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you sound like a good chap to work for. What industry are you in?
i wasn’t trying to belittle your generosity and I’m amazed by a lot of the response that seem to think you are some kind of arse for taking people to Milan.
crazyjenkins01
That being said, all those going should book Monday as leave.
What is it with people wanting to punish people! 😆 Why in the hell would you do that. Just give the guy the friday off. 😆
They’re going with the boss. Surely it’s up to him ?
If the weekend isnt work, then Monday is a normal work day. If they are travelling back from a non-work event (therefore in their own time) yet not having to book leave/are being paid for it, then the one left behind would surely be losing out??
Pffft! I got a Hero chocolate for a successful resuscitation last night. Beat that.
Was it stuck in the patient's throat?
Also, what flavour? If it's eclairs or caramel, you should file a complaint.
i wasn’t trying to belittle your generosity and I’m amazed by a lot of the response that seem to think you are some kind of arse for taking people to Milan.
I don't think anyone has suggested that. Its the treatment of the team member who being told to work after having the audacity to cite personal reasons for not giving up his weekend which is the issue. The contribution of said team member doesn't seem to be of value, because there is not an alternative being offered in sympathy.
My main concern (as a trade unionist) is fairness.
One member of staff not being treated the same, for what sounds like an unavoidable restriction, is the issue.
If the weekend isn't work/in work time, which sounds like the case, Monday is a normal work day for all staff and as such time not at work (travelling back from a free holiday) should be treated the same as having a day off to have a lay-in/take the kids out/go for a bike ride etc.
crazyjenkins01
Member
My main concern (as a trade unionist) is fairness.
One member of staff not being treated the same, for what sounds like an unavoidable restriction, is the issue.
If the weekend isn’t work/in work time, which sounds like the case, Monday is a normal work day for all staff and as such time not at work (travelling back from a free holiday) should be treated the same as having a day off to have a lay-in/take the kids out/go for a bike ride etc.
Madness! Ye balance things up by adding something positive, not taking something away.
That's kind of my point. Fairness.
Either add something to the last member of staff (a day off) or the others give up a day off. Each has its pros and cons, but then its fair.
If the other staff are travelling back from a non-work activity in work time and therefore being paid for it, and the boss/owner is happy with that (which seems John is) then expecting the last staff member to still work seems unfair. If the other staff are taking a days annual leave for travelling back, then expecting him/her to work is totally reasonable. The problem is, it sounds like whats being talked about is a mish-mash of both.
Unless I missed something @johndoh?
I don’t think anyone has suggested that. Its the treatment of the team member who being told to work after having the audacity to cite personal reasons for not giving up his weekend which is the issue.
Giving up his weekend? Or being given the opportunity to take part in an enjoyable trip?
Unless I missed something @johndoh?
To be honest I don't know anymore. I thought we were doing something nice (and the team seemed to think so last year, including this person) yet it seems we have screwed up and it has taken much more of my day, my business partner's day and our office manager's day than we'd expected.
We won't be doing this again next year - we'll just bung them £100 (with usual taxable deductions) in their December pay packet. I hope I don't offend anyone of different religious beliefs...
Unless I missed something
You did. It is by definition a work activity, as its being funded and organised by their employer. Whether its in working hours or not is irrelevant albeit the attending employees have chosen to give up their non work time to attend.
Monday's activities then are acceptable as deemed by their manager and upward, but the question of fairness remains.
"We won’t be doing this again next year – we’ll just bung them £100"
Sounds a much better idea, tbh. The only things your employees will never have issue with are being given time or money.
I'd take a hundred quid over losing my own weekend to attend some 'team building' jolly every time. As would most, I feel.
Edit: Not being dismissive of your gesture, John, But surely you can see that a weekend in Milan with colleagues in your free time is not for everyone.
young children, other family commitments, fear of flying, whatever?
The reasons are complicated and I would rather not go into them, but it’s none of the above and they attended last year.
Seems they've got a genuine reason, and would have liked to go, unlike some of the miserable grinches on this thread that want to clock 37 hours a week without speaking to anyone and waiting for their pension to kick in.
