[Closed] Am I being a snob?

The new private schools are people sending their children to the local state school and getting extra tuition or spending the money saved on worthwhile things to help them.

Private schools IMO don't provide a well balanced and well rounded education in the way that comprehensives do. At a comprehensive you learn life skills ( dealing with chavs?) rather more than you would at a private school.

Academically ( according to my father - a retired school inspector) most kids do the same at private or state schools - at the very top they might get stretched more - those who are in the middle do worse - as they are left struggling at the bottom of the class in private schools but would be comfortably in the middle in state schools.

I went to a comprehensive in Glasgow. I got bullied and was given the option of of going private. I stayed at the state school and I still think I made the correct decision.

YTou pays your money and takes your choice.

[i]Private schools IMO don't provide a well balanced and well rounded education [/i]

Biggest load of twaddle you've ever spouted (and there's some stiff contenders in your back catalogue).

Stop getting your opinions from Tom Brown's schooldays, otherwise Ill just have to start citing Grange Hill with respect to my opinion of comprehensives.

"dealing with chavs": a vital life skill necessary for developing a well rounded education? FFS? grow up and get that chip off you shoulder.

I had two cats, brother and sister, called "Axel" and "Rosie".

Just change your kid's name to Morpheus and she'll fit right in.

Stoner - that is not my opinion but that of someone who has been in education at a senior level for 40 yrs - a real expert. There is more to schooling than acedemic results. A more rounded and balanced education - a big generalisation but in large it holds true.

Again I hate to agree with TJ (twice in a week!?) but generalisations and stereotypes tend to come from a real trend.

[i]There is more to schooling than acedemic results[/i]

You're joking right? I'm not sending my kids to school to turn-out like the artful dodger.

I went to a comprehensive in Glasgow. I got bullied

Now I do understand better...

Easy there stoner if your not careful you mght look like the one with the chip on the shoulder.
No doubt good priate schools provide a better academic education and make your child much more likely to acieve a higher earning career later in life. Having taught at Uni's as well as schools I can tel you that it is easy to spot privately educated kids as they are much more confident in there views (to the point of arrogance) even if they are wrong.
I wouldnt want to comment any further cause I have a large portion of chips with extra gravy on my shoulder.

Out of interest have you looked at the schools results and made a decsion based on that?

What's a Croydon facelift?

In my experience and I apparently went to one of the best comps in birmingham state schools are a load of crap. The teachers through no fault of their own have no authority and definitely no respect. The kids have no real guidance through problems that may arise with school subjects and other issues. I genuinely feel that my school let me down with my education an I didnt get to do subjects that I would have excelled at and instead was forced into doing things that I was rubbish at and ended up with a bitter taste in my mouth and bad results.

By contrast my wife went to private school and thought it was great.

We will be trying to send both of our kids to private schools as we want to give them the best possible educational start in life.

people called jeremy always get bullied at school, call it natural selection if you will...

There is more to education than gaining acedemic qualifications.

I am absolutly sure that the life experiences I gained at school have stood me in good stead all my life.

I come from a nice comfy middleclass family and we lived in a comfy middle class enclave. I am sure that the contact with people for other backgrounds was extremely useful to me - interestingly one of my friends who came from a working class family (but went to the same school) would rather have gone to the private school. As he lived in the council housing and had all the working class folk as neighbours he feels he did not need that wider life experience in the way that perhaps was useful to me.

Check your private school very carefully - private schools vary greatly in the quality of their education - from appalling to good same as state schools.

My school had and still does have the best facilities of any school in the city - better than the private ones by far.

TJ bullied at school, now it all becomes clear... ;o)

I went to a private school (scholarship) and loved it, my brother went to the local comp and also loved it. Both went to good uni's and I would say are pretty well rounded individuals (most of the time). I would say that the chances of your child are much more heavily influenced by your input and attitudes than the school they go to. However, I have a few friends who teach, most of which in local comps and even though they are very good teachers their main gripe is that half the time they are social workers not teachers. Not all comps are made equal though, some are great, some aren't, and the same can be said for the private sector.

