Am i being unreasonable? Bill share context

you're being unreasonable, it's a night out with mates, it doesn't matter.

£35 for a night out with mates - seems like a bargain to me! 🙂

I had 2popodums, chutney, tikka massala, naan bread, 1/2 coke. So £20 tops maybe £16.

And this is the [b]expensive[/b] one!!? 😀🤔

Your mate sounds like an idiot. 4 of us out last week for a curry, split 4 ways no questions asked. Whilst we were there organised to go to the cinema next week. One of us gets cheap cinema tickets through work so he bought 4 tickets on the cheap and we just pay him what he paid for them - he didn't just get a cheap ticket for himself.

On the flip side I also wouldn't dwell on it for 4 days before anonymously moaning about it on the internet.

If i had been given a voucher, in my mind that comes off the top then the rest is divvied up 3 ways.

Yep.

If i had been given a voucher, in my mind that comes off the top then the rest is divvied up 3 ways.

+1

 

Meanwhile your mate is making a smug post about his thriftiness on MSE.

You are not being unreasonable, what did your other pal think though?

If i had been given a voucher, in my mind that comes off the top then the rest is divvied up 3 ways.

I'd probably agree, but in this case it would have saved you £1.60, so, y'know, this is a bit of a big whine for £1.60

**EDIT, sorry, I see the voucher was £30, I misread.

£35 off the top, but agreed upfront to make absolutely certain

I'm with the OP. Voucher off total and devide the rest equally.

Usually  just split 3 ways unless mate with voucher had said 'look lads I am strapped for cash so can't go for curry unless you go to this place where I can use my voucher' no problem then we all know what's going on and he can use the voucher, we want a night out and it's still 3 ways so no extra cost to you.

If your share was only £16 then wtf did they get for £42 each and  your mate put in £35 so no big deal if he was out £7 on his share, its a night out with mates.

If I was you or Mate 1 I would be slightly miffed. If I was Mate 2 the internal conflict of not sharing would be crushing.

If you're driving and having 1/2 a coke then it'll always feel 'poor value' vs the others drinking beers.

Personally, if I had a voucher then it'd come off the bill and the rest would be split 3 ways.
Maybe your mate was skint though and it was the only way he could join you that evening.

How good friends are they?

Best man at wedding level, or someone you occasionally go out for a curry with.

I've had pretty much every scenario with this...

One group we take it in turns to pay the whole bill. (*Very* close friends.)
All the way to "people i know" where you pay your own way, for exactly what you ate.

Personally I'd be hammering frozen onion bhajis into his lawn.

Sort this out BEFORE you order/eat, not after.

Ive had folks with vouchers, others who have taken jars of change to pay their exact amount.

Chalk it up to experience, and make sure it doesnt happen again

Whilst voucher off the top, and split 3 ways would in my mind, be right at the time, that time has passed so forget about it, be mates and move on.

depends a bit on the voucher imo. Freebie in the paper, yeah its shared. Birthday gift? maybe not.

Why did you not raise it at the time?

Why get so bothered about it, if you don't like the people enough thar it bothers you then why go in the first place?

If it was me with the voucher I would put it in first and then split evenly, I sure wouldn't feel bitter about it if someone else using it to pay their share though.

Alternatively you could suggest to the group that one person pays the bill for their choice of where to go and take it in turns.

I think dragging you to a more expensive place and then not sharing the voucher is a bit too selfish. I'd have said something at the time but in a light hearted way.

The bill should always be split evenly not by what you ate. If someone takes the mick with the system and orders extravagantly and then doesn't offer to pay more, simply accept it and then avoid them in future.

I'd suck it up, if their good friends but really I'd agree with this sentiment "Sort this out BEFORE you order/eat, not after."
I do think you kind of in the right, as your voucher m8 has caused you all to go to a place you wouldn't normally go. But friends.. are they good friends, if so suck it up. I would be making sure your voucher welding friend is at least aware you not happy about that last meal payment.

My particular bug bear is when you go for a (not close friends) meal and only have a couple of inexpensive options, but your made to share with idiots who order the most expensive option and loads of drinks.

My particular bug bear is when you go for a (not close friends) meal and only have a couple of inexpensive options, but your made to share with idiots who order the most expensive option and loads of drinks.

You have 3 options here - Order more so you get your bit; suck it up and expect that's just the way these things go as its the social norm; don't go.

