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You want communism here, then thats the way to go
And the stupidest comment of the month award goes to..
FFS can you not see the negative impact that shutting down thousands of businesses without the support they need will have? This may come as a surprise to you but not everyone has a nice nestegg to fall back on if they lose their jobs. The result will be people on the streets in sleeping bags and untold misery elsewhere. And your response is 'shit happens'. Nice!
Even the Pharaohs kept reserves of grain etc for times of famine. This mob would simply sell it to their mates.
Well, the Pharaohs only stored grain for famine when Joseph told them to, iirc. They didn't think of it themselves, despite it being blindingly obvious. So there's a definite parallel with this government
Could I lob an unwelcome handgrenade in here......
Thinking about this last night - quite impressed that AB and other local leaders are standing up to the national government for the people they serve. But.....are they being as vocal with the locals about getting it right and minimising risk and to do their part in reducing the risk of economic annihilation? Greater Manchester has all the ingredients for a covid hotpot (relatively dense population, socio economic makeup, employment types that can't be done at home etc) but it is still doing comparatively poorly. There are other pockets of the UK with the same ingredients who are not doing so badly. It has to be something to do with local behaviour at least in part.
Sign a truly strong and successful leader is the ability to stand up for the people they are leading whilst balancing that by having the bravery to tell the same people where they could be doing better.
FFS can you not see the negative impact that shutting down thousands of businesses without the support they need will have?
Yes I can, but it needs to managed carefully and not just assumed we all make a play for reliance on 100% government handouts. If you think they control you now, that'll be much worse for people.
And your response is ‘shit happens’. Nice!
No it wasn't, so kindly don't out words into my mouth.
@Kryton57 - London/SE is max 2 weeks behind this, let's see if your posturing continues then.
Communism?
Have you seen the financial package we're actually being offered?
£22 million for an area with a population of 2.8 million?
Difficult not to reach the same conclusion as one GM politician, really?
https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1318318990054379521?s=20
Do the maths. We're being offered a 'support package' to shut down large sections of our economy for an indefinite period, amounting to
*drumroll please*... £7.86 per person
Its an insult
Chris Grayling could spaff £22 million in a slight mid morning mishap. Its less than half the amount of tax that Robert Jenricks flagrant corruption let Richard Desmond avoid. They handed out contracts worth more than that to their mates for PPE that couldn't then be used or never actually appeared. How much has Serco been paid so far?
we all make a play for reliance on 100% government handouts
There are sectors where exactly that is required this winter. Not us "all", of course, but social distancing is currently still our main tool in dealing with this virus... and some businesses exist to enable social contact... and we will need these sectors to bounce back when we have new (working) tools in place... not smashed up and all the staff out hunting for non existent jobs over the winter.
London/SE is max 2 weeks behind this, let’s see if your posturing continues then
I'm not posturing ElShalimo. People have created an anger driven secular argument in here with Burnham blinkers on. I get that there is a lot of angry people and that there will be more, but I'm not going to trade insults on here, I'm out.
Oh and FWIW if you've been reading my inputs anywhere you'd know my personal circumstances have become very challenging this year, I'm not blind to the fact it could be much worse very shortly either so don't think I'm posting from some London based Ivory Tower and sneering at the Northerners.
TTFN
Good to see our useless Cornish Tory Bots getting involved...
https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/four-cornwall-mps-demand-manchester-4620734
You want communism here, then thats the way to go
Can someone explain how it would be communism?
Seems to be a few people feeling extra sensitive on the Covid threads today.
Try and be kind to each other.
There are sectors where exactly that is required this winter.
And without the support the tier 3 measures are doomed to fail anyway. The only conclusion I can come to is that its what Boris and co want. It's now become a grubby political game. They lockdown the regions without the support required, they fail and they get to blame the people and local leaders in those regions for delaying or not following the rules. The only result Boris wants out of this is that he's not seen to have blood on his hands. He wants local leaders and the public to take the blame for covid deaths, and wants Sunak to take the blame for the economic collapse. Then he can stand back and pretend he had nothing to do with it.
Burnham needs to call him out on this, and I expect he will. Make it clear Boris is responsible for both the deaths and the economic hardship, and that there is another way, but the govt won't do that because they're more interested in playing politics.
Seems to be a few people feeling extra sensitive on the Covid threads today.
Try and be kind to each other.
Agreed.
I'd suggest some people might benefit from looking at the teabagging thread in this very forum.
