[Closed] Am I entitled to ask if my employer has screwed me over?

Of course

You can ask for feedback. They don't have to give you any.

Having been in the position of having to interview and select folk, I'd also point out that you wouldn't be the first to feel aggrieved at what [i]they felt[/i] was an unfair selection process. I've been accused of all sorts of prejudice - none of it justified.

I just accepted a post which I know for a fact had a more immediately qualified applicant- they took me on because they thought I was the right person and could be trained up, whereas she's the wrong person despite being already trained. It's not just an arms race.

Ask for feedback if you wish but do be prepared for it to be hot air, it always has been for me, even after interviews where I knew I'd made an arse of it I've always had polite nothings.

yes but you need to ask what good can come of it

It is highly unlikely you will be able to prove they "screwed" you over unless they are really stupid
Approach it as a learning experience rather than trying to find out why they screwed you over

I feel your pain but the whole point was too choose someone and it was not you. It will be difficult to prove it was anything other than fair and you will possibly look like a "bad" employee in future promotions

Your Union rep

I've been accused of all sorts of prejudice - [s]none[/s] some of it justified.

Corrected your typo

Aye, if you get an answer, you may not like it.

druid - [i]none[/i] of it?

Ok Al - you got me.

There was that one-eyed, black, lesbian, jew...

... that turned up on a fixie.

I've already asked for feedback and not received it. I suppose to be more specific then, what I need to know is do they have any legal obligation to be transparent?

I can understand why the most qualified person (on paper) is not always a dead cert but in this instance I know the job was mine until my line manager prevented me from getting it. This has not been relayed to me, but I know it's the case. He also made a rhetorical remark when I applied warning me that he could prevent me from progressing.

What do you esxpect them to tell you, that you where the wrong colour, sex, gender alignmnet or they just didnt want you.

Best to just put it down to experience.

No - you're not entitled to ask.

You are only entitled to ask if you are at risk of redundancy, and then you can only ask for your scores.

But entitled to ask doesn't mean you shouldn't ask. Request some feedback - qualifications aren't everything and there may be something you need to work on.

I've just gone through similar. The feedback I got was people didn't like my old boss and that makes me somehow tainted..... Not impressed with that feedback in the slightest.

they wont admit to what you think happened and wont be as stupid as leave a paper trail

It does happen but you will never prove it

muddyfunster - Member
in this instance I know the job was mine until my line manager prevented me from getting it.

You can't have the other person's scores, Data Protection Act an'all that.

Don't bother asking. You probably know the answer, either your face don't fit or the other person has much more potential than you.

My advice is pul your socks up, put up and shut up 😉

druidh

There you go then. If you already know the reason, why bother asking?

Because they lied to me. And I invest my time and money in applying for the other post. And I obviously wanted the job and believe I been treated unfairly.

I am trying to gauge where I stand before going any further. I don't see why I should just roll over and say yeah, nice one guys, you f888ed my career....I'll just sit here and smile?!

djglover
Don't bother asking. You probably know the answer, either your face don't fit or the other person has much more potential than you.

My advice is pul your socks up, put up and shut up

I'm amazed that so many people subscribe this "put up and shut up" mind set. What a bunch of whipping boys.

no kick up a huge fuss argue about how your line manager hates you and stitched you up and you know all this. Do this simply to improve your career prospects I cant see why it wont work

No one is defending what happened but do that which causes least harm to you and that is to do nothing.
Be angry but let it go and move on you will not achieve what you want by asking for scores etc

Junkyard

no kick up a huge fuss argue about how your line manager hates you and stitched you up and you know all this. Do this simply to improve your career prospects I cant see why it wont work

Well he's not exactly flavour of the month, and his comments to me imo show a premeditated determination to obscure my path, surely that can't sit well with his superiors?

You know they aren't going to give you the job?

If its that big a deal then you've only got one option. Resign and find something else.

It will be your word against them unless0 you find a smoking gun

they can easily defend it by saying you are unhappy as you did not get the job and saying you are just blaming me and see I told you I was correct about them etc depending on what was said

You are highly unlikely to get the outcome you wish or prove it even though you may well be right
it will more than likely harm you within the organsaition but if you wish to pursue the issue with their superior and use the formal complaints procedure then I wish you luck.

f888ed your career? I doubt it, though you might, if you don't move on.

