The tenant wants to get the new future fibre service that is being rolled out in south lakes.
To get it he says that the BT equipment needs to be removed. I’d prefer they didn’t touch it, but happy for the new service to be installed.
Am I being unreasonable? Any practical reason this isn’t possible?
Am I being unreasonable? Any practical reason this isn’t possible?
Yes. Full fibre requires the old to be removed as it’s no longer needed.
Sounds like nonsense to me. Assuming you have DSL currently it's a wholly different system, you don't need to remove your TV aerial to get Sky.
I'd ask exactly what they propose needs removing and why, "equipment" could mean anything.
yeah, sounds like a load of bollox from my experience. We've got a landline coming in from a pole over the road. The Fibre comes in from the same pole, tied to the house at a different point, comes into the house via a different hole in a different wall, attaches to a different bit of kit. We had both services running at once before the old one was turned off.
Yes. Full fibre requires the old to be removed as it’s no longer needed.
You're correct that it's no longer needed, but it does not need to be removed.
it might be that he's staying with BT and upgrading the package, and BT say they want the old router back. Which sounds pretty standard.
You’re correct that it’s no longer needed, but it does not need to be removed.
No point in keeping it though as voice lines are also going digital. Why would keep the cable and box coming into the house and on the inside.
We've got Hyperoptic at home (which is flippin' awesome, FWIW!) but we've still got a BT wire coming into the house connected to a box with a socket on the wall. It just doesn't do anything any more.
As others have said, there's no reason the old wire and box should need removing, but BT might ask for their old router (and phone handset?) back if the tenant is ending the contract with them.
voice lines are also going digital
Following the storms last year where it turned out the telecomms companies had little power backup for their equipment, there’s a lot of push back against this (and I believe a review).
Fine if you’re in a well served town or city.
it might be that he’s staying with BT and upgrading the package, and BT say they want the old router back.
the line to the house presumable belongs to, is the responsibility of, and is maintained by BT I’d assume. So if a new system is being installed and being paid for by the customer it seems BT would be in their rights to take away anything that isn’t being paid for.
The tenant is the customer not the landlord. Unless you’re offering to pay BT to maintain the legacy connection it’s not really any of your business.
The tenant is the customer not the landlord. Unless you’re offering to pay BT to maintain the legacy connection it’s not really any of your business.
Not quite that simple. The landlord needs to give permission for it to be installed.
Oh and the line is Open Reach not BT.
Who's paying for the existing connection?
What “equipment” are we actually talking about here? When we got ours installed they changed the socket to a different one, it wasn’t a dramatic change
I think 99% of future tenants would favour much faster broadband than the slim chance they’ll use a landline.
Whack the faster system in at tenants expense - win, win surely? Can’t really see why you want to hang on to the old tech.
We’ve not phoned anyone of our landline for 6 months.
Following the storms last year where it turned out the telecomms companies had little power backup for their equipment, there’s a lot of push back against this (and I believe a review).
Fine if you’re in a well served town or city.
The issue was that if you have fiber then if your power goes then so does your landline. On the older copper lines the phones were powered by the line itself.
So if you have fiber then you also need a UPS to make sure you at least have the line and router working in the event of a power cut so you can VoIP.
We’ve not phoned anyone of our landline for 6 months.
We've not a phone plugged into a landline socket for 6 years, it's only there for the broadband.
Yes.
The issue was that if you have fiber then if your power goes then so does your landline. On the older copper lines the phones were powered by the line itself.
So if you have fiber then you also need a UPS to make sure you at least have the line and router working in the event of a power cut so you can VoIP.
If only someone would invent a mobile phone that used some sort of wireless technology, then gave one to pretty much everyone in the country whose age was in double figures.
We’ve not a phone plugged into a landline socket for 6 years, it’s only there for the broadband.
Yep. 5 years without plugging in a handset.
No need with mobiles, plus completely inundated with spam calls - three or more a night, compared to maybe three genuine incoming calls a week...and two of them were the mother in law.
