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ernie_lynch - Member
Actually that didn't happen, ie, Labour supporters didn't switch to the LibDems last May. That's why the LibDem vote in 2010 was basically the same as the LibDem vote on 2005.
You miss the point.
My argument is not that a load of people who usually vote Labour made a sudden decision to vote Lib Dem, but that a lot of people who ALWAYS vote Lib Dem would actually rather vote Labour, but happen to live in constituencies where Labour are dead in the water. They vote Lib Dem solely to deny the Tories a seat and care little for the Lib Dems in any other respect.
If those people decide to storm off in a huff, so much the better.
Not my graphs my pretties, all down to your mates in the Bolshevik Broadcasting Corporation. 😀
While I'm posting anyway Fred - got any peer reviewed evidence to back up your assertions on the importance of school milk?
http://jech.bmj.com/content/34/1/31.abstract
A randomised controlled study was carried out of the effect on growth of the provision of free milk supplements to schoolchildren aged 7 and 8. In selecting children for this study, the aim was to identify those whose socioeconomic circumstances might place them at a disadvantage for growth. Five hundred and eighty-one-children were selected from schools where a high proportion of the pupils received free school meals, and from families with four or more children. The subjects were randomly allocated to receive a third of a pint (190 ml) of free milk daily for six school terms or to a control group. The mean difference in height gain at the end of twenty-one-and-a-half months was 3% or 2.93 mm (P less than 0.05) in favour of the children provided with free milk. The mean difference in weight gain was 130 g (P greater than 0.05) in their favour. [b]The height and weight gain associated with the provision of free mild was very small in the study population, and it is therefore likely that the benefit to growth of providing free milk for the whole unselected population of schoolchildren of these ages would be even smaller.[/b]
😆
I do like a nice graph. I used to enjoy doing them in school. Some are very pretty.
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Let's see yer favourite graphs! 🙂
So Fred, plenty of graphs but no evidence to back up your claims on milk?
Reckon you could do us a graph on the increased height and weight of children given free school milk?
sort of like this I guess:
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X______________________________
Y
Z-11; your quote seems to back me up anyway, ta! 😀
[url= http://www.milk.co.uk/page.aspx?intPageID=73 ]Health Benefits of Milk[/url]
Can't find any studies online, 'cos there don't seem to have been many studies done to evaluate the benefits, and quite frankly I can't be bothered arguing with you, as it's simply a waste of energy. I'm not going to change your opinion, as you are firmly entrenched in your right-wingness, and you seem to be quite happy in it. I feel any continuance of such an argument is therefore pointless. Sorry.
Do you have any proof that free school milk has no benefit at all? Bit of homework for you. 😉
Ah, a milk industry lobby site, good peer reviewed source that one Fred, very scientific 8)
So do you have any evidence to prove their claims wrong? 8)
(This is not 'arguing', this is just to show you that we could go on all night throwing figures and cries of 'prove it' all night long. You know as well as I do that milk is healthy and nutritious, and is good for young children. You're just responding to Criticism of your favourite Auntie, so I can't really be bothered)
What's yer favourite type of graph?
bravohotel9er - Member.......a lot of people who ALWAYS vote Lib Dem......
If those people decide to storm off in a huff, so much the better.
Ah, right, people who traditionally vote LibDem you mean.
Do you think the LibDem leadership shares your enthusiasm that these people will no longer be voting LibDem ? .....whether or not their natural home should be Labour.
The end result of this, is of course, very likely to be a massive drop in LibDem electoral support. When LibDem support is at 12-15% there is a much less chance of a hung parliament. Which greatly increases the possibility of Labour winning an outright majority next election.
And the LibDems having the door shut on their faces.
I see a flaw in your plan.
do you have any evidence to prove their claims wrong?
Sorry Fred, but your claim was [b]not[/b] "Do you have any proof that free school milk has no benefit at all"
it was, quite specifically:
So, cut something which had been proven to have a [b]clear and significant benefit[/b] to children's health
Milk is proven to be of [b]tremendous nutritional benefit[/b] in the physical development of the young.
