[Closed] Am I being unreasonable? Employee wanting holiday in lieu of teambuilding event

Is what unreasonable?

Demanding an extra holiday or asking someone to work on one of their normal work days?

the monday would be a normal work day for them - why wouldnt it be thats a stretch for them to think anything otherwise.

the weekend - unless you normally work weekends/they are rota'd in over the weekend then that would be unreasonable to expect them to be in just because your all off on a jolly.

I'd say you're right. If they don't attend the team building then it's a normal work day.

However they are asking for a holiday because everyone else is off.

Is the issue. They're not off, you are choosing that their work day will be spent travelling and paying them for it.
RM.

Fair on your part.
Team building days are still work days, even if it's not doing normal work.
I#d be more like to to ask for holiday if I was attending and giving up my weekend in truth.

They should work as normal even if on their own. Still sounds 100x better than a teambuilding weekend away.

Is what unreasonable?

Are we being unreasonable to expect them to attend work as normal is the question. I think not personally but was interested how others (especially people from the 'employee' perspective).

Are we being unreasonable to expect them to attend work as normal is the question

Absolutely not.

You should bag the ungrateful cur.

Still sounds 100x better than a teambuilding weekend away.

Well it's a trip to Milan sightseeing, eating and drinking etc - we won't be building rafts in a disused quarry in Wales. 🙂

Hmmm, I feel like you're only providing half the picture.

So if this person came with you on you're jolly, who'd be covering the office? Does the office need covering? and if not does their presence (or lack of) affect the organisation/capability?

No, you are not being unreasonable. The Monday is a normal work day.
If a member of staff goes away to a meeting for example and then due to distance spends the next day travelling back, do the rest of the workforce get a day off?
It's the same principle. The team building event is 'work'.

Is he asking for holiday out of his holiday entitlement or extra?

If he is just asking to take one of his usual paid days leave on that day not unreasonable. If he is asking for an extra paid days leave then unreasonable

However I do hope you are declaring the jolly away to milan as a paid perk for tax 😉

Hmmm, I feel like you’re only providing half the picture.

I don't believe I am - what are you suspicious of?

Not unreasonable to ask them to be at work after all it’s a work day but would be such a ball ache to just give them the days holiday.

You should also write this down on their employment record to illustrate that they're an idiot who can't grasp simple concepts.

Is he asking for holiday out of his holiday entitlement or extra?

Extra as they see it as everyone elsehaving a day off.

However I do hope you are declaring the jolly away to milan as a paid perk for tax

Yes it gets accounted as 'staff entertaining' in the accounting software 😉

So if this person came with you on you’re jolly, who’d be covering the office? Does the office need covering? and if not does their presence (or lack of) affect the organisation/capability?

That would be my issue, if I was the employee. If no one would be in the office if you were all on the jolly, why does someone have to be there if they aren’t on the jolly. As you say, the rest of the office would be ‘on call’, so you’d have cover anyway, no different to if everyone was in the office, and that one person wanted the day off.

I’d also speculate that the Monday probably won’t be that persons most productive day of the year, so better to let them use a days holiday...

Edit: ah, seen they want extra hols. No, take it out of the standard entitlement.

It depends on if the trip is a thank you for all their hard work ( I assume a trip to Milan site seeing is). Then if it is and the person genuinely can't go for personal reasons then why not thank them by letting them have the Monday off.

I agree its a work day and they should not assume they should get it off, but you have the opportunity to have a happy employee or a unhappy one. I guess it depends on if you think they deserve a reward or not.

Not unreasonable to expect employee to go to work.

Not sure about the team building event. I am not keen of many of my colleagues though! Boss is ok ironically!

Normal work day...but if they want a holiday then it comes off their holiday allowance. So if they have holiday time to take then let them.

My business partner makes the good point that if we gave them a day's holiday then the next time we do something similar any amount of other team members might decide they would prefer a day off to do their own thing rather than join in.

If I didn't normally work the weekend and I went on a team building trip, I'd want holiday credits for the weekend, one of which could be offset against travelling back on Monday if I was not going to touch any work at all on Monday (same for Friday if we were heading out that day).

If worker staying behind then works Monday, if that's a normal day for them, they hold the fort as best they can until normality resumes on Tuesday.