If only someone would invent a mobile phone that used some sort of wireless technology, then gave one to pretty much everyone in the country whose age was in double figures.
Yeah and hopefully have masts with backup generators that last more than a few hours.
If only someone would invent a mobile phone that used some sort of wireless technology, then gave one to pretty much everyone in the country whose age was in double figures.
I assume you must live somewhere in affected by the storms....
Our fibre cabinet and the phone mast lost power most of January. - as did several others across the region.
Didn't really give two hoots tbh but it does somewhat leave a gaping hole in your plan
By removing the copper kit your ensuring that future tennents are tied to fibre. . . And currently that means more cost to them.
No need for the old copper Wire & socket to be removed, if its still in good nick.takes away choice. Should only be removed if asked to be removed by homeowner.Sometimes the old copper d/w is used to draw the new Fibre line pole to property, ok if agreed to be removed,sometimes done by lazy engineers,and a lot of sub contractors without permission.
Presumably you have storm-proof telegraph poles?
I take your point(s), but you're describing pretty atypical scenarios here. Paying ~£20/month line rental for something which serves no purpose other than to act as a contingency against catastrophic failure is a madness unless you have specific reason to do so. I haven't had a working landline in like a decade, and DSL aside I likely haven't needed one in about 30 years.
If I lost all Internet connectivity AND all mobile connectivity then I'd likely have larger problems than the phone system, and if the solution to this disaster is 'landline' then I could just pop next door and go "hey, can I use your phone?"
As above everyone will lose 'landlines' in the next 2 years. We've just swapped broadband from Sky to Plusnet but kept the landline, could have gone with BY but would lost the landline, you get an adaptor to use existing phones with new setup. Only reason we didn't go to BT was the extra £5 per month.
Also when was the last time you needed to make an emergency call in a power cut, I certainly haven't in the last 35 years.
I don't get a mobile signal inside my house, so keep my old analogue phone as a back up in case of emergencies. My new house phone is VOIP. When I was involved with deploying new VOIP phones to colleges and departments at a big University it was standard practice to keep a couple of analogue emergency phone lines (such as in the porters lodge).
I hope you’ve got some old tech to use with your copper lines!? Your fandangoed cordless phone won’t be working without power to the base unit! 😀
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As above everyone will lose ‘landlines’ in the next 2 years
Oh. Will my fax machine still work?
I hope you’ve got some old tech to use with your copper lines!? Your fandangoed cordless phone won’t be working without power to the base unit! 😀
10kwh of battery do it ?
A 3kw generator ?
Powers much easier to sort out than the communication metric.
a-typical
A future tennent not wanting to pay the extra for fibre ?
10kwh of battery do it ?
A 3kw generator ?
Powers much easier to sort out than the communication metric.
...you got a prepper basement too!? 🙂
If the tenant is paying the bill and they wont be knocking massive holes in walls i don't get why you would care. To be honest if you was my landlord I wouldn't even have told I would have just done it - not once have I ever told a landlord about anything bills related. Yes its your house but its their home they live there and it needs to fit their needs.
you got a prepper basement too!? 🙂
No I just live somewhere where power cuts are reasonably frequent and the above solutions are far more palatable than living with a mass of people.
Having just been through the migration to fibre myself, a stipulation of ordering was that they will remove the copper connection. This is because they might choose to use the old copper to pull the new fibre from a pole or through a duct. So it's not really up to the customer what they do on installation day.
Add it happens, in my situation, they didn't bother removing the old copper so both stayed.
But, in answer to your qtn, are you being unreasonable in insisting they keep the copper... Yes. They may have no choice, and if you block them upgrading you are consigning your rental business to the dark ages.
No need for the old copper Wire & socket to be removed, if its still in good <span class="skimlinks-unlinked">nick.takes</span> away choice
The choice is being removed in a few years anyway.
Another with a landline and no phone plugged into for years.
Having just been through the migration to fibre myself, a stipulation of ordering was that they will remove the copper connection. This is because they might choose to use the old copper to pull the new fibre from a pole or through a duct.