Did you try to gauge availability before organising?
As someone suggested - a day of phone and email answering (from home if the technology allows) while watching youtube/netflix; plus let them have a dinner with their partner on expenses. That way everyone is equally tired and hungover Tuesday morning.
Someone who doesnt want to engage in interaction with their colleagues is a fairly rubbish team member in most circumstances.
Johndoh,
Irrespective of what else, you have my respect for trying. Brilliant job fella.
Once again I despair at humanity and STW
I want to work for jondoh !!
Once again I despair at humanity and STW
I don't see why. OP's done a good thing for most of his employees and in the main received some good alternatives about how he should manage the one who can't make it.
You ask the questions on here and get a range of mixed opinions, some of which you don't like - we've all experienced that. Its how you disseminate that information and use it that really counts.
Once again I despair at humanity and STW
You know how at work there is always 'that person' the one that nobody really likes and always has to be a bellend about absolutely everything, well I think they've all replied in force on this topic 😉
It's impossible to please everyone in situations like this but it looks to me like you were just trying to do something nice for your staff.
If I ever had a question where I needed an opinion from a group of normal people theres no way in hell it would get asked on here 😂
Burn the witch!!
🧙
“We won’t be doing this again next year – we’ll just bung them £100”
Awaits the "Staff member being bullied for spannering next years Xmas euro piss up" thread.😉
Johndoh you have my sympathy, you sound like a top bloke. Hope you find a compromise that works for all.
It’s great what you’ve tried to do you can’t please everyone and that small little gesture to the one who couldn’t make it of another gift might have just sealed it but yes a bonus is much easier.
Once again I despair at humanity and STW
It would be a shit place if we all agreed. Also labelling it as team building day is what through people, simply calling it a paid weekend away would have been easier to understand.
Once again I despair at humanity and STW
Agreed. Possibly the thing to take is the variety of reasonable information you did get so you’re better informed
No one here knows the exact details so comments are to a level assumptive
I wish I worked for a firm like yours. The principal of idea and the engaged team (from what I understand) sounds like a breath of fresh air
Next year you’ll have a clearer stance on how to manage it 🙂
Team building, morale building, extra rewards etc I just don’t get any of it tbh. I prefer just to do my job and get paid, it’s why I’ve spent my whole life on price work or quoting. If someone doesn’t work hard enough they don’t earn enough and won’t be given anymore work. If you do the job right you’ll get more work, I don’t need to be told great job I just want the money. The reward for doing your job right is the money you earn, there’s nothing more needed.
As nice a gesture as it is taking folk away for a weekend I’d never give my weekend up for work unless it involved a lot of money and never to spend social time with employees 👍
Just to point out that I would never attend an event like this unless compulsory and being paid - and the 3 days becomes 2 weeks work if its compulsory as its 24/7 for the time away. 80 hours to be paid. Want me to attend. Pay me for it. You only get my time when I am being paid
I cannot think of anything worse workwise than giving up a weekend to do an event like this - thats my personal take
Work is work, my time is my time. the two do not mix ever
I work to live, I do not live to work
johndoh
Member
We won’t be doing this again next year – we’ll just bung them £100 (with usual taxable deductions) in their December pay packet. I hope I don’t offend anyone of different religious beliefs…
That's also mental, those type of trips aren't for everyone, but that doesn't mean you should still do them, just think you should have an alternative idea.
It's a good idea, defo don't give it up, just because of some piss taking on here...
It’s a good idea, defo don’t give it up, just because of some piss taking on here…
I read it as it was too much effort as it took too much time of 3 senior staff.
If I ever had a question where I needed an opinion from a group of normal people
TBF, I cannot envisage a scenario where I'd ever want an opinion from normal people. They're boring idiots, I'll take the opinions of weird and interesting people any day.
morale building ... I just don’t get any of it
The beatings will continue until morale improves?
It depends on the industry. I can understand if you are overstretched and underfunded frontline police, NHS, fire service etc busting your balls every shift, then being asked to attend unpaid "team building" would warrant a sharp rebuff.