I think its cheaky for them to be asking for the time off (unless its out of their holiday allowance)

Not unreasonable to expect them to be at work on Monday imo.

Our team building days have a late start/early finish, free lunch, cakes, go-karting, archery etc.. But 2 or 3 people out of 100 or so choose not to go (the sort of people who'd benefit most from team building 😉 ) and they go to work "as normal", though nobody really checks their hours or what they are doing.

employee has chosen not to go for personal reasons so we have asked them to go into work as normal.

This is fine, the team building thing is still technically working, so they are not entitled to a free holiday if they can't attend.

Assuming normal work is Monday to Friday, they should book leave for the Monday or work as normal.

Johndoh

Are the employees going to be paying tax on it tho?

Extra holiday - nope.

Team building days are still work days

Often they are worse than work days. Though ringfencing unicorns in Milan may just tip into the positive.

Are the employees going to be paying tax on it tho?

Yes, I account for it like that then the company accountants deals with the ££££

what are you suspicious of?

From my perspective I think there's a lack of clarity on the actual circumstances.
You have an employee requesting annual leave (to which I presume they are entitled) on a day that happens to coincide with the rest of their team being out of the office, and you're denying that request on what grounds?

Reading between the lines it's simply because they don't want to come on a trip to Milan with their colleagues instead?

If their presence in the office is of critical importance why are you proposing to whisk them off to Italy in the first instance? if it isn't what is your basis for denying their leave request?
Would their productivity be likely to be improved or reduced by the absence of the rest of the team?

You claim those of you on the "team building exercise" will "all be ‘on-call’ should we need to deal with client work" so again what critical business need is met by denying a leave request?

This always used to happen with work events held during office hours, there was always some miserable bugger that didn't want to go, and wanted a day off instead.

It was usually the same person that, when presented with a Christmas present/Easter egg from the company would always say "I would rather have had the money" or similar.

Tell them to do one.

Give them the day off ya miserable sod. 😆

You have an employee requesting annual leave

No, they are asking for *ADDITIONAL* holiday as they feel the others are getting a holiday. They have used this year's holiday entitlement already.

so again what critical business need is met by denying a leave request

They can answer the work phone (which we would have been paying a temp. for had they come with us).

Assuming that Saturday and Sunday are non-working days, I think its a bit unreasonable to expect people to give-up their weekends for a team building event. Will you be giving the other folk a couple of days off in lieu?

Duraglit.

Guess I disagree with most people here, but if this trip away was intended as any kind of reward I think you should at least consider giving them the day off if they aren't going. Balanced against whether you actually need them working that day, and whether they're a good employee you want to retain.

Are they less than 2 years in the job ? If so time to go .

I'm gonny declare this team building exercise a failure, as picking on the guy that doesn't want to join in on the enforced socialisation isn't really what I'd call team building! 😆

From my perspective I think there’s a lack of clarity on the actual circumstances.

From your perspective perhaps...From everybody else's it's pretty clear I reckon!

 

Why don't they want to go to Milan with you?
Has Tracy/Tariq/Trevor from accounts upset them?

Ahhhhh, Fair enough.
Sorry it wasn't immediately clear from your initial posts, I think some had understood that the employee was requesting an additional day of annual leave (bit cheeky TBH).
While I (incorrectly) assumed they were requesting part of their leave allowance because the office would be empty...

In that case I'd say you're being reasonable OP, perhaps suggest they can use their existing annual leave allowance if they want the day off, but of course they're not getting extra holiday simply for not participating in a company jolly...

Johndoh - good. ( on the tax ) Then in that case the employee has no right to anything. Are the personal reasons valid for not going? A wee gesture to him might be nice if he genuinely cannot got rather than does not want to go but its a cheeky request for sure

My 2p.

Monday is a normal working day, if I was in employees shoes I'd be sat in the office billy because my leave days are precious to me.

If however they want to take a takes Holiday out of their allowance, it's up to you to decide (within reason) if they can - after all, it's perhaps not a bad idea as you'd accepted you'd be effectively closed anyway.

If they want a 'free' day off just because everyone else is, then they can jog on.

I can be a belligerent ****er though, I don't care if 'team building' is all the fun of the fayre, if you want my company, you'd be paying for it.

picking on the guy that doesn’t want to join in on the enforced socialisation isn’t really what I’d call team building!

