[Closed] And I always thought I was a crap driver....

"BMW/Merc/MX5 RWD cars should just be banned when it snows. It was ridiculous. I helped push two mercs up a hill on the A3 ffs."

Why? I am in Germany at the moment on a business trip, plenty of Mercs, BMWs, Porsches etc but no silliness on the roads.

They all have to fit snow tyres mind.

i walked, didn't get stuck once and i had a pint in the local too, walking and drinking tut tut!

some right idiots driving about though as you say, no clues at all some of them

Nothing beats smugness.

Banned or snow tyres. Either is good.

Mandatory winter tyres is the way ahead. There would be no disruption whatsoever. It needs bringing in now.

I did make the error of mocking the bmw drivers when pushing a merc up the hill with a fellow driver - she then said she was having no problems in her bmw 'thank you very much' 😀

surely RWD should be better up hills - unless you have massive fat tyres (and maybe an auto gearbox - and shitty "traction control" that just brakes both sides if they even hint at loss of traction)

trouble with winter tyres is that they are rubbish/last a short time in normal conditions, which here in the midlands is 98% of the time, not worth the layout for the maybe 5 days a year where it snows

having said that there's about 6" of the stuff outside and it's snowing hard atm

and a rubbish driver with winter tyres is still a rubbish driver, maybe mandatory winter driving courses might be better

RWD: no engine weight over the drive wheels - it's a problem

I have been using a pair of autosocks on my FWD Honda. They are very good on snow/slush/ice. I keep forgetting I have them on and end up sliding the back out and having to countersteer to prevent a spin. Great fun.

RWD: no engine weight over the drive wheels - it's a problem

Sorry Rocketdog, you're talking rubbish. My winter tyres are absolutely fine from Oct-Apr and have no wear issues. They'll also allow my Berlingo to cope with up to 10-12" of fresh snow. No excess noise, no extra fuel consumption, just grip and control.

so why bother with normal tyres then if winters are good in all conditions?

12" of snow in a Berlingo ?
What's the ground clearance on one of those ?

Think they must have inches and centimetres mixed up. Common problem.

so why bother with normal tyres then if winters are good in all conditions?

I [i]don't[/i] bother with them between november and april.

The compound is to soft for summer use.

I don't bother with them between november and april.

southern hemisphere? as nov-april is winter where i live

Its heavy snow down here in Bucks; just been out in the wife's Freelander - drifting and opp. lock everywhere, great fun.

I keep forgetting I have them on and end up sliding the back out and having to countersteer to prevent a spin.

What would it take to improve your memory if sliding the back out repeatedly fails do it?

As I said, 10-12" of "FRESH" snow, where the top layer will be pushed aside. I reckon the clearance is about 20cm/8". 12" of partially re-frozen slush would be another matter.

As has been discussed at length across the forum, winter tyres offer superior grip and control in all conditions below 7degC due to tyre compound and trad pattern. If you find you're doing the majority of your driving in temperatures above 7degC, put your summer tyres back on. It is that simple.

It's all great fun until someone gets hurt....

With snow consistently a foot deep my landy feels it.

Theres no way you drive through a foot of snow in a berlingo!

It doesn't matter whether you've got a BMW, 4x4, landrover with winter tyres or a ford focus, at least one person will drive badly, mess it up and cause delays meaning your stuck in the same traffic jam as everyone else.

I stand by my comments regarding the effectiveness of winter tyres and in particular the improved capacity they bring to my Berlingo. Those of you who subscribe to the "Winter tyres are pointless" mentality might be better spreading the sand on your road, rather than burying your head in it.

the problem with merc and bmw drivers is they cannot be arsed to buy a £10 hands free kit for their mobile phone so £400 notes on some winter tyres is not going to happen, their way of thinking the little people will always give them a push if they get stuck.

so why bother with normal tyres then if winters are good in all conditions?

