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I’ve been waiting in this airport for nine hours now and I’m tired. It’s really hot in this animal suit.
Are we going or not?
TJ^^^ in fun sponge shocker. Narrow and strict legalistic views which suggest a degree of envy.
NHS SLTs undoubtedly 'endure' team building events - but maybe not in Milan - which are denied to ward staff but....get real.
Most people see these non-working events - and this one is clearly not work-based bonding - as a bit of a 'thank you' from the boss and treat them as as such; you know, give a little on both sides.
Those who attend will all find a way to get something out of the weekend.
As for the individual in question, by all means take a days leave on the Monday but it will be deducted from annual entitlement.
By their actions, the individual in question could cause the management to re-think/cancel any future events.
OP not being unreasonable.
Kelvin^^^ the individual has got a free weekend; isn't that enough for them?
A free weekend? I’ve misunderstood then. I thought they were being asked to work all the days they normally work, which is fair enough… but if the company is spending money on all the other staff, and they won’t be in the office that Monday… cut the guy some slack and do something for him… might not be the day off, but doing something for them might go someway towards to making them feel part of the company as well. The morning off? A lie in?
Most people see these non-working events – and this one is clearly not work-based bonding – as a bit of a ‘thank you’ from the boss and treat them as as such; you know, give a little on both sides.
Including TJ.
Kelvin - there's no I in team; employee in question either turns up on the Monday (but who will know) or takes a day's leave.
Drac - discussion closed, no?
there’s no I in team
But there is a me
Frank conway - how do you work that out from what I have posted? Or just your ideological hatred of anything to the left of Gengis Khan getting in the way again?
[quote="tj"]Well you know me as a boss baiter and I do not think he is doing owt wrong – even said it would be declared as a BIK for tax. An extra bone to the non attendee would be generous but whats offered is not a bad second best
I have no issue with what I have read that Johndoh has intended.
I think the actual issue is the definition of the Team Building you’ve provided. The rest of the team are not working together in an urban jungle environment, nor building introspective sales solutions. They are being paid flights and hotels to go and see sites and get pissed over a nice lunch.
Now, said employee isn’t entitled to a day off no. But, if they cant attend for personal reasons they are missing out on the reward that the rest of the team is being provided vis a vis you are alienating them and they are missing out on the reward.
I think it’s perfectly reasonable to suggest you’re investing time and money into the other members to enjoy themselves whilst this employee is unable to do so, and should be allowed a small token of their representative share.
Give them the day off and offer for them to expense a nice lunch with their SO whilst the rest of the team is doing the same in Milan. Theyve saved you a hotel and air fare after all.
Jeez - when did everybody get so damn ungrateful and ungracious?
If I could go, I'd go. Even if I wasn't keen on one or two of my fellow employees surely to goodness I can't dislike them all? (and if I do, then maybe the problem is me, not them?) Go, have a look around, enjoy some culture, sleep in a hotel for a night or two - what's not to love? And as a bonus maybe you get to think of a way to "better the company" or one of it's processes.
If I couldn't go - I'd turn up for work and, as mentioned above, enjoy a quiet day on my own in the office. Again, what's not to love? And as a bonus maybe I'd spot something that could improve the way the company works when everyone is not around.....
The Boss sounds like a decent guy.
Note: I don't blame the "lone remainer" for asking - if you don't ask you don't get, and the boss might have just said "yeah, why not" and that would have been that. I am suggesting though that if the answer was "It doesn't really work like that" then the lone-remainer should have said "OK Boss, no worries" and enjoyed the day on his own with his feet up pretending to be the big cheese.
Everyone could have scored here, and that's really the aim in Life isn't it?
Happy Days 🙂
Everyone could have scored here
With Tracey from accounts?
Fandango in Milan.
Whether it's enjoyable or not, a team event is a team event - work. The guy misses his work, why should he be rewarded with a day off?