I agree with TJ

By contrast my wife went to private school and thought it was great.

By contrast I went to one of the average comps in my area, did great, enjoyed it, teachers had a decent level of control and respect and I came out a decent (I think!) human with useful grad and post-grad qualifications. There's datapoints on all sides, it's pointless quoting one way or the other.

My comp school let me find my own way and supported me, didn't force me to do subjects I didnt want to and had a decent selection of things I wanted to do. From that school (which had been lowest in the area 3 years before I got there) I and a large number of my friends got into one of the top 4 colleges in the country with no problems. The school had its fair share of idiots that would tie cats to train tracks and set fire to them, parents who'd turn up at the gates with cigs and chips for their kids etc, but the teachers had control and the head was very much in command.

You can't simply say "state schools are all crap and private schools are better" - thats not the case, they fall either side of the line and you need to inspect the school for what it is, not it's badge. I know a few mates who've been private schooled and in general they tend to have supreme self confidence, be very good in "upper class" situations (black tie events, giving presentations, etc etc) and use that confidence to deal with chavs pretty well, though they tend to show very little compassion to the "lower classes". I know of at least one that has been seriously let down by their school and had to be removed from it (learning difficulties) and was essentially shunned for struggling.

Private school all the way for my child when he comes (4 weeks to go!).

As HTTP404 hinted at, it's not so much the standard of education, its the other kids that they have to mix with and the way they were brought up. I think it's possible that teaching standards aren't that much different between state and your average private but thats just a small part of of a childs education.

I went to both private and state schools (parents got skint in the last recession) and the difference was incredible. From classes of 16 in private I was in a class of 30, relief teachers seemed to outnumber permanent teachers and doing well at school was something to be embarrased about. Pretty sure I would be a bit further ahead in life had I stayed at the private school.

Last point, those that think private schools are full of hooray henry types, it's not actually true. Maybe at Eton etc but at most of the other independant schools they're just ordinary kids whose parents either have money, or like in my parents case and just as common, didn't have any money but made sacrifices to give the best to their child.

In response to the original question, yes.

I learned to deal with scuzzbuckets at my comprehensive school, and I managed it. It was however very stressful and quite depressing. After I got to university and ended up in a professional career, I've not really needed those skills and I do feel relieved that I don't have to worry so much about it.

Most of my friends at school were laid back country folk who didn't care much about academic achievement, and at the time I was grateful for the change of perspective. However now I wish I'd had an environment which encouraged me to achieve more - but not in the form of external pressure. If I'd known more people who were into science or technology (or even economics and business) and I had the opportunity to pursue those things, I'd have got more done and probably have achieved more in life by now.

I could however have got the stimulation and indulgence I needed at home or outside of school tho. That may even have been better than doing things in school.

"We will be trying to send both of our kids to private schools as we want to give them the best possible educational start in life."

Whilst not want to remove your freedom to choose how you educate your children but hasn't it been shown that overall the state education system provides better results than the private education system? Obviously this has to be corrected for selction bias and stuff as the raw figures would give a missleading impression.

My family's experience of private education is somewhat different to yours. Myself and my sisters went to the local comprehensive and my cousins from a few streets away were privately educated. In terms of further and higher education my sisters and I faired much better than my cousins.

In short some schools are good and some are bad irrespective of whether they are state or private.

A study in the states found that wanting your kid to go to a better school was as important to their educational achievement as them actually going to the school of choice, i.e. students who were denied a place at the 'better' school did as well at the worst school as they would have done at the better one.

A lot also depends on your child and where you live. I went to pretty much the worst school in the town (Haughton, for the Darlingtonians on here) where I underachieved, but stil got enough to go to the town's sixth form college, which is one of the best in the country. I'm sure I would have underachieved in whatever school I went to though, as I'm a big fan of doing the minimum possible just before the deadline.

"We will be trying to send both of our kids to private schools as we want to give them the best possible educational start in life".

perception is reality kids ..

And in answer to the original question - yes, but is there anything wrong with that?

" I think it's possible that teaching standards aren't that much different between state and your average private but thats just a small part of of a childs education."