As I needed new tyres anyway, if they are poor once it warms up I'll swap them for summer tyres and it'll cost me £30 to swap them back next winter. Seems reasonable to me to have the extra grip and safety for at least the next 3 or 4 months.

trouble with winter tyres is that they are rubbish/last a short time in normal conditions, which here in the midlands is 98% of the time, not worth the layout for the maybe 5 days a year where it snows

Edit: we left our Golf (with new standard) in the pub car park last night and went to get it this morning. Only about 1.5" of fresh, compacted snow on the ground and it would barely move out of the parking space, and when it finally did it was all over the place - compared to the XC90 which was driving around as if there was no snow at all.

and a rubbish driver with winter tyres is still a rubbish driver, maybe mandatory winter driving courses might be better

I'm sure there are plenty of poor drivers in Scandanavia and other places where winter tyres are compulsory... yet they manage to get through the winter without coming to a standstill.

If everyone fitted winter tyres then the country wouldn't grind to a halt with 2" of snow.

Last week the temperature was 10 degrees and the M&S tyres I have fitted were just fine. They didn't fall apart and the level of grip was just fine. I know people who run winter tyres all year round, it isn't an issue.

What would it take to improve your memory if sliding the back out repeatedly fails do it?

I reckon a fancy time machine that reversed my age by 20 years would improve my memory no end.

My point is that when going in a straight line you get used to a lot of front-end grip from the autosocks and it fools you into thinking you can corner faster than you can. You can't. Judging what speed you can corner without the back breaking out is dead tricky. But it's all sub 30 mph and can all be sorted out by opposite steering to counter the slide. Perfectly in control and quite a giggle.

BTW. folk who doubt the efficacy of winter tyres have not tried them. The issue for me buying and storing wheels. I think in DE/AUT, the garage stores the other tyres and swaps them over for you when you have bi-annual services. I would deffo go for that.

My GF just got back from the French Alps, and her opinion is that the French are far worse winter drivers and even less prepared than we are.

Those of you who subscribe to the "Winter tyres are pointless" mentality might be better spreading the sand on your road, rather than burying your head in it.

What crap. I have had Nokian WR (winter) tyres on my XC90 for the last 2 years and they're easily going to last 20k miles which is actually more than the standard Continentals do.

only 20k? are you a lottery winner or something?

Those of you who subscribe to the "Winter tyres are pointless" mentality might be better spreading the sand on your road, rather than burying your head in it.

blimey i think you have other issues than worrying about what tyres other folk use, maybe your belingo gets through mountains of snow cause you drive angry with foot down and teeth gritted?

just cool ya jets chap 😉

I think in DE/AUT, the garage stores the other tyres and swaps them over for you when you have bi-annual services. I would deffo go for that.

Kwik fit offer a tyre "hotel" for summer/winter tyres

BMW/Merc/MX5 RWD cars should just be banned when it snows. It was ridiculous. I helped push two mercs up a hill on the A3 ffs.

Our Mazda has been ace in the recent snow with bog standard tyres. Does have an LSD though, which seems to help.

Did our village to Farnham, Hogs Back in the blizzard to Guildford, then A3 back home. No problem, other than sitting in all the queues of traffic stuck behind the buses and HGVs that were struggling to get up Stag Hill.

i just had a guy and his wife parked sideways outside out house, not sure you can drive that way in 5'' in snow
i was just staring out the window at them in disbelief and they just looked at me and waved ❓

[i]Theres no way you drive through a foot of snow in a berlingo! [/i]

Powder snow, no probs. I broke my Mondeo out through a foot of snow back in January with fairly minimal digging. Berlingo's have nice narrow tyres, a heavy diesel lump in the front and not too much power, they're very capable. I used to have a Berlingo a few years ago, good car.

I miss my Mondeo though, that was so good in the snow, it'd get anywhere.

So when they bring in this law about winter tyres and we have 10 years like the previous 10 before this one (where there's been negligible snow in the S of England), you lot will then be moaning about having to store an unnecessary set of spare wheels. Bearing in mind that given normal temperatures for southern England, there are only about 2 months of the year where you're even likely to do most of your driving when it's <7C.

only 20k? are you a lottery winner or something?

I believe in the winter tyres, I will be getting some in the future. I think the big difference is the compound is designed to work in temps less than 7degC, and come summer the compound doesn't last as well or as well suited to the warmer temps. If this kind of weather is becoming a regular feature of the british winter, then we should have the same tyres rules as most of Europe does.
Check [url= http://www.evo.co.uk/news/evonews/248524/winter_tyres_tested.html ]this[/url] if you still doubt their effectiveness.