So, its not for me to back up - once you've proven [u]your own[/u] initial statements/claims true, I'll happily deal with those of the dairy industry lobby site 😉
You know as well as I do that milk is healthy and nutritious, and is good for young children.
Prove it ! 😆 Although I'm sure you'd prefer to ignore it, gloss over it, change the subject and deny flatly that somebody has called you on the factual integrity of your claims... Typical leftie really 😉
I'm sure the Lib leadership are horrified at the thought of it, but they will be more aware than anyone that a significant minority of their support consists of negative votes.
Some of those people will vote Labour from now on (which will matter little in traditional Lib/Tory marginals) or just won't bother voting at all, I see little for Labour to get excited about.
I envisage the Libs splitting into two parties at some point, defections to Labour and possibly the Tories as this parliamentary term grinds on.
Z-11, you're being silly now. I'm not going to argue with you any longer, because as I've said, it's pointless. You're not interested in intelligent debate; you just want to 'win'. So, ok, you've won. Well done. Give yourself a Gold Star.
[url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/whats-it-all-about-all-this-arguing-on-here-serious-question ]I was hoping you'd share some of your wisdom and insight on my arguing thread.[/url] Have a read; you might find it interesting...
Some of those people will vote Labour from now on (which will matter little in traditional Lib/Tory marginals)
Well it might not matter to you, but it will make it much more likely that the Tories will win in traditional Lib/Tory marginals.
So back to the two-party system then.
Z-11, you're being silly now. I'm not going to argue with you any longer, because as I've said, it's pointless. You're not interested in intelligent debate; you just want to 'win'. So, ok, you've won. Well done. Give yourself a Gold Star.
Ah, so, pretty much the reaction I expected then overall. You see, if you chose instead not to make unasserted, unsupportable, blanket & false claims in support of your failed political ideology then all this hassle could be avoided 🙂
I was hoping you'd share some of your wisdom and insight on my arguing thread. Have a read; you might find it interesting...
Actually Fred, I thought it better to leave you to enjoy your passive-aggressive attention whore status, since there was actually very little of substance said on the thread - However if you really want my personal opinion, I'd refer you to a quote from one of my hero's - "Sometimes people mistake the way I talk for what I am thinking" 😉
Fred - don't give him the attention he craves. 'tis the best answer for him
Ah, TJ, nice to see you
"Hello Pot, This is Kettle - colour check over"
TJ; it's just got embarrassing really. Poor sod. I just can't be bothered feeding his ego any longer. I think he needs to go out and shoot something perhaps; let off a bit of steam. Best thing is not to respond to him any longer, I reckon. Let him ramble on , think he's won. It's best all round really.
Worst thing is; he knows the point yer making, and is intelligent enough to appreciate the sense in what yer saying, but he just has to have his say, has to feed his compulsion to be contrary. Like the naughty kid at school, playing up just to get attention.
Probbly din't have any free milk at school, the poor lamb. 🙁
Probbly din't have any free milk at school, the poor lamb.
I had free school milk. That's why I'm such an ardent support of Mrs T 😉
You sure it weren't lead you had, not fluoride? 😯
You sure it weren't lead you had, not fluoride?
Could be. Could explain a lot. That and the mercury night caps we had every night.
EDIT: but I don't think you ever had any of that milk.
Wunundred! 🙂
i voted lib-dem, and will do so again.
They promised to fight tuition fees, and i suspect they probably did.
compromise; it's part of being a grown-up.
The lib-dems don't want to raise tuition fees, but they do want a bit of electoral reform.