That's not a joke - we had something come round the other day pointing out that enforcing attendance at social events can amount to workplace bulling. You don't really want to go there!

Agree with Kelron and seosamh

To my mind the danger here is that whatever you do, it sets a precedence for future events. Whatever you decide now will come back to bite you.

What exactly is the nature of this "event"? If the team will be working all weekend then I'd expect to get that time back as holiday as I'm giving up my weekend for work, and Mr(s) Awkward should be in work as usual. If on the other hand it's a thinly disguised excuse for a two day piss-up on expenses somewhere sunny then there's an argument that the opt-outer should be getting the Monday off. Though even then it's not that they're being excluded from anything, they still have the option to attend the event or go to work and they're making that choice. So maybe the answer to "why should I have to be in work when no-one else is?" is simply "because you're choosing not to take part."

I think if it were me I'd be hiding behind "company policy." It is company policy that employees not taking part in an event are to attend work as normal. Job jobbed and you can't be accused of making things personal.

tjagain

Member
Johndoh – good. ( on the tax ) Then in that case the employee has no right to anything.

No right, correct. But bawbag points go to the boss that deny's the request! 😆

It's not really team building unless everybody goes , more like team dividing . Attendance should be compulsory .

You should make the workshy slacker pick you up at the airport so you can get ****ed on the plane.

I’m gonny declare this team building exercise a failure, as picking on the guy that doesn’t want to join in on the enforced socialisation isn’t really what I’d call team building

IME some of the strongest teams are built around having a common enemy, especially one within... The danger comes when that person leaves...

No, they are asking for *ADDITIONAL* holiday as they feel the others are getting a holiday. They have used this year’s holiday entitlement already.

Ah, nah tell them to sod off, and when they get there, to sod off some more. That's proper cheeky that.

It’s not really team building unless everybody goes , more like team dividing . Attendance should be compulsory .

Something tells me you don't manage people...

Are the personal reasons valid for not going? A wee gesture to him might be nice if he genuinely cannot got rather than does not want to go but its a cheeky request for sure

We are saying they can work from home (and forward the phones to their mobile if they are happy for us to do that) and just do minimal work (ie, just be there to answer calls and triage any client support requests).

Ramsey Neil

Member
It’s not really team building unless everybody goes , more like team dividing . Attendance should be compulsory .

Why, the guy signed up to get paid, not for a social life. 😆

You'd think the idea of the trip was to reward employees. Struggling to really see how punishing this guy for having a life out side of work is a reward.

Do he deserve nothing?

Are the personal reasons valid for not going? A wee gesture to him might be nice if he genuinely cannot got rather than does not want to go

"Personal reasons" are just that, no? Ie, there's no onus on an employee to justify why they cannot work outside of their contracted hours, it's none of the company's business.

The distinction between not wanting to go and being unable to is an interesting one, though. If they really would have loved to attend but cannot due to their circumstances, I can see how they might be a bit miffed that they're having to work when everyone else is having a big party. Adding insult to injury and all that.

johndoh - much as I like to slag off bosses ( 😉 ) then that sounds quite reasonable to me. You could be generous and go further but thats a decent offer.

Not unreasonable to ask them to work as normal if they are not away. However if I was away for a weekend of forced fun and team building I would expect the 2 days back in lieu. Travel back on the Monday would count as a working day as well. Maybe the person, quite reasonably, doesn't want to give up their weekend for work or has other commitments and sees it as a paid jolly for others.

However if I was away for a weekend of forced fun and team building I would expect the 2 days back in lieu.

What ??? Seriously ???? Some of you in this place are either just completely unreasonable or argumentative for the hell of it.

IMO the OP has done nothing at all wrong and i'd tell TJ to bugger off with his accounting questions too, it's none of his sodding business who is or isn't paying tax and how.

That’s not a joke – we had something come round the other day pointing out that enforcing attendance at social events can amount to workplace bulling. You don’t really want to go there!

I'd guess to a lot of people that sounds like a joke, but it's not.

Being forced to do something, especially if it included travel, even more especially international travel with no means of 'escape' under my own steam would have me in a fit of Anxiety.

I really like my Boss, we're mates, I like everyone I work with but if I felt forced to attend something, even as pleasant sounding as a trip to Milan I'd hate it.

