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TUFAC are donating seven quid from each Northern Repulic T to Manchester foodbanks. You can help help a little bit and also get a smart new tshirt.
Shirt ordered.
Watching the news last night was as depressing as hearing ****'s "This is our Independence Day" speech the day after the referendum.
Short ordered here too. Wearing it in the Midlands I'm going to have to go with 'solidarity with our brothers in the north' as my line.
Just ordered one. Manchester foodbanks are going to be bloody busy over what promises to be a long bleak winter.
I've not felt this angry for a long time, watching this utterly corrupt gang of shysters dishing out billions to their mates while knowing full well what we've got coming over the winter months.
Just nipped into the post office this morning and the bloke who runs it was equally apoplectic and delivered an absolute tirade about Boris and chums while singing the praises of Andy Burnham. We went for an #inbeforethelockdown couple of pints at our local last night (which with full covid-secure measures in place, felt considerably safer than the local supermarket) before they're closed down on Friday, probably never to re-open, and you can imagine the sentiments being expressed in there
Boris truly has united everyone in this entire region in complete outrage at the actions of this government. And Andy is definitely just vocalising the feelings of his constituents
I've only just woken up to the fact that a huge chunk of the money heading to the regions is earmarked to do the Track/Trace/Isolate work! So... the private national TTI has cost £13billion... yet a third to a half of the money heading to Manchester and Sheffield as they go into Tier3 is to be spent by the local authorities doing the TTI work the expensive national scheme is failing to do...
I’ve not felt this angry for a long time, watching this utterly corrupt gang of shysters dishing out billions to their mates while knowing full well what we’ve got coming over the winter months.
In this regard Johnson and the rest of the cartel are just using covid as a bit of praccy before the big one next year.
Bit like Adolf and the Spanish Civil War.
Genuinely surprised there wasn't riots in Manchester last night.
Riot against who? Our arguments aren't with our local leaders. They've done us proud.
You'd have got an awful lot of volunteers for a pitchfork-wielding away day to Westminster though
yet a third to a half of the money heading to Manchester and Sheffield as they go into Tier3 is to be spent by the local authorities doing the TTI work the expensive national scheme is failing to do…
The final indignity. We've lobbed billions at our mates who have spectacularly failed to deliver, but if you could find the money to sort out their mess from the loose change we found for you down the back of the sofa, that would be grand
I see that the brave Tory MPs in Greater Manchester have written a letter to distance themselves from Burnham. Under orders or a change of (black) heart?
It goes without saying that our spineless toady, James Daly, continues his Boris brown-nosing and sold us all down the river and signed the letter that Cummings wrote for them.
I saw your nodding dog did the same
She'd get away with "sentina" I suspect.
Much easier to avoid saying scum, than to avoid calling someone a liar in the chamber.
Come to think of it... I've head the PM use "rabble" and "riff-raff" from the front bench recently.
Isn't Sentina one of Rees-Mogg's offspring ?
Well said Angela Rayner.
I thought that was a pretty reasoned response by Angela Rayner to the chinless wonder that is Clarkson.
I particularly enjoyed his indignation about being called scum. Poor little Chris.
I particularly enjoyed his indignation about being called scum.
He'll get over it like all the New Right will - a big stack of cash as a kickback from their mates will do it.
Under orders or a change of (black) heart?
Under orders. A yellow streak makes a nice contrast to the black heart.
It's a real shame Dennis Skinner is not there anymore. If he reacts like that to Rayner's comment imagine how he'd react to him
Well said Angela Rayner.
No, it was spectacularly stupid, because that's now the story. I speak as someone who voted for her.
No, it was spectacularly stupid
I disagree; it's nothing more than a minor distraction.
I speak as a card carrying member who voted for her and Starmer.
I disagree; it’s nothing more than a minor distraction.
To you, but it's gold to a largely unfavourable media. She showed exceptionally poor judgement.
She showed exceptionally poor judgement.
In your view.
It may make a couple of headlines on Thursday but that will be it.
