[Closed] America's Cup

Yip, I got the 72's from the last series, apologies.

The current boats are still 45ft.

Have heard more than one person say our boat is slow, hard to argue when you see how we are being beaten. The AC is brutal and GBR are o fhe receiving end of a tough lesson so far.

Having read the rules again it's clear that all Jury decisions are On Water decisions and no recourse for protest room arguments.
And the Jury have re visited the Swedish/NZ incident and have admitted they should have called it a non infringement.

Gotta feel for Sweden, that's not racing.

Ouch ! Having watched the rounding a few times it looked a very harsh call to me as a non-AC expert

Today's schedule, wait for it..
NZ v Sweden !!
France v USA
Sweden v GBR

1 grudge match, 1 let's see if we can keep this thing flying match and 1 local needle grudge match and a bit of "shit, we better win this one" (for both teams)

That was a better display by Ben.

Did we "win" it or were Artemis poor? Missed tonight's races as Tuesday night is Ride Night with the lads.

Ben won the start very cleanly, he kept well clear upwind of Arte' but pinned them to the right just enough to make them stall, then he bore off an accelerated to full speed (6 to 38knts) in a few hundred mtrs. By the time he hit the turning mark he was 200 mtrs ahead and the gap was consistent all the way around. Neither team put a hull in the water longer than a few seconds, 99% of the manoeuvres we all foiling.

I was disappointed for the French, beaten by USA who just came out, stuffed them up at the start and sailed off into the distance. Didn't help the French when they hit the boundary during a gybe and had to slow down for 20secs or so before the penalty was called clear, but by this time USA were hitting the bottom mark 2.30 ahead.

Today it's Japan v France, GBR v NZ (ohhhh, tough one) USA v Japan (could be a decent grudge match race) France v GBR, tomorrow no racing, back on Friday for the next series.

To my non expert eye, GB seemed to win it. Won the start, and according to the post race graphs they show, were faster on the first 2 legs, then matched the Swedes.
The Swedes did race twice, which may have been a factor.
(Seems odd how they plan the races. Only 3 yesterday, so why make one team race twice?)

I guess it gives them all a clear day off at some point for work on the boat?

They're quite good, and mercifully short, but it's not match racing as I know it. I can't see anyone throwing 42 tacks in the final beat, there not long enough for one thing.

I imagine the original syndicate members spinning in their graves.

The original race was just a multi-boat race round the IOW. The original syndicate members might get quite excited by the current crash and burn format.

Frustrated that I can't get feed to this - not a BT sport customer and freeview 115 does not seem to be a thing around these parts. A shame as 'these parts' includes where the BAR HQ is.

Anyway from the summaries it seems like a bit of a drag race from the start line with the lead only changing when one team makes a handling error. Have there been any races where the lead has changed multiple times or changes because of tactics rather than a handling error?

Also has the racing been more enthralling or impressive than when they were using the AC45Fs in the World Series? I guess from reading the reviews the main advantage of the ACCs is the tech is good enough that can be sailed on the foils all the way around the course including around the corners if done right.

https://www.youtube.com/user/AmericasCup

The original race was just a multi-boat race round the IOW. The original syndicate members might get quite excited by the current crash and burn format.

People forget the 'original guys' were people like Tom Sopwith who founded both Sopwith and Hawker, played ice hockey and had a keen interest in 'big boys toys', I think the idea of a flying sailing boat would be right up his street!

It's on free BT for the first round.

It's on free BT for the first round.

Yes, but that's not much help if the freeview channel isn't available everywhere....which it isn't

convert - Member
Frustrated that I can't get feed to this - not a BT sport customer and freeview 115 does not seem to be a thing around these parts. A shame as 'these parts' includes where the BAR HQ is.

Anyway from the summaries it seems like a bit of a drag race from the start line with the lead only changing when one team makes a handling error. Have there been any races where the lead has changed multiple times or changes because of tactics rather than a handling error?

Also has the racing been more enthralling or impressive than when they were using the AC45Fs in the World Series? I guess from reading the reviews the main advantage of the ACCs is the tech is good enough that can be sailed on the foils all the way around the course including around the corners if done right.

Coverage, does seem odd. The Mrs can't get 115 in Harrogate either and that's on a new Bravia.