Can't see it ever being law as it's virtually un-policeable. Especially when they reckon there are one million cars on the road without tax and/or insurance.

Haven't seen the temperature above 7C up here in the N.E. of England since about mid October when going to or from work (mind you I do leave and come back in the dark) so I reckon mine will be good for a minimum of 5-6 months a year.

Is it really that warm in the south ie. <7C for only 2 months a year?

"BMW/Merc/MX5 RWD cars should just be banned when it snows. It was ridiculous. I helped push two mercs up a hill on the A3 ffs."

Why?

If I was only getting 20k miles out of a set of tyres i'd be either taking them back or going a little bit easier on the screeching noises round corners.

Can't see it ever being law as it's virtually un-policeable. Especially when they reckon there are one million cars on the road without tax and/or insurance.

All that would be needed is a similar system to Germany where if you do not have M&S marked tyres fitted and you have an accident then you are automatically at fault.

With decent winter tyres, i've said this on another thread, but you'd be hard pressed to notice any difference on road noice, cornering, fuel economy or wear rates compared to summer tyres, if you bought a car with winter tyres and were non the wiser.

Today in my impreza with winter tyres managed to tow several cars and even a light truck up snow inclines in Brum but thats because i'm a rad sick AWESOME driving god. Not. 😀 And in the three hours today mercs were def the worst in the snow, followed by golf's/A3's.

Woody - Member
Is it really that warm in the south ie. <7C for only 2 months a year?

These on on average he is talking about.
Months below 7 deg C

London
Month, Ave min, Ave max

Jan 2 6
Feb 2 7
Dec 4 7
http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/world/city_guides/results.shtml

Edinburgh
Month, Ave min, Ave max

Jan 1 6
Feb 1 6
Dec 2 7
http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/world/city_guides/results.shtml?tt=TT003780

So both London and Edinburgh only have three months where moth min and max are on average <= 7 deg C.

If we include moths where only minimums are below 7 deg C Edinburgh gains march April and November and London gains March April and November too.

It's pretty clear that on average The number of months which experience temperatures <7 deg C is the same North or South.

Kwik fit offer a tyre "hotel" for summer/winter tyres

That is well worth knowing. I'll look it up.

The Brick - interesting info, cheers

If you look at the London average graph below it looks like the average is below 7 for most of November going through as far as May. Quite a different picture to average low and average high. I'm happy now that I made the right choice as most of my driving is done early morning and evening where the average temp will be below 7C and therefore right for my tyres. I'm also surprised that there is so little difference between London and Edinburgh overall. London seemed a lot warmer than Scotland when I lived there!
[img] [/img]

mtbmatt - Member

"I'm sure there are plenty of poor drivers in Scandanavia and other places where winter tyres are compulsory... yet they manage to get through the winter without coming to a standstill."

It's not solely about driving skill, it's about familiarity with the conditions. You can go for years in this country and never have to drive on snow so it's not surprising that so many people lack the ability to deal with it. Doubt that's an option in snowy countries.

There was a link on another thread earlier today to an Autocar test...

Summer tyres had just 37% of the traction of a winter (not snow) tyre in snow. During braking, a car with summer tyres was still travelling at 35km/h (ish) when the winter tyre equipped car had stopped.

Winter tyres in summer had over 90% of the traction of a summer tyre in warm dry conditions.

All season tyres were in the middle.

Tyre wear and noise between the two types was negligible.

My van has mud and snow tyres for the past two years. They don't appear to be wearing any quicker than normal tyres, although the extra sipes that help traction in snow will be worn out about halfway through the life of the tyre as they don't go down to the carcass, still got the more aggressive tread though.

I have the M&S snow tyres fitted to the rear driven wheels of my van, normal all season tyres on the front. Lets just say it goes better than it stops in the snow...

The average temperature thing, taking into account that many people will be commuting early in the morning (generally the coldest period during 24 hours) and in the evening when the temperature has already started falling, you are probably driving in temps below 8 degrees more often than the stats would suggest.

First trip out with winter tyres on our bog standard 1.6 Focus.

