You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
If it is not compulsory then its not work as I see it. So no toil etc. Its a jolly the boss is paying for. I would not like to try to argue that is was work as defined in law if they do not have to go.
You said it was "team building" before, isn't that work (optional or otherwise)?
So now they're not working (but they're 'on call'), the company is paying travel and other expenses... WTF are you lot actually doing in Milan?
I'd like to see you argue it's not a BIK or additional remuneration for you and your team (apart from one poor sod)...
If its not compulsory then its not work. Its as simple as that IMO
A team building event that you have to attend - then yes its work with all the legal requirements that entails. If you can choose not to go then its simply a jolly organised and paid for by the boss. Same as a works night out.
Is the individual habitually awkward or is it a one-off?
Do you suspect they just didn't wnana go? (which is totally fine, obvs)
Anyway, good compromise you've reached I think.
paid for by the boss
What personally out of his/her pocket?
Assuming Saturday and Sunday are non working days then those not going should be in work Monday. If anything those going should get paid or time off in lieu for working on non working days. 2 days team building is definitely working
If its not compulsory then its not work. Its as simple as that IMO
If it’s team building it’s work related. Unless this just all a ploy for a bender in Milan?
ignoring the contractual bits.
if you are prepared to fund the trip, and write off how ever many man days for the travel back on the monday, then what is the impact of giving the non-attendee the the monday off? financially **** all, but in terms of long term motivation of that staff member it'll cost you way more than than giving them a day off will.
Take it you have a lone worker policy if billy no mates is at work alone on the Monday
<stares longingly>
I miss the paid for ski trips and me plus one holidays to Hawaii and Jamaica.
</stares longingly>
Sounds awful - big bunch of spineless suckups going to Milan with the boss on a pointless weekend. I'm with the one who has the nerve to say no to this "yes boss, sure thing, whatever you say!" tosh. However, they also need a good long look at themselves - the whole office is away..... that's a day off in itself.
Drac - its just a jolly unless its compulsory attendance. Its not work if you don't have to go
So from a legal and financial perspective the company has sent several people on a mini-break (incidentally will they be covered by the company's insurance policy for this trip?), How much roughly per head is a weekend away in Milan? got to be at least £500ish right with flights and hotel?
Sort of starts to feels like a bonus/additional remuneration. But of course one, apparently awkward, person can't attend for personal reasons. I assume that individual contributed to whatever performance earned the rest of their team this little jolly?
And the majority of the team are not in work on the Monday because they're on a free holiday paid for by the company... Will you all be claiming leave or calling that Monday "travelling for work"?
I don't know, all of a sudden that extra day off doesn't sound quite such an unreasonable request TBH...
Aye next time, just add the 500 quid to every ones pay packet. Job jobbed, team built! 😆
Poor bloke was trying to do something nice for his workers and somehow he's now the big bad boss dragging them away from an hour's swimming lesson for his kid followed by sitting drinking cans of cheap bitter arguing on the internet about whether a winter bike is just for winter or whether soul and funk are different things.
Miserable sods
Drac – its just a jolly unless its compulsory attendance. Its not work if you don’t have to go
Then the staff need to pay BIK and Johndoh can’t claim the tax back as apparently it’s not work related.
Bloody hell. Alternatively the boss could sack off the whole idea, take himself and a few friends away instead, and roll in when he bloody feels like it on Monday.
Edit: weeksy+1!
Poor bloke was trying to do something nice for his workers and somehow he’s now the big bad boss dragging them away from an hour’s swimming lesson for his kid followed by sitting drinking cans of cheap bitter arguing on the internet about whether a winter bike is just for winter or whether soul and funk are different things.
He still can.
What about travel insurance?
are you all accountants or auditors?
can I come to Milan? you won't have to pay me a salary and I'm not bothered whether I'm insured / taxed or MOT'ed.
can I come to Milan? you won’t have to pay me a salary and I’m not bothered whether I’m insured / taxed or MOT’ed.
As long as you can provide at least 10 positive suggestions for the future of the company, and a willingness to dress up in an animal suit, I don't see why that would be a problem.
As long as you can provide at least 10 positive suggestions for the future of the company, and a willingness to dress up in an animal suit, I don’t see why that would be a problem.
I'm in.
I have my own outfit.