What makes you think you were screwed over? You applied for a new job and you didn't get it, someone else did. Sorry but there is nothing in your OP to suggest that the process or outcome was unfair in any way.

But, I would expect that any reasonable employer to provide you with open honest and constructive feedback as to your interview or test performance etc etc.

When you say the successful applicant was less qualified than you, you need to ask yourself, precisely what you mean by that and why you say it. I am not trying so sound like and ass (admittedly not doing a very good job), but it is a simple expression that we all use and it has just struck me that I don't really know what it means.

It is your perception of the situation and not necessarily the truth, do you really understand what skills your employer was looking for?

In many companies and roles today so much more emphasis is being placed on core behavioural demonstrative competencies, than 10 or 15 years ago. Not true for all jobs, but true for many especially if no professional qualification is required (e.g. accountant, HR, procurement, plumber, welder etc etc).

It is often the softer skills that are most valued. Now I may be wrong but when people state that they were more qualified than person X then for me they may have completely missed the point.

But I would ask again for feedback.

EDIT. Whooops - I didn't see the OPs second post. Sorry OP 😳

He's not "flavour of the month" but he has enough power/authority/influence to persuade someone else to discriminate against you?

If possible, you need to move from this job/company

(or kill and eat your line manager)

Feedback what for?

If they do not want you they will have million of ways to justify their answers.

To be frank ... it is a waste of time.

On the other hand if you want to have some explosive fun then by all means kick up a big fuss ... shout, swear, scream, or point a Benneli M4 at your boss head and pull the trigger to (make sure the chamber is blank first) see him shite him/herself ... that would be fun.

🙂

Sorry. I'm really not coming across the way I'd like to. I am naturally disappointed that you feel you have been let down and I can understand your looking around for someone or something to blame. It's a natural reaction. However, I really don't see that there is anything you can reasonably do about it. It's certainly worth asking the interviewer/selector for some feedback. Just try to do it in a more humble fashion than the way you are coming across here. If you approach it with an open mind, you might learn something to your advantage.

Because they lied to me. And I invest my time and money in applying for the other post. And I obviously wanted the job and believe I been treated unfairly.

I am trying to gauge where I stand before going any further. I don't see why I should just roll over and say yeah, nice one guys, you f888ed my career....I'll just sit here and smile?!

They the company you work for PAID you a wage and are continuing to pay you a wage, for whaytevr reason you failed to get the promotion, and somebody else did, THATS LIFE, it happens a lot, from the above experience try to learn or move to another company, there are a lot of fantasticly clevber people currently out of a job, worrying about how to pay the bills,to actually buy food and keep their family together.

muddyfunster - Member

Well he's not exactly flavour of the month, and his comments to me imo show a premeditated determination to obscure my path, surely that can't sit well with his superiors?

If your livelihood is at stake are you allowed to rough him up the Kray brothers' style?

🙂

All you can do is bring a grievance against your boss for unfair treatment.

These get listened to, and fairly dealt with. HOWEVER, if it's not upheld your boss can bring one against you for trying to undermine him.

Ask for feedback. If you don't trust your boss ask HR for feedback.

Other than that accept that perhaps qualifications aren't everything and there's something you need to work on (or you have bad breath, smell, look strange, etc.).

Life is only fair when it's going your way......

Right. Thanks guys, I genuinely appreciate you all taking the time to post on my thread and give me advice. I realise that most of you, by telling me to get on with it, are trying to do me a favour and that it would be the wise (or certainly cautious) thing to do. I am also painfully aware that I should bite my tongue, however. If you could imagine for a minute ( buy into my delusion if you must) that I have been wronged.

I can't go into specifics on here but imagine if you will the role was for a personal trainer, which for the sake of the analogy I have been for ten years, and the person chosen is a 30 stone morbidly obese person who is housebound. Now, I'm using hyperbole but it is extremely black and white. It is, also, for clarity, not a job as a personal trainer. That's just my analogy. But imagine my frustration.

I will take on board your comments, and temper my actions. But I will take my opportunity to express my displeasure at the situation to my line managers head of department and hr as I will be speaking to them soon. I think some times in life you need to kick some ass, even if it means getting sh*t on your boot.

muddyfunster - Member
I will take on board your comments,[s] and temper my actions.[/s] But I will[s] take my opportunity to express my displeasure at the situation to my line managers head of department and hr as I will be speaking to them soon.[/s] completely ignore them

Druidh, in my situation I believe it's neccessary for me, and my collegues that someone speak up against this guy.