Well I know that you have to be a qualified teacher to teach in the State sector but it is not a requirement in the Private sector so if I'd probably bet on the quality of teaching in a state school being higher.

"didn't have any money but made sacrifices to give the best to their child".

and again ...

So bullying doesn't take place at private schools?

I don't want to adhere to stereotypes, but I've heard/read some awful stories.

And one ex-GF of mine who went to a lesser private school got bullied for being too poor - despite her family being almost comically middle class.

I wouldn't send my children to private school on principle anyway. And do you really need to when it seems schoolkids only have to turn up to get A* grades these days? 😉

A study in the states found that wanting your kid to go to a better school was as important to their educational achievement as them actually going to the school of choice, i.e. students who were denied a place at the 'better' school did as well at the worst school as they would have done at the better one.

Or, looking at it another way, children with pushy parents get higher marks?

I'm quite amused about one of my colleagues who is Welsh and very old Labour. His wife however went to finishing school and has some interesting opinions on things.
Of their two children one goes to a private day school and the other to the local state school as they can't afford to send both. I can see some trouble being stored up for the future there.

Although there's a lot of private schools round here closing down and there's now terrible pressure on the state schools due to Jocasta and Tarquil's parents being unable to pay the day rates.

I know of parents who work mad hours to make the money to buy a house in the 'right' part of town to get into the 'best' state school, and to pay for private tutors in the subjects their kids struggle in. They'd be better off spending some time with their kids…

So Blade and Trinity make it a bad school?

You asked if you were a snob - yeah you sound like one. Dont judge a book by its cover...

I think there's a lot of truth in that chaka.

I don't think I know anyone who doesn't have that perception that private education is by definition "better"

Christ, if you could get a tax deduction for it I think there'd be a massive defection from the state system !

All those nay sayers now opting out, deciding they can now afford it 😉

imho obviously

we've just lost out on our preferred state school due to 'leakage' from the private sector.

the offered alternative is full of kids who 'aren't our class' (as well as being shabby and generally crap). when we went on a visit one fo the teachers said 'most fo the chicldren come from the infants next door (which our child doesn't attend) but we do always get a few waifs ans strays from other schools that are over subscribed'. So our child's officially a 'waif and stray'. great, thanks.

but at most of the other independant schools they're just ordinary kids

I really dont want to get dragged into this as my chips will falloff, but that is so far from being true or even slightly close to reality that it is untrue.

The simple facts are that if you go to a good private school your far more likely to become financially better off later in life irrespective of the education you get. I think this is wrong, but if I had a kid and could afford private education I might consider it. Even being a teacher myself I have considered getting a job in the private sector.

id say look at the priv schools youd be sending them to and look at the state schools youd be sending them to in particular speak to the head teachers i reckon thatll give you a much stronger sense of what will happen in the 6 years your kid will be there. some priv schools will be pants and/or run by idiots and vice versa, id say i prob agree with roundedness of comp schools but im not prejudiced against them, jst comparing my experience to my mates (all of whom are not from where i live btw)

bike analogy: would you buy a bike based solely on brand or go and try some out?

What's wrong with having a choice?

TJ - were you bullied at school for not wearing a helmet, or did you stand up to someone selling dodgy gear?
😛

OP - yeah, you do sound like a complete snob.

miketually knows what's what. 😉

In answer to the original question " Am I being a snob ? ", the answer is yes, a massive one. If you really think that your childs' education is going to be affected because their peers have cropped hair or names from cheesy vampire flicks, then I'd suggest that the biggest obstacle to their development might be your attitude to the outside world, not the effect of the outside world upon them.

Loosen up mate.

The other question is do you go private from the start or wait till secondary school... not sure what would be the best, they might not fit in at a private school later in life, I dont know. But I would imagine that you could help them far more easily with primary work and keep them up to speed (basic English and maths is really the key) and then maybe go private later if money is tight.

Of course if I was in charge I'd ban private health and education on my first day.

didn't know either andym, had to google it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croydon_Facelift

What's wrong with having a choice?

IMO, because "choice" is Tory code for "buying a better future for my child than most of the rest of society can afford".

