[Closed] Am I a twunt? Buying a house content.

For £250 against the price of a house, I'd probably just suck it up but remember not to buy him a beer if you ever meet him in the local

You're right, it wasn't discussed so he's chancing his arm. You'll probably let him off for an easy life but doesn't stop you being angry about it.

Is that it?!?!
Let it go mate. A week after moving in, you'll have forgotten in anyway.

You let kindness get in the way of a house sale and left yourself exposed to this happening, and sounds like the vendor took the opportunity to avoid paying. Humans are tossers.

What John says. £250, against the price of a house, is nothing but a short-lived, bad taste in the mouth. Assuming you still want the house, forget about it.

Yup, still want the house etc I just wanted to make sure I was right before I break out the bombers.

I'm not going to loose the house over it but it's one of those little things that winds me up. With hind sight I should have left it to him but that's the way it goes.

I will just wee in his shoes when I find out where he wants all his post forwarding to.

can you change your offer price by £250?

I would have presumed that if [b]your[/b] lender was insisting on additional surveys, then you would be the one to be paying for them ?

I've never known a Vendor pay anything towards a structural survey, as the surveyor will be working for you, it's your bill to pay.

Lets face it you were never going to get the £250 back. What if the engineer had recommended changes that the vendor couldn't afford so the sale fell through, do you expect he would pay up them.

Still £250 is fa in the scheme of things.

For £250 against the price of a house, I'd probably just suck it up but remember not to buy him a beer if you ever meet him in the local

^ summed up for me in the first post

nealglover - Member
I would have presumed that if your lender was insisting on additional surveys, then you would be the one to be paying for them ?

I've never known a Vendor pay anything towards a structural survey, as the surveyor will be working for you, it's your bill to pay.

Even though the structural survey is required due to his wayward alterations?

It was the home buyer surveyor that requested a structural survey as he was unable to value the property as he couldn't determine if it was structurally sound or not.

It would be the same for any prospective buyer.

You said your lender insisted on a structural survey before agreeing to lend ?

So the surveyor works for you. Not the vendor.

Our lender refused to lend against the property until a structural survey had been carried out.

To be fair what I should have written was that the home buyer surveyor requested a structural survey as he was unable to value the property as he couldn't determine if it was structurally sound or not.

Homebuyers report is the bare minimum, any extra surveys to be carried out are your responsibility.

Your having the survey done to protect your investment.

Tucks bombers back under bed.

Anyway, he agreed to go halves, so we did.

I didn't agree to go halves on the second survey.

He owes me £250 irrespective of who's surveying what.

So you can all sod off!

[quote=john_drummer ]For £250 against the price of a house, I'd probably just suck it up but remember not to buy him a beer if you ever meet him in the local

THIS its a bit shit [ for both of you to be fair] but that little a sum over a house purchase is best filed under suck it up and move on.

As neal notes they were working for you so , assuming you wanted a mortgage you needed the survey, and , assuming they wanted to sell, they had to fix it. You then needed the second one to get the mortgage so paying for one each seems pretty reasonable in the grand scheme of things

Play hardball and ask for £250 off if you really want to.

You presumably included the arrangement on the survey cost within the offer for the house so its quite clear what the obligation is?

I once took all the light bulbs from a flat I sold to a dickhead who messed us around and price chipped us at the last minute.

Chase the 250 and the first thing you'll need to do on picking up the keys is go to the lighting section at B&Q.

Can't you just wipe your bum with his mail before forwarding it on?

Can't believe you've managed to get worked up over £250 in the process of buying a house! Sorry - move on.

Anyway, he agreed to go halves, so we did.

I didn't agree to go halves on the second survey.

He owes me £250 irrespective of who's surveying what.

So you can all sod off!

Ask something, don't like the responses, tell people to sod off.

Charming.

As others have said, be thankful everything with the repairs have been made and signed off.

It's 250 quid.....in the grand scale of things when it comes to house buying...bugger all.

That doesn't sount too protracted, or expensive yet.

#seenworse

Pants but move along.

growinglad - Member
Ask something, don't like the responses, tell people to sod off.

Charming.

I couldn't find the tongue in cheek smiley.

As I said earlier, I'm not going to loose the house over it it was the principal of it that frustrated me.

I think qwerty has the right idea.

I'm surprised he agreed to go halves on the first survey but as he then went on to pay for the second one (I wouldn't have done in his position, it's your risk, but he's obviously in a more pressing situation) I think you're more than square and probably a little up on the deal.

He is a d1ck for not paying up as agreed, but I'd be happy that for a mere £500, you've got him to pay for another survey, sort the issue, and you have a possible claim against the surveyor if there are further issues.