A total revelation. Passed quite a few stuck cars, including quite a few foci. I was massively impressed, the car felt very surefooted, an recovered really well from any lack of grip.

These are staying on until the spring!

Theres no way you drive through a foot of snow in a berlingo!

I have...but once the slope got a bit steeper and the snow was deeper than 2/3's of the wheel arches, it was stuck...summer tyres and it was stuck as they wouldn't get the grip to go on with the slope...reckon if the road was flat I'd have made it through no probs...

This was about 4 years back at Carron Valley driving round the forest...massive snow dump and we needed to go exploring lines...Berlingo was faultless...it's got narrow tyres and a reasonably high floor so providing the slope isn't that much and the snow is pretty fresh, the Berlingo will cut through it.

Winter tyres must make the thing superb in the snow (in terms of making it through to your destination)...

I have the M&S snow tyres

a foot of snow isnt that tricky. i went out in the seat ibiza with winter tyres on the front last year and played around the industrial estate in approx 20 inches of powder/semi compact mix and i learnt how to get out of tricky situations.i got stuck in some places but always managed to get out of trouble. (had a raised landy close to hand if i did get stuck but it didnt happen)

winter tyres were on all of last year.i left them on through the summer and they wore out after approx 15,000 miles.even when worn,they are amazing due to the compound.

I had about 4 weeks of 66 mile commute days in snow last year that wouldnt have been possible on summer tyres. the road didnt go black for a long time and the car took less of a salt pounding than normal due to so much snow.

I agree with devs, they should start making it compulsory. imagine we cut down on all that grit/salt usage throughout the country and gave a small amount to everyone to go towards their new tyres! another thing getting my goat is the footage of police cars spinning around in an inch of snow with the wrong tyres on. Some guy was on tv last night towing a police car. wtf is that all about?! get ****in tyres on the emergency vehicles and save money in the long run. Just how much money has to be spent this winter on replacing or repairing police vehicles? Total bonkers.
They recon its so tricky to get the winter tyres in the u.k this year as conti etc cant produce enough of them after germany making it compulsory to have them on through winter. apparently.

a foot of snow isnt that tricky.

All you experts ought to know that there's snow and there's snow.. 🙂

found this:
There is an increasing sense of urgency around the subject of winter tyres, within some parts of the industry. Continental's consumer web site sums this up when it says, "switch to winter tyres now!" So what will it take to kick-start the winter tyre market?

There is no doubt that the government has a part to play. Something that would really help the UK market is legislation. A number of other EU countries have made the use of winter tyres a legal requirement and many offer specific winter recommendations. Without legislation, or at least official advice, it is always going to be difficult to encourage people to change life long habits. Even in a country like Sweden, where the need for winter tyres is quite visible, there were still a significant number of motorists driving without the appropriate tyres. That was until the government introduced legislation. In 1999, the government passed a law enforcing the use of season specific tyres. As a result, the total number of motorists using winter tyres went up 10 per cent by 2002, according to the Swedish National Road Administration. That may not sound like a huge amount, but the increase meant that nearly all drivers in the studied area (Östergötland) were using winter tyres.

Driving abroad - check legislation:

France
Switzerland
Austria
Italy
Finland
Latvia
Norway
Sweden
Slovenia
Germany
In the UK, however, there is no legislation and very little in the way of advice. The main authority on the subject, the Highway Code, is less than forthcoming. In fact the official guide, which describes itself as "essential reading for everyone," has nothing on the subject of winter tyres, and only contains three entries on the subject of tyres in general. The addition of a line explaining how improved grip could be attained by using winter tyres, would improve consumer perceptions of winter tyres no-end. But as we have seen, a legal requirement would be even better.

So what is the industry doing to register its support for the introduction of legislation, or at least better governmental advice?

The National Tyre Distributors Association is fully supportive of the introduction of winter tyre legislation, director, Richard Edy, told Tyres & Accessories.

"The NTDA is a founder member of an organisation called CETRO (Committee for European Tyre Retailing Organisations) which was set up a couple of years ago. CETRO, through its honorary secretary, Ruud Spuijbroek, has been lobbying within the European Commission for a change in tyre laws, including the acceptance that winter tyres are safer to use in the winter months."