(i'm not [i]totally[/i] convinced by AV, but it's bad news for the BNP)
and one more time; the average graduate will be about £40,000 better off by retirement with the new system of fees and loans
and one more time; the average graduate will be about £40,000 better off by retirement with the new system of fees and loans
40k better off than what though.
and one more time; the average graduate will be about £40,000 better off by retirement with the new system of fees and loans
I wouldn't get out of bed for £40,000 🙂
EDIT: which is to say that over an entire lifetime, that's not much. About £1k per year.
better off than they would be under the current system.
average salary = £26,000, earning this much is not enough to clear the debt under the current system (as i am reminded every year when my student loan statement comes through)
someone earning £26k will currently pay £1100 per year.
someone earning £26k will pay £500 per year under the new system.
that's £600 / year better, this money paid into an isa will return about £40k after 30 years or so.
the new system that everyone seems upset about will be much better for most people than the current system which no-one seems to care about.
@Zulu-Eleven interesting argument re milk, I note you've quoted one study. Have you reviewed many others? There are plenty on the negative effects of milk.
I wouldn't myself base an opinion on just one study that supports my own belief, dangerous heuristics.
Hows that then? If my current loans would never cost me £40k including interest then how could any system allow people to be £40k better off? Are they bringing back grants - did I miss that bit?
They promised to fight tuition fees, and i suspect they probably did.
No, they did much more than promise to fight tuition fees.
[i]"[b][u]I pledge to vote against any increase in fees in the next parliament[/u][/b] and to pressure the government to introduce a fairer alternative"[/i]
The pledge was made to a huge public fanfare :
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The pledge could not have been more unambiguous, ie "I pledge to vote against any increase in fees in the next parliament" doesn't exactly leave people wondering "I wonder what he means by that ?"
The LibDems will have gained votes on the basis of that pledge..... that after all, is the reason they made it.
And [u]nothing[/u] which could not have been anticipated in April 2010 has happened since then.........everyone knew back then that a hung parliament was extremely likely. But that didn't stop the LibDems making the pledge - obviously they wanted everyone to be absolutely crystal clear where they stood in relation to tuition fees.
BTW, a [i]pledge[/i] is a "solemn binding promise"........I get the impression some people might not be completely aware of that.
Damo2576 - happy to oblige
http://jech.bmj.com/content/43/1/66.abstract
http://jech.bmj.com/content/33/3/171.abstract
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=837636
http://adc.bmj.com/content/56/11/831.abstract
Now, is there evidence the other way - of course there is, thats the nature of science - theres also arguments over allergies and obesity. There appears to be good evidence that general consumption of dairy products, as part of a balanced diet, is a positive thing, but a lot less evidence on the efficacy of "free school milk" programmes in developed western societies (as opposed to, for example, China)
However when people choose to pronounce blanket statements to support any p[olitical ideology that overlooks the complexity of a situation, with no evidence that the proponent of the statement has actually looked beyond the headline, I think its fair to look at whether they can "show their working" or are simply repeating rhetoric, parrot fashion.
Good God; is he [i]still[/i] banging on about milk?? 😯
Someone tell him he's right, ffs, or we'll never see the end of it. 🙄
Good God; is he still banging on about milk??
If you'd ever been forced to drink that putrid gloop you'd know why!
Nick Clegg has indeed made himself look foolish.
in return, we get a new university loan/fees system which reduces the cost for most people (especially low earners), and the chance to vote the BNP out of existence.
nick clegg has sacrificed his own reputation for at least 2 good causes.
and that is why i will vote for him next time.
nick clegg has sacrificed his own reputation for at least 2 good causes.
He simply does not have the right to do that.
He made a [i]solemn binding promise[/i] to vote against any increase in fees. He was elected on that understanding.
Even if afterwards, he came to the conclusion that he was wrong to make the pledge, he had no right to go back on his word - well not morally anyway.
If his new policy is so much better than his previous policy, then he should have argued it 6 months ago.
What Nick Clegg has done is bad for democracy, plus it yet further undermines people's trust in politicians. Hardly what British politics needs right now. He is quite frankly a disgrace.
He is a disgrace, it's true.
Dirty lying self-serving scum.
and that is why i will vote for him next time
Oh whell, at least now you [i]know[/i] he's a dirty lying self-serving shyster, I spose.
Oh, and here's another "pledge" Nick Clegg has contemptuously tossed to one side.