Unless the new provider is BT I expect Openreach might have something to say about that. It's not theirs to pull up.
Ive got my landline
We've not had a landline for 7 years. In the last house it was only used by the mother in law to call. She now uses a mobile.
But why do fisher price still put the dial in the toy. I'm approaching 42 and only have vague memories of using a phone like that at my grannies.
I’ve kept my landline, CB radio, telegraph, pigeon and have a fire on the go just in case smoke signals are needed.
Yes, I’d say you’re being unreasonable.
Unless the new provider is BT I expect Openreach might have something to say about that. It’s not theirs to pull up.
It will be Open Retch or one of their contractors that fits the new fibre if it's going into their network. If it's one of the separate networks then they shouldn't be touching the competitors kit.
We have Sky fibre interwotsits, which was installed by Openreach as it’s rebadged Full Fibre. I wasn’t given the choice of keeping the old wire and BT Master box, it all came down and was replaced by the fibre equivalent, and my land line plugged back in, though I seem to have lost my listing in the phone book now.
As for landlord/tenant, their home, their choice. Permission could be withheld only if it were reasonable, and it isn’t. Copper is done, you might as well try to keep round Rediffusion selectors or a Squarial on the roof for BSB.
I work for O/R , the 2years blah about copper not been supported is rot, I live in a fibre area ( supposed to be no new copper provides from 07/22 ) guess what!! Lots of people dont want or are not interested in fibre.
Lots of companys/institutions use powerfail copper back up telemetry lines, most lifts have a power fail copper line for example
Will keep me busy weaving copper wires until I retire.
ps the O/R network has been opened up for other companys to use, they are very carefull and dont damage the excisting network at all 🤣
Openreach took my copper when they installed fibre. Doesn't seem like it's something you or your tenant have much control over 🤷
Openreach took my copper when they installed fibre.
...and left it when they did mine!!
It's up to the position of the original pole ECT is it safe to climb has the engineer got 7 more jobs on yadda yadda. It's supposed to be removed around by me and mostly is
Thanks all just to clarify
1. My understanding, which may need validating, is that the new install is nothing to do with BT or Open Reach - like Virgin Cable that we have. Completely separate system. Like I say I probably need to check that.
2. I'm happy for them to install and use what they want, including drilling though walls etc.
3. I just don't want the old BT equipment removed (cable cut, master socket etc.) unless there is a good reason to do so - and the only reasons I'm hearing from them is 'reasons'.
I need to work on 1.
1) Are you now talking cable? If not then it’s Open Reach
2) Cool
3) I’m waiting on them finalising the connection in my street, the poles have had the fibre wired up just needs connected the cabinet. When I’ve looked at deals all describe the old socket being removed as it’s no longer needed.
If it's like city fiber (they independently provide round my way) then I believe it's a separate "exchange," to open reach not that fiber uses one. They supply Vodafone fiber to the property only. if you choose BT,sky ECT it's a new line from open reach.
I see propertys with both city fiber and openreach fttp installed some even have the copper left in.
If your worried openreach won't come back and re install if your tennents or new ones want to change back don't be they will it's a cut throat industry full of greedy piggy's
If the new order is from a provider other than Virgin or Openreach, it's very likely they are renting pole and duct space from Openreach for their own wires, and although I heard it was being considered, they are not allowed to recover BT or Openreach equipment (yet). If it needs removing to facilitate the install, they have to request Openreach to do that part of the work.
The reason they want to remove the network is normally due to capacity. You can't just double the number of wires on poles and in ducts over the next decade, poles become overloaded and ducts get congested. It's also much easier to pull the fibre cable in on the back of the copper, it reduces the likelihood of needing to dig up a pavement or cut loads of branches from your neighbours tree.
There is no benefit keeping the copper. There will be a reconnection charge whether it's in situ or needs reinstalling. A lot of exchange areas are under stop-sell status, meaning where fibre is available, the main providers will not sell a new legacy copper service.
If it's left in situ, after the fibre switch over is complete, you'd need a massive recovery program as people decided they didn't want all this old rubbish on/in their houses. That's a massive own goal as a business.