At previous jobs I've been made to feel completely insignificant when I've, as politely, privately and as non-confrontational as I possibly can be said I don't want to attend this or that, and won't be. I've been 'called out' in public (well work) for being boring, or ruining it for everyone, had peer pressure poured on me, ultimately because someone wants to force me to do something I don't want to do and I always end up looking like the unreasonable, aggressive one when I get so backed into a corner I lash out (verbally, but it's come close before now).

Attendance should be compulsory .

nope nope nope and nope again in big letters! I would never go on a trip like that. Work is work and my time outside of work is mine. Try to make it compulsory and open a huge bag of worms. Working time directive, contractual stuff. Just do not go there

Effectively the workers are going to be working 80 hours straight and legally would be entitled for a lot of stuff in return if its made compulsory

Wait. I missed you were making the others give up their weekend for team building, yeah bollocks to that unless you’re giving them time back which would be more than 2 days as they can’t go home at the end of the day.

Actually after further consideration just how is this trip going to build and motivate your team?

And can the team not be "built" a bit more locally just to make attendance easier for all?
Or is it really (as I think most of us suspect) a long weekend on expenses dressed up as "team building"?
I take it none of the participants are going to be claiming TOIL despite "working" a full weekend?

Having recently left a company full of expenses piss-takers, there are some familiar patterns...

It’s not really team building unless everybody goes , more like team dividing . Attendance should be compulsory .

The beatings will continue until morale improves?

Weeksy - I was being curious about the tax ( and a bit mischievous) because these sorts of things are clearly taxable benefits but rarely declared. Johndoh could have told me where to go on it and I would not have pressed it. By answering he completely pwned me on it.

I have to say - Johndoh sounds like a decent boss.

Sack him and employ me!
I'm free that weekend and I've got my passport ready.... where are we flying from?
(oh, and what's my new job??)

I missed you were making the others give up their weekend

He's not making anyone do anything, except for asking an employee to work on one of their contracted work days.

I get that.... but i'm still astounded you asked... it seemed very very over the line of personaal information to me.

I take it none of the participants are going to be claiming TOIL despite “working” a full weekend?

If it is not compulsory then its not work as I see it. So no toil etc. Its a jolly the boss is paying for. I would not like to try to argue that is was work as defined in law if they do not have to go.

We are saying they can work from home (and forward the phones to their mobile if they are happy for us to do that) and just do minimal work (ie, just be there to answer calls and triage any client support requests).

Sounds above and beyond to me.

Politely say no, obviously if they're beside themselves at missing out on the trip because of XY or Y you might want to play nice, but I think they're deep into piss-taking territory asking for a free day off.

He’s not making anyone do anything, except for asking an employee to work on one of their contracted work days.

So they’re not doing a team building day over a weekend?

On a more practical level; will somebody be taking a guitar?

Something tells me you don’t manage people…

Something tells me you shouldn't make assumptions .

Drac - if attendance is not compulsory then I would find it hard to argue its "work" Work is not optional.

I'd have to go look into the law a bit more and the surrounding case law but from memory this has been tested in court over attendance at conferences and the like and if you have an opt out its not "work"

Effectively it becomes the same as a works night out. do your guys get time back if they go on the xmas night out?

if I was away for a weekend of forced fun and team building I would expect the 2 days back in lieu.

Too bloody right! If they want to do team building, they can do it on company time. Why should I gift my time and social life so that the company can make more money?

do your guys get time back if they go on the xmas night out?

I doubt many here lower themselves to attend work nights out

Something tells me you don’t manage people…

Something tells me you shouldn’t make assumptions .

I'm right though, aren't I?

Effectively it becomes the same as a works night out. do your guys get time back if they go on the xmas night out?

I’d not expect my staff to do team building on nights out as that would then be work.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sEtQj9wuqhs

Too bloody right! If they want to do team building, they can do it on company time. Why should I gift my time and social life so that the company can make more money?

+1 this. Does 'I'd rather go riding' or even 'I'd rather watch Strictly' count as 'personal reasons'? I suppose if everyone gets on uproariously then a trip to Milan would be nice, but for a couple of offices I've been in, a weekend of teambuilding would be like having your fingernails pulled regardless of it being in a fancy location or the local Best Western.

Absent colleague still needs to roll in on Monday as per normal though.