Racing, to be honest you are right .. well at the moment. It does seem to be passes occur most when the other team bins it or drags around a tack or a mark. There are a few splits at the leeward gate but less than I have expected. So, to some degree the passes are made when errors are made. In saying that the course is quite "thin" by that I mean the boundary lines are pinned in to keep the boats in the Sound, which mean you can't bang a corner or sail a shift all the way.. bias seems irrelevant on the line because it's a tight reach too.. also, hmmmm well, once over the line and to the first mark the margin for overtaking a leeward boat is very limited because the vector to both mark and boundary is quite tight.. so .. so far the first off the line is the first to the mark then they just sail to the boundary then gybe and that's pretty much it, nobody has reached off the line yet then gybed at the first mark.. they've all sailed to the boundary then gone.
Of course, this all may change today who knows.

As is, keeping the boat on the foils at full chat all the time (including manoeuvres) is proving to be the only option to win, one mistake and that's pretty much it.

Is it boring to watch ? That's a question only the objective audience can decide.

I'll watch the whole thing, BT sport subscription is cheap enough through Sky therefore I'm looking forward to see the whole series through to the end on TV for once (and not just the finals)

[quote=bikebouy ]Is it boring to watch ? That's a question only the objective audience can decide.

Watching a whole race almost certainly is. The highlights are quite interesting though, with the vastly increased penalty for a mistake compared to the old displacement boats. In a way I quite like it how you can pin your opponent and sail around the outside in the way the French did to BAR, or indeed in a very similar way what BAR did to the Swedish boat at the start. Such tactical manoeuvres didn't used to work.

Yes, but that's not much help if the freeview channel isn't available everywhere....which it isn't

But I assume, since you have access to the internet, you can go to:
[url= http://sport.bt.com ]bt sport[/url]

and click on the link.

Today's racing looks like it'll be postponed, hasn't happened yet but the first 2 races have been so far...

But I assume, since you have access to the internet, you can go to:
bt sport

and click on the link.

All well and good if you live somewhere with internet access fast enough to stream TV....rural Wales isn't that place (except on rare occurr)

The original race was just a multi-boat race round the IOW. The original syndicate members might get quite excited by the current crash and burn format

Not really, the syndicate that built America and came to the UK to race for money. The found no takers and eventually a cup was put up for a race around the Isle of Wight. America won it by virtue of what might be considered cheating. They went back to the USA gave the cup to the NYYC and it was put forward as a trophy to encourage international sport.

It was for match racing, not the drag strip style racing that is used today.

[img] ?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=3&d=77BFBA49EF878921A343B2C87A49D8F5AD5EFD119C73870A3097ED044F14C6B55EA2073123FA8A65[/img]

Not enough wind? What counts as not enough wind for these boats?

6 knots

Weather today is 29C and 19knts of wind !!

Christ... totally outclassed by the NZ team.
Manoeuvres, boat handling, speed.. everything Ben ain't got.

And retired from the race, if they'd carried on they'd have been at least 7mins behind..

Bloody hell, that was stressful.

Not watched a single race [thankfully it seems] but it certainly seems that BAR are just well behind the pack in foil technology - which surprises me as the UK is pretty good at this stuff.

This campaign will be doing nothing for any future British sailing sponsorship requests.

It's surprisng we are this much off the pace but we where never going to make it to the cup match anyway.

To be fair, in the recent feature online on the BBC, I don't think Ainslie really expected to be competitive this time round...he was talking about a 20 year project

We're definitely into the semis with the win over France though - I'm not sure where the idea that we're well behind the pack comes from, we might well make the Challenger finals yet - it's only NZ and USA who appear definitively faster.

Hmmm, rumour has it that the AC is planned for every Two years..

And a 20 year programme is flawed, events in the next 18mths will put paid to funding it.

Bikebouy give it a rest. There are many who have done very well out of the Referendum result and will likely do very well post Brexit.

You are so very wrong.
&
Do not tell me what to do.

Anyway, looks like the wind is around today and the overnight vids are a bit more than the general media sound bites so hoping the French come out with some tactics and tweaks ..

System failure on BAR against TNZ yesterday left them with no control of the dagger board, hence no foiling. Lots of gremlins to sort. But they have clocked the fastest of all boats in the stronger winds, so maybe the package is there, it just needs unlocking.