If it’s left in situ, after the fibre switch over is complete, you’d need a massive recovery program as people decided they didn’t want all this old rubbish on/in their houses.
Like the cable relay wires and boxes that have been stuck to my house and the surrounding properties doing nothing for the past 30 odd years?
Also when was the last time you needed to make an emergency call in a power cut, I certainly haven’t in the last 35 years.
Well you have me convinced. We should probably do away with the fire service and coastguard whilst we're at it, I've never needed those either.
Like the cable relay wires and boxes that have been stuck to my house and the surrounding properties doing nothing for the past 30 odd years?
Exactly. If the company was still operating you'd be able too ask them to remove it. In areas where PIA providers have put their own overhead wires to customers, you'll notice they now have two wires spanning from the pole and two lots of cables run on they house exterior.
Weve been told no more ADSL lines from the end of this year and ADSL switch off by the end of 2025. It doesnt mean the copper is being ripped out but does mean the equipment in the exchange will be turned off. The new service SEGOE I think is VDSL. Any traditional copper based landline services are going even if the copper line is not. Someone above also made a very good point, most domestic properties have wireless phones that require power for the base station to work so most of us have been in the situation of no power, no phone for a long time.
the BT equipment needs to be removed. I’d prefer they didn’t touch it
Why?
I just don’t want the old BT equipment removed
I think there's an industry-wide move towards removing the copper wire network as new installations are going in. It's happening, whether you want it or not. May as well get it done.
If only someone would invent a mobile phone that used some sort of wireless technology, then gave one to pretty much everyone in the country whose age was in double figures.
That's a great idea, now if only the masts enabled that wireless communication didn't also rely on the same electricity grid ......
My parents got stuck last winter only being able to make calls if they climbed up the hill to get a line of sight to the phone mast in the next valley (which isn't great when you're 70 and it's the kind of weather that results in power cuts). And not just a rural issue either, the masts at J11 on the M4 stop working every time there's a powercut too.
It's not really a complete reason to not go fiber, but that doesn't make it a non-issue.
I'm not saying it's a non-issue. I'm saying that it's approaching being a non-issue for most domestic installations.
It's going to cause murders in some areas of business. We have a lot of legacy equipment out there - PBX phone systems, MFDs (big copiers) - that have built-in phone lines as their only means of remote support. Burglar alarm monitoring, fire systems, many of these sorts of things require a POTS connection. We have printers which automatically fax us with toner reorders, far as I'm aware Fax Over IP is not a thing. And I don't know as anyone is seriously talking about this stuff.
But at home? Meh. I can count the number of power cuts I've experienced in adulthood which lasted longer than "oh, did we just have a power cut?" on the fingers of one hand, it's not the 1970s any more. I live in the middle of a small town, not somewhere where my nearest neighbour is miles away. I'm not in my 70s. And if a lot of that weren't the case and power cuts would be a showstopper then I'd get a UPS; if I lived in the sticks, a backup generator.
I'll bet many people on here arguing in favour of paying £20/month for a non-VoIP landline "just in case" don't even have a phone that would work with it if the power went.
Openreach left my copper line (although I promptly chopped it off as it went through a door frame I was replacing).
As said, they may well use it to pull through or support the new fibre, and you're not likely to be able to order a reactivation on an old copper line anyway. Be grateful you've got a tenant happy to deal with the disruption and appointments for fitting, just make sure they get the ONT installed where you want it to go.
Covid largely killed off any remaining fax at our customers, those that did need it moved over to the digital services like efax, and you can port numbers in to them these days too. Fax over IP definitely is a thing though, T38 has been around for a couple of decades.
Fax over IP definitely is a thing though, T38 has been around for a couple of decades.
Ah, OK, I didn't know that. Cheers. Fax isn't something I've had to deal with in at least 15 years.
1) Are you now talking cable? If not then it’s Open Reach
Not necessarily. I’m served by BT/OpenReach FTTP but also CityFibre FTTP. The latter have their own completely separate infrastructure and cables.