Just curious - who has now adult kids that have come through both systems?

The simple facts are that if you go to a good private school your far more likely to become financially better off later in life irrespective of the education you get.

But is that down the the education you recieve or to the attitudes instilled at home?

I've taught kids who've come to us from every state school around and from most of the private ones too (paying for education doesn't seem quite such a good idea once the state sector provides an outstanding sixth form).

Generally, you'd struggle to tell which kids had come from the 'good' state schools, the 'bad' state schools and from the private schools, though the sample is rather self-selecting obviously, given that we only get high-achieving kids. Generally though, our very best students come from the 'bad' state schools and some who arrive with fantastic results from other schools do rather worse than would be expected.

"What's wrong with having a choice?"

I don't think that anyone has said that there was. Even TJ ended his first post with the word choice. Plenty of challenge on the perception that a private education is better than a state one though.

I went to a scabby Welsh comprehensive...and my 5yr old lad looks cute with a No2 all over haircut....what tatoos would the Singletrack massive suggest I get?...oh and some names for my two pitbull puppies would be good too!

Snobby.....moi?

Why are you looking down at kids who have the misfortune to be associated with mad parents? Not nice of you is it.

In answer to the original question " Am I being a snob ? ", the answer is yes, a massive one. If you really think that your childs' education is going to be affected because their peers have cropped hair or names from cheesy vampire flicks, then I'd suggest that the biggest obstacle to their development might be your attitude to the outside world, not the effect of the outside world upon them.

Loosen up mate.

If you think your childs NOT going to be influenced by the people around him/her (and although appearance and name are not direct indicators of the type of person, they're certainly a good hint) then I can't possibly imagine the world that you live in, but it's not the real one.

Try leaving politics out of the equation and make a balanced judgement.

And, no, I didn't go to private school, just a London one where there were no expectations other than the attitude "forget an education cos you'll be getting married and having kids".

A study in the states found that wanting your kid to go to a better school was as important to their educational achievement as them actually going to the school of choice, i.e. students who were denied a place at the 'better' school did as well at the worst school as they would have done at the better one.

How on Earth do you test that???

A higher percentage of children from Private school go onto University than Public school. Why else would the Government be trying to make Uni more accessable to Private school students???

Mike thats an interesting point of view, your sixth form right? When I was working at a Uni you could pick privately educated kids easily, confidance bordering on arrogance.

But is that down the the education you recieve or to the attitudes instilled at home?

Well I have no idea as I suspect that most people who send their kids to private schools went to them themselves (as they have been more succesful and can afford it). Its all circular who knows. As you say though high achieving kids from state schools tend to be brighter than kids achieving the same grades at private schools... What it tells us is that state schools arent as good.

How on Earth do you test that???

Analysis of their entry scores with results, and comparing with students who did get into the 'better' school. It was a big study carried out in Chicago, and is in the Freakonomics book.

A higher percentage of children from Private school go onto University than Public school. Why else would the Government be trying to make Uni more accessable to Private school students???

?

The government is trying to get public school students into uni, and attempting to force the universities to drop entry standards because they can't get those standards in sufficient numbers from the target schools - hence http://www.cynicalbastards.com/ubs/.

If you think your childs NOT going to be influenced by the people around him/her (and although appearance and name are not direct indicators of the type of person, they're certainly a good hint)

So because someone has short hair or an odd name, they're going to be a negative influence ??????

Could I suggest that Sir is talking twaddle ?

Yeah, typo on the last one, should have been Public.

Universities themselves actually want to be able to take into account the background and education expereiance of kidsand offerlowr entry requirements to less well off and kids who wentto shit schools because they want the brightestkids not the ones wih the best grades, because they know who is likely to be most succesful

So because someone has short hair or an odd name, they're going to be a negative influence ??????

Could I suggest that Sir is talking twaddle ?

You can suggest what you like, and there are often exceptions as per your thinking, but these are indicators of a slightly odd background (parents, peers) that doesn't encourage learning or value academic achievement or relative conformity (which is required to progress in school). I'd suggest that you're talking twaddle, but your opinion has some merit, but IMO it is the exception rather than the rule.