🙂
Do you think Burnham's luxurious eyebrows are due to teabagging?
The only conclusion I can come to is that its what Boris and co want. It’s now become a grubby political game.
The present government and grubby politicing? Say it ain't so.
If the government mandates you shutter a business then it follows that its incumbent on the government to provide support to those businesses that can no longer trade due to restrictions they introduced.
No magic money trees, no communism, just the sensible conclusion that you have to support businesses that you prevent from trading.
Johnson loves to roll out the war time rhetoric. Remind me what happens to spending and debt during a war?
Johnson loves to roll out the war time rhetoric. Remind me what happens to spending and debt during a war?
Can you submit that to Starmer as one of his PMQ questions?
You want communism here, then thats the way to go
Have I wandered into the comments section of a Daily Mail article by mistake?
What people seem to not be grasping is the support being asked for here will be a drop in the ocean compared to the long term costs of all these businesses going to the wall, mass unemployment, home repossessions, crime, homelessness etc etc
Where's the evidence that these "circuit breaker" or "fire break" or "tier 3 lockdown" things actually work, and that the benefits outweigh the costs?
There's a PHE paper kicking around that says that although there's some evidence for Vitamin D protecting from Covid19, and that the costs are tiny, the risks (toxicity at very high levels) mean we shouldn't be doing it.
Meanwhile, we just crack on with all these destructive lockdowns without any kind of evidence whatsoever.
Meanwhile, we just crack on with all these destructive lockdowns without any kind of evidence whatsoever.
Because hundreds of thousands of people may die if we don't have lockdowns? Have you not been paying attention for the last 6-7 months?
MoreCashThanDash
Full MemberMeanwhile, we just crack on with all these destructive lockdowns without any kind of evidence whatsoever.
Because hundreds of thousands of people may die if we don’t have lockdowns? Have you not been paying attention for the last 6-7 months?
Worldwide or in the UK?
Meanwhile, we just crack on with all these destructive lockdowns without any kind of evidence whatsoever.
Jesus it gets worse. The lockdowns are being incredibly badly managed yes but the only country in Europe that didn't really lock down the guy in charge has admitted it was a mistake. They had worse death rates and the economy fared no better than other Nordic countries, essentially. We might instead ask the question why all the Nordic countries did so much better than us.
Where’s the evidence that these “circuit breaker” or “fire break” or “tier 3 lockdown” things actually work, and that the benefits outweigh the costs?
Do you remember in the spring when we had a near-lockdown across the country and the virus was brought under control?
The idea of a "circuit break" is to slow the spread of the virus in exactly the same way, but with a defined end date and the possibility of another later.
A cost-benefit analysis is another matter. Contrary to popular belief, you can put a price on human life - but it's considered a bit crass to do so publicly.
We might instead ask the question why all the Nordic countries did so much better than us.
This is one of the reasons...'The number of households in Sweden in 2019 amounted to around 4.7 million. Among these, the most common type of household, around 40 percent, was the single-person household without children, which amounted to around 1.9 million'.
Also, scandi countries have few major population centres; no large scale commuting; far fewer social mixing venues.
What would be more pertinent is to ask " why the south asian countries have got so much lower infection and death rates?"
As an instant reaction without knowing the breakdown of people living in poverty or near poverty (and other facts like numbers on minimum wage jobs), I find it staggering that Greater Manchester was only offered ~50% of the financial package for almost twice the population size when Boris wanterd them to go to "tier 3," compared to the Liverpool and Lancashire.
I hope Burnham has secured something more like £80M+ this morning.
Shit! Looking over towards the city centre, it’s not looking good...
What would be more pertinent is to ask ” why the south asian countries have got so much lower infection and death rates?”
They dealt with SARS which never really got outside that area (much).
They know how to handle it and they have tried and tested plans and resources in place.
Unlike this country which managed to ignore the results of Operation Cygnus in 2016 and then disband the organisation that prepared for pandemic outbreaks.
5pm news conference - Boris and Van Tam
They'll be announcing how giving Manchester £12.37 is far too generous but Boris will offer everyone the chance to lick his shoes clean 'cos he's a man of the people.
What would be more pertinent is to ask ” why the south asian countries have got so much lower infection and death rates?”
Has Boris not taught you anything. We cannot compare ourselves to other nations... unless that comparison means we look better aka "best track and trace system in the world" /sarcasm
Bit of a rehtorical question crazylegs!
the other key point is they locked down earlier and harder
Why Van Tam - he's not struck me as being particularly malleable in the past?