There are several others like CityFibre who don’t touch OpenReach infra.
FWIW when I signed up to BT FTTP, OpenReach just blew the fibre line down the existing duct and gave me a new box on the wall. All the existing BT master socket was left alone.
And if a lot of that weren’t the case and power cuts would be a showstopper then I’d get a UPS; if I lived in the sticks, a backup generator.
Are you some kind of prepper ? 😉
No I just live somewhere where power cuts are reasonably frequent and the above solutions are far more palatable than living with a mass of people.
sir obviously needs to stop messing, about and get a satellite phone
I'd like to apologize on behalf of my stupid phone changing fibre /fiber.
Glad I'm not at work.:)
While I don't use the landline because no one else does that I'd call or be called from, I prefer the quality compared to variable dodgy quality mobile signal and constantly asking other person to move to a better location, repeat themselves or be asked likewise.
Though parents discovered Skype thanks to Covid and that's way better on the audio than mobile voice, even on a phone. Video is another matter but it keeps them happy.
Also find my head getting warm with a mobile stuck to it for a long call. Landline and cordless phone is fine (noting, I do have a wired phone just in case, though god knows where it is).
it’s not the 1970s any more
Well, yes and no. There seem to be a few 70s revival activities going on 🤣
Speaking as a landlord o would say yes you are being unreasonable. Apart from anything else a happy tenant is more likely to look after the property and pay rent on time.
Your house but his home
But at home? Meh. I can count the number of power cuts I’ve experienced in adulthood which lasted longer than “oh, did we just have a power cut?” on the fingers of one hand, it’s not the 1970s any more. I live in the middle of a small town, not somewhere where my nearest neighbour is miles away. I’m not in my 70s. And if a lot of that weren’t the case and power cuts would be a showstopper then I’d get a UPS; if I lived in the sticks, a backup generator.
I live in a similarly small town and can probably count the months of the year where there hasn't been a power cut lasting several hours somewhere in town in one hand. Granted most folk have a mobile that will still work but that may not be true for all.
If you have the means and knowledge to run a UPS then more power to you, most folk in their 70's probably don't.
The early Openreach ONTs were chunky things that had battery backup - I think they still use them if a customer needs power-resilient phone service (medical monitoring, etc).
Most people I know in their 70s, my parents included, have mobiles though - and both the mobile and the masts have their own batteries to work without power for a while.
but also CityFibre FTTP. The latter have their own completely separate infrastructure and cables.
They have their own cables and do sometimes put up the odd pole or the last leg of duct from the pavement to your house, but they do use Openreach/BT ducts and poles as much as possible. It's a race against time for each business as there is not enough space for everyone, some areas have copper plus 3 fibre providers battling for space.
Yes. Full fibre requires the old to be removed as it’s no longer needed.
UNless the exchange doesn't support voice, in which case like me you will go from copper > Fibre briefly, before ending up with copper & fibre, and then a couple of years later when the exchange is upgraded defunct copper (Still there) and fibre. As hard as I tried they badgered me into submission to have that copper reinstalled too. I don't think I made a single call on it and probably only received a handful as it was installed badly and the line is horrible. Not that I care.
Yeah, that was a few years ago then. Things have moved on.
I live in a similarly small town and can probably count the months of the year where there hasn’t been a power cut lasting several hours somewhere in town in one hand.
🤷♂️ Do you live in all of those somewheres?
Granted most folk have a mobile that will still work but that may not be true for all.
Of course. I never said it was, I was generalising. There will always be exceptions.
If you have the means and knowledge to run a UPS then more power to you, most folk in their 70’s probably don’t.
A basic UPS is box with a plug at one end and a socket at the other, it requires about the same "means and knowledge" as a four-gang.
So it transpires that my initial assumptions were correct.
This install is nothing to do with OR/BT
After a quick call to the tennant, all is good. He can get the fibre into the house without touching the BT cable or equipment.
Lesson learned about the letting agent getting in the way with chinese whispers!