Do a bit of social experimentation, nip down to your local comprehensive - line up the students, group them by "normal hair and name" and "stupid hair and name", then go back in 5 years and get their results - while I cant prove it (I'm only going from my own experience) I suggest you'll find a trend 😉

Parents are the biggest influence, a child will suceed if the home attitude is good. Look for a school where the head want to create rounded members of society not just exam machines.

Universities themselves actually want to be able to take into account the background and education expereiance of kidsand offerlowr entry requirements to less well off and kids who wentto shit schools because they want the brightestkids not the ones wih the best grades, because they know who is likely to be most succesful

Took me 3 read throughs to follow that!

Universities have plenty of sway in their entry grades at present and always have, and always *were* able to pick the students most capable of achieving and offer them a place regardless. What they dont like is being forced to take students with low entry grades who clearly cant and wont achieve, just to make enough cash via student fees to pay for the decent ones. I've been watching this creep in slowly from the inside, for the past 5 or 6 years over a couple of institutions.

I have not read all of this. "Blade" is a great name.

Mike thats an interesting point of view, your sixth form right? When I was working at a Uni you could pick privately educated kids easily, confidance bordering on arrogance.

It is, again, a self-selecting sample - the kids whose parents are really, really arrogant wouldn't dream of sending tarquin to the state sixth form.

I went to Durham University, so I've met more than my fair share of arrogant public school boys and girls 🙂

As you say though high achieving kids from state schools tend to be brighter than kids achieving the same grades at private schools... What it tells us is that state schools arent as good.

Not always. I think they're better in some areas than in others. Private schools seem to tailor their programme of study to individual students much better than most state schools, so kids are taken out of subjects in which they're struggling and are given extra help in others. State schools have much more set from on high that they have to aim for, so often don't get that luxury.

Interestingly, a local secondary school which has gone from struggling to one of the best in the country takes a similar approach to letting students drop subjects, and has evening homework classes at the end of the schhol day much as many private schools have prep classes. Those students do brilliantly while at that school, but often struggle when they move higher up the education system because they lack independent learning skills.

If anyone wonders why kids go bad, then the fact that they are demonised by some, at the age of five, for having short hair or unconvential names might go some way to explaining things.

I have not read all of this. "Blade" is a great name.

Has someone suggested it on the baby name thread yet?

Coffeeking has a valid point and I think that there'll be more than a few on here that agree but would rather ride a singlespeed than admit it!

I'm on it: http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/name-our-2-day-old-kid-shortlist/page/2?replies=58#post-117143

[i]Those students do brilliantly while at that school, but often struggle when they move higher up the education system because they lack independent learning skills. [/i]

A good point and agrees with my fathers experience.

If anyone wonders why kids go bad, then the fact that they are demonised by some, at the age of five, for having short hair or unconvential names might go some way to explaining things.

Not really demonised, but really it's down to the parents attitude and thought processes how the kids turn out. If you cant see the link between the parents naming/styling attitudes and their learning attitudes then fair enough, but I do. If I were in charge of teaching them I'd never inflict that view on them, it wouldnt be fair to pre-judge and treat them differently because there are exceptions to every rule and all need to be given the same chances, but I'd rather not risk my kids in a melting pot with more Blades than Pauls. Each to his own, thats what makes the world go round.

ridethelakes - I ride SS too 🙂

At the end of the day, you have to choose what you believe to be best for your child.

In my opinion/experience, if you can afford to send your kid to private school, they'll probably not come to any harm. But, if you have to scrimp and save to send them, they'll probably resent it (when all the other kids take their golden ponies skiing at Easter on the school trip and your kid stays at home), especially if you have to work extra hours to pay for it, so see them less.

A lot depends upon your child. My eldest (aged 5) is very studious and serious, and she'll do fine whatever school she goes to. My youngest (aged 3) likes jumping off stuff and thinks farts and mooning people are funny; she'll do brilliantly too, but we're more worried about the influence other kids could have on her at school. 🙂

Allow me the pleasure of introducing you to Blade... Laser... Blazer...

mike - very well put.