This is certainly encouraging news, but, according to NTDA chairman, Martin Rowlands, "progress in promoting winter tyres has been slow."

Another industry body, the TIC, sees itself as the voice of tyre safety in the UK, but despite this position does not appear to have done anything significant in terms of lobbying.

The fact remains, as far as the UK government is concerned there is not likely to be any new legislation unless the EU introduces it first.

It is the same story with tread-depth. According to the AA's Richard Freeman, in wintry conditions, "it's true that to be safe you're better off with 3mm or more." But as far as Mr Freeman and the AA are concerned, "a change to a 3mm legal minimum would in our view lead to an unacceptable extra cost to drivers, as tyres with tread between 2mm and 3mm are still perfectly serviceable for normal driving for the majority of the year. We recommend a change at 2mm, as beyond that point performance drops off markedly."

The problem is, even though a major motoring association recommends changing tyres at 2mm, most consumers read the letter of the law, see 1.6mm and close their mind to the possibility of changing tyres. No doubt it will be the same with winter tyres.

Consumers aside, the fleet market is absolutely central to a successful introduction winter tyres. If the fleets get on board then it would start a domino effect that would see distributors more inclined to stock them and would ultimately lead to a sharp increase n the use of winter tyres. But the fleets will only pay out if they are obliged to or if there is something in it for them.

The introduction of governmental advice could lead to insurers offering reduced premiums to people who choose winter tyres. After all, 48 per cent of all accident claims are made during the autumn and winter months. Surely improved grip would reduce the accidents and make winter driving safer for motorists and cheaper for insurance companies. Again a similar scheme is already in operation on the continent. In Germany a driver involved in an accident could be negligent in the eyes of insurers if their vehicle was not using the appropriate tyres. So far, though, insurers have provided the industry with inconclusive responses on the subject. They, like the rest of the industry, are waiting for someone else to make the first move.

So if legislation has proven to be effective around the EU, and insurance incentives have the potential to create a similar effect, isn't it about time the UK market made took the lead?

Source Tyres & Accessories August 2004

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France
The use of winter tyres is not mandatory in France. Nevertheless in some mountainous areas signs warn drivers that snow chains are necessary. In France, drivers of vehicles that weigh up to 3.5 tonnes can use spikes from November until the end of March. Vehicles using spikes are restricted to a maximum speed of 90 km/h on out-of-town roads and 50 km/h in residential areas. In addition vehicles have to bare a badge indicating the use of spikes.

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Switzerland
Winter tyres are mandatory in Austria between 1st November and 15th April for vehicles not using snow chains. These dates may be extended in weather conditions persist.

Snow chains can only be used if the roads have a complete covering of snow and must be fitted on at least two driving wheels.

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Austria
Winter tyres are mandatory in Austria. The law states that passenger cars with a permissible maximum weight of up to 3.5 tonnes may be operated only between 1 November and 15 April in winter conditions such as snow, slush or ice if winter tyres have been installed on all wheels. All-season tyres are also considered winter tyres if they have the "M + S" mark.

As an alternative to winter tyres, snow chains may be used on at least two driving wheels, however, these may only be used in case the road is covered by a complete or scarcely broken snow cover or sheet of ice. Failure to comply with the law results in a fine up to 5,000 Euros and the vehicle could be impounded. Insurance is deemed void if a vehicle which is involved in an accident between November 1 and April 15 is not fitted with winter tyres.

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Italy
It is not compulsory to use winter tyres in Italy. Snow chains should be carried and used as dictated by local signs or road conditions - reduced speed limits may apply.

From 15th October to 15th April vehicles must be equipped with winter tyres or snow chains in the Val d'Aosta area.

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Finland
In Finland winter tyres are compulsory from 1st December to the end of February unless otherwise indicated by road signs. Winter tyres must be marked with the M&S symbol on the sidewall.

Spiked tyres may be used from 1st November until the first Monday after Easter.

Snow chains are allowed but only where there's sufficient snow to avoid any damage to the road surface.

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Latvia
Winter tyres are compulsory from 1st December until 1st March

Spiked tyres are not allowed from 1st May until 1st October

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Norway
Winter tyres are not compulsory,however snow chains are as dictated by local road signs - in the event that there is ice or snow covering the roads winter tyres or tyres with snow chains must be used.