The media are clearly becoming more unfavourable to johnson and his clown circus.
It may make a couple of headlines on Thursday but that will be it.
It's already featuring prominently in media outlets, so no, that's not it.
She shouldn't have lost control. It makes her the story and not Labour's message. I'm surprised that's not obvious to you.
Got to say..... Angela Rayner was simply "saying what she saw" a la Catchphrase.
Probably not well advised but if anything it will really help to show that the Tories have lost the North. The Tory MP's there are just renting their constituency for a few more years.
I suspect that the word "scum" being used in the House will seem utterly tame when we see the carnage in the streets of the UK when a few chickens come home to roost next year and beyond.
It’s already featuring prominently in media outlets, so no, that’s not it.
She shouldn’t have lost control. It makes her the story and not Labour’s message. I’m surprised that’s not obvious to you.
We disagree.
By Friday it will be old news; I'm surprised that's not obvious to you.
We disagree.
By Friday it will be old news; I’m surprised that’s not obvious to you.
Yep, we disagree, but the evidence shows that I'm right and you're wrong.
I'm not surprised that's not obvious to you.
It’s already featuring prominently in media outlets, so no, that’s not it.
Indeed commensurate coverage with anything Starmer has said on BBC website, the Guardian gives it a higher billing than anything Starmer has said. Still a few with some sense on here.
TUFAC are donating seven quid from each Northern Repulic T to Manchester foodbanks. You can help help a little bit and also get a smart new tshirt.
Mug version on its way for my desk at work.
It may make a couple of headlines on Thursday but that will be it.
As far as I can tell the 'Tory Scum' scandal didn't feature on any front pages today. Happily, the heartlessness of the vote did on a few.
As far as I can tell the ‘Tory Scum’ scandal didn’t feature on any front pages today. Happily, the heartlessness of the vote did on a few.
At the point the claim was made (that it would be limited to a couple of headlines today), it was the fourth item on the Guardian front page, and the only item about Labour on the BBC news front page. As I said, all it did was bury Labour's message, which is why it was stupid.
As far as I can tell the ‘Tory Scum’ scandal didn’t feature on any front pages today. Happily, the heartlessness of the vote did on a few.
You've beaten me to it; the focus has been on the vote, not Angela Rayner's accurate description of a tory.
As for you ransos...
but the evidence shows that I’m right and you’re wrong.
I’m not surprised that’s not obvious to you.
Oooh, you're trying - but failing, again - to be clever.
Yet again, you're on the wrong side of the argument; too much to expect a mea culpa from you.
You refer to 'evidence' - where and what is it?
If we were all as clever, informed and insightful as you...
@ransos - Do you expect any fair, impartial reporting from the BBC nowadays?
I wonder if the Deputy Speaker slapped Rayner down with "we won't tolerate that language here" whilst thinking "even if it's a fair comment" 🤔
@ransos you were quite adamant that it would feature prominently in Thursday's headlines. And it hasn't.
@ransos you were quite adamant that it would feature prominently in Thursday’s headlines. And it hasn’t.
No I wasn't. Read what I wrote.
@frankconway and @ransos It's obvious to everyone else your childish bikkering is a silly distraction. Any chance you can both grow up and pack it in please? Be a shame for this thread to get closed because you two can't control yourselves...
Oooh, you’re trying – but failing, again – to be clever.
Yet again, you’re on the wrong side of the argument; too much to expect a mea culpa from you.
You refer to ‘evidence’ – where and what is it?
If we were all as clever, informed and insightful as you…
I really don't need to be clever in order to refute your claim. Let me take it slowly for you. You said:
It may make a couple of headlines on Thursday but that will be it.
At the time you made that claim (Wednesday afternoon), the story was featuring prominently on the Guardian and BBC News websites, so it was trivial to establish that your claim was incorrect.
@ransos – Do you expect any fair, impartial reporting from the BBC nowadays?
Less than I used to, which is why it's important to not present them with a gift.
This is a really tedious diversion.
This is a really tedious diversion.