....and this is why we cant have nice things anymore. OP, you sound like a mint boss-wish my employer would take me on a trip to Milan
It'll end up like this:
Well you know me as a boss baiter and I do not think he is doing owt wrong - even said it would be declared as a BIK for tax. An extra bone to the non attendee would be generous but whats offered is not a bad second best
I have no issue with what I have read that Johndoh has intended.
By the sounds of it, don't take the boring suck ups as paid sad mates - give the ballsy person a paid day off and a mini promotion, take perchypanther instead as that would be a ball. Job done.
If its not compulsory then its not work. Its as simple as that IMO
Thanks, I will remember that and not pay anyone next time I ask for volunteers to do some weekend overtime 👍
“Sorry, TJ said it’s not work because it wasn’t compulsory, take it up with him”
Well you know me as a boss baiter
You’re a master at it.
Perchy is not a real person, it's an AI comedy-bot.
Rumour has it that it is a B&Q website help-bot gone rogue after too much machine learning
S****
Perchy is not a real person, it’s an AI comedy-bot.
Here I am, brain the size of a planet....
Whatever you do, be sure to visit the Alfa Romeo museum. Even non-petrolheads like my wife loved it.
And it's work. Otherwise it's a benefit in kind. The ones travelling are entitled to time off in lieu (or over-time) if they do not normally work weekends. When I travel of a weekend for business, I claim the time as work - OK seven hours sat in business class isn't exaclt hard, but I normally am working - even on the Sunday corporate bus to PHL.
You aren't being unreasonable. If the person can't attend for personal reasons, but would have liked to (caring for a relative for example), then I'd be nice to them and bring them back something meaningful. If they like Alfa's - even better!
Rumour has it that it is a B&Q website help-bot gone rogue after too much machine learning
PurchasePlanter
You aren’t being unreasonable. If the person can’t attend for personal reasons, but would have liked to (caring for a relative for example), then I’d be nice to them and bring them back something meaningful. If they like Alfa’s – even better!
Any kind of Alfa memorabilia would lead to an almost instantaneous breakdown in your working relationship.
PurchasePlanter
Hi! It looks like you're trying to buy Paint for your Porch....Would you like to me to bollocks it up for you?
I work away from home a fair bit, and would not be particularly interested in a 'team building' event over a weekend anywhere, i'd rather spend it with my wife and kids.
If i did go, i'd view it as work and would expect TOIL for the days i worked over the weekend.
As for the guy who isn't going - its a normal working day for him, as the others are travelling in working hours.
….and this is why we cant have nice things anymore. OP, you sound like a mint boss-wish my employer would take me on a trip to Milan
This. Cheeses cripes! 😐
PurchasePlanter
PaintyPunter
As for Milan, sounds like my last work trip. An EU funded 'cultural and learning exchange' combined with 'transnational meeting' for 6 days in Florence with a group of teachers.
TeamScotland has me sworn to secrecy and no online pictures of the 'team debrief' each evening - done with Aperol Spritzers, TeamSlovakia has a hotel with roof terrace which they used to watch sunset and sunrise with a home made made bar... We won't divulge anything about TeamSpain, far too Catholic.
Given the recent revelation, I think it's more PorchyPainter than PerchyPanther
Asking the employee to work the Monday is not unreasonable.
Asking your team to give up their weekend to visit a hell-hole like Milan probably is though 🙂
As for the BIK comments, I'd assume the company is making a voluntary settlement on the employees behalf as I doubt the annual £150 exemption is going to cover it!
If the rest of the “team” aren’t working on the Monday why should this bloke? If the rest of the team aren’t doing any productive work which aligns with their job role why should he?
I don’t understand the need to stay at office and answer phones, if he went on the jolly who would answer them then?
I can’t think of anything worse than a weekend away watching my work colleagues get drunk 24hrs a day, sounds like misery. And I bet they won’t be doing anything worth travelling all that way for eg museums, countryside stuff, historical buildings etc.
I’d rather spend the time with my family and friends, and I get on with my colleagues really well. I don’t understand this need to have work nights out all the time. If you can build a team without needing to go out on pub crawls you need to take a long hard look at yourself/company.
Are you REALLY aware of your responsibilities as an employer?
Hope you have good insurance.........!!! LOL
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/12/world/europe/france-sex-work-accident.html
To me its obvious, jolly to say thank you to the team, no extra tax will be paid by anyone, creative accounting will write it all of. I bet everyone is gagging to go, I would and like perchy I have a costume (elephant). Maybe the non attendee genuinely can't go and is gutted, so just give the poor sod the day of. Just make sure everyone takes loads of photos of everyone having a brill time and taunt them with them for the next couple of weeks.