Spiked tyres may be used from November 1st until the first Sunday after Easter. If spiked tyres are fitted there is a charge (in Oslo, Bergen and Trondhelm) stickers are available to buy daily, monthly or yearly.

From October 15th until May 1st you are permitted to use spiked tyres in Nordland, Troms and Finnmark.

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Sweden
Winter tyres which must be marked M&S are compulsory from December 1st until March 31st with a minimum tread depth of 3mm.

Spiked tyres may be used from October 1st until April 15th but must be fitted to all wheels. Please note that local authorities have the power to ban the use of spiked/studded tyres on their roads.

Snow chains may be used if weather/road conditions require.

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Slovenia
Snow chains must be carried from November 15th until March 15th (and when the winter weather conditions necessitate) by cars and vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes unless the vehicle is fitted with four winter tyres with a minimum tread of 3mm. Spiked tyres are prohibited.

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Germany
Motorists are obliged to make sure they have correct tyres to suit the winter weather conditions. This may mean the use of winter tyres (with M&S or snowflake symbol) and in extreme weather, the additional use of snow chains.

Vehicles with summer tyres fitted are not allowed to be driven on roads covered with snow and ice. Fines are in place for vehicles found to be doing so.

What crap. I have had Nokian WR (winter) tyres on my XC90 for the last 2 years and they're easily going to last 20k miles which is actually more than the standard Continentals do.

Jeez - I've got 36k out of the Bridgestone Dueller HT's on my pick-up and they have loads of tread left, albeit they will be getting changed soon, as they are nearly down to the wear indicators.

Summary?

It's quite Wintery actually matt..........

[i]Germany
Motorists are obliged to make sure they have correct tyres to suit the winter weather conditions. This may mean the use of winter tyres (with M&S or snowflake symbol) and in extreme weather, the additional use of snow chains.

Vehicles with summer tyres fitted are not allowed to be driven on roads covered with snow and ice. Fines are in place for vehicles found to be doing so. [/i]

We lived in Germany (Dusseldorf) through the winter of 2000/2001, didn't have winter tyres and barely got an inch (or should that have been 2.5cm) of snow. Biggest problem in Germany is that they all drive the same, whatever the weather... in fact I reckon an unrestricted AutoBahn in the wet is one of the scariest places to be.

lol. thats what i scrolled down to type but you beat me to it.

I just wish the right folk would get a bit more involved and make it compulsory sooner rather than later.I can see it from other peoples points of view like "where will the poor families find the money to keep their cars on the road when its hard enough as it is with fuel costs etc" That would be a pain for a lot of folk,but if it saves lives.. ::sighs::

Its GREAT Britain though.. stuff never happens.

+1 for winter tyres. Just fitted a set for the first time and I can say that they are a revelation. I've had plenty of experience driving in snow in the past 25 years in Scotland - always on 'normal' tyres. Chains are great, but you really need to get into bother before you'll get out in the cold (and usually dark) to fit them. I paid £200 for a set delivered and fitted, including steel wheels. I can't imagine even a minor bump causing me less than £200 worth of grief. Factor in the life of the tyres (hopefully 3-5 winters, and they are a no-brainer.

The levels of grip, especially under braking where it really matters, are incredible in snow and also impressive on sheet ice. You obviously need to exercise caution, but the margin of safety is so much better.

Compulsory in winter? I know it's a big expense for most, but in honesty, the compounded expense of accidents, slow traffic, blocked roads, emergency response, etc, etc do seem to make it worthwhile. Let's face it, if it makes sense for one car owner to pay for winter tyres as opposed to the cost of having a minor bump without factoring in the additional cost / disruption you can cause to others then it surely scales up to every vehicle on the road as a common sense approach. The only big issue is that of storage. I wouldn't fancy carrying my dirty alloys up to my flat in November when I'd just fitted my winter tyres. Business opportunity for removals / storage firms there...

20k on a set of car tyres seems pretty good to me

Jeez - I've got 36k out of the Bridgestone Dueller HT's on my pick-up and they have loads of tread left

Think the HT's may have a bit more tread depth than the standard 8mm of car tyres