Yup.
Don't you think at some point the labour message itself should actually address the fact that some of them are scum? Angela Rayner first popped up on my radar through a very passionate speech that put her on my list of "people who actually care", for which Andy Burnham is showing his credentials right now too. Maybe they will just dig their heels in, but I'd like to think that the people who are voting Tory would think twice if there was a concerted effort from labour to demonstrate that they really care compared to the thieving, uncaring and lying cheats that are BoJo and his chums.
Don’t you think at some point the labour message itself should actually address the fact that some of them are scum?
Marcus Rashford is doing a far better job than the Labour front bench seems to manage.
If only the Labour front bench backed him, and, I dunno, used their only chance to have a debate and vote in parliament this week to get MPs to discuss and vote on exactly what he has raised. FFS.
I’d like to think that the people who are voting Tory would think twice if there was a concerted effort from labour to demonstrate that they really care
Labour tried that with a leader who demonstrated time and again that he cared and was on the side of normal people, and look where that got them. In the UK politicians (or anyone for that matter) who care are seen as hopeless, naive idealists who are not worthy of the responsibility of government or leadership. We continually vote for politicians who lie, obfuscate, make excuses, defend the indefensible (yesterday being a good example) and display a level of venality which would embarrass a banana republic civil servant. Until this changes we deserve everything we get.
Until this changes we deserve everything we get.
Agreed. See the usual comments on the Daily Hate and social media objecting to supporting children whose ****less parents have iPhones, Sky and flat screen TVs.
If only the Labour front bench backed him, and, I dunno, used their only chance to have a debate and vote in parliament this week to get MPs to discuss and vote on exactly what he has raised. FFS.
They could try leading instead of following. FFS indeed.
What do you want? I mean, really?! You keep complaining the Labour front bench aren't raising the very issues they are raising. Did you completely ignore yesterday's opposition day debate and vote, and the way it is all over the media today?
What do you want? I mean, really?! You keep complaining the Labour aren’t raising the very issues they are raising.
They're not raising it: they're supporting an issue raised by someone else, after it turned out to have popular support.
Yeah, they should get back in their bunker, and not work with people outside their little political bubble... imagine holding the government's feet to the coals, and forcing a debate and a vote where the public support their course of action, not the government's... what madness is this??!
Did you completely ignore yesterday’s opposition day debate and vote, and the way it is all over the media today?
I seem to remember when the previous leadership held similar opposition debates and votes (which were much more likely to succeed given the parliamentary maths at the time) they were dismissed by most on here as 6th form tokenism. Yet now it's visionary opposition? I used to continually ask the usual suspects here what they meant by 'credible/effective opposition' and no one could ever give me an answer. Yet now we're told by the same people that the very same things labour did previously are now a perfect demonstration of that? It's laughable.
Yeah, they should get back in their bunker, and not work with people outside their little political bubble… imagine holding the government’s feet to the coals, and forcing a debate and a vote where the public support their course of action, not the government’s… what madness is this??!
The point is that Labour should've been leading on this issue in the first place, rather than jumping on the nearest bandwagon. If you think that's madness, I truly despair.
Yet now it’s visionary opposition?
Not at all. Far from it. But it is one tool available, and they're using it... even if, oddly, some people think they should not. Although I can't work out what Ransos is complaining about... should the Labour Front bench ignore, or engage, as regards feeding kids in poverty this winter during the holidays?
Anyway... this has become just another thread for the usual suspects to attack Starmer... mostly just for not being the previous leader.... this has nothing to do with Burnham.
Although I can’t work out what Ransos is complaining about… should the Labour Front bench ignore, or engage, as regards feeding kids in poverty this winter during the holidays?
Gosh, it really wasn't hard to work out:
The point is that Labour should’ve been leading on this issue in the first place, rather than jumping on the nearest bandwagon. If you think that’s madness, I truly despair.
Is it actually the same people who spent all their time talking about what a disaster Corbyn would be who are now calling for Labour unity and for people to back their leader?