Should always be in writing. After being messed around by our sellers we were very picky with them, so even demanded they buy us 2 new light bulbs as they were missing. We also billed them for removing an old bed and washing machine, which we asked to be removed and agreed but was still there when we moved in.

I decided to go at the whole house buying thing with my head not my heart and we ended up with a brilliant deal. I wasn't prepared to be even slightly flexible with money, got 15k nocked of a 150k house after turning down two of there alternate offers (145 and 140).
The reason i did my research and new it was multiple relatives living apart selling a deceased parents house just before christmas. I actually regret not offering less.

I decided to go at the whole house buying thing with my head not my heart and we ended up with a brilliant deal. I wasn't prepared to be even slightly flexible with money, got 15k nocked of a 150k house after turning down two of there alternate offers (145 and 140).
The reason i did my research and new it was multiple relatives living apart selling a deceased parents house just before christmas. I actually regret not offering less.

And with buyers attitudes like that, is it any wonder the vendors try to dick you around over the small things?

They didn't have to accept the offer. A house is "worth" what somebody is prepared to pay for it, not some made up fantasy number in the vendor's (or agent's) head.

Although having said that, I recently bought a house from somebody I know (and trust), and sure as hell wasn't putting in the cheeky offer the lawyer suggested at first. I have to live in this town !

But demanding they buy two new lightbulbs is the work of satan.

For £250 against the price of a house, I'd probably just suck it up

For £250 against the price of a house, people will expect you to suck it up and so will try to pull your pants down at every opportunity. See also, weddings. I'd be pursuing it as it's what you agreed.

Also, assuming that you were going halves on a second survey (which you didn't agree to), if he's drafted in someone else who's cheaper than the first guy then he'd still owe you money as you paid more for the first one, no?

Lightbulbs? Think yourself lucky...

This house we are in had an inbuilt bunk in a small room. It was torn out and chucked. Additionally the shed that was 'empty' and 'had not been used for 12 years' that was buried behind 6' high nettles turned out to need three tip runs of our people carrier to empty the junk they had hidden in there when the cleaned the house to market it.

I bought a house once where they had shown house with all nice door handles and silver electrical sockets etc. When we got keys, all had been changed to cheapest white....When I sold that one, we got a solicitors letter a YEAR later as the attic loo cistern had leaked, and they wanted recompense... 😆

We also, the night before exchange and the day we moved to Scotland, had some 'friends' who were buying our Sheffield house call us and say that money had fallen through, and that they were £5k short and would we drop house price, or they would have to walk away...

I think the seller has acted quire reasonably given he has picked up the cost for the 2nd survey. And £250 is change in the grand scheme of a house purchase. Just let it go.....shake hands and buy him that beer

+1 for you should count yourself lucky he paid anything towards any surveys that were for your benefit.

decided to go at the whole house buying thing with my head not my heart and we ended up with a brilliant deal. I wasn't prepared to be even slightly flexible with money, got 15k nocked of a 150k house after turning down two of there alternate offers (145 and 140).
The reason i did my research and new it was multiple relatives living apart selling a deceased parents house just before christmas. I actually regret not offering less.

Classy. How did you do this 'research'?

I bought my house from a bank (the deceased owner had done an equity release on it).

I enjoyed pushing them as hard as I could as there is zero need to use your heart where banks are concerned. (£43k off a £435k house).

£250 is a drop in the ocean when it comes to moving as you know. Suck it up. Move on, enjoy your new house. 🙂

had some 'friends' who were buying our Sheffield house call us and say that money had fallen through, and that they were £5k short and would we drop house price, or they would have to walk away...

I had that once; the morning of exchange. I told them to stick it.

Funnily enough, they found the cash fairly soon.

Mind you, they were not so cheeky as to get me to pay half of a structural survey that they wanted. That would have been barefaced.

Cougar - Moderator
For £250 against the price of a house, people will expect you to suck it up and so will try to pull your pants down at every opportunity. See also, weddings. I'd be pursuing it as it's what you agreed.
Also, assuming that you were going halves on a second survey (which you didn't agree to), if he's drafted in someone else who's cheaper than the first guy then he'd still owe you money as you paid more for the first one, no?

Exactly!!!

I'm still £100 odd in credit so to speak. Not to mention the additional surveys and work are due to his haphazard ways. If I'd have carried out the work on my property it would have been done to regs with the appropriate paperwork etc in place.

Why should I pay to survey repairs to his house??? If it had fallen through I've just funded the whole process for the next person who comes along.

Someone mentioned earlier to knock it off the price of the house but we agreed the price of the house prior to any surveys etc as I expect most people do? Anyway, will put it down to experience and wipe my bum on his post.

Mind you, they were not so cheeky as to get me to pay half of a structural survey that they wanted. That would have been barefaced.