I was going to say off the top then split but

depends a bit on the voucher imo. Freebie in the paper, yeah its shared. Birthday gift? maybe not.

is an interesting twist.

What if someone had a 50% off mains voucher. Hypothetical but 3 mains at £10 each, plus sides and drinks another £15 (pure made up just to make numbers easy)

Total bill £45, but 50% off mains makes it £30. Does the voucher provider not put in at all because 'they' saved £15 by having the voucher?  Does he get his main for free as that's what the voucher was valid for, and the others get their mains for £7.50 each (they all win, to a degree)?

Your mate isn't a mate. Sounds like a selfish see you next Tuesday. You should have said something at the time though. Not sure why you didn't.

I used to go for a lunchtime curry on occasion with my workmates. It was always suggested by one guy. We were all very lowly paid journalists working for a local rag and most lunchtimes would consist of a trip to Safeway (this was 20 years ago) to see what was in the reduced isle so a curry was a bit of a treat. We didn't drink so most people's meals came to less than a tenner so we'd put a tenner in to include a tip. Every time, the organiser would "need a bit of cash for that evening" and we'd give him our cash and he'd go and pay the bill on his card. I was genuinely surprised that years later when we'd reached the dizzy heights of a national that my friend still hadn't worked out what had been going on. Suffice to say that people can be real dicks when it comes to money.

In this instance, I think the OP's mate has acted like a bit of a dick and I don't think the OP is have a moan on t'internet, I think they're a bit disappointed in their mate, as I would be.

My 2p on this might be a bit more stoic I suppose.

In the OPs circumstances, I’d know instinctively based on my Mate’s personalities how it would go.
I have friends who’d work out their share to the penny, and if they had a voucher it would come off the cost of what they had and that would be it.
I’ve got other friends who’d take it off the top, because after all it was them who suggested the change of venue but would probably be as generous when it came to ordering and spend a bit more than everyone else and expect the bill shared.
I don’t have the kind of friend who would do the double! Order more, expect an equal share of the bill AND present their voucher as sole payment, I think it would irritate me, but not enough to worry about it.

Ultimately though, a meal with friends is a great thing, and whatever happened when the bill came. I would try my best not to not let an irritation spoil it for me. After all, your Mate with the voucher might be a bit short at the moment, it might have been that or not going out at all.

I'd expect to share the voucher and divide the remainder equally, unless there was a large imbalance in the cost of drinks. I don't expect non-drinkers to subsidise me. Not sure I'd be thinking about it 4 days later though.

For me it's the fact the mate suggested that place specificaly because he had a voucher - that to me, kinda suggests you'd all benefit from a bit of a discount.

If he was skint I wouldn't care, but if he was just being tight I'd be a little miffed too, and probably think twice about future meals out.

Bills should generally just be split, including vouchers, unless as mentioned above, one person decides to have champagne and fillet mignon when everyone else is on lager and a meat pies.

There's two questions here.

Firstly, should the voucher have been used against the total bill? If the scenario was as you describe and the only reason you'd gone there is because meladdo had vouchers then absolutely it should have been against the whole bill. If you were going there anyway and he'd quietly produced them towards payment for his meal at the end, I'd say that's fair game.

Secondly, it's the age-old "how do we split a restaurant bill?" question. There's no right answer here, it's situational. There will always be someone going "lets just split it x ways" and usually it's someone you've never met before who is a colleague of a friend and who ordered a half-kilo steak and two bottles of plonk. Meanwhile in the blue corner is someone pouring over the menu and working out what they had to the last penny. There are variables here; is it a regular event where next week coppers-boy is on the steak and it will all even out over time? Is one of the group notably richer or poorer than the rest? Is someone, frankly, just taking the piss?

What I tend to do is go for a middle ground. I'm not subsidising someone else's meal, nor would I expect someone else to subsidise mine. I'll roughly work out what I ate and drank, then round it up to the nearest fiver. Fair without the fannying. That works for us, it might not work for you.

I always take the view that life is too short to moan about restaurant bills.

Yes, there's people that take the piss (lobster and steak while the rest of you have pizza etc) but I think it always comes around in due course. I'd have paid up and forget about it.

That said, I did raise a query when I was asked to contribute equally to a bar bill when the three other lads had had three pints each, and I'd had two lime and sodas as I was driving!