Hmmm, being selected by NZ as their preferred whipping boy does not bode well. Artemis won less races at the group stage but they would still fancy giving us a kicking. Oh well, BAR have 5 more races to gather some data for the next cup in 4 years time.

selected on the basis of low wind speed on the opening days, but the forecast (on the BBC) suggests good wind now, which BAR are fast in. lets see what happens this afternoon. (fingers crossed!)

double post sorry

There seems to me to be something about the way the british (particularly those who come through British Sailing) go about racing that makes it painful and exciting to watch in equal measure - always make it hard at the beginning and then thrive on the fight to keep the points down (or up?!) at the end. Here's hoping this is what we've got with BAR... boat speed/handling perhaps not consistent enough though to beat THE CYCLORS...

You are so very wrong.

In Jamanba's defense (can't believe I agree with him) LR is owned by TATA, so the potential for closer ties with India might not do them any harm.

Oh dear

Oh well, BAR have 5 more races to gather some data for the next cup in 4 years time.

Well, I got that wrong. Scratch that, 3.5 races of data. 😐

at least they looked almost competitive until another failure...

Massive dive from NZ.

men still in the water.

All accounted for.

Hopefully tomorrow we'll actually get some racing!

Will that NZ boat be badly damaged?

From the footage it looked remarkably intact so maybe not. Also with wind forevast to be even steonger they will likely have an extra day to fix it, even if they cannot make the start tomorrow they would still be 3-2 up and BAR look off the pace.

Happy to know eveyone was ok

#bringtheboathome

Outclassed in the light winds and outclassed in medium conditions. Ben play to his strengths in the stronger winds where the boat was optimised, sadly even though he won the vast majority of his starts the lack of time on the water in light airs unfolded.

Artemis however have a cracker, done a cracker and played a blinder. Fast boat, Outridges starts have been solid if not exactly enthralling, and Ian's calls on the shifts have been damn near perfect. Superb showing, I'm routing for them to race the NZ team and actually try to get them into a match race instead of a drag race. This is where Artemis will score highly, strong deep covers and sailing them into the corners..
here's to the next round...

am I right in saying that BAR were the only other boat except Oracle who took a race off TNZ? If they could have got more consistency around the racecourse, and made some better choices on the foils BAR would have been right up there.

Going to be following Artemis closely now. Go Ian!

BAR had a great boat, cracking team and Ben.. who would have thought light wind boat handling would be an issue? Not me, never would have thought that the main restriction. You can win all the starts you like, missing shifts and being unable to keep the boat foiling during manoeuvres is what did it.
I'm hoping the funding stream remains in place, as is it was a two year campaign based on getting to the finals, this they haven't achieved but they have shown they can compete in heavy air (I say heavy, I mean 15knts +) so depending on LR staying committed and BAR (a big supporter of UK sailing for many years) remaining the 36th Cup could become a reality, certainly if the ACP brings in an AC challenge every 2 years (has been mooted)
Arte' were always noted at being fast, now they've settled into a start win groove it's theirs to lose, sad as I'll be to be Dean out of the competition I will be overjoyed to see Ian and the boys finally get the recognition they deserve.

Job, jobbed.

Good result in strong winds..

We where miles off the pace from the beginning. NZ picked us as the weakest opponent.. Chapeau for the very good money the sailors / shore team pocketed but what a waste of £100-£150 million pounds. That's 5 or 6 Volvo Ocean Race Campaigns and probably 6-8 Vendee Globes. 20 years worth of top level sponsorships

and made some better choices on the foils BAR would have been right up there.

missing shifts and being unable to keep the boat foiling during manoeuvres is what did it.

oops

Nice to hear my mate Ken Read doing the commentary still (he asked me out to the US back in '85 to stay with him and do foredeck on his J24, amongst other things, - best 6 months of my life!).
Top bloke and incredible racer.

Sharkbait, the pace of the things is blistering. Had a great curry with Mitch a couple of nights ago. Apparently, the media team can't stop laughing at Ken drawing nowt but pubes with the telescribe...
The village is pretty cool. No Guinness stand, so the hord descended on the 'French wine' stand.
Pretty certain BAR have full backing for the next Cup. Rumour among the sailors is that if TNZ win, it's likely to go back to 90' monos.

If you're struggling to get the boat foiling (which is #1 priority) they you're not likely to tack any more than absolutely necessary.