However in johndoh's example I'm assuming private sector, relatively successful small/medium sized business, everyone's wages/bonus depends on the continued success of the business - such jollies are excellent management. It both rewards the team and generates cameraderie and is genuinely good fun.
I think the mutual incomprehension on this thread maybe down to this differing perspective.
People being people, you then you get the outliers who chuck a spanner in the works.
My sympathies johndoh. No good deed goes unpunished.
I have used STW for exactly this - when you have a situation you are not sure abut asking on here will get you a range of views from a range of people. You do have to be thick skinned but it is very good at getting to the crux of the issue and to seeing it from different directions
Facebook / your friends tends to be an echo chamber. this place most certainly is not
OP should have stuck this on the AIBU section of Mumsnet for a quick flaming. Would make any criticism on here look mild!
Just to point out that I would never attend an event like this unless compulsory and being paid – and the 3 days becomes 2 weeks work if its compulsory as its 24/7 for the time away. 80 hours to be paid. Want me to attend. Pay me for it. You only get my time when I am being paid
I cannot think of anything worse workwise than giving up a weekend to do an event like this – thats my personal take
Work is work, my time is my time. the two do not mix ever
I work to live, I do not live to work
My boss is a friend, we spend a lot of time together, we MTB together too. I find it deeply saddening you're in a job where you wouldn't want to spend time with the people you work with.
Whilst I'm not best mates with all of them, we get on well.
I get on with my colleagues. I even like some of them.
I have no need or desire to share my time away from work with them though. That’s what family and friends are for.
A work jolly in Milan or time off at home is not a tricky decision for me.
I’m not amazed that some people think I’m odd though.
EDIT: I should say, I’ve been on rides and evenings with them and it’s not been unpleasant. It just means I feel I haven’t left work and got away.
I can understand if you are overstretched and underfunded frontline police, NHS, fire service etc busting your balls every shift, then being asked to attend unpaid “team building” would warrant a sharp rebuff.
Loved ours last year we had a great day out in Edinburgh but it was made clear it was a social day, was great fun. We’re planning our next one for the beginning of next year but we pay for it ourselves.
Sorry, skipped from page 2 to page 7....
My take - it's like a Christmas party. It a voluntary thing most people think is nice to be at and go for the pleasure aspect. It happens out of hours and no one grumbles because it's a nice thing and you are not forced to go. The company put it on not because they think xmas is amazballs but because it is an attractive retention perk to many and a bonding experience which hopefully reduces the recruitment agency bill and increases the annual efficiency of the staff body. It's ultimately a canny move not an altruistic one.
Because of the employer benefits from the shindig you are prepared to donate a day of work to get the ramble back home. You are doing this because of the benefits to the company. If you are not on the trip you don't need to travel home so you have no need to miss out on valuable mouse clicking time.
However - given the the trip is about employee buy in and retention IF you want the keep the none attender and IF the reason is a bit sad (looking after a poorly relative or all manner of horrible shit people have to do at the weekends) I'd probably be having a quiet word and telling them to not bother coming in. If its just their normal weekend fun it too much fun to miss to come with you then no, they work the Monday like every other Monday.
To add - I think I would spend a weekend in Milan with my work colleagues with a heavy heart. It's the sort of thing that I would have signed up to two month prior and on the night before be kicking myself for being a dick and not saying I was painting my nails.
weeksy - its not sad at all from my point of view. I find it sad that people have such empty lives that this sort of thing appears to be something worthwhile. I have friends among my colleagues and even see some outside of work. However my time is my time to spend as I wish and I would never want to send a weekend with the people I work with. I have better things to do like having a life!
Its just a different outlook on life and understanding that my life is not my work. same as I will never and have never attended any sort of team building type stuff. Its loathsome to me
Neither is right or wrong - its just a different attitude and set of values
weeksy, I'm in the same boat as you mtb and holidaying (even at my own expense) with workmates, but there are a lot of deeply impersonal and antagonistic/adversarial workplace environments out there. Agree that state of affairs (rather than the individuals trapped within it) is saddening.