Bastards!

@ the OP, out of interest, how much is the house you're buying?
FWIW £250 is not a lot in relation to how much you're spending, but it is a matter of principle, but I dont really see why the vendor should have had to have paid for it, given it was your lendors that requested the survey. But based on your logic, you should be going halves with the second survey, so I'd say you were even.

grum - Member

decided to go at the whole house buying thing with my head not my heart and we ended up with a brilliant deal. I wasn't prepared to be even slightly flexible with money, got 15k nocked of a 150k house after turning down two of there alternate offers (145 and 140).
The reason i did my research and new it was multiple relatives living apart selling a deceased parents house just before christmas. I actually regret not offering less.

Classy. How did you do this 'research'?

but we agreed the price of the house prior to any surveys etc as I expect most people do?

Do you always pay the full asking price for stuff when you think there's a deal to be done?

Nope but there are limits. I think this 'anything goes' attitude when buying/selling a house is shitty. Otherwise decent people seem to think it's the one occasion where it's ok to act like an utter bastard. I don't get it.

He is a d1ck for not paying up as agreed, but I'd be happy that for a mere £500, you've got him to pay for another survey, sort the issue, [b]and you have a possible claim against the surveyor if there are further issues[/b].

The surveyor the OP paid for told him there were issues. But never went back to see if they were rectified, So no chance of claiming against him.

And the OP has no contract with the other Surveyor, as he didn't employ him, so no chance of claiming against him either.

That's why surveys should be paid for by the people that want them, and would gain from the protection they are offering. (The Buyers)

You're probably in the right but is it worth the hassle? If he gets the hump then he could be a real vengeful twunt when leaving the property.

^ exactly

You engage a surveyor, you get the survey report. You don't have to share that with anyone.

From what I can understand:

Mortgage company refuse unless structural survey done and reports OK
You arrange and ask vendor to fund half (he doesn't have to, but did agree)
Survey finds issues?
Vendor fixes?
Vendor arranges another survey to confirm fixed and asks you to pay half?

Mortgage company may be happy, but if roof starts collapsing in 8 months time, I don't see who you could have any recourse against

I wouldn't have a chance of claiming against anyone irrespective of whos paid for what, all the engineer has stated is that as far as he can see the repairs have been carried out in a competent manner and are adequate to reinstate the structural integrity of the trusses.

I wouldn't have a chance of claiming against anyone irrespective of whos paid for what, all the engineer has stated is that as far as he can see the repairs have been carried out in a competent manner and are adequate to reinstate the structural integrity of the trusses.

Of course you would (if you had employed the surveyor who did the final report)

That's why surveyors pay for professional indemnity insurance.

Because if they make a mistake and you end up having to fix something they didn't spot, or your house falls down, you can claim against them for the costs involved.

But as it stands, you have not employed a surveyor to pass the work, and have no recourse if things aren't as they appear.

I'm not sure you understand the various processes involved in buying and selling houses quite as you well as you think you do 😉

Basically people become greedy idiots when buying/selling houses. Irrationally so.

When I sold my previous house the rear elevation needed re-rendering and we had hoped to have finished it before putting it on the market, but had only got as far as the rendering and not the painting. The buyer agreed to buy on the basis that we would have it painted before exchange, which we did. Their surveyor came round to check this and the next day (the day before exchange which was a long chain and couldn't really be moved at this point without the whole thing collapsing) the buyers got in touch via the estate agent that they didn't like the colour and wanted to reduce the purchase price of the house by £700 so they could get the rear repainted in a colour of their choice. I had email evidence where i'd told them the colour it was being painted (country cream iirc) asking them to advise if this wasn't ok...

Anyway, much tooing a froing later I basically agree to give them £500 on the basis of not wanting to hold things up (after the estate agent accidentally forwarded me an email from the buyer saying [i]I[/i] was holding them to ransom...). They want to ok this with their mortgage lender, who advise any change in purchase price would require a new mortgage offer which would take 3 days... In the end I agree to give them cash with the keys (naughty naughty) and we exchange contracts. On the monday morning the estate agent rings to say that the buyers have decided they can't accept the £500 cash as they themselves are solicitors and it would be dishonest. To say I was angry would put it lightly. Sadly our cat did a massive poo in the house five minutes before we left and I didn't have time to clean it up...

£500 was less than 0.2% of the purchase price (that's the irrational bit).

I'm not sure you understand the various processes involved in buying and selling houses quite as you well as you think you do

I never said I did, and obviously I don't understand it anywhere near as well as you do.

So what would you recommend? Write the original £250 off and pay him for the second survey? Or would that be a waste of time as I didn't employ him?

If the roof collapsed in three months time who would make the claim? The bank, me or the vendor?