Whether it’s enjoyable or not, a team event is a team event – work. The guy misses his work, why should he be rewarded with a day off?
Its not "work" though is it, its a piss up / sight seeing in Milan under the guise of "Team Building". We shouldn't he have a boozy lunch on the company as well?
And like I said, he's saved the company a couple of hundred pounds by default of his circumstances, just offer him a paid lunch and some down time, just like his colleagues are getting.
Or just your ideological hatred of anything to the left of Gengis Khan getting in the way again?
Genghis frequently organised foreign mini-breaks for his team. Don't think he ever made it as far as Milan, but I recall some rowdy behaviour in cities right across Asia. Work hard, party hard.
Lol @ Martin
What time is the return flight?
I don't want to miss it due to overindulgence. Me, Perchy and Martin from IT are a bit tipsy already
What happens in Milan, stays in Milan.....
Its not “work” though is it, its a piss up / sight seeing in Milan under the guise of “Team Building”.
Maybe it's team building under the guise of a nice trip? No rule that says work can't be fun !!
Split the difference and offer it as unpaid leave?
Is it normal to get paid your hourly rate on team building days? I've never been on one.
Is it normal to get paid your hourly rate on team building days? I’ve never been on one.
IME it's not normal to have them outside of work days. When we have them of an evening, karting etc, pub, its unpaid.
Is it normal to get paid your hourly rate on team building days?
For IR35 purposes I'd question whether hourly-paid employees qualify for teanbuilding-type activities?
I think people need to stop seeing it as 'team building' (I accept I said that in the title but it is clouding the picture). It is a social event which, by definition of getting the team together without the distraction of work, helps build team morale. We are doing it before Christmas and I guess that in a previous life it could be called a Christmas party however, as I have mentioned, our younger workforce don't go for the partying and much prefer a relaxed social event (we have asked and this is universally the case. In the past we have had overnight trips to the Lakes (with walking, team cooking evenings and boating etc) and overnight theatre trips to London but the last two years we have pushed the boat out a bit more to do something more memorable. All our team are happy to do this as an unpaid event as they enjoy it (would you pay people overtime for going to a Christmas Party at the local Best Western)? If people started to ask for overtime or paid leave in lieu (disregarding this one occurrence of the request due to different circumstances) then we would stop doing such events and revert to a more conventional Christmas evening out. Fortunately our team accept that we are genuinely trying to be nice to them and always show genuine gratitude that we do it for them.
It is a social event which, by definition of getting the team together without the distraction of work, helps build team morale.
In which case, if one of your team can't make it on the jolly due to young children, other family commitments, fear of flying, whatever, then it seems a bit harsh to make him/her work when the rest of the team is clearly not working (unless they are taking the Monday as part of their holiday entitlement).
Unless the underlying aim is to penalise them for not being able to join you. I can't imagine the cost of the temp to answer the phones is more than the cost of the travel package for that one person.
In which case, if one of your team can’t make it on the jolly due to young children, other family commitments, fear of flying, whatever, then it seems a bit harsh to make him/her work when the rest of the team is clearly not working (unless they are taking the Monday as part of their holiday entitlement).
Thats my view. It feels like "hard luck chump, get to work" rather than "I'm really sorry you can't experience our trip but in recognition of your contribution to the team and everyones else enjoyment, please go and have nice lunch on us".
I've never gone on one of these types of work trips and come back thinking better of my colleagues. Normally I find I genuinely can't stand 50% of them and the other 50% are just really boring.
In the interests of team morale I avoid these things like the plague now.
It is a social event
In which case, I've changed my mind also. Give them the day off, spin it as "the office is closed on Monday" maybe, but make it clear that this is an exception rather than setting a precedence and the same may not apply next year.
young children, other family commitments, fear of flying, whatever
The reasons are complicated and I would rather not go into them, but it's none of the above and they attended last year.
If it’s a social event then matey should get Monday off the same as the rest of the team.