From the Liberal Democrats [u]own[/u] website :
[i][b]"Launching the Liberal Democrat's General Election policing plans, Mr Clegg [u]pledged[/u] to put 3,000 more bobbies on the beat nationally over the course of a Parliament."[/b][/i]
[url= http://www.libdems.org.uk/news_detail.aspx?title=Liberal_Democrats_will_put_more_police_on_the_streets_in_Sheffield_Hallam&pPK=67fdafe7-943b-4474-be1b-fc2dbbda1d52 ]Nick Clegg said today the Liberal Democrats would put more police officers on city streets after years of falling numbers.[/url]
Yet today it was announced :
[b][i]"a survey revealed 39 out of 43 forces in England and Wales have frozen recruitment – with officer numbers expected to slump by 6,000 a year as a result".[/i][/b]
[url= http://www.****/news/article-1331806/More-police-doesnt-mean-crime-claims-Police-Minister-Nick-Herbert.html ]Minister claims more police on the streets does NOT mean less crime[/url]
So how will the LibDems be voting in parliament ?
but we haven't got a lib-dem government - they didn't win.
despite this, there are lib-dems in the cabinet, and lib-dem policies being brought in.
maybe you're lucky, and used to having everything exactly as you want it all the time.
real life isn't like that.
Lib-dems will be asked to vote in accordance with coalition agreements - i doubt all of them will...
it's probably easier to stop using the word 'lib-dem' - maybe they're now conservatives - but taxy spendy conservatives who want a bit of electoral reform and like a bit of europe.
i don't like everything that this government is doing, but some of the nice bits seem to lib-dem bits. i'd rather have them as part of the government than not.
I guess that the question that I'm really asking is would we have had more acceptable reforms or however you want to phrase it if we had a minority government instead of a coalition? I think we wouldn't have half of this nonsense going through if that was the case.
yes a minority govt would have much more watered down tory policies than at present mainly becuase the lib dems would be able to stay true to their pledges /principles/electoral platform rather than do the opposite in the name of the agreement.
ahwiles, I would very interested if you could answer me two questions. And they are serious questions btw, which I am [i]genuinely[/i] interested in knowing how a LibDem supporter of the coalition government would answer.......I very rarely hear the opinions of LibDem supporters of the coalition government. Presumably because they are very thin on the ground - they don't even seem to write to the letters page of the Guardian.
The first question is, if next general election someone said you [i]"I'm thinking of voting LibDem but first of all I would like to know what their policies are"[/i] what would you advise them to do - to find out what LibDem policies were and how their LibDem MP would vote in parliament ?
The second question is, since like other LibDem supporters of the coalition government you suggest that [i][b]huge[/b][/i] compromises have had to be made as a result of forming a coalition government, could you list me the [i][b]huge[/b][/i] compromises the Tories have made ?
And I don't mean policies which the Tories would have [i]preferred[/i] not to have but have now reluctantly accepted. I'm talking about policies which the Tories were diametrically opposed to before the election and had pledged to voters they would oppose in parliament.
Thanks.
TJ - I think entering the coalition will prove to be a huge mistake for the lib dems and will finish them as a political force.
I'm not sure it will prove to be a mistake.
1. There are people in the country who would like to vote Lib Dem but have often thought it pointless because they weren't likely to have much influence on policy. They've proven that they can (although obviously as smaller partners less than you might like). Those people, particularly those who aren't hard line left of centre, might actually like what they've seen.
2. They've managed to get a vote on AV. If it is successful, AV will increase the power of the lib dems. Even if they loose 1/3rd of their vote, they'd probably still be no less influential than they were in the last parliament.
3. Plenty of people in Scotland, and I suspect elsewhere, have an absolute in grained repulsion to voting tory. I've had conversations with plenty of people who generally support tory policy/ideology but won't vote tory, the lib dems might provide them with a credible alternative.
My prediction, when you put these 3 effects together, is that the liberals will actually have a greater share of the parliament at the next election. Possibly only marginally so, but certainly not destroyed. Of course weak opposition may make this even more likely.