I know someone who would have done this. No longer a mate:)

I rented a house for a week with a mate family earlier this year. There are 4 of them and 5 of us. I offered to split the bill accordingly but he said no we are still using all the house so happy to pay half. Guess that's another reason we are mates.

Maybe I'm too generous, but if I wanted people to go to a particular restaurant because I had a voucher, then I'd gift that to the group as I'm dictating the terms (therefore £70 for everyone). With regards to drinks.... normally I just keep up with everyone else so don't mind splitting the bill, otherwise I'm not sure. If I'd gotten a share of the voucher I'd sub other people's drinks.

I'm with @Cougar on this one, if you only went there for the single reason that the mate had a voucher then yeah it was implied that it would come off the total bill but I'd equally be direct enough to say 'does that mean we're sharing the voucher'. If you were there anyway and the mate had gone to the effort to find a voucher after arranging that one particular place then it's fair game.

I'm very much of a minority where I dont drink so invariably my bill would be less so I always work out my costing and round it up, especially as I'm not paid a fortune, if I was on £50k a year it would be different!

I sometimes use tesco vouchers when going out with friends and whatever I have exchanged will go on the bill when it's worth more than my food allowance. My friends then split what's left and insist I dont need to pay any more as the vouchers were mine though.

I’d have paid up and forget about it.

But you have the luxury of being able to afford to do so. Not everyone does.

But these are supposed to be friends - friends don't create an issue over £10!

Yeah it might be taking the piss a bit, but worth losing a friendship over?

is an interesting twist.

Not really. Who would give a voucher for someone to go out for a dinner on their own?

OP I can see why you’re irritated. The learning point here is probably to have the convo in advance. I’d have probably replied to his text with something like “ah to be honest mate much prefer the normal place but if you’re offering to share the love and can save us all a few quid I could be convinced”.

The bill should always be split evenly not by what you ate.

Nah, you do how ever need to sort out which of the 4 options is going to be used. Before you get there (or stay home)

You have 3 options here – Order more so you get your bit; suck it up and expect that’s just the way these things go as its the social norm; don’t go.

Four options, with the fourth one being paying for what you ate. Which is the social norm where i'm from. And where i am now. Even with mates.

I think both things can be true.

Yes, I would have expected the voucher to come off the total bill - and I'd be a bit miffed if it didn't. Would I be annoyed enough to post about it on the internet? No I wouldn't - I'd just chalk it up to experience and let it go.

Also, a lot would depend on personal circumstances. Is this person really on his uppers? Is using the voucher in this way the difference between going out for a curry or not? Is it for you? Does he do this stupid shit regularly (but he's your mate anyway)? I have a friend like that - constantly doing stuff that to everyone else looks unreasonable, but he's been my friend for yonks, I love him and it's just part of who he is. His poor decision making makes quite good entertainment, so on balance, it's excellent value for his friends.

So either you all "pay" £35 each or you all pay £22 each?

I'm in the "how much aggro is £12 worth to this friendship?" camp.

With hindsight, how your mate used his voucher maybe should have been clarified in advance.

If money is getting tight for any of you, that's a different conversation.

Many moons ago I went for a curry in an excellent Birmingham curry house with some "workmates". When it came to paying they talked about doing a runner to which I was opposed and then did. I just sat there expecting the worse. The owner was remarkably zen about the whole thing, I paid my part of the bill and left in peace. Runners weren't unusual apparently.

I need to know more about this 'voucher' before I can have an opinion.

Are we talking about a 30% off voucher code/ token from the local paper? Or are we talking about a £30 voucher he has been given for his birthday? The former is a thing for the group for everyone to benefit from regardless of who finds it, the latter is essentially his money.

2nd issue - how friends/work colleagues split a bill.....totally separate. A universal truth tends to be that those with more expensive tastes (or heavy drinkers) tend to favour straight bill splitting. Personally if I know I've eaten/drunk more than my share I prefer to pay the extra, especially if there is a big disparity between those there.

Ok some clarity
Mate1 multi millionaire. Retired 50yr old. Nicest guy in the world.
Mate2 probably on £40k pa ish. Married, kids, mtg, good friend, not rich, not poor.
Me. £12kpa as a shop assistant.

No this is not regular thing.
Yes, we only went as he had said voucher.

