[Closed] America's Cup

What about cycling WinchWenches?
[img] [/img]

Ben Ainslie has written a bit in one of today's papers. The New Zealand boat use bike power instead of the more traditional hand/arm grinders. I guess more power with pedals, but, BA says, it's not so easy to move around. Allstarts a two weeks.

Got free tickets from the Club but gave them to some rather excited 15yr olds, hope they had fun in Pompy.

Bens been around, with Ian, still great down to earth blokes on a world stage.

Looking forward to the competition, there's an app that covers all races and live vid feeds too.

Enjoy.

IIRC Paul Elvstrom designed an earlier America's cup 12 metre with the winches being pedal powered. An added bonus was that with the grinders below deck there was less windage. It never caught on then either 😀

All kicks off tomorrow. Chances of Ainslie and LR-BAR winning?

good article here about the rivalry between sir ben and the US team:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sailing/2017/05/24/sir-ben-ainslie-jimmy-spithill-forging-americas-cup-rivalry/

Why would you need to grind solidly for 10 minutes?

Tacks are supposed to be quick, so a 20-40 second blast should be enough?

Edit: Yay BAR FTW.

Goslings, ice, ginger beer and lime at the ready. I really hope BAR can make it through, or failing that Artemis. Nice to see a thread here - sailing anarchy is a tad vitriolic.

I believe the grinders also provide power for all the hydraulic systems to raise, lower and control the foils. Hence they have to be worked for more than tacking & gybing.
Anyone got a good link for following the racing when it starts? (I dont have BT sport).

Tacks are supposed to be quick, so a 20-40 second blast should be enough?

Yes, but if you are in a tacking duel, you'll be doing multiple tacks for as long as the grinders can keep going.

We've got live feeds at the Club, I expect it'll be rammed with BAR supporters.. 😀

Starts tomorrow night, just as the bar opens 😆

I believe the grinders also provide power for all the hydraulic systems to raise, lower and control the foils. Hence they have to be worked for more than tacking & gybing.

Yes, but if you are in a tacking duel, you'll be doing multiple tacks for as long as the grinders can keep going.

Good point, but you do get some rest between.

Tens of millions of pounds to go at 60mph!?

Stick a great big engine on it! 😀

10s of millions and still dependent on the weather too 🙂 looking a bit lively tomorrow.

[quote=jimdubleyou ]Good point, but you do get some rest between.

Yeah, it's just like an interval session, far easier.

Yep, all the boats hydralic systems (for boards/foils, wing etc) have to be driven by power generated on board, so in theory the 'cyclors' should give a significant advantage as they'll be more hydraulics available (e.g. for 'pumping' the top sections of the wing, as has been discussed online somewhere).

For coverage, I think BT Sport have announced they will show it all free-to-air over a free view channel and on Sky and Virgin, without needing a BT Sport subscription. Yay!

Edit:
Looks like BT are showing some of it free, but not all:
http://sport.bt.com/more-sport-hub/more-sport/bt-sport-unveils-schedule-for-americas-cup-this-summer-S11364182779689

My understanding is that the Landrover BAR boat is just too slow in a straight line. It only won one race in the final practice races. The Japanese boat (Softbank?) was v quick

60mph my arse. Also considerably slower than a tiny kite surfer. No wonder they changed the rules to stop kite surfers being eligible for the sailing speed record. Thumbs up to top bloke Ben and BAR though.

60mph my arse. Also considerably slower than a tiny kite surfer. No wonder they changed the rules to stop kite surfers being eligible for the sailing speed record. Thumbs up to top bloke Ben and BAR though.

Now [i]this[/i] is a racing yacht...

[IMG] [/IMG]

Happy days - I flippin loved it last time around and my minted mate who got interested when I showed him the youchoob channel ended up doing some of the Clipper.

From last time around - http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/psa-sailing-americas-cup-nz-vs-usa-pretty-cool-stuff

Hey Count Z, notice the foils hanging of your boat? Not much of the boat spends time in the water. And kite surfers slow down in the air. They need rail contact to generate drive, otherwise they travel at wind speed at a max.

As is normal for the AC, the first days racing has been delayed due to strong winds. Races will resume on Saturday.

