake off.
what's not is slavishly smothering ourselves with pompous and meaningless EU drivel that we are now free to shake off.
So was gove deliberately telling lies or just didn't research his answer before saying explicitly it wouldn't change?
And if it doesn't matter why remove the word and waste parliamentary time when it is so precious?
Meaningless expensive layers of smug red tape
If that is the case then I do wonder why it was proposed by Lucas and backed by pretty much everyone other than the Tories?
classic virtue signalling
Who gives a F if it is??
It's about right & wrong.
Animals do feel pain & contemptment that I can 100% fing assure you.
This is plain bloody wrong.
End of story.
Taking your RW whining elsewhere!
I’d rather have workable legislation that actually does something practical to protect animals
ninfan, the protocol that underpins/ recognises animals as 'sentient' is not an 'either/or' scenario. To pretend otherwise is confusing.
Please explain how you see that dropping it will improved animal welfare inthe UK?
Please explain how you see that keepng it would hinder animal welfare in the UK?
classic virtue signalling
Who gives a F if it is??
I give a f if it is. Fortunately the cifw (along with countless other campaigners) not a 'vitrue signallers. They are campaigmers.
'Virtue signalling' is a strange term. It seems to be wieldd as an ad-hominem to mark someone as 'disingenuous' because they campaign for change.
Unlike Gove/Tories, who promise to be genuine, and then do exactly the opposite.
Talking of who - they only last-year tried to devolve animal welfare code guidance and hand it over to the meat-industry.
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/apr/07/ministers-abandon-plan-to-scrap-farm-animal-welfare-codes-chicken-farming ]but virtue signallers sulked and guilted them into making a U-turn[/url]
classic virtue signalling
I'm not sure what exactly is wrong [i]"virtue signalling"[/i] in this instance?
It exists in the Lisbon Treaty as part of the set of guiding [b]Principles[/b].
It literally exists so that the EU can [i]signal[/i] which [i]virtues[/i] it wishes to be guided by.
In exactly the same way that [url= http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-the-functioning-of-the-european-union-and-comments/part-1-principles/title-ii-provisions-having-general-application/150-article-8.html ]Article 8[/url] says they want to [i]"promote equality, between men and women"[/i] or [url= http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-the-functioning-of-the-european-union-and-comments/part-1-principles/title-ii-provisions-having-general-application/153-article-11.html ]Article 11[/url] says [i]"Environmental protection requirements must be integrated into the definition and implementation of the Union policies"[/i]
Here's the full [url= http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-the-functioning-of-the-european-union-and-comments/part-1-principles/title-ii-provisions-having-general-application/155-article-13.html ]Article 13[/url] text by the way:
In formulating and implementing the Union's agriculture, fisheries, transport, internal market, research and technological development and space policies, the Union and the Member States shall, since animals are sentient beings, pay full regard to the welfare requirements of animals, while respecting the legislative or administrative provisions and customs of the Member States relating in particular to religious rites, cultural traditions and regional heritage.
What's wrong with that? Which part of that doesn't suit post-Brexit UK?