Did you try to gauge availability before organising
Yup - we tried various alternatives and this was the only weekend everyone could make (including the person in question). We booked flights and the hotel then they came back to us with the reason they couldn’t come (which, if true, they would have known about when we asked the question) so we gave their place to a student who comes in once a week. Subsequently they asked for a day’s holiday.
Please don't go down the hundred quids route. It reeks of lowest common denominatorism. £100 will not generate esprit de corps.
Subsequently they asked for a day’s holiday
I think if it is a reward weekend for everyone than I probably would have offered them a day off, unless, as it seems, this is a personal thing and you want to punish them by making them sit in an empty office as they bloody well should for not being grateful.
I totally get where you are coming from, but keep it simple. Reward everyone. If one of the team feels penalised I think the whole point has been lost.
Also, ignore the reasons given for non-attendance as you seem to be a little sceptical. Maybe they are just not telling you the real reason.
£100 will not generate esprit de corps.
I think that is the intention.
'Nah, no expensive holiday this year because someone ruined it last year by not coming, here's a few quid. You know where to direct your complaints'
Even if not the intent, then I would imagine that some employees would see it like that, which wouldn't help anything.
@convert is wise.
You've admitted this is a perk, a reward to the team rather than any form of real work. Which changes everything, why then does Billy No-Milan get nowt cos he can't make it?
How much are you spending per head on this trip? If they genuinely can't attend due to 'personal reasons' (that they may well have known about when asked but kept quiet as they didn't want to ruin it for everyone else) which are sufficiently sensitive that you can't discuss here, why not bung them the base cash value of the trip instead on the proviso that a) they don't expect it next year and b) they tell no-one in case it gives anyone ideas? Have them WFH on Monday to save you the cost of a temp, but give them an extra day off in lieu as Joseph has suggested about 17 times so far in the last two pages.
An argument was floated earlier about "fair." What's fair is that you've offered this jolly to all your staff and one has declined. You haven't excluded anyone, that's totally fair on your part. What isn't fair is the outcome, for whatever reason someone can't accept your offer so they're the only one getting **** all as their annual bonus.
Cos, really, all other things aside what's the downside to you here? The cost of a temp for a day when you can afford to take everyone on holiday and you're already quids in anyway because one less person is going? The only problem I can see is as I said in my first post, you could be setting a precedence; tell them it's an exception and to keep quiet about it and that's mitigated.
ignore the reasons given for non-attendance
As I said before, they shouldn't need to give a reason. "It's personal" should be sufficient.
‘Nah, no expensive holiday this year because someone ruined it last year by not coming, here’s a few quid. You know where to direct your complaints’
Even if not the intent, then I would imagine that some employees would see it like that,
All of the This.
I hadn't realized that the day in question was just for travelling back - which changes my position slightly.
I think that you should quietly suggest to the team member that they just "work from home" on the Monday. Anyone would any sense would see that was a permission for a cheeky day off. I don't think you should offer leave, TOIL or any sort of cash equivalent.
I find it sad that people have such empty lives that this sort of thing appears to be something worthwhile
Lol.... I find it sad that you can't bear to spend a additional moment in your colleagues company without getting paid for it - even when that time is spent doing "recreational" type activities in Milan. Imagine spending 8 hours a day of your life like that - I imagine that it could turn you into a right miserable bastard!
I think the mutual incomprehension on this thread maybe down to this differing perspective.
I agree 100% with this. Anyone who's ever worked in a sales role, or a role who's job involves travel, in fact: I'd bet that most people with office jobs have been involved in some sort of team building activities that span both the working day and out-of-hours, and would be well acquainted with how to navigate. As with most things, rule number 1 applies.
Fair enough, you can't go (or don't want to)..... but demanding a day off instead? No.
Lol…. I find it sad that you can’t bear to spend a additional moment in your colleagues company without getting paid for it – even when that time is spent doing “recreational” type activities in Milan. Imagine spending 8 hours a day of your life like that – I imagine that it could turn you into a right miserable bastard!