BAR's foiling wasn't that bad, the race they won against NZ they had 100% air time. They just weren't quick enough.

Christ I'm not sure mono's would be a good idea - not very 'televisual' [is this a word?].
OT..... So does your other engineer still have a job?

Well after all the TV coverage stats and interest in SocMed the change back to Monohulls would be a step backwards IMO, mind I've never been a fan of Cats but these 50fters are damn well exciting to watch... and that's the main reason for the change... changing to a two year competition is a terrible idea, keep the same protocol as is now because it's just about perfect.

Sweden loose a man over board!

The AC50's are literally too quick.At least for match racing.In fleet racing it's spectacular (if not bloody dangerous) but when it's boat on boat it means that one mistake/missed tack/wrong side of a shift loses a massive amount of ground and the race is for all intents and purpose over.
The whole point of match racing is the tactical side.It's not about about being the fastest boat....only the first boat to cross the finish line.
There's been quite a few races where despite sailing a better race tactically with better boat handling teams have lost out to raw boat speed (though Alinghi's lunge inside at the mark was amazing!!)

Well Nathan went for a swim today, Arte' are 2-1 down tonight because of the slip up.

Back tomorrow.. best of 9, first to 5.

Well I've managed to find a site that's streaming the BT feed, only saw the important bit of the last race - I can easily imagine being hurled off the side in a turn! Close stuff though.

I watched a bit of the 2000 AC straight after.... god is was like watching grass grow 🙁
Foiling HAS to stay otherwise nobody will be watching.

The whole point of match racing is the tactical side.It's about about being the fastest boat....only the first boat to cross the finish line.

Err it's [b]always[/b] been match racing.That was sort of the whole point tbh.

Back in 1851 there was no such thing as the match racing we know today - it developed as boats became so close in speed.
I guess that although today's AC cats are pretty similar in speed they're just to fast for much in the way of close quarters manouevering.

Anyway, watched to of today's races and TNZ send to have a pretty complete package with very impressive VMG.
Going to be hard for Emirates now.

Looking tough for Arte' the last tack/crash didn't do much for their lead then the reach to the finish was sooooo tight...

All to play for today, hope the wind hold up at 15knts..

although any sailing on TV is good, I wanted the rule to follow something similar to the TP52 rule. Out and out planning in a big monohull. the circa 2000 AC boats were nice, but they should have evolved into something like the TP52 boats. Still good for TV, but not quite so bat shit crazy.

wish Artemis all the luck, but this was always going to be about TNZ and Oracle.

For the AC to remain good on TV it really needs to stay close to shore and I think that does rule out bigger mono's.
Back in the early 90's I used to race in the Ultra 30's which were fairly bonkers and def needed good crew work, but I'd still prefer to watch the current boats even though most of the crew don't even need to know how to sail (which is disappointing).
The last race last leg was pretty epic - I was shouting at the TV for Arty to get it on the line. 40 knts - amazing!

Well done to ETNZ..... very convincing today - lets hope they can do the same to Oracle!

Yip, that's it. Best team won in the end.

This weekend is the Finals...

Oof, nice job ETNZ [claps].
It would have been unfair if Oracle had won that second race because of that huge wind shift.

Don't get me wrong, I love the foiling cats, except for one thing...why do they always look "nose down"? I'm sure there's a v good reason for it, but it looks wrong!

Looks well dodgy but apparently it's more aero.

I assumed it was a function of manually controlling the main foils and fixed rudder foils and dipping a bow being less risky than getting airborne.

Dunno..dipping a bow could lead to pitchpoling...like NZ did the other day! Anyway, looks weird but they all do it (and did so during the last America's Cup)..so must make some sense. It just looks wrong.

2-0 to the Kiwis 🙂 the very very best thing that could happen to the AC is a NZ win, fingers crossed.

Err it's always been match racing.That was sort of the whole point tbh.

The first boats that raced for the cup were given a handicap. One boat would have to beat the other by a given margin. Match racing developed when rated boats were used. These are boats where the designers are given free range to design what they want but a series of measurements from the boat put into a complicated formula must give a set answer.

All thing being equal, waterline length and sail area are the deciding factors. Designers try to get an advantage by trying to beat the formula.

I prefer match racing rather than the drag races the filers tend to dish up.I guess it's not exciting enough for the sound bite generation.

 

2-0 to the Kiwis