It's a bit annoying these rules, but IIRC there is an upper wind limit in the rules that is set at something like 25knts..

I spent 9 weeks in Valencia in 09 watching the AC in the old IACC monohulls, whilst it was utterly amazebalz there were some very frustrating days spend ashore whilst the wind topped 25knts and yet the sea state was less choppy than the Solent..

Also, rumour has it the AC might return to Monohulls again...

Yep. There's always been a lot of waiting.

I'd put money on these boats beating any kite around a course. There's a huge difference between straight line speed and actually having to go somewhere. They'll point both higher and deeper, vmg will be off the scale compared to kites.
Certainly a kite is quick on a broad reach, but this racing isn't that.

True dat. I do remember Robert Teriitehau beating a French 12m Cup boat on a windsurfer though. And that was on a normal triangle.

I had always thought waiting til the wind drops was just for wimps.

But earlier this week I was in Tarifa for a spot of windsurfing and some days it was blowing 55 knots plus. That's a force 11. The biggest sail anybody was using was a 2.7m. At home, my most used sails are 8.4 and 7.2. And I think I've got a 3.4m which I have hardly used since I bought it in 1994.

I waited.

I went along to the appropriately named Hurricane Hotel where it is a bit more sheltered and went out on a 4m. Got tossed about like a rag doll.

Anybody think of a more appropriate activity for a fat 63yr old?

Nope, absolutely crack on 8)

Stop when you can no longer waterstart..

I'd like to see a kite surfer that qualified under the rules for craft entering the America's Cup. 😀 Assuming that they've not changed them too much.

Mind you, I lost a lot of interest when they moved from 12 metre boats.

Progress, bah, humbug.

Why would you need to grind solidly for 10 minutes?

Tacks are supposed to be quick, so a 20-40 second blast should be enough?

Hydraulic accumulators, the power goes into those and then they use that to run the control systems.

That and rule 42 has been suspended so they can pump* the wingsail, it'll be interesting to see if all the extra power ETNZ have will get them foiling sooner/longer.

*for anyone not familiar with sailing, watch windsurfing, pull the sail in and rock the boat to windward violently whilst rounding up into the wind, then bear away as the velocity header hits to keep speed, and repeat. It's knackering, but adds a lot of speed to a light boat if you can keep it up for more than a few attempts. Rule 42 is the rule that bans it ("a boat shall compete by using only the wind and water to increase, maintain or decrease her speed. Her crew may adjust the trim of sails and hull, and perform other acts of seamanship, but shall not otherwise move their bodies to propel the boat")

Also, rumour has it the AC might return to Monohulls again...

Cat's out of the bag now, why would they go back to 12's or IACC when a production gunboat could beat them whilst the helms wife supps a G&T on the foredeck.

I'd like to see less reliance on tech though, it get's dull when one boat just wins race after race.

I never understood the IACC boats. They wanted a change from the Twelves as the boat were not used for anything else and then opted for a boat whose sole use is the competition.

At least the Twelves could be raced in classic events and were great sea boats.

IIRC they'd stop sailing the IACCs when the wind got above 20 knots, when a Twelve is just gathering her skirts and getting up to pace.

They are beautiful boats too, well above the waterline anyway.

Let's see a return to the J class. 😀 Probably cheaper that the foilers and better for match racing.

Bring back, Conner, Blackaller, Turner, **** it, even Dixon.

The day I find I can no longer waterstart might be the day I stop doing quite a few things. (Gulp)

Kiwi big boats for all:

[img] [/img]

That was when Conner sailed a cat in the Cup, First ever multihull to take part .

The New Zealander's claimed that the Deed of Gift had never been changed to allow a boat with shorter waterline length than the stated one of 90 feet if memory serves.

They built that monster of 120 feet overall. Conner responded with a 60 foot long catamaran 😀 Gotta love a lateral thinker.

i remember watching the racing, at times Connor was intentionally sailing badly so that the gap didn't look so ridiculous. It wasn't really in the spirit but Fay (the kiwi that put in the challenge) should really have checked his facts a bit more before stumping up the cash!

Conner was real character, I loved him and the era of the Twelves.

He was having a pop at Chris Dixon, accusing the Kiwis of cheating by building their boats in glass fibre when every other 12 metre had been in aluminium.