Maybe it depends where the company is located, people appear to be matey with each other up North - the culture feels different. In London, almost every company is full of pricks who are in direct competition with you (maybe not if you're in a some graphic design company full of awesome frappe sipping, yoga obsessed hipsters). I don't want to go on team building exercises or to Christmas parties with people who are constantly trying to get one up on each other. My life is less stressful these days since I finally learned to go full Trump at work - admit nothing, deny everything and counter accuse (and hide behind my KPI's).
Lol…. I find it sad that you can’t bear to spend a additional moment in your colleagues company without getting paid for it – even when that time is spent doing “recreational” type activities in Milan. Imagine spending 8 hours a day of your life like that – I imagine that it could turn you into a right miserable bastard!
Maybe it depends where the company is located, people appear to be matey with each other up North – the culture feels different. In London, almost every company is full of pricks who are in direct competition with you (maybe not if you’re in a some graphic design company full of awesome frappe sipping, yoga obsessed hipsters). I don’t want to go on team building exercises or to Christmas parties with people who are constantly trying to get one up on each other. My life is less stressful these days since I finally learned to go full Trump at work – admit nothing, deny everything and counter accuse (and hide behind my KPI’s).
Errrrr, thanks for proving my point?
To be honest - the pair of you sound exactly like the sort of people that need to go on a team building course, might be a good investment of your time. I guess it makes sense that the people that would vehemently refuse to go out of principle (or appear to hate their colleagues!), are those people who would most benefit from it.
To be honest – the pair of you sound exactly like the sort of people that need to go on a team building course, might be a good investment of your time. I guess it makes sense that the people that would vehemently refuse to go out of principle (or appear to hate their colleagues!), are those people who would most benefit from it.
I will have a drink with colleagues that I like - we will organise them between ourselves, but there's no way in hell I will go to a team builder unless I am forced. The people that go, actively participate and make themselves the center of attention are almost always the ones that cause needless bullshit and psychodrama at work for others. Your attitude that others should see the world the way you do is a prime example of that, it causes teams to try and force people to fit a mold instead of allowing people to play to their strengths and appreciate others strengths and weaknesses. I have a lot of time for colleagues who treat people who are different to them with open curiosity as opposed to acting like a bunch of school children. Unfortunately only really, really good companies employ the former in any kind of number - and surprisingly, those are the companies where people actually want to go to the team builders as opposed to out of sycophancy.
I find it sad that people have such empty lives that this sort of thing appears to be something worthwhile
For some people it’s an opportunity that they might not otherwise afford. I’ve done two such trips the first being an all expenses paid week in Vancouver. No way I’d have gotten to do that otherwise and therefore I hugely valued it. Also in my case and I suggest the op’s although some time is spent with colleagues there’s plenty of time to get away from them.
The Ops qualified several times this isn’t an enforced team building exercise - it defers to a social weekend away together. Even so, there’s plenty of team building exercises - in fact all that I’ve been on - that actively encourage people’s differences, strengths and weaknesses.
To be honest – the pair of you sound exactly like the sort of people that need to go on a team building course
You know that team building courses don't work, right?
The only people still trying to push the idea that they work are companies that organise team building events.
I will have a drink with colleagues that I like – we will organise them between ourselves, but there’s no way in hell I will go to a team builder unless I am forced. The people that go, actively participate and make themselves the center of attention are almost always the ones that cause needless bullshit and psychodrama at work for others. Your attitude that others should see the world the way you do is a prime example of that, it causes teams to try and force people to fit a mold instead of allowing people to play to their strengths and appreciate others strengths and weaknesses. I have a lot of time for colleagues who treat people who are different to them with open curiosity as opposed to acting like a bunch of school children. Unfortunately only really, really good companies employ the former in any kind of number – and surprisingly, those are the companies where people actually want to go to the team builders as opposed to out of sycophancy.
Nail/head. Thankfully my workplace employs the “former” people in general who are quite happy to let people be who they are and play to their strengths rather than squeezing them into everyone’s else’s narrow view of how people should be.
You don’t build teams with team building days, you do it in the everyday work life by the way you manage and support staff.