They're at it again! They've learnt nothing. Little Matty Handjob has stood up in parliament and said that the government are presently negotiating with the Mayors and MPs of Middlesborough and Teeside, as well as others
Except they've just been on Five Live saying they haven't had any discussions with government at all. An MP from Middlesborough says he is 'wholly dispirited' as he is fully expecting to be in the same situation as Manchester very soon. Having dictats issued by Dom from the Westminster bunker
They’re at it again! They’ve learnt nothing. Little Matty Handjob has stood up in parliament and said that the government are presently negotiating with the Mayors and MPs of Middlesborough and Teeside, as well as others....
This whole situation amazes me I can't believe its still going on. The mind boggles. Its business 101 make sure everyone agrees before talking to the wider teams. (aka the public) The situation we are in now where Boris is putting measures in place local gov' haven't seen that will impact them on such a HUGE scale is pure negligence. Its really simple nothing zoom meetings before all this was announced couldn't solve... but then that suggest the Toris actually care what other people think, its do as I say not as I do.
Realistically the Tories should have stayed firm and said no you get what you given deal with it. Now they have put themselves in a situation where every local gov' is going to want to negotiate their own tier 3 package getting more than the last leading to a situation thats even more confusing that it was originally. I can't believe people voted for this shit. Bun the tories! /rant over!
a situation where every local gov’ is going to want to negotiate their own tier 3 package
“Tier3” was designed to be a bespoke arrangement for each area going into it… the confusion and haggling is designed into it. The whole approach is quite frankly, a mess… when what is needed is clarity… easily understood and effective social distancing rules, and support for those hit by those rules.
We might instead ask the question why all the Nordic countries did so much better than us.
The factors you list are correct. But Sweden's death rate per thousand shows that even with those factors, without a lockdown you are still screwed.
Is Van Tam there to give the medical "go into Tier 3 or have more deaths" argument while Boris plays the good guy and ups the offer by 5p?
The situation we are in now where Boris is putting measures in place local gov’ haven’t seen that will impact them on such a HUGE scale is pure negligence.
Its even worse than that, not only are they not communicating, and issuing dictats, they are refusing to share the data, statistics or methodology by which they've arrived at these decisions
So they're asking huge areas to shut down their economies without showing them the justification, then when asked, saying 'don't you worry your pretty little head about that. We know whats best for you'
And they wonder why they're getting pushback?
And, importantly, still no plan for getting areas out of Tier3, so once you go in, it could be for the whole winter… especially as the scientific advisors have said that Tier3 measures are not expected to be enough to stop case/admissions/deaths increasing… just slow the rate of increase. How do you get back to Teir2 ?
So no deal apparently, and our glorious leader is going to tell us whats going to happen later on tv... im amazed.
Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but sometime soon...
So no deal apparently, and our glorious leader is going to tell us whats going to happen later on tv… im amazed.
Just practicing for Brexit with the no deal
At this point I'd be up for Burnham telling everyone to ignore the tier 3 and stay open and instruct the police not to act on it. Then he'd need to come up with his own plan to combat the virus spread. With people on his side it would have more chance of success than an imposed lockdown which no one agrees with.
https://twitter.com/LucyMPowell/status/1318543447297609730?s=20
When are the helicopter gunships arriving?
Massive Godzilla style MC Tunes vs the gunships. When all this is over, that's the film I'm making.
I was just searching for that Binners. Can we push for independence?
Is that image your work Binners?
Can't take any credit for that, I'm afraid. It's a Man Yoo Supporters Group.
I expect we're about to be seeing a lot more of it though
The factors you list are correct. But Sweden’s death rate per thousand shows that even with those factors, without a lockdown you are still screwed.
OK, I'll bite. This obsession with "seeee!! Sweden didn't follow our (insane) approach, and they still had problems!!! SEEEE!!" is weirdly widespread across channels, and it's just ridiculous. It's like shouting "seee!! Little Timmy didn't eat his own poo like I have, and he still got ill, so who's the idiot, huh?!".
So, looking at cases per 100k population to yesterday. Top of the list in Europe, Montenegro, with 2500. Spain has 1995 per 100k, Belgium 1939... France 1339, Netherlands 1321. UK, 1084, Ireland 1019 per 100k.
Sweden, 1009 per 100k, then Portugal at 972 per 100k. Denmark has 610 per 100k, Germany 441 per 100k (although IIRC reporting there was a bit iffy for a while), Greece 237 per 100k.
