Am I digging myself a hole? Possible legal content!...

Personally I’d draw a cock & balls on each scanned page and tell them to do one, which is probably why I’m not in your position

So – basically – is there a verbal contract for things that have only been discussed, but no details have been finalised – ie, price, quantity of files, nature of files? The basic conversation was ‘yes, it could be done’.

Charge an arm, leg & torso then

I suspect you've appeased him more than most people would already.

The legal side all sounds a bit tenuous on his part but what do I know?

I think the legal precedence you need to refer to is Arkell versus Pressdram.

Tell him to do one.

Verbal contracts aren't worth the paper they're written on.

For there to be a contract there needs to be offer, acceptance and consideration. I can't see how you have made an offer and agreed a consideration from your description

so I give in for an easy life

Which was your first mistake

Next time they are looking for something, politely decline and refuse to do business with them again.
You'll probably get a mouthful, hoping you will cave in again, but if you do you're going to be in this cycle forever.

Basically any contract is only as good as the paper its written on....

Personally I’d draw a cock & balls on each scanned page and tell them to do one

Which is what i'd be doing, if anything was threatened.

Verbal contracts are not worth the paper they're not written on.

Tell him to bring his contract in and you'll create a PDF of it for him.

IANAL.

(Gah, beaten to the punch)

Customer has said in an email they’d collect file 4pm on Friday wether I’d managed it or not.

Game, set and match I’d have thought?

Just looking it up a bit more - they CAN be legally binding but:

"For a verbal agreement to be legally binding there are certain elements which need to be satisfied. These are:

Offer and Acceptance: an offer is made which is accepted by another party; 

Consideration: there must be something of value exchanged for a promise (this does not always have to be money);

Intention: there must be an intention by the parties to make a legally binding agreement; and

Capacity: the parties must have legal capacity to enter into the contract" *

If you had no intention to make a legally binding agreement, I think your customer can swivel.

* From https://www.monarchsolicitors.com/guides-articles/when-are-verbal-agreements-legally-binding/ via Google

Even if you did another job I’d expect you to have quoted with a massive amount of **** tax added.

Thanks for making me laugh - cock and balls watermark it is from now on!! 😀

And I think my hourly rate needs adjusting to cope with the cost of living crisis.

What’s reasonable for a colouring-in professional!?

Personally I’d draw scan a cock & balls on each scanned page and tell them to do one

somafunk has it 😉

I’d ask him to produce proof of the verbal contract and then tell him to **** off when he can’t. That or death by a thousand paper cuts!

I think the legal precedence you need to refer to is Arkell versus Pressdram.

Print this on A4 for him. 🙂

Obviously, when he initially gave you his bluster and bullshit about 'verbal contracts', you gave in, and he is clearly hoping you'll fold (geddit) under a similar threat.

You can either have a giggle, then give it no further consideration, or close your business and relocate to another country, just to be on the safe side. 🙂

Or subtly rebrand all his pages with a fresh logo, as per Somafunk, in a David Thorne stylee.

What an arse. Tell him to do one!

Op, you've had your Crimea moment with this guy.

Is he called Putin by the way?

IANAL2 but.... Did anyone overhear or witness the verbal contract?

If its a "no" then its a death spiral of you said, I said, yes you did, no I didn't... plus, the email as mentioned probably will close everything off.

C&B Watermark... oh yes...

IANAL2 but…. Did anyone overhear or witness the verbal contract?

No - there’s only me and the office dog! And he’ll get no more Bonios if he woofs anything different!

And phone calls aren’t recorded (at least at my end anyway!).

It’s really spoilt my week. I can’t recall the last time I had a fallout with a customer.

I’m interested to know which court he’s going to take you to for this breach of contract. I can imagine that judges would have loads of patience for this kind of crap

Tell him to bring his contract in and you’ll create a PDF of it for him.

😂😂

And phone calls aren’t recorded (at least at my end anyway!).

I bet they were at his end.

Sounds like a right bell end though

Just re-read your op again and

Last Weds customer emails me saying they need hundreds of pages scanning and putting into one PDF for Friday. I told customer this couldn’t be done as I had too much work on. Customer then asks if I could do part of it which I reluctantly agree to. 24hrs later customer brings the file in and again it’s more than I expected and more complicated and bought in 24hrs after our emails. Customer has said in an email they’d collect file 4pm on Friday wether I’d managed it or not. Friday lunch I email to say customer had better collect folder as I’ve not even had chance to look at it.