Normally I find I genuinely can’t stand 50% of them and the other 50% are just really boring.
Aother IT nerd yeah ?
It is a social event which, by definition of getting the team together without the distraction of work, helps build team morale.
Well I’m in the wife will moan but let’s bring it on but can I be in party group not the museum group please.
It would be nice to offer something to the person who can’t make it though.
The reasons are complicated and I would rather not go into them, but it’s none of the above and they attended last year.
ah - so it's your view of their reasons that mean they don't get a day off work alongside everyone else (who's not missing out on the reward trip)?
Kryton57
Now, said employee isn’t entitled to a day off no. But, if they cant attend for personal reasons they are missing out on the reward that the rest of the team is being provided vis a vis you are alienating them and they are missing out on the reward.
It's amazing how many people can't understand this simple point.
The reasons are complicated and I would rather not go into them, but it’s none of the above
I think 'whatever' probably covers most angles. 🙂 Does the employee need a valid reason not to go on what is effectively a three day Christmas party? I can understand the distinction when it was being presented as a teambuilding exercise, ie work-related, but basically you're giving everyone in the office except him/her the day off on Monday.
but basically you’re giving everyone in the office except him/her the day off on Monday.
We are not - they are all available for work during the day (with the exception of when we are flying). For the employee staying back, they are simply being asked to be available to answer phones and triage support tickets which we have said they can also do from home if they prefer.
Fortunately our team accept that we are genuinely trying to be nice to them
You're not being very nice to "can't go/won't go" guy. 😆
You’re not being very nice to “can’t go/won’t go” guy.
He's not. And there probably a "bullying" or "discrimination" HR case right there. The employee is effectively being discriminated based on his/her personal circumstances outside of work hours. As the Milan trip encompasses working hours it is therefore by extension under HR remit and working practise / employee guidelines.
OP should be fired IMO 😉
The employee is effectively being discriminated based on his/her personal circumstances outside of work hours.
They are not being discriminated against - we are asking them to be available for work just as the rest of the team are on the Monday.
It is a social event which, by definition of getting the team together without the distraction of work, helps build team morale.
Now we are getting somewhere.
Its not 'work' its a jolly. Its being called a "Team Building" event to, lets be honest, have the company pay (no problems, good on you for looking after your staff) and with 'creative accounting' write it off for tax reasons (unless I misunderstood this bit? I also think there might be word for this starting with F?)
While you haven't said why they've said they cant go,you have said they cant instead of wont so they are missing out on this social event that the company are paying for, perhaps, for reasons beyond their control?
So the Monday is part of this jolly (not work) yet the staff going aren't expected to use a days leave for travel back? So why should the individual in question.
If I'm correct about those tax purposes I spoke about above, then this weekend is work. Then those going are working the whole weekend and their Monday working day is travelling for company business. This is where the TOIL or O/T issues crop up...
Opinions on a forum don't matter. It needs to be company policy. So write it, stick it in there and be done!
You know, once, I worked for a place where the team would've all happily gone away for a weekend team building/jolly together, cos we all liked each other. Except the boss. We hated the boss.
I'm off for a ride - obviously I'm available for work the entire time, except when I'm out of mobile range. 🙂
Tbh, what should really happen is say to the guy, can you go in cover the Monday, so the travelling staff don't need to be doing the ridiculous thing of trying to cover work while flying home.
Then give the guy the Friday off when everyone is back in the office.
Win/win, actual team work! 😆
They are not being discriminated against – we are asking them to be available for work just as the rest of the team are on the Monday.
Is he allowed to wander around town, have a paid lunch and get pissed on Monday? Genuine question.
So the Monday is part of this jolly (not work) yet the staff going aren’t expected to use a days leave for travel back?
See above - everyone is expected to be available for work on the Monday.
johndoh
See above – everyone is expected to be available for work on the Monday.
That in itself is pretty unreasonable tbh.
we are asking them to be available for work just as the rest of the team are on the Monday.