Deaths per 100k: Belgium 91, Spain 72, UK 65, Italy 61. Sweden 58, France 50, Ireland 38. Denmark 12.
First thing to note, of course, is that as discussed elsewhere, cases per 100k is NOT the total impact of COVID - it doesn't take into account non-COVID deaths (to date or in the future) arising from COVID initiatives, economic deprivation, effects on poverty rate etc.
Second thing is that wow, there's a hell of a range of numbers there. Countries with lockdown have done better, other countries with lockdown have done (far!) worse.
Third, Sweden hasn't, on these incredibly limited metrics, done much better than the UK - but it has, on those same metrics, done better.
So, the conclusion here is that... well, we can't actually draw conclusions because WE'RE STILL IN THE MIDDLE OF IT. But, it's fair to say that Sweden certainly isn't outside the range of COVID impact which, given just how different its response has been, is very interesting.
So, can we now stop yelling, with faeces around our mouth, "look at little Timmy! Timmy didn't eat his own poo, and he's not turned into Superman! Seee! Eating your own poo is definitely the way forward!!" and perhaps be a bit more mature about it?
I did read an interesting take on the Swedish issue that points out that the healthy life years remaining at age 65 is significantly lower in the UK than it is in Sweden (about half as much, in fact).
This goes some way towards explaining why Sweden is doing better - it's not anything they're doing specifically, but more that over-65s in the UK tend to be fat, lazy diabetics who eat and drink too much while using cars at every opportunity. << said cars affect air quality, making them even more likely to pop their clogs from flu / CV19.
I think you're better off comparing Sweden to its neighbours who have similar demographics - Norway and Finland. I'm pretty sure they're doing much better than Sweden.
https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3765
I read somewhere that their better social security means less pressure to work when ill/infected also. Plus just generally better social cohesion, higher standards of healthcare etc. I think you can only really compare it to other similar Nordic countries though, as pointed out.
So, can we now stop yelling, with faeces around our mouth, “look at little Timmy! Timmy didn’t eat his own poo, and he’s not turned into Superman! Seee! Eating your own poo is definitely the way forward!!” and perhaps be a bit more mature about it?
Your post is by far the most hysterical OTT thing I've read about Covid and Sweden.
Good speech by Andy. Lets see what the flytipped sofa has to say and whether the 'facts' as described by them both has the remotest thing in common.
Theres no question about who is going to be believed. It will hardly come as a surprise.
Third, Sweden hasn’t, on these incredibly limited metrics, done much better than the UK – but it has, on those same metrics, done better.
Most countries have done better then the UK, on those metrics. And in terms of the economic impact as well.
I read somewhere that their better social security means less pressure to work when ill/infected also.
Yup, full pay when isolating because of symptoms or TTI. Compare that to here... where people can choose between our statutory sick pay (naff all) or to carry on going to work. Not hard to see why so many people in the UK carry on going to work, or are avoiding TTI and generally trying to stay under the radar, rather than cooperate.
Good speech by Andy.
Missed it.
Switched on... the others are speaking... let's keep remembering there is enormous consensus on this in the region... unprecedented it could be said... this is not about one man.
Well that's a few north west Tory MPs retraining in cyber come the next election.
little matty handjob (thank you to whoever on this thread introduced me to that) just announced sum total of support the GM will receive is £22m an have withdrawn the £60m offered earlier.
what a bunch of utterly despicable c-nuts. playing with peoples lives to score political points and wave a big stick ahead of all other regional negotiations.
tories are very quickly turning covid into the miners strike for the millenials
GM will receive is £22m an have withdrawn the £60m offered earlier
Thats despicable.
They could have left that and said " thats all you're getting, like it or lump it" but to take it away.... I don't even have the words.
Well… it’s us in Yorkshire next.
Its interesting to see the difference in speeches from both sides
Andy's was well thought out and well delivered
Boris's is coming across as rushed, blustered and on the back foot
Then Notts....
Just wow.
Disgraceful, hopefully this will haunt them.
https://twitter.com/TomSwarbrick1/status/1318584103797751822?s=09
and instruct the police not to act on it.
I'm not sure that will happen, sadly.
What led us to this inept, corrupt, self-serving, lying, etc, etc bunch of shysters...?
How long until we do get civil unrest. Man oh man.
How long until we do get civil unrest. Man oh man.