The extras the other 2 had were more poppadoms, and beers and side dishes and more expensive mains.

I have a zero alcohol driving policy so no, i am not having 2 pints to level up.

I just wanted abit of clarity. Generally the concensus is voucher off top then divide by 3. Especially as voucher man earns 3x what i do. Im not after hand outs. It is what it is, i just asked the question to guage opinion.

But these are supposed to be friends – friends don’t create an issue over £10!

Again, this assumes that £10 is a trivial amount to everyone. I have at least one friend for whom it isn't. Not long ago he owed me £25, I'd have cheerfully written it off as "it's only £25 to a mate") but he was too proud to accept that, he insisted on paying me back but I'd have to wait until payday.

Hell, I've been there. I've gone out to meals that I couldn't really afford because it's someone's birthday, maybe I was out of work at the time but just about had enough cash to shove around a bowl of chips and a pint in order to be sociable. Then the bill arrives and some prick in a sharp suit who's been downing cocktails all night announces that we'll "just" split the bill and then I'm trying to work out how to tell him to get ****ed in a diplomatic manner. Because when you're down on your luck, nothing gives your self-esteem a greater boost than having to announce that you're broke across a table of a dozen people, half of whom you've never met before.

Mate1 multi millionaire. Retired 50yr old. Nicest guy in the world.

Why the actual **** is he not just going "dinner's on me tonight, lads" rather than having mate 2 resort to discount vouchers?

No this is not regular thing.

You said it was at least once a month. Do we have a different understanding of "regular"?

The voucher presentation, not the Sunday night Ruby

Why the actual **** is he not just going “dinner’s on me tonight, lads” rather than having mate 2 resort to discount vouchers?

Really?

Can you not see why that's potentially condescending and awkward - not to mention interfering with the group dynamics?

But can you explain the 'voucher' properly please..

Oh, and every other month - how is the bill divided up? By what is spent by whom, or just divided in 3?

Top tip - when in a bill splitting scenario always order more than anyone else.
Alternatively just whine about overpaying for what you had.

I can't as i didn't really get a good look at it.
It wasnt a birthday present afaik. Just some handwriting on a ' with compliments' DL sized slip of paper.
Possibly a " Here's a voucher for you to use next time" from a previous visit, or maybe a " we are sorry your meal was slow / cold / wrong, so here is a voucher as compo" type of thing.

Given, as previously mentioned, the quality of the food and service i suspect the latter.

Usual procedures is split equally. I always get shafted as i always drive amd im not a pig. 5ft 11 and 76kg. 33im waist so i dont eat alot or drink drive plus liquor coffee etc

Was the voucher a fixed amount or a % of the total bill? If it was the latter then voucher guy possibly profited off you and is a dick

I can’t as i didn’t really get a good look at it.

We are at an impasse then - if it was a £30 voucher, it was effectively his money and he therefore paid his third fair and square....well as fair and square and dividing a bill in 3 regardless is normally.

If it was a 30% off you next meal style voucher, he's been a dick.

Again - if you go dutch or not is a different matter. If it's what the 3 of you normally do, I'd struggle to see why it's a concern only this time.

if it was a £30 voucher, it was effectively his money and he therefore paid his third fair and square….well as fair and square and dividing a bill in 3 regardless is normally.

Completely disagree with that. If I had a voucher I wouldn’t demand that friends come with me to let me have my free meal. I would however help everyone have a discounted meal.

Never mind that he spent more than £30 anyway

Voucher or not, the OP admits he regularly gets shafted when the bill split comes round.

Need to sort that. Just state something like 'right lads/lasses, i'll pay for my own as im not drinking'.

Voucher or not, the OP admits he regularly gets shafted when the bill split comes round.

Need to sort that. Just state something like ‘right lads/lasses, i’ll pay for my own as im not drinking’.

This too, I wouldn't expect someone not drinking to pay 'thier share', luckily when me and my mates go for a curry, the main courses are all pretty similar priced, we'll all probably be drinking rounds of cobra beer (as is the law in currry houses) a couple of bottles of pino for the ladies if present, and we might order a few sides to share round.. so it's not worth worrying about.

If someones clearly spent less, I'd insist they contribute less to the bill.