Does he get to turn off his phone for a nap when everyone else is kipping on the plane?
That in itself is pretty unreasonable tbh.
My thoughts exactly. I'm either in Milan running my own agenda visiting places and have lunch, or I'm expected to work at my laptop. Which is it?
Because if I've had some beers for lunch, or don't take the phone call 'cause I'm visiting a monastery, I can't be working as they would invoke an H&S/Conduct issue.
We are going for a weekend away (travelling back on the Monday whichj will take most of the day)
This says Monday will be travel.
everyone is expected to be available for work on the Monday.
They're all bringing their work laptops? This is starting to sound more like my kind of do!
They are not being discriminated against
Of course not. Be with all the effort and expense you are going to for all the rest of the staff, not offering this one member of staff anything at all is probably not the best way to make them feel as valued as everyone else.
not offering this one member of staff anything at all is probably not the best way to make them feel as valued as everyone else
He offered them the same trip to Milan.
if he/she actually can't go for genuine reasons (health or childcare/relative care etc), then I'd give them the day off on the quiet. if they are just an arse, and don't want to go, then sod them
"Sod them" appears to be the message, for sure.
if he/she actually can’t go for genuine reasons
Would not wanting to spend your valuable time off with people you're forced to interact with 5 days out of every 7 be considered a genuine reason?
Those that are going on the trip are giving up their weekend in return for whatever benefit that might bring in travelling on Monday rather than being in the office.
If the employee cannot or does not want to make it then they don't get any perceived benefit on the Monday as they didn't/couldn't give up the weekend.
That said the whole aim of the game is team building.. Can you reschedule or plan something all can attend?
Twodogs
Subscriber
if he/she actually can’t go for genuine reasons (health or childcare/relative care etc),
How about cup final weekend and I'm off to get rattled? 😆 That genuine?
That said the whole aim of the game is team building.
Ultimately that is the point here. I've already given the perfect solution at the top of the page.
Rest of the team think the guy's great for saving them having to kid on they are working on the Monday. Guy is happy cause he gets the Friday off!
Team building at it's finest! 😆
I have to say seosahm that your suggestion seems a pretty decent one TBF in order that the person doesn't feel unfairly treated. However it won't effect the issue that everyone else would still need to be available to work on Monday in a reasonable capacity as not everyone has the same skills and the person in question is a more junior member who can only triage support requests and answer phones if we don't ask them to perform their normal daily duties whilst the rest of the team are travelling back.
I have to say seosahm that your suggestion seems a pretty decent one TBF in order that the person doesn’t feel unfairly treated. However it won’t effect the issue that everyone else would still need to be available to work on Monday in a reasonable capacity as not everyone has the same skills and the person in question is a more junior member who can only triage support requests and answer phones if we don’t ask them to perform their normal daily duties whilst the rest of the team are travelling back
I thought that might be the case. Think what you do there is just basically turn the guy into a receptionist for the day, and he basically filters out the work that needs attention for your more senior workers/urgent work if possible. Basically use the guy to minimise the interactions you will be needing to have on the way back. Just get him to forward essential work. Whether he's capable of that is obviously up to you to decide.
Seems to me it'll be more beneficial to you, to have him in the office giving his full attention while everyone is away.
Still glad you asked OP?
Think what you do there is just basically turn the guy into a receptionist for the day, and he basically filters out the work that needs attention for your more senior workers/urgent work if possible. Basically use the guy to minimise the interactions you will be needing to have on the way back.
wooah
You're in the shit there, because you asked the guy to spend the date filtering everyone else work while they were away on a paid for jolly. It doesn't matter if they were travelling, because the backlog is caused by their absence from a trip you organised. He's now effectively penalised for not saying yes to spending his own time with his work colleagues, of which he has no obligation to agree to.
Very dodgy ground if he makes a complaint IMO, and if I were him I'd think twice about working for you.