Whatever happened to just doing the job you are also to do and doing it well, surely that’s all the reward you need to want to go to work, that and the prospect of a job next week too. I guess contracting in the building trade on price work and having a different place of work every week means I don’t need encouragement to go to the sample place day in day out. I do get on with my colleagues and employees and we do go out on mtb at times. It’s nothing to do with work team building though. Some people need a thank you for doing the job they are paid and they need more of an incentive than money, each to their own I guess, but in my industry if you need these things to do the job you are paid for you’re in the wrong place.
Who said "need" Couchy? I'm not sure the op is doing this because his team "needs" to go to Milan?
I get similar perks in my job but I don't "need" them. But if my employer offers this and it works for my family I go - especially in my case as I can take my wife as a bit of a reward for my stress she puts up with.
So, in summary, people should have open minds, but not about team building days which are shite?
So, in summary, people should have open minds, but not about team building days which are shite?
I have an open mind about team building. It's just that all the evidence I've found says they do more harm than good.
If anyone has any evidence showing the opposite feel free to post it.
You don’t build teams with team building days, you do it in the everyday work life by the way you manage and support staff.
Which is exactly the sort of boss the OP seems to be as well.
Whatever happened to just doing the job you are also to do and doing it well
You clearly don't employ any Millennials do you? In our industry there is a huge expectation to get things like flexible working arrangements, generous holiday packages, duvet days, conference allowances, book allowances, free gifts on work anniversaries, short working hours, fun social events etc. If we don't provide at least some of this we simply aren't competitive and it's difficult enough as it is to recruit in some positions (and before anyone says it, this person isn't in a role that is difficult to recruit).
In our industry there is a huge expectation to get things like flexible working arrangements, generous holiday packages, duvet days, conference allowances, book allowances, free gifts on work anniversaries, short working hours, fun social events etc.
I sometimes get a free tin of paint.
Whatever happened to just doing the job you are also to do and doing it well
It never went away but what hasn’t also gone away is some kind of extra thanks, a card, a box of chocolates, a handshake, a letter or a pint.
The best thanks I’ve had is people stopping me in the street, shops or pubs thanking me for what I did, it’s amazing feeling but I often struggle to recall the case. 😂
I thought we were doing something nice
I cannot fault you at all, this is a REALLY good thing and you should be commended for this kind of attitude towards your staff, as a person and a boss. The positives this sort of activity provides for your business is obviously worth the cost of the trip.
I hope you don't let the can of worms that's been opened change the way you think, as we could do with more bosses/managers to have this mindset in all sectors.
It is by definition a work activity, as its being funded and organised by their employer. Whether its in working hours or not is irrelevant albeit the attending employees have chosen to give up their non work time to attend.
This is the main thing I am struggling with. If it is provided and paid for by work, and being called a team building exercise, then by definition it MUST be a work activity and attending the office/WFH on Monday, when others are travelling for work purposes, is completely fair.
If its a "free weekend away perk" (bonus) and they are travelling back on Monday (doing 'personal travel' in work time) then an additional day of is not unreasonable.
You clearly don’t employ any Millennials do you? In our industry there is a huge expectation to get things like flexible working arrangements, generous holiday packages, duvet days, conference allowances, book allowances, free gifts on work anniversaries, short working hours, fun social events etc. If we don’t provide at least some of this we simply aren’t competitive and it’s difficult enough as it is to recruit in some positions (and before anyone says it, this person isn’t in a role that is difficult to recruit).
LOL that would work in construction, why hasn't the power to my building been energised.....sorry the sparky was working from home yesterday and today he is having a duvet day.....you are right we don't employ any millenials as they wouldn't like a cold dirty building site and this is quite apparent with the lack of younger people coming into the industry, guess we don't offer the correct perks for them and it isn't cool to work with your hands these days
You don’t build teams with team building days, you do it in the everyday work life by the way you manage and support staff.
Hmmm - well this seems to have failed in rbw's case, so the only thing to do is let him go a.s.a.p. and replace him with someone who actually wants to work there.
johndoh
(and before anyone says it, this person isn’t in a role that is difficult to recruit).