Can we all come with you?
Grant them the extra day off, but with the stipulation that every waking moment of the day off must be spent with all of their colleagues, as this is what the rest of the team is getting.
I'd go in and use the day to subtly plant stuff in people's desks to make it look like one or other of you is a thief to create discord and unpick all the good work from the team building weekend.
It's a normal working day. Technically there's probably justification for giving those who did attend time off in lieu. Just to piss off the one left out!
@swedishmetal- Tell me, have you read any of the responses on this thread?
I can absolutely see both sides.
I think they're being a bit cheeky asking for the day off - everyone else is doing company related activities.
That said I can see why they'd be a bit narked if for personal reasons (duties or prior engagements rather than hating Brian from accounts, I assume) they can't make what sounds like a nice weekend away and they feel they're not getting rewarded like everyone else.
So I think you're absolutely within your rights to just tell them to be in, but if you decide to let them have Monday off, make it absolutely clear it's a reward in lieu of the weekend away not any sort of entitlement. It will make them happier, just like the weekend away will make everyone else happier.
The ones travelling are entitled to time off in lieu (or over-time) if they do not normally work weekends.
Are they? Depends on their contract T&Cs does it not?
There is a theory about AI... Known as rampancy. Just sayin'...
There's a real difference of opinion with regards to the actual weekend. Some think the idea of spending a straight 12 days with work colleagues an exciting and rewarding experience..... Personally I'd do everything to avoid such. Don't mind seeing them during, you know, work but in my time off?? I'd regard that as punishment.
I don't work in sales or IT.....
Wow, some of you really are amazingly skilled at making something that’s designed to be a bit of fun into something sinister or abject torture...
If your own boss had said ‘right, I’m having a party at my villa on the Rivera this weekend, all expenses paid, I’d like you all there/who wants to come?’ How many of you would start talking about BIK or travel insurance?
Motives could well be the same, just without ‘team building’ mentioned
How many of you would start talking about BIK or travel insurance?
I wouldn't. I would say no thanks though.
It's not a party though is it? A party is something entirely different. Can I bring the wife or my bike? No, you're with Nigel, from accounts, or Brenda from sales. Or worse, somebody has to spend the weekend with me, and I'm truly awful company. Indeed if you took me away to Milan for the weekend, you'd not see me again until the airport on Monday, where I'd be very, very hungover. I'd be exploring for a solid 48 hours, not having forced fun with Brenda or Nigel
There’s an obvious answer
Let him have Monday off like he wants
Then let everyone else knock off early Tuesday because they had ‘worked the weekend’
His face should be a picture!
(And next year, make attendance compulsory without good excuse)
Are they? Depends on their contract T&Cs does it not?
You can’t just make people work more hours. Of course this is not work and absolutely a holiday but for the tax reasons it’s a team building day.
You can’t just make people work more hours.
Well as far as if they want to stay employed with a particular company you can. If you are salaried and your T&Cs does not allow for overtime and there is a clause in there about working additional hours when required. Happens to a lot of people.
They sound like a dick. Not for rejecting the pointless cringey timewasting nonsense that is teambuilding. I full respect them for having the nads to essentially say FU to that as most fold, moan to each other & endure it. But to miss the opportunity to be in the office alone for the day? sounds like bliss.
Of course this is not work and absolutely a holiday but for the tax reasons it’s a team building day.
Teambuilding events can be fun y'know.
I know it's a bit of a grey area but if it were a true benefit in kind the employees would just be sent to Milan with a partner.
Im amazed no-ones mentioned the carbon footprint / environmental impact of flying many people to central Europe for something that could be done within 30 mins drive what with this being the most virtuous forum in existence.
I shall report this wanton pollution to Greta Thunburg and watch her online army crush this company into oblivion with a tsunami of social media hate...
Though I can be silenced for a pair of Italian hand stitched loafers
Hang on, hang on. Who mentioned pub crawls? Who mentioned a man? Who mentioned getting drunk? And bet all the guesses you want. Last year we went to Berlin - nobody got drunk, we saw the sights, we went to the Holocaust Memorial and Brandenburg Gate, had nice food and saw Checkpoint Charlie.