I guess 'we are very similar to the Tories but a bit less evil and incompetent' is probably the most effective Labour strategy we can hope for, because we live in a country full of horrible small-minded selfish people, but it sure isn't inspiring.
Is it actually the same people who spent all their time talking about what a disaster Corbyn would be who are now calling for Labour unity and for people to back their leader?
Apparently. All I want is for the leader to give us some idea of what he actually wants for the country. Blair and Thatcher, for all their many faults, were able to both define and articulate their vision, and sell it successfully.
this has nothing to do with Burnham.
Well to bring it back to Burnham (and Rayner as it was her honesty in the commons which started this sub-thread on opposition), what this demonstrates is that opposition doesn't really exist (much) in this country. Its only seen as acceptable if its within very tight and strict parameters which render it ineffective. We have the absurdity of opposition politicians being accused of 'playing politics' with issues which are inherently political. The implication of this is that politiics now is really only about administratiive effectiveness, and not about doing the right things to improve the lives of the public.
Burnham and Rayner have shown real opposition, even though it was ultimately ineffective. Opposition means challenging the accepted norms and rules of the established power and orthodoxy, and exposing the contradictions and lies within it. I think they've done that very well this week, and better than Starmer has recently with his constrained establishment-friendly technocratic methods.
opposition doesn’t really exist (much) in this country. Its only seen as acceptable if its within very tight and strict parameters which render it ineffective.
Yup. Putin would be proud.
I like Rayner... but calling an MP scum is just background noise... it's not "real opposition". She's doing a good job generally in her role... ignore the noise... and people calling for noise over substance. Some of you have a very real problem about Labour not looking like your party, or my party, but rather a party for all... even when it is talking about issues that we should all be able to get behind, like feeding kids and supporting people though a pandemic. You want placards and the shouting of "Tory Scum"... it's not enough... not nearly enough.
Winter job support scheme scrapped... and new (improved) support measures announced... Burnham has helped move things here I feel... his call for better support for effected businesses and workers chimed with a lot of people, across party lines, up here.
but calling an MP scum is just background noise
I'm not really talking about that, but that level of honesty is what's required I think. Why should tory MPs be able to hide behind a veil of politeness and faux-respect? They are scum, and they don't deserve any respect as they again demonstrated yesterday. What Rayner and Burnham provided was some passion and inspiration, which is as, or more important, than demonstrating adminstrative competence. Labour need to persuade people to join their cause, they can't do that if the cause is simply 'we want to be the government'.
Rayner made a big mistake, this sort of language plays into the Tories hands and alienates many voters.
It alienates many voters because they are also scum and they don't like it being pointed out.
Selfishness actually seems to be seen as a virtue by much of our voting public.
Back on topic...
https://twitter.com/AndyBurnhamGM/status/1319232492428316672?s=20
I wonder if this would have happened if it wasn't for Greater Manchester kicking up a stink? Especially the retrospective element?
If this was planned prior to that, they've kept it quiet. Surely they would have mentioned it?
Its very welcome, for sure, but does have a back-of-a-fag-packet air about it
Keir Starmer is mauling Boris Johnson every PMQs exposing his every failure, with pesky things like facts and experts - this is the way to do it
It alienates many voters because they are also scum and they don’t like it being pointed out.
Actually many just want their politicians to aim a bit higher than name calling. It solves nothing and sets a pathetic example. Watch the US presidential debate tonight to see where we are heading.
Something like 50% of people polled recently said they had no sympathy for migrants/asylum seekers crossing the channel, with a very strong correlation with Tory/Brexit voters. Scum is pretty apt I'm afraid.
It's just a lack of basic human compassion. I bet plenty of them would claim to be Christian too.
this is the way to do it
That was the old way to do it. No-one cares about PMQs any more. Most people's interaction with politics is seeing/sharing FB memes now, preferably about liberals getting DESTROYED
honestly Grum it sounds like you could do with a break from Social media.
I wonder if this would have happened if it wasn’t for Greater Manchester kicking up a stink? Especially the retrospective element?