Not really demonised, but really it's down to the parents attitude and thought processes how the kids turn out. If you cant see the link between the parents naming/styling attitudes and their learning attitudes then fair enough, but I do.

That's also an argument in favour of it not mattering which school the child goes to or who else goes there 🙂

In response to the OP, yes you are being a massive snob. 😛

Have not read all the posts but for the OP. If you have found the school is not academically acheiving then you should go private.If however it is because you object to the kids names and the dodgy looking parents then you are being a snob. I think state school topped up with tutors and good support from the house would be best way to go.IMO

The simple facts are that if you go to a good private school your far more likely to become financially better off later in life irrespective of the education you get.

Hmm, that's not a useful statistic, due to other influencing factors. Only wealthier parents can afford to send their kids to private school. So that means that those kids success could be due to better educated parents perhaps passing on more knowledge, having more money spent on them out of school (ie private tuition, educational holidays etc etc) or the fact that wealthier parents might have higher powered jobs to discuss over the dinner table. If my parents had been entrepreneurs or business people then I might well have had the ambition and understanding to be one myself, hence making more money. Every kid knows a bit about their parents' line of work, don't they? Especially by age 16 or so.

A better comparison would be to compare the achievements/earnings of kids at private and state schools [i]from families with similar means or educational background[/i].

"Blade" is a brilliant name, although perhaps not for a human.
"Psycho" is also a great name, one of our goldfish is called that.

If we're judging people by names, I think the private school types have some dodgy names to rival even the most inventive of chavs.

Ticky, Tassy, Biff, Buff, Jocelyn (for a boy), Bunny, Xennan, Xav (probably short for Xavier), Jonty, Mehitablel, Malaika to name but a few of the 'upper crust people I've been acquainted with.

HTTP404 - we just did a similar thing.

We were at local primary, and had been determined to make it work. Heck I was even chair of finance for the governors...All the neighbors go, all the kids mates still go...

over the past three+ years, the school has failed to improve, if anything behavior and expectations of achievement were going down. This was brought up again and again by parents and at governors.

We just decided that we wanted out children to go to a school where they felt safer, and had higher expectations (of behavior mainly). We are third family to leave, and since our leaving (about a month ago), another 4 families have approached us and said they are trying to get out.

We managed to get them into a very small state infant school 3miles away, a feeder to a good juniors and (much better) secondary. We are VERY fortunate to have got the places - for 30 places each year there are usually 50+ applicants, many of whom are saving the cost of private edcation, and go private if they dont get in. We needed two places in two different years...

I have to say, the change has been everything we expected - not easy - but good. The boys behavior is being challenged - just basics like not shouting out, lining up neatly, being quiet around the school etc. They are already going on near weekly out of classroom trips. It says a lot that one of our lads went from 'top set' and one of the best behaved to being lowest set and being challenged on basic behavior...

I am an ex teacher myself, and it confirmed so much of what I know about our UK education system - it is two tier, it is academic results orientated (so missing the 'building block' of personal development and social skills), and it is dominated by the 'lowest common denominator' behavior and expectations wise (parents and staff).

I am glad we made the move, but running two cars and the extra time is a bind. What price a better start in life though?

I went to a prep school and then public schools (as in 2 of these [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headmasters%27_and_Headmistresses%27_Conference ]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headmasters%27_and_Headmistresses%27_Conference[/url]). I didn't really fit in but did OK academically and left at 16 to go to a local college. I fitted in well enough despite the presence of girls.... There has been quite a lowering of prestige for most public schools in recent years; my Grandfather went to Harrow 100 years ago and that was a different experience to what it would be today. Good fee paying schools offer a lot more than an average state school does but better to enjoy one of those than to struggle in a fee paying one.

A better comparison would be to compare the achievements/earnings of kids at private and state schools from families with similar means or educational background.

That wouldnt be a fair comparison though as you'd just be looking at a minority of kids at a state school. But your main point is of course correct it may well not be the education (in school) at all, but statistics show if you wnt rich kids send em to private school.