Don’t judge others by your own standards matey boy.
Wow, some of you really are amazingly skilled at making something that’s designed to be a bit of fun into something sinister or abject torture…
I'm glad you're not my boss.
Well as far as if they want to stay employed with a particular company you can. If you are salaried and your T&Cs does not allow for overtime and there is a clause in there about working additional hours when required. Happens to a lot of people.
We want you to give up your weekend to go away to Milan to visit some sites and have some food.
Am I getting paid for this or getting time in lieu?
No but we’ll call team building
No, thanks I’d rather have the weekend off with my family.
Can’t see how you can fire anyone for that
Are they? Depends on their contract T&Cs does it not?
Nope - if it is considered work ( and as I said under the circumstances I think not) then not only are the entitled to TOIL but also compensatory rest as they would have been "at work" 80 hours straight
Working time directive
and those people with contracts that say " additional hours as required" still have rights under WTD. Many folk have Stockholm syndome 😉 and do not take up their rights but these are legally enforceable and cannot be opted or contracted out of.
Trip via airport with boss and colleagues you say?
I hear these are good fun.
https://www.gradko.com/forensics/products/detector-dog-training-aids/
Also, don't actually do what you might be thinking.
johndoh
Member
@swedishmetalHang on, hang on. Who mentioned pub crawls? Who mentioned a man? Who mentioned getting drunk? And bet all the guesses you want. Last year we went to Berlin – nobody got drunk, we saw the sights, we went to the Holocaust Memorial and Brandenburg Gate, had nice food and saw Checkpoint Charlie.
Don’t judge others by your own standards matey boy.
You mean you are enforcing sobriety on this weekend? ffs this is getting worse by the minute. 😆
You can either give them the day off they asked for, or refuse in which case you’re likely to revive a 1-2 day sickness absence later in the year as payback.
Personally I’d give them them the day off and avoid creating a problem for later.
You mean you are enforcing sobriety on this weekend? ffs this is getting worse by the minute.
+1
needs moar coke and hookers - and cowbell.
Defo a case for cruel and unusual punishment here. 😆
Well, some of the responses on here are as expected and quite frankly are unbelievable.
The OP is taking his staff for what seems a very generous short break to Milan and yet it seems this is bad and staff should be given TOIL as it's over the weekend when they shouldn't be working? WFT? Really?
It’s not a holiday OP says it’s a team building event.
Team building as in spending time together without having our heads in our laptops. We aren’t doing anything silly like raft making as I mentioned at the beginning. I’d say it’s more of an extended Christmas Party but, as we employ lots of younger people that don’t drink to excess, these events are much more relaxed. It has never been compulsory and it has always been well received. This particular request caught us by surprise and if I thought anyone viewed such a weekend as a chore then I’d stop doing it and take the extra profit from the business for myself...
Do you have good insurance? Anything could happen.......... LOL
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-49662134
It’s not a holiday OP says it’s a team building event.
Team building, team bonding or cheeky short break - call it what you will. But ultimately it's a very generous gesture but for some, it seems, it's not enough.
as we employ lots of younger people that don’t drink to excess, these events are much more relaxed
****ing young people these days.
I'd be firing them all and replacing them with people who have hung on to the floor at least once - you can't trust them otherwise.
Is this self-entitled behaviour a one-off from this employee, or a pattern?
The idea that it's a holiday is complete bullshit.
As an example, my employer pays for something similar. The very first year I did it, I ended up chatting to someone from a completely different department who I never normally saw about AWS bills. Between us we realised that a tiny code change I'd been trying to get through some QA process would save us a gigantic amount of money. In the end just that one saving was enough to pay for everyone who went on the trip from my office (about 20 people at the time).
If they won't have anything useful to say or contribute at this event of yours, I would suggest they are not contributing much the rest of the time either.
The trip sounds very generous, and a great idea, and will benefit both staff and the company, I’m sure. If just one employee can’t go… it might be nice for them to feel they’re getting something as well… you don’t owe them anything, but if you’re treating all the other staff it seems odd not to do something for the one missing out.
If one person gets a holiday instead, then pretty soon everyone will decide they want a holiday instead.
It’s a weekend jaunt then indeed very generous but one person can’t make it. Maybe they don’t need the day off but maybe something like a vouchers for a spa day so they feel valued too might be an idea.
Young people who don’t drink in excess? How rare.