Seems as if most of us have wasted our time trying top point you in the right direction, sadly you fail to see the point of listening to our collective advice.

Do go to HR, YOUR BOSS AND ANYONE ELSE, AND SEE JUST HOW FAR YOU GET, YOU WILL PROBABLY BE BRANDED AS TROUBLE AND SLOWLY EASED OUT OF YOUR JOB.

Why not join a union, thats what they used to be for.

scaredypants - Member

or kill and eat your line manager

That's digusting.

Only eat his heart, that's how you gain his power!

I believe it's neccessary for me, and my collegues that someone speak up against this guy.

I doubt this is the situation but it may be

And I invest my time and money in applying for the other post. And I obviously wanted the job and believe I been treated unfairly

Speaking as an employer, not an employee, you need to get real. You went for a job and didnt get it, most likely because the other person was better, regardless of what you may think.

Get over it, don't undermine your boss since if you do and he has any power he'll cut you out. I would.

in my game, applying for jobs is just that, a game.

my senior manager expects me to apply for jobs, even if they are in places that would be impossible to move to or positions that i wont be successful for, due to other people having been acting in that position and knowing the jo/people inside out.
its all to do with 'learning to play the game'

this has been a new concept to me, i never applied for a job before that i either didnt want or didnt think i had a better than even chance of being successful.

and i would be frowned upon big style if i didnt ask for feedback when unsuccessful.

your reaction for not being successful is noted by senior managers.

is your knockback a spur to make you do better and prove to your bosses that they made a mistake by not promoting you or a kick in the teeth, where you dont get back up therby justifying their decision that you are not the person for the job.

my 2p worth.

edit - my advice is that you ARE entitled to feedback and you should listen carefully to the feedback and make the changes necessary to enable you to be successful next time.. if you want to get the promotion.

project

Seems as if most of us have wasted our tim

No, not at all. Instead of going off like semtex I'll try and play the company game. There's obviously a balance to be struck here.

I might not get the satisfaction that I seek, but I'll end up out on my ear just as quickly if I feel I'm trapped, mistreated and can't work as I need to.

Until you become your own boss the people above you are always bunch of genuine tossers. Yes, they are and yes you know who you are. Tossers!

But once you become your own boss you ARE the tosser. Yes, you are. But then you can be the tosser with loads of moneeeyyyyy!

muddyfunster, there is nothing wrong with your reaction as there are plenty of tossers in the world. We are all surrounded by tossers. We are tossers too to people below us.

😀

muddyfunster,

I am sorry that you did not get the job you wanted and felt you deserved. I have only one piece of advice to give, but judging from your last post you probably might not need it.

[b]Resist the temptation to rush whatever you may decide.[/b] You are still raw about this and that is not usually a state for making the correct decision. You don't have to play the company game, although that may turn out to be be the best policy at least in the short term. B[b]ut don't make this decision yet. There is a long weekend ahead. Take time to really think about what happened and talk to others about it. But don't burn your bridges just yet.[/b] That's never a good option but can easily happen in the emotion that follows such a disappointment.

Whatever you decide - good luck.

TH

It's certainly worth asking the interviewer/selector for some feedback. Just try to do it in a more humble fashion than the way you are coming across here.

That is the way to approach it. If you're going to "speak up" I'd 1) make sure you have some evidence over emotion 2) still do it as above.

If you've got 1000 employees your interviewer will hit the HR panic button and it'll get very formal very quickly. I've seen lots of candidates believe they're the number one option only to have the rug pulled from under them. Interviews and outcomes are based on more than your "qualifications"; even in the broadest sense. It's a hard pill to swallow.

Not really enough info here - which is why you're getting no sympathy. I've just read back through the thread, and all I'm clear about, is that you think your line manager blocked your promotion.

Why did he do that? He hates you? You've become indispensable to your department?

In my experience the whole promotion / redundancy thing is 100% personal and unprofessional and the HR department's main function seems to be to retrospectively put all the paper work in place to make it all seem impartial and professional. There's nothing more true than 'Life isn't fair'.