Oop, cards are marked! 😆
@couchy - I guess the sorts of younger people that end up working in construction will soon experience the working conditions and have expectations that are reflective of the industry. However in my line of work, the expectations are set quite differently and if I acted like I am running a construction company I would struggle to recruit or retain staff. I guess the same would go for people in leisure & hospitality, waiting staff etc too - every industry has its own levels of expectations.
Conversely if my staff expected huge bonuses like bankers get, they would be in for a big shock.
You clearly don’t employ any Millennials do you?
The ones I've hired have been chuffin' excellent - 1000 times better than I was at that age.
I agree 100% with this. Anyone who’s ever worked in a sales role, or a role who’s job involves travel
I travel a lot for work, I expect travel to be considered work time as I won't not be doing it if it were not for work. Some places off day in lieu of travel is not on a work day instead of pay.
As for the team building. I understand that what you are saying that it is a useful tool, but to have to give up a weekend for unless payed would be a no go for me. I take my job seriously but I am also busy outside of work, giving up time for work is work whatever is being done. If it's a job it ultimately comes down to you are having your time purchased. Wrap it up in prestige but that's what it is.
It would be pretty difficult not to recruit any millennials.
I thought we were doing something nice
I would add I think you are but it may not work for everyone. 10 years ago I would have been all over it, now not at all because of my lack of free time.
"Did you try to gauge availability before organising"
Yup – we tried various alternatives and this was the only weekend everyone could make (including the person in question). We booked flights and the hotel then they came back to us with the reason they couldn’t come (which, if true, they would have known about when we asked the question) so we gave their place to a student who comes in once a week. Subsequently they asked for a day’s holiday.
Well this has changed my opinion completely. He agreed to the weekend and you've already spent the money on him.
Just the same as being ill the day of the Xmas party. Tough titties. No half day off and free dinner for you.
At best (it's really hard to gauge the mood) then have the Monday off. Not a bonus day's leave to use at his convenience, that's unfair on the rest of the employees who are capable of making plans and sticking to them.
Might be bit of a long watch if you are a Millenial........ but this neatly sums up some of the problems we have in the Western World.
The ones I’ve hired have been chuffin’ excellent – 1000 times better than I was at that age.
Don't get me wrong, we have a great team and they work very well. It's just that expectations are pretty high because of what businesses tend to offer in our industry to attract the best.
so we gave their place to a student who comes in once a week.
I bet said employee feels rightly pissed off. Possible waiting for a hospital appointment? Trying yet failing to organise childcare? And you've treated them like that.
Wow.
Oop, cards are marked!
So on the basis they've asked for an alternate share of the reward you've already made a conscious decision that they are half way out the door.
You don't know content on a public website is admissible in court - for instance an employment tribunal - right?
I bet said employee feels rightly pissed off. Possible waiting for a hospital appointment? Trying yet failing to organise childcare? And you’ve treated them like that.
We had already booked the flight and hotel - what else do we do with it? And, as already stated, they were initially happy with the arrangement (which is why we went ahead and booked everything) then they backed out about 6 weeks later.
Apart from the lynching from the usual suspects this thread has made me realise how terrible my industry is for job benefits.
I get minimum statutory holiday allowance, 5 days paid sick leave, statutory minimum pension and that's it.
This year we were emailed to say no Christmas meal (we've never had one anyway!?) but that we are free to organise one amongst ourselves 😂😂
When my work van broke down a few months ago they expected me to rent one using my own money and claim it back.
Welcome to the world of construction. Run by crooks and thieves for quick profits.
Johdoh, flip it on its head. Should the staff member not be thinking, "I have declined a free work trip. Am I being unreasonable to ask for a holiday when everyone is travelling"?
My answer would be yes and would not be so cheeky asking my boss such a question.
None of our business, but I suspect a suitable reason for calling off would of course be acceptable? Or even saying no thanks when first approached, but not after agreeing, declining and then asking for a day off.
Johdoh, flip it on its head. Should the staff member not be thinking, “I have declined a free work trip. Am I being unreasonable to ask for a holiday when everyone is travelling”?