Two weeks into January as a No Deal Brexit bites properly, Covid Christmas is over with no end in sight and the country and about 85% of the people in it are bankrupt.
Perhaps Andy can lead the revolt.
What led us to this inept, corrupt, self-serving, lying, etc, etc bunch of shysters…?
Democracy. Or the laughable sham of democracy that we now endure.
Well, that's the Tories losing all their seats in the north west isn't it?! When this response happens to other regions they are effectively signing their own death warrant!
At every single opportunity they have had in this term to do the right thing and do themselves some good PR they have failed in spectacular style! How on earth have they become (and allowed to become) so out of touch with literally evey aspect of the nation that they are governing?
Your post is by far the most hysterical OTT thing I’ve read about Covid and Sweden.
:D. Eh, it's a close-run thing - you should check out some of the hatchet jobs out there on how Sweden is deliberately making the wrong choice because blah blah.
Can we agree at least that right now, we don't actually know what the right choice is, as illustrated by our own government's flapping around from lockdown to not and back again? And that it's probably not a stretch to think that we won't actually be able to assess the relative approaches until about 3-5 years from now, when the full effects of COVID and its associated mental health/ economic/ welfare impact will start to be clearer?
The largest factor in the increase in covid cases in northern cities is due to students returning.
A friends son has just started Uni in Leeds, he's in a hall of residence unit with 7 others, all of whom have covid. Shared Kitchen, shared bathroom and a personal room the size of a cupboard. All for the bargain price of £600 pcm.
That's twice what I pay for a 2 bedroom flat on the edge of central Manchester in a zone with similar halls of residence. The area has been teeming with partying, non social distancing students for the past month.
It's not rocket science is it. Seems to me that the main priority has been to protect the rental income from properties that are essentially covid Petri dishes.
And remember, as Trump would call it, Manchester is a 'Democrat' run city, no chance of the red wall crumbling here so why not play politics with Covid?
Er… have you not been listening to all the Conservative MPs from the area over the last week? They are not happy with the PM… to put it mildly.
I can barely find the words to describe how angry I am! And I’m pretty sure that’s going to the overriding emotion across greater Manchester tonight
The utter *s!!!
They just *ed us big time as an example to everyone else!!
This really is going to be a re-run of the 89’s. Boris should remember that, unlike Thatcher he won’t have the police as a militia on his side.
Businesses are going to go down like dominoes over winter. We have just been well and truly shafted
I’m ****ing apoplectic!
To think that Government were entirely happy to chuck £14m at a non-existent ferry company but are prepared to sell Greater Manchester down the river for £5m. It’s all about making an example of a labour stalwart and make other northern leaders think twice about doing anything other than rolling over and have their bellies tickled.
Guys, could you older clarify for me please?
Gov offered £60m million but as that was not accepted outs now made an effectively punitive offer of £20m?
Kelvin,
I've been listening to them Boris hasn't. As tuboflard says, this is a case of making an example of a Labour stalwart, that's how this plays out nationally.
You've really got to stop thinking of this mob as the Tory party, they are a coalition of the Brexit party, UKIP, the BNP and some remnants of the Conservative party.
Perhaps we should start refering to them as the 'Two Nation' Tory Party.
Just for you Binners.
"And we say,,, You do it this way..."
Guys, could you older clarify for me please?
Gov offered £60m million but as that was not accepted outs now made an effectively punitive offer of £20m?
that seems to be a decent summary
Gov offered £60m million but as that was not accepted outs now made an effectively punitive offer of £20m?
According to BBC news the 20M is a flat rate per capita to fund contact tracing etc but the 60M is still on offer, but obviously that offer needs to be accepted
Just when you think they can't sink any lower...
And these are the geniuses we have in charge of Brexit negotiations.
Where does it say the £60m offer is still on the table? This is the latest update I can see on the BBC website:
The PM’s confirmation that the Greater Manchester area is to go into a tier-three shutdown of much of the hospitality sector at the end of Thursday will be damaging to the local economy but the virus is still spreading rapidly.
The surprising thing here was that £60m of support to businesses placed on the table in negotiations with Manchester at midday appears to have been completely withdrawn.
Where does it say the £60m offer is still on the table?
Was on the 6pm telly news not the website
I'm in a blue bit at the bottom edge of the map above, right at the bottom - and the local Con MP has absolutely laid into the MP. We're the lowest infection rate also. Ballcocks that £60m vanished very fast - watched it live.
I'm getting my bio-hazard top to cycle into Cheshire (less a few miles from my house).