Thanks guys. This has been enlightening, even if only to pool others opinions.

user-removed - Member

Not really enough info here - which is why you're getting no sympathy. I've just read back through the thread, and all I'm clear about, is that you think your line manager blocked your promotion.

Why did he do that? He hates you? You've become indispensable to your department?

I cant be more specific on a public forum, but I believe that his arguement would be that I have become indispensable. But, additionally, he hates me. He seems to really get off on controlling peoples personal lives and has told me as much about junior staff. Now he's doing it to me because he can as a dominance thing. And he boasted that he could when I informed of my intention to apply for the vacancy.

I think that's unprofessional in the extreme.

Get out if possible. A manager like that is unlikely to change whatever you do. Change department, dust off your CV and start looking around. Smile knowingly at everything he says, safe in the knowledge that you've shifted the balance of power. Then piss in his shoes / coffee / petrol tank.

user-removed

Get out if possible. A manager like that is unlikely to change whatever you do. Change department, dust off your CV and start looking around. Smile knowingly at everything he says, safe in the knowledge that you've shifted the balance of power. Then piss in his shoes / coffee / petrol tank.

I was trying to get out!! The department I was trying to move to was completely different to where I am now and I'd never have to look at him again. I really like the company, and the industry that it's in, I just seem to be stuck in this guys personal hell. He's not letting me, or my peers leave, for the reasons outlined above and I feel, for fear that it would reflect badly on him if we all abandon his ship as it were. Anyway, food for thought.

I genuinely have looked at this situation in another light thanks to some sound advice. It's a grim indictment of work politics that you all feel, based on your experiences, that I should keep my head down or I'll get it blown off. Sad but true perhaps.

Thanks again to all the non snarky posters.

any company that allows a control freak like that have responsibility over others needs to take a close look at themselves. The end result will be worse for them for ignoring it as the good people leave, motivation, initiative and productivity fall.
I've never known anyone thrive under a control freak.
I wouldn't kick up a fuss, you don't have any power in this situation - the hierarchy is against you.
I would just find a better job in another company.
If you have become indispensable then presumably you do a good job, so be prepared to have this happen again... it's the curse of being decent and competent in corporate life IME

muddyfunster - Member
It's a grim indictment of work politics that you all feel, based on your experiences, that I should keep my head down or I'll get it blown off. Sad but true perhaps.

when ever i was asked to give feedback i was honest brutally so.. i reminded people of commitment of those that went the exra mile those that brought in the extra buck those that didnt back stab and importantly those that didnt pass off others ideas/ work as thier own.

and finally the simple fact that all the people i recruited were ladies, looking for lurve and FAF

druidh

I can't speak for anyone else replying, but that's not what I said at all. I'm sure that it's all very clear to you from where you are sitting, but to me - and based only on what you have actually typed into this thread - it truely looks like you are only having a whinge for having been passed over.

Well, I don't want to waste your time, and my time by going into extreme detail or yet more politics but trust me, I could very easily persuade you, were we stood face to face that I am not merely whinging and that I've genuinely been wronged.

For once, could you operate on the premis that this random internet stranger is actually telling the truth and that there is some meat on these bones of contention?

I think that you need to accept that interviewing candidates for a job is about more than just qualifications. Whilst you and even your employer may want it to be an objective process it rarely is. Emotions and subjectivity do come into it.

With regards your current manager you need to start building a case and collect evidence about his behaviour. Record his conversations with you to provide proof if required of the things he has said.

As you are in a large company I'm sure that you go through some form of appraisal system. Make sure that when you have yours you use the opportunity to spell out where you would like your career to be in 2 -3 years time. Assuming that your line manager/HR think your ambitions are reasonable you can ask them for support in progressing. Then it's out in the open that you want to be promoted/change roles. If your line manager thinks your indispensable then you can raise this diplomatically to show that your future in your current role is not set in stone and what are they going to do about replacing you.

Sometimes they just can't afford to lose you from your current position. I've seen it many a time and arguing and kicking up a fuss looks bad, except in some cases where resignation at short notice is given, where they end up looking at having to train up two guys, and then they may give you a pay rise and a fancy title with promises for the future. In this fiscal environment though, they may weigh up replacing you with a better, less paid employee, or just removing your post altogether.