Yes we have looked at it that way around too and pointed out to them we are asking them only to perform essential tasks (such as answering the phone) and they know that everyone else is expected to be available for work on that day on their return (which I have mentioned on here already).
but not after agreeing, declining and then asking for a day off.
You don't know the circumstances though. And this is key. I suspect he can't go for a very good reason because he wanted to go before. We've all established the day off is unreasonable, but there seems to be an unrelenting desire from the OP to ensure he's not able to enjoy himself even a tiny bit when all of his other colleagues are.
They have been asked to work to their return, yet earlier on the thread the OP admitted to the travel being of a duration "most of the day". We all know they won't be working, come on now.
I've repeated myself several times now and can't be arsed to do so again, but essentially the employee could be given a small alternative token of reward for his efforts but the OP seems to not want to do that. This does not mean the OP has become a bad person, but just seems obstinate to this issues concerning this individual.
Its his choice, he's the boss and I'm sure he can manage the outcome quite capably should he need to.
I get 25 days plus bank holidays holiday allowance, would get laughed out of the building asking for paid sick leave, statutory minimum pension and that’s it.
Christmas meal is paid for but not the drinks.
I get less than the gov. recommended mileage allowance for using my own purchased car for travelling to building sites etc.
Welcome to the world of construction. Controlled by clients who want lowest price before quality.
Might be bit of a long watch if you are a Millenial
You do realise that "Millennials" are aged between 20 and 40 by now, yes? That's 40 years of being told how shit they are by Baby Boomers. If you want to whine on about the "entitled youth of today" then you're a generation out now granddad, that's Gen Z you want to be picking on.
I'm so very ****ing bored of this hoary old cliché now. It'll be vegans, fat people and gingers next.
Might be bit of a long watch if you are a Millenial…….. but this neatly sums up some of the problems we have in the Western World.
This is such bollocks I don't even know where to start. I have a lot of friends in London who are millennials, who work in tech - the companies they work for have generous work from home policies, duvet days, mental health days, pets at work days - all that kind of stuff.
Guess what? These young adults are constantly on their laptops working - we'd be sat having a drink at a weekend - one of them would suddenly have a bright idea and log into work from their laptop. These are youngsters who work in an irregular fashion but average 10-12 hours a day, they are marrying other millenials who are just as driven - who also work 10-12 hours a day.....these people also want children.....do you see where I am going?
What is happening is that the best companies are having to go Japanese (managing all aspects of their workers lives) to attract these type A personalities, to help them manage their lives and achieve everything they want (including having families).
Male boomers had the luxury of being able to work a high powered job and afford to have a stay at home wife who doted on them - millennials do not.
So on the basis they’ve asked for an alternate share of the reward you’ve already made a conscious decision that they are half way out the door
kryton, John didn’t say that their card was marked.
So on the basis they’ve asked for an alternate share of the reward you’ve already made a conscious decision that they are half way out the door.
You don’t know content on a public website is admissible in court – for instance an employment tribunal – right?
@Kryton57 Bloody hell, you're putting 2 and 2 together and getting 547. And a half.
You've moved the discussion onto somebody being sacked and employment tribunals. LOL, only on STW!
Good grief.
Look. You've said this is for morale and as a thank-you for the team. One of your employees now cannot make it due to unforeseen personal circumstances which you accept are valid. They must already feel pretty shitty about not being able to go, and probably are feeling horribly guilty about the whole thing.
Meanwhile, you and your management team have already spent way too much time stressing about this, overthinking it, and deciding to knock it on the head next year.
The jolly must be running into thousands. What's the day rate of an office junior temp to answer the phone for a few hours? Probably less than the first round of drinks. Give the poor sod the day off "as a gesture of goodwill," everybody's happy and you're loose change out of pocket.
kryton, John didn’t say that their card was marked.
No but he can be seen to have implied it by stating the position was one easily fulfilled by another person.
Glenquagmire, there's enough on here to make a decent fist of a tribunal. Personally I'd never be asking this kind of thing on a public forum.