How did he come across the voucher: was it a gift intended to benefit him directly, or did it come out of the Daily Mail? There's a difference here. Morally, you can argue it both ways, since at the end of the day its just a replacement for cash (as is how he clearly interpreted it), but if it was just a freebie from whatever source, then they're only given out to encourage people to come and spend money, which he relied on you to do, so he's essentially making you pay for his voucher...

Also, alcohol should be deducted for anyone not drinking imo.

Completely disagree with that. If I had a voucher I wouldn’t demand that friends come with me to let me have my free meal.

OK - so it's your birthday and you open your card and out pops a voucher for £30 off meal at a random restaurant. You curse your stupid relatives for giving you a stupid voucher but there is it.

alternative universe - it's your birthday and your enlightened relatives pop £30 in your card in cold hard cash. Regardless, you decide that you are going to spend the cash next time you are out for a meal with your friends and visit the self same random restaurant the alternative you got vouchers for.

So mashr - would you spread the love in both of these circumstances or just the one when the money gift came in the form of a voucher? If not, why not?

I think we are all underestimating the value of friends - especially male friends.

Not sure I could pick any male friend I'd actually go out with as an all male group.

Plenty we see as couples, but they are casual friends rather than proper mates.

@Cougar - yes, many of us have been skint.

If there's only 3 of you there's no way I'd be splitting equally if there was an obvious food/drink mismatch. In this case F1 & F2 are being a**es. Voucher is irrelevant unless F2 wants to share the love.

How did 3 of you spend £100? That's a lot of extras/beers.

having said that, if you said nothing at the time, tough. If you didn't pipe up at the time there's no point dwelling on it. treat it as a learning experience and next time say something - or eat/drink more. ;o)

Do the people who only pay for what they ate ever buy their mates a drink whilst out? I fancied one I thought you might too? We all have ups n downs in life, currently Im looking at a sizeable (to me) inheritance coming my way, but I've been on my arse for 15 years. I value my true friends company and friendship way more than a few quid on a bill, but the thing here is that I am 100% sure theyd do it for me, and have done before. If he's a true friend, let it go, you never know whats around the corner.
But to be clear, i would have expected the scene to be £30 voucher off the top line, the balance split 3 ways, all decided beforehand so anyone not amenable to this situation can choose to accept or decline these terms. Seems a bit devious to drag you off your intended course cos it suits him better. Id be viewing this person in a different light after this. No one likes to feel theyre being taken for a mug, and a true mate shouldnt put you in that position. Money is the worst thing to argue over because its so black n white.

Also, if as mentioned above, the voucher was for poor food /service , why the hell would you drag two of your mates back to the same dump for round 2 of more shit food/service? Seems highly disrespectful to your friends to me. If he needed a free meal that bad he should have just gone on his own .

Cougar
But you have the luxury of being able to afford to do so. Not everyone does.

I do now. Many times in the past I didn't. I still just paid up even when a skint student, or borderline broke new parent, because I valued my friendships more than a few quid here and there.

How did 3 of you spend £100? That’s a lot of extras/beers.

£6 a beer in most of the curry houses around here. It doesn't take much drinking to build up a big bill.

5ft 11 and 76kg. 33im waist so i dont eat alot or drink drive plus liquor coffee etc

Have a go at the fatties! My BiL is about the same size as you and would bankrupt you if cost allocation was based only on size!! he could eat the £100 worth of food and save the voucher for a snack on the way home!

£6 a beer in most of the curry houses around here. It doesn’t take much drinking to build up a big bill.

Exactly, 3 beers each between 3 people and your looking at a £50 bar bill, hardly fair to ask someone not drinking to subsidise that.

The voucher presentation, not the Sunday night Ruby

Ah, I misunderstood. Apologies.

Really?

Can you not see why that’s potentially condescending and awkward – not to mention interfering with the group dynamics?

Of course I can, for reasons as I explained above. But at the point where one is a multi-millionaire and another is still stewing over ten quid four days later... ?

Usual procedures is split equally. I always get shafted

You know, I'm increasingly forming the opinion that these mates aren't. You're the lowest earner by some margin, you're the lowest eater by some margin, and they still want to split the bill equally? Either they're so comfortable that it simply hasn't occurred to them that it might be an issue - which is highly likely - or they're a pair of pricks.

I'd say something if I were you. All other things aside, it's simply not fair. This should be an easy conversation between actual mates.

would you spread the love in both of these circumstances or just the one when the money gift came in the form of a voucher? If not, why not?