Many more companies than we'd care to admit keep managers in place that the employees hate, as it's just the way things were done in the old days. But back then, when managers had worked their way up, they could do everyones jobs. Now we have managers coming in with theoretical knowledge without total employee handling skills and the place turns to crap for a while, before things turn round, but not before the best, long term staff have left leaving you with large scale employee problems and lack of corporate identity and dissolves trust.

I'd recommend closing up personal behaviour, no whingeing openly, starting to tick the boxes where corporate are seeing your workload and looking at alternative ways out of your department, even downwards if necessary. If you're not unionised and you can't get your entire department turning against your manager then you're on your own in a cut throat employment environment.

The OP's best way of moving forwards would be to leave the company for another job. He's clearly not going to be allowed to progress by his manager.
Unless he can provide documented evidence and impartial witness proof that his manager is pulling strings, he's got no way of proving anything. Even if he makes an official complaint, I suspect HR would just try and sweep it under the carpet and ultimately his card will be marked as a troublemaker.
Whatever he does at his current company, I suspect he's moving no-where whilst his current manager remains.
So either play the long game, gather evidence to screw over the manager or leave. Me I'd try and do both, but with leaving taking priority, otherwise you'll just end up resentful and bitter.

Even if you're 100% correct then as others have said you really can't do anything about it other than leave, without risking further damaging your career anyway. It sucks but it's reality.

I had a vaguely similar situation myself, applied for a junior manager role I thought I was a shoe-in for (most technically experienced and it was relating to clients I already supported and knew inside out). In the end the role went to someone else who happened to be mates with the person that made the decision. I was pissed, asked for constructive feedback etc., I even got the interview scorecards for both of us (he beat me by 1 point in a total score of 90-odd, not exactly allaying my suspicions). In the end I just had to accept it and actually reported into the other guy just to wind me up some more :p Anyway we got on fine, a similar post came up a few months later which I got and it actually worked out as a more exciting role (supporting clients with the latest tech rather than 10 year old stuff).

Not saying everything will work out for you - my line manager wasn't a dick for starters but you still have my plan B which is to work the bare minimum whilst looking for another job and move on as soon as you can. You could try raising a grievance against your line manager but without evidence and others making similar complaints I doubt it will accomplish anything other than making him even more of a PITA

Seems to me that:

a) He can clearly demonstrate your value and the impact your leaving would have on his team, or
b) His management chain think highly enough of him to be able to block your move to another department, or
c) Both of the above

Either way, all the time he is your manager you won't be going anywhere internally without his help (wanted or not). Your options as I see them are:

1) Find another job and leave the company
2) Stay where you are and accept the situation

I've worked for SMEs and very large corporates, in a very large corporate you might get away with making a fuss and going the HR route. I don't think you would in a SME with about 1000 employees.

As other have noted it is a game of sorts and as distasteful as it may be if you want to progress you have to take part.

But I will take my opportunity to express my displeasure at the situation to my line managers head of department and hr

I don't know about you, but unless you can prove it, all this does is mark you as a trouble maker. If you think they'll believe you or have significant "personal credit" to cash in it might be worth a punt but if it can be shut down by the boss denying it, think VERY carefully. Be prepared to have leave if it all goes sour as people have long memories and jumping your manager and going to HR is something that gets remembered.

"I think that's unprofessional in the extreme."

While I sympathise with you at being managed by numpties and idiots, there's no legal obligation on managers not to be unprofessional, thick, pigheaded, prejudiced, showoff, discriminatory, powertripping tossers unless their reason for being that way falls within a very narrow (but common) band of illegal discriminatory criteria: sex, race, religion etc etc.

Well, I don't want to waste your time, and my time by going into extreme detail or yet more politics but trust me, I could very easily persuade you, were we stood face to face that I am not merely whinging and that I've genuinely been wronged.

For once, could you operate on the premis that this random internet stranger is actually telling the truth and that there is some meat on these bones of contention?

TBH, if you come across at work the way you do on this thread then it could be a clash of personalities where you are the one with the bigger problem

Well I am going to speak more openly and bluntly on an internet forum than in an office. I'll just say again, thanks to the guys who've given me advice. It has been heeded and it has been a useful insight for me.

It's definately helped me to see the potential outcomes for my options.