Still glad you asked OP?
Absolutely - this is why I asked the question in the first place. I am 15 years an employer so sometimes find it difficult to see things from an employee point of view despite my best efforts and intentions.
You’re in the shit there, because you asked the guy to spend the date filtering everyone else work while they were away on a paid for jolly.
Most of that is part of their job description though.
Kryton57
Subscriber
Think what you do there is just basically turn the guy into a receptionist for the day, and he basically filters out the work that needs attention for your more senior workers/urgent work if possible. Basically use the guy to minimise the interactions you will be needing to have on the way back.wooah
You’re in the shit there, because you asked the guy to spend the date filtering everyone else work while they were away on a paid for jolly. It doesn’t matter if they were travelling, because the backlog is caused by their absence from a trip you organised. He’s now effectively penalised for not saying yes to spending his own time with his work colleagues, of which he has no obligation to agree to.
Very dodgy ground if he makes a complaint IMO, and if I were him I’d think twice about working for you.
He's getting the Friday off, he'll survive! 😆
It'll be an interesting exercise for the OP to to see how capable the guy is with a wee bit of responsibility!
Well I hope you're happy now
You're actually worse than Hitler
Most of that is part of their job description though.
So we're back to the point that he's actually been given no reward at all, you're just alienating him by forcing him to work and later listen to all the "weekend stories" from his colleagues just to rub it in.
Lol at Binners.
You’re actually worse than Hitler
...but not quite as bad as Binners who is, quite literally, Hitler.
perchypanther
Member
You’re actually worse than Hitler…but not quite as bad as Binners who is, quite literally, Hitler
Bintler! 😆
Seriously, just deny the leave request and offer the guy some kind of benefit in kind. You can organise a trip to Milan for everyone else, why can't you do something for him he'd appreciate?
I can’t believe people are arguing about this. if you want Monday off, go to Milan. If you can’t go to Milan, or don’t want to go to Milan, working from home fielding calls is the alternative.
I have no idea what the business is. I’m assuming it is not a service that expects a lot of calls and has tight SLAs, otherwise they wouldn’t attempt to be available while traveling.
thinking about it, if the person in question is genuinely unable to go, would it not be more reasonable to have everyone available to take calls on the Monday? It was mentioned earlier that this would be the plan if everyone attended.
@johndoh -stop fannying around, me and Perchy are hammered now and the taxi queue is full of weirdos chasing us
why can’t you do something for him he’d appreciate?
At the very least Monday morning coke and hookers
I can’t believe people are arguing about this
Thank the lord you came along and solved it! err
why can’t you do something for him he’d appreciate?
How about a lap dance, Alan Partridge style?
Thank the lord you came along and solved it! err
I’m pretty sure I did, share the covering of the phones between everyone. Though I’ve just remembered that a temp was going to be drafted in to cover Monday.
the only solution is to stick to the offer of working from home, otherwise it sets a precedent for the future. I know I’d rather have a 3 day weekend than spend the weekend with colleagues.
The OP, tomorrow morning:
I know I’d rather have a 3 day weekend than spend the weekend with colleagues.
If that was how the majority felt then we would just give them a day off in lieu of a company event.
In fact, we have just given everyone this Friday afternoon off as a thank you for their hard work on some recent high pressure projects.
Pffft! I got a Hero chocolate for a successful resuscitation last night. Beat that.
I were him I’d think twice about working for you
I think we all know where the OP is coming to next time he has a vacancy, you're all nightmare employees!!!!
Well you know me as a boss baiter and I do not think he is doing owt wrong – even said it would be declared as a BIK for tax
Must have missed that part.
So if its a Benefit In Kind, and the staff going are paying tax on that, and johndoh isn't claiming tax back (not work), I cant see any reason for the 'cant go' to not be in work Monday. That being said, all those going should book Monday as leave.
That being said, all those going should book Monday as leave.
They're going with the boss. Surely it's up to him ?