Because one of those dictates the (inferior) venue and the other does not?

Just ask to split by what you spend next time.  I'm happy with splitting evenly or paying for what I ate but I'd be very unhappy if one of my friends felt uncomfortable about the amount spent but didn't feel they could say.

On the voucher I would have assumed that the voucher was just for the person who had it but if it was me personally I would have shared it with everyone.

Must be a slow work day to go through all this thread.

A lot of people take the line of just coughing up "because I valued my friendships more than a few quid here and there."

When it's a boozy lively occurence it's easy not to notice who has what and you just let it slide...but when there's only 3 people, they meet monthly and the other two still haven't noticed that one mate is subsidising their night out every time?

Surely if they equally valued the friendship they'd notice when something wasn't fair on an individual?

Yeah, the real question here is why aren't your mates clocking that you always drive and don't have any booze - and proactively suggesting you put in a bit less?

In fact, is that thoughtlessness the thing that's really annoying you?

depends a bit on the voucher imo. Freebie in the paper, yeah its shared. Birthday gift? maybe not.

This is the key for me.
If it’s a voucher that’s been given to him (as a present for instance) then it counts the same as the money in his pocket. So he’s entitled to pay his share either the voucher.
If it’s not and it’s a freebie of some kind then he takes that amount off and the remainder is all split.
Given it sounds like it was a “with compliments” voucher I’d want that taken off the top.

Especially as voucher man earns 3x what i do

This I don’t see as a factor. I earn more than some friends and less than others, this will never have any influence on bills or rounds. The exception being if someone is in genuine hardship and needs looking after, even then we wouldn’t expect the high earner to pick up the whole bill.

Because one of those dictates the (inferior) venue and the other does not?

According to the OP - voucher holder might have a different opinion - hence why he has a voucher there...

I'm surprised by the number of people saying that the OP is out of order and should suck it up. Eg:

But these are supposed to be friends – friends don’t create an issue over £10!

Yeah it might be taking the piss a bit, but worth losing a friendship over?

The point here is that miladdo2 is the one who has screwed it up by being a prize bellend.

Of course I can, for reasons as I explained above. But at the point where one is a multi-millionaire and another is still stewing over ten quid four days later… ?

Most millionaires I've known would stew over 50p never mind a tenner! 🙂

I do now. Many times in the past I didn’t. I still just paid up even when a skint student, or borderline broke new parent, because I valued my friendships more than a few quid here and there.

If you paid up as a skint student, you might have been poor but you weren't skint. If you were skint you wouldn't have been in a restaurant in the first place.

Fifteen years ago I'd maxed out every credit card (well over ten grand, probably nearer 15), was way out of the back of my overdraft, had run out of favours with any friends who might sub me money and was - quite literally - raiding a piggy bank of coppers in order to buy food a few days ahead of my first pay cheque in months at a new job. Tell me again about that "only" £10 between friends?

Money is like oxygen. It's easy to be blasé about it until you don't have any.

Most millionaires I’ve known would stew over 50p never mind a tenner! 🙂

Well, yes. How do you think they became millionaires?!

Im with cougar on this, i think you need to have a word with them, tell em how you feel. Real mates would be embarassed to have put you in that position. It should be an easy convo between people who value each other.

Usual procedures is split equally. I always get shafted as i always drive amd im not a pig. 5ft 11 and 76kg. 33im waist so i dont eat alot or drink drive plus liquor coffee etc

Can i quickly check, are you just driving yourself or the other two as well?

If the former then I think your mates are being a little out of order. If the latter then your mates are being prize ****s.

Real mates would be embarassed to have put you in that position.

Quite.

And as evidenced here, it's easy to lose sight of "it's only..." if you're flush. Today I'm far from rich but we're OK. My bank balance isn't going up, but it's not going down either.

So long as there wasn't a massive imbalance I'd be happy to split a bill with good friends who were of equal or better standing. If I knew someone was struggling though, it would be short-sighted to even suggest it and put them in an awkward position.

your mate sounds like a grade a van-ker

expecting you all to go this place so he can have a £5 meal whilst you all pay more

chuck the voucher in and then split it

or next time tell him to go to the curry place on his own and sit like a loner and eat your 30 quid curry on yourown you arsehole