He reckoned it was so the could make the end of the boat thinner in construction, when the rules demand an equal skin thickness throughout the hull. Easy to check with aluminium, nigh on impossible with glass fibre except by drilling holes in it.

Dixon's reply to the request was "over my dead body". Conner, without batting an eyelid retorted " I can live with that". Even Dixon had to chuckle.

His time keeping at the start of a race was phenomenal, inch perfect on the line, every time.

First man to lose the America's Cup, and the first to win it back.

It's on live now, Freeview channel 115.

[url= https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x174uig_new-world-record-kitesurf-56-62-kts-104-8-km-h-alex-caizergues-2013_sport ]104.8kmh and in contact with the water all the time.[/url]

104.8kmh and in contact with the water all the time.

well if we're going off topic - i'm having issues getting channel 115. Ive got a 3 year old samsung tv with i think freeview(don't have sky or whatever) I've done a channel scan and still no 115. Suggestions before the 4th race starts welcomed.

So? It ain't a boat, it's a ski with a wing or kite attached, it just happens to be on water, but it could be on snow, ice, sand, or Tarmac if you stuck itty bitty little wheels on it.
There's only one environment that an America's Cup boat can operate in because it's a boat!

In rebuttal of that comment; likewise yachts work perfectly well on land with itty bitty wheels, it's called land yachting. They also work on ice whith skates.

Pointless comparrison though, as pointed out before a boat would be finished before the kite surfer made it to the windward mark.

No 115 on my FreeView box

same jambalaya.
I don't have a box but i think its built in as relatively new tv. Just updating my software - last updated 2014. Ive done 2 channel scans but still no 115.

Irrespective of whether you class it as a boat (personally when I go kitesurfing I don't say "I'm off sailing darling") its still damm impressive and damm ballsy.

Well that was interesting drag race off the line.
With artemis touted as fast and bar slow after the practice races. BAR looked to have at least 1-2knots advantage!

Phew! Not much of a boat speed issue there was there.
Can BAR do it? Surely not. Spithill must be bricking it!
Shifty though and some BIG splits considering this.
Not much of a match race was it.

@pahoehoe so you have it now ?

What's bizarre is coverage is on freeview but live video through the app is blocked 😐

Nope! Popped to my mates house.

This next matchup is BIG. USA v NZ

Good racing so far, one race left of this opening series and it's Ben next again.

It's clearly not just about boatspeed, lots of tactics being employed... if you know what you are looking for.

Loving Swedens first stint, can't quite understand the SoftBank crew yet, but the French are out of contention sadly.

Just found it live on American TV! The course looks stunning in Bermuda - I've often cycled up there!!

I think it's pathetic the BBC are not showing it. Can't find 115 either.

Oooof !

And looks like damage to BAR Port hull... !

Bloody follow my leader.. grrrr.

At least Ben has 2point lead.

And... over.

Great day.

It was blooming close at the start, BAR hull took out the grinders on the SoftBank squad, silly mistake Ben..

Round 2 tomorrow, 3 on Monday, 4 Tuesday, 5 Wednesday.

Same time, same channel.

Don't like the foils, I hope they all break.

Looks like they had to nurse the boat around the course, with essentially a hole in the bottom. When they stopped at the dockside they all had to bail like fury to prevent it sinking! Hope they manage to repair for today's racing.

Without the foils, BAR would have definitely sunk and it would have been game over!

I would love to see more frequent sinkings.

You're not American by any chance!

BAR sustainability - I hope they manage to pick up all that carbon fibre from the course for recycling!

So without TV I look to the trusty press for coverage..

"America's Cup 2017: Sir David Ainslie and Great Britain endure mixed bag on first day" - Daily Express

Who followed it with "Sir David Ainslie's crew made a strong statement in their pursuit of the America's Cup today in their first race.."

You couldn't write it never mind make it up, no doubt another product of meejia studies at Bognor University for the terminally retarded.

You should have heard all the Balcony One Design sailors at the Club this morning... 😆

It seems the BT freeview channel isn't available everywhere

Get the Beers in, its on and Bens back for another rubbing..