Does this ^^^ count as a verbal agreement?

If all this is in an email thread then it sounds like you have been clear and given caveats plus the "collect ready or not" statement is a tacit acknowledgement it may not be complete. Game over. Prepare for the google review slagging off you are likely to get but he doesn't sound like the kind of customer you need!

what does his imaginary contract stipulate.

That he must turn up late with excess work and be an arse to you?  as above Arkell versus Pressdram

You haven't charged the customer so I can't see how he can take it further?

Just decline to do any more for him and give him contact details of another business willing to do the work.

He sounds a real life cockchops

The file he bought in last week is now all done, complete and done FOC (Today). And I put in an email yesterday that I was agreeing to do this file and this file alone. And no other work.

It’s when they came to pick up file and pay that I said I didn’t want any money off them and I didn’t want to do any more work for them, just take the files and go. They then started on about a conversation we had 3 weeks ago and that I had verbal contract to do that work.

Tell your ex-customer that your lawyer has advised there is no contractual relationship and '...threatening breach of verbal contract and all sorts of other accusations' could be construed as harassment as they are clearly intended to cause distress which opens the possibility of legal action.
In addition, your lawyer has advised that any unfounded critical reviews or communications could also lead to legal action.

If he is threatening you then don't deal with him.nhe is trying to bully you. Tell him that you don't deal with people threatening you. Final answer. Do not engage. He will try to engage. Just repeat and ask him to leave / hang up but tell him you are going to hang up. If you want record the conversation.

Never threaten people. You do or you do not. He is trying it on.

Edit: he is trying it in and unfortunately he has got what he wanted and for free.

In the same vein as Arkell v Pressdram...your lawyers are Sue, Grabbit and Runne.

You have given them FOC so the case should be closed.
You have been reasonable. Reasonable is the key.
However, if they continue to harass you then they have no legs to stand on even with reference to the 3 weeks conversation you had.
Next time you should charge them 24 hr no sleep special price and the price should factor in nuclear disaster and world doom.

A reminder - "Intention: there must be an intention by the parties to make a legally binding agreement". If one party did not intend to enter into a legally binding agreement (and I'm going to guess you did not), it ain't a legally binding agreement no matter how much he wants it to be. 🙂

A reminder – “Intention: there must be an intention by the parties to make a legally binding agreement”. If one party did not intend to enter into a legally binding agreement (and I’m going to guess you did not), it ain’t a legally binding agreement no matter how much he wants it to be. 🙂

Also if I can recall you should not be pressured into agreement.

Technically, a verbal contract can be legally binding under certain circumstances. "You said you'd do some work for me" is not one of those circumstances. And of course, proving something that was said is tricky.

You've gone above and beyond, I'd just respond from here either by ignoring him or saying "no" to anything he comes out with. "You said you'd do this!" no I didn't. "You're in breach of contract!" no I'm not.

Should've sold him a flatbed scanner.

Aye, give him a copy of that email if he appears again and then tell them to do one. You don't have to take their work on if you don't want it, sounds like they've burnt their bridges with you

Arkell v pressdram is the legal precedent you need

They're a bully, tell them to go elsewhere

when i were a lad for a legally binding contract you needed offer, acceptable and consideration. the consideration.

basically, one person makes an offer that the other accepts and a price is agreed for the work.

i’m not sure if the price he’s paid in the past would be considered the agreed acceptance for a future contract.

customer sounds like an arse. you have my sympathy.

Armchair lawyers know F all. TBH I'd just say I don't like your attitude and I get to choose which clients I work for. You are unreasonable. TTFN !

Just offer him a written contract for the work, with an extra zero or two on your usual price. Either he spots it and refuses, or else he misses it. Seems like a win both ways.

Armchair lawyers know F all.

Back when I used to have to deal with the Great Unwashed on a daily basis, the biggest shibboleth that they didn't even remotely understand the first thing about their legal position was the phrase "I know my rights!"

I know your rights dickhead, I made a point of finding out what your rights were after hearing that phrase daily, and I'm afraid you don't know shit. (I paraphrased)

Extra zero or 2? Nah this deserves an arsehole tax of at least 3 extra zeros

So not only did you cave to meaningless and most likely empty legal threats you also did the work for free? Have you lost your mind? Have you always been a doormat? Honestly I couldn't believe what I was reading.