I dont think so. They've realized how bad they look while they do their divide and conquer act with each region. Plus as pretty much every other "Tier 2" is going to end up in "Tier 3" it's just a question as when its politically suitable to make the change. So long as it's one region at once so they can't gang up, like Lancashire and Greater Manchester tried to do
honestly Grum it sounds like you could do with a break from Social media.
Yup. Though this is the only social media I use these days.
Actually many just want their politicians to aim a bit higher than name calling.
And that's the problem. If the only thing we expect from our politicians is politeness then we get what we deserve. Politeness means nothing when they act the way they do, and if it has to be called out in an honest and direct fashion then I have no problem with that. Would Boris continually lie in parliament if he wasn't protected by the ridiculous rule which prevents him being challenged on it?
This is the problem when going against people who are basically amoral, you are there saying 'hey let's have a constructive debate' while they gouge your eyes out.
Keir Starmer is mauling Boris Johnson every PMQs exposing his every failure, with pesky things like facts and experts – this is the way to do it
That was the old way to do it. No-one cares about PMQs any more. Most people’s interaction with politics is seeing/sharing FB memes now
Starmer’s approach in PMQ’s is the correct way for the audience that is going to watch PMQ’s, but I agree, that’s not going to be everyone.
This is the problem when going against people who are basically amoral, you are there saying ‘hey let’s have a constructive debate’ while they gouge your eyes out.
I'm going on record here proposing that eye gouging becomes an acceptable form of debate in the HoC. I'd like to see biting as well, quite frankly.
I wonder if this would have happened if it wasn’t for Greater Manchester kicking up a stink? Especially the retrospective element?
No chance. No mention at all while the other regions went into T3 of working on changes to these schemes. No suggestion that they might make changes during the Manchester negotiations. It isn't perfect but I think it's a good move and thus was worth fighting for. Would still expect Burnham to get the blame when T3 fails to control spread, mind. But I think it's a step closer to more restrictive measures being supported.
Starmer is mauling Boris at PMQs and those of us who bother watching it, or reading about it, know that. The general population don't follow it and with the current Covid crisis many people are not watching the news as it's all so grim.
Labour need another way to reach the voters. PMQs is interesting but it's not the conduit to success at the next General Election no matter how much of a battering blustering Boris gets. Scrutiny is important but if nobody is interested in the checks and balances then the new paradigm prevails. Misinformation, fake news, lying etc.
Politics has moved on recently but our politicians don't know how to modernise. Cummings and friends know this and are making hay whilst the sun shines.
Labour tried that with a leader who demonstrated time and again that he cared and was on the side of normal people, and look where that got them
Ahhh, it's refreshing to see someone pining for the days of Neil Kinnock...
You are completely deluded if you think waging class warfare and restoring to stayed stereotypes will deliver a Labour government. Many on the left are simply shouting into their own tiny echo chamber. They really are their own worse enemy.
You are completely deluded if you think
waging class warfare and restoring to stayed stereotypes'winning PMQs' will deliver a Labour government.
People have said that he's doing well at PMQs... no one has said that will deliver a Labour government. More importantly... Andy Burnham isn't involved in PMQs... he's not even an MP... a prize goes to anyone who can get this thread back on track. Binners has tried.. I've tried... let's all try...
Of course I don't think 'winning PMQs' will do that, finally having a competent opposition leader hopefully will.
Your divisive view of politics is so profoundly depressing and simplistic, but I guess it's nice to think of everything in terms of good vs evil.
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As for Andy Burnham I loudly applaud the stance he took and his willingness to front-up on behalf of the other elected politicians in the area.
His ability to clearly point out - in a very public way - the failings in central government's attitude was refreshing and certainly unwelcome from johnson's limited perspective.
It's disappointing that the united front which was presented throughout the stand-off has now been broken by some of the local tory MPs.
Doing the right thing for the right reasons should never be criticised.
I've never lived in the GM area and no longer work there but local residents could do a lot worse than having Burnham as their metro mayor