Spoilers:

Even without putting a hole in the boat, Ainslie can't round a mark without crashing.

"Handbrake Charlie" is his new name.

Didn't watch it, but seen the result. Assume Ainslie dropped the boat rounding a mark again?

Awful, woeful boat handling.

Won the start, bailed it then seemed to wander around the course with blinkers on.

Best race was Sweden and NZ, tick tack all the way 9 crosses and the Swedes were in it to win until the last Mark where they picked up a P-S penalty... which was no where near a penalty, I'm hoping it's gone to the jury because it was a blinkered decision.

The French did well R1, but thier R2 were slow and SoftBank just pealed away like the French were trawling for Groupers.

Missed first race, second was cracking- not sure on the penalty-at these speeds I have no idea what close means. We'll take the point, but I'm not convinced it was correct. America's Cup though, no such thing as a fair fight. 🙂
Can the penalty even be overturned?

Can the penalty even be overturned?

I watched some of the races today. They're quite good, and mercifully short, but it's not match racing as I know it. I can't see anyone throwing 42 tacks in the final beat, there not long enough for one thing.

I imagine the original syndicate members spinning in their graves.

Jury protests still in force, always will be because on water infringements are between two boats not jury and boat. However there are jury decisions made on infringements the jury considers falling foul of the rules. You see the blue flashing lights on the transom of the boat ? Means an infringement has taken place and instead of the rule breaker spinning around 720degrees it's now a minimum 2 boat length distance between the infringer and the other boat..
NZ called the P-S and the jury following upheld the call..
Those speed boats following each competitor contain jury members, they are there to enforce the rules and make on water decisions instead of always taking it back onshore to the protest room, means decisions can be made quicker and easier in real time.

Not sure what Bens thinking now, but getting angry will definitely help him... he's good when he's angry.

How come BAR have gone from winning everything in the last series to being thrashed this week? Without the 2 points we carried in we'd be out of it now.

Boat handling, its simple.

Ben and the team are an amazing group of sailors, the boat is one of the best (although some detractors have highlighted it's lacking speed) but the boat and crew are sailing it reasonably well, but that's just not enough. Boat handling these things is a specialists game, BAR have been sailing this enough so they should be able to power on and deliver the speed.. but it's not gelling, they're stalling mid flight and slow out of 3/10 manoeuvres, these mistakes are punished severely by gains of 100's of meters by the other team, and its tricky to make that up unless the other team makes a mistake.. and they're not, it's as simple as that. Tactics of old are out, luffing and pinning are things of the past, now it's all big bear always and intimidation at speed where luff to wind matches don't cut it anymore.
He's got the start mentality dialled, he's got the killer instincts required, he's got the grit, what they lack are boat handling skills and I'm worried for them. Bens come from mid table before now to win outright, he's a skilled helmsman and tactician but unless he can keep that thing flying fast he's facing a tough task to stay where he is.

If you watch the vid feeds and gossip on FB (Americas Cup feeds, not the gossip mongers) tonight's interview of the squad manager, by Bens wife (of all people) majored in the "if anyone can, Ben can" but it's not just Ben, it's the squad too.. keep the boat at full chat all of the time until it crosses that line.

But we've been in this situation before, Bens made of something deep within that he needs to get angry about, I'm hoping he's off kicking a wall or crushing beer cans behind the tent rather than be interviewed by his Wife for the umpteenth time on TV.

Sory..being thick here, but I thought the boats used in the America's Cup Series races weren't the same as the ones being raced in the actual cup races now...or am I wrong on that?

I doubt anybody who can remember 4 years back (1-8) will write off Ben Ainslie's team even if they're well down. They have it all to do though.

The boats are now bigger, the last series was AC45's (45 ft cats) these series boats are AC72's (72 ft cats) and hydraulic rams for control lines. So much bigger, more powerful and much quicker.

Nope.They raced the world cup series in AC45F's.These are for all intents and purposes one design.They had AC45S's for development and training.They have the same hull shape as the F's but in house designed control systems,wings and foils.They were never raced.
From these prototypes they built the ACC boats.Still same hull design but these are the final boats they race in the Americas Cup races proper
[url= https://www.americascup.com/en/ac35-The-Boats.html ]here[/url]