The only two words that should have been said start with an F and end in off.

You should read the internet is a playground by David Thorne - mainly for some tips on how to deal with cretins like this. Or just read this from his site; https://27bslash6.com/p2p2.html

Classic scope creep. Get it in writing exactly their requirements (quantities etc) then work to this.
Hire a bouncer for the day.

Yeah sorry OP, you need to seriously consider how you define ‘easy life’. Working for free for unreasonable people is definitely not it. Do what Caher says on scope definition. You know your business so you know how to define the ‘deliverables’ and where you can negotiate / discount / give away / charge a premium in order to motivate people to spend more, bring more work or be more profitable.

Thanks for your thoughts - I've been in this trade 35 years so I know how to do my job and how to cost things. I'm not in it to maximise profits and 'deliverables'. I come in, do my job to the best of my ability and go home.

Sometimes I am too soft though and try and please too many people. But just today I've turned 4 people away who 'urgently' needed work for tomorrow. I need a magic time tree! 🙂

I've had no further correspondence from my customer so far, but they'll no doubt be bashing away at their keyboard this weekend.

If he really wants to play verbal contract only do what was agreed, the extra pages are outside the contract.

You can choose not to do them or apply a special rate for uncontracted work

** Oops, should read page 2...

Yes you can have a verbal contract, no he's not going to be able to prove it. You can accidently make a contract through email correspondence which is more likely to happen these days and of course is easier to demonstrate.

Either way though if it was me I wouldn't waste any more time on it, you're not going to end up in the Hague.

Am I digging myself a hole?

Yes.

Possible legal content!…

No. No it's not.

Yeah.. Assuming you did have a verbal contact.. If it ended up in court it would be a he said/she said argument so it wouldn't get that far, you could have the case thrown out on that basis alone.

But it sounds like even if you did have a viable verbal contract, additional pages or proof reading or whatever it it you do would technically be a breach of said contract.

You've given this person more than enough good will. If I've read correctly you didn't even charge him for the last batch of work?

He'd just get laughed out of court if it even got that far.. As I suggested you could have the case thrown out for no basis/abuse of process before it even got to a hearing.

Just don't deal with him any more. Tell him to file a case against you and then slam the door /phone in his face... I'd wager you'd never hear from him again.

From what you have said OP the worst he is likely to do is post some dodgy reviews about your business. That would not be pleasant but, given you seem to have more work than you can cope with at the moment, would they have any impact?

It might be worth putting something in place to record calls and maybe even CCTV in your premises so that you have a record of any conversations if this chancer calls or visits you again but I would not spend much doing so.

Do you know owners of similar businesses in your area? - if yes it might be worth warning them about how this guy behaves.

Can we be clear here. When the armchair lawyers amongst us are referring to Arkell vs Pressdram I take it we’re referring to the reply from Pressdram to Arkell? The advice to the op being to tell his (ex) customer to 🦊trot off.

In our work we had to have training due to the issue of verbal agreements, but as others say, there is no explicit offer and acceptance, and there is no witness, it's just another idiot trying to scare you into doing what they want, thinking of this, i've not heard the term 'without prejudice or commitment' at a meeting in ages now 😂

If you told him it was FOC to his face only, I’d play him at his own game and now send an invoice.

After payment time has elapsed go through the small claims court. If he was going to go legal he would have done it by now, he’s just bluffing.

Back when I used to have to deal with the Great Unwashed on a daily basis and they claimed they 'knew their rights', I frequently had to remind them they were ignorant of their responsibilities.

So not only did you cave to meaningless and most likely empty legal threats you also did the work for free? Have you lost your mind? Have you always been a doormat? Honestly I couldn’t believe what I was reading

This.

And wtf are you now sending him emails? The last thing you should be doing is giving this kipper ammunition. The more you write ( email) the more opportunities you have to hand him your arse on a plate.
Stop emailing him. Just tell him you are doing no more work for him.

Should be easy enough to supply a "quote" based on what you've been told and make it punitive beyond that. Eg £100 for 100pages from a single document scanned and converted to PDF. Any pages/documents will be charged at £10 per page.

You should read the internet is a playground by David Thorne – mainly for some tips on how to deal with cretins like this. Or just read this from his site;> https://27bslash6.com/p2p2.html

Absolutely. Brilliant.

Thank you 😃