Who's liable for it? Me, the builder, the bank, the second engineer, the vendor or no one? It would be nice to know now so I can put it right before it's too late.

Thanks.

Let him keep the £250 but read all his post that turns up after the move instead of RTSing it all. The last laugh is yours, I think you'll agree.

If the roof collapsed in three months time who would make the claim? The bank, me or the vendor?

You; it's your house

Who's liable for it? Me, the builder, the bank, the second engineer, the vendor or no one?

You; it's your house.

If you had paid for the second survey, you should have some recourse. Oops.

Basically people become greedy idiots when buying/selling houses. Irrationally so.

This is the thing - it seems like we've developed a culture where it's considered ok to behave like an arsehole when it comes to buying and selling houses. 😕

You; it's your house.

If you had paid for the second survey, you should have some recourse. Oops.

+1, sorry

Once the house is yours, you are liable for any repairs that need doing to it (even if caused by work done before you moved in)

You can "insure" against this happening, by employing a surveyor to do a full structural survey of the house prior to buying it.

Once that survey is done, and any defects are pointed out, you can negotiate with the seller based on the content of the survey.

If the seller rectifies the faults found, you pay the surveyor to revisit. They inspect the work done, and report again.

At a later date if problems occur that should have been spotted by the Surveyor, then you have the right to make a negligence claim against them for the cost of rectification.

In your specific situation, I don't think the seller had any reason to pay for your survey, or the second one. (So I would write off the £250)

I would also pay for the original surveyor (who works for you) to go back and inspect the work carried out.

That way, you have recourse if there are further problems down the line.

This might be a house up North..In which case the £250 could be a kitchen extension, new conservatory, and still leave enough change for a fish supper and a trip to the flicks with the missus....

DrP

Who's liable for it? Me, the builder, the bank, the second engineer, the vendor or no one? It would be nice to know now so I can put it right before it's too late.

This isn't too late to rectify.

First, forget the £250. It's not sufficiently relevant to the real concern here: will the roof fall down.

Second, you need to decide whether the repaired roof, which a surveyor has OK'd to the satisfaction of your mortgage company, is really of sufficient concern to you.

If no, then buy the house and get stuck into the decorating.

If yes, the you need to have an ability to recover your costs of fixing the roof.

[b]Insurance[/b]
You could rely on your house insurance - your only loss will be the excess and any increased premiums. Or you could take out separate insurance against this (either you pay the premium or you convince your seller to pay).

Or you could try to recover from the builder and/or the surveyor:
[b]
Contractual[/b]
To be able to recover from the builder/surveyor, you need to have a contractual relationship with them. Since you don't have that today, you'll need to get your seller and each of the builder and surveyor to allow you to step into the seller's shoes under each of those contracts. Your solicitor can create contractual documents for you (which will cost more money). Or you could get your seller to indemnify you under your purchase contract, and then he recovers from his builder and/or surveyor once you've sued him.

It's all about risk. For peace of mind, you could just commission your own survey, paid for by you. And the get on with buying the house and measuring up for carpets and curtains.

What nealglover said.

I had a similar thing recently when selling the flat. The buyer's bank couldn't value the house as the surveyor inspecting the house 'suspected' there was asbestos in the garage. To my mind any additional work to determine whether it was indeed asbestos should be done at buyers expense (it is after all his bank which requires it to secure their investment). I also made it clear that should they find asbestos it would be for my account to remove (given that is a reasonable requirement when selling a property).

*Spoiler* It was asbestos. The buyer paid for the original survey, I paid the £600 to remove it, the bank didn't charge for a follow up survey (or if they did I didn't hear about it).

I would also pay for the original surveyor (who works for you) to go back and inspect the work carried out.

That way, you have recourse if there are further problems down the line.

This is probably the most sensible approach.

Presumably there is a condition against the mortgage that appropriate buildings insurance is in place as well, so I'd be wanting to make sure that I have everything formally covered in regards to the conversion. If insurance companies can find anything to wriggle out of a claim, they will.

Having said that, it hasn't fallen down yet, so your call at the end of the day

This might be a house up North..In which case the £250 could be a kitchen extension, new conservatory, and still leave enough change for a fish supper and a trip to the flicks with the missus....

DrP

😉

DrP

Every day is a school day!

I've contacted the original engineer to ask if he will carry out another survey so he should hopefully come back to me today.

Full buildings and contents insurance goes without saying but it is a condition of the mortgage that buildings insurance is in place.

Please could someone explain as to why the second structural engineer could not be held accountable on the basis I didn't pay him? I appreciate his contract is with the vendor as the vendor paid but surely as he's put his professional name to it his survey should stand irrespective of who has paid?

Thanks.

That £250 would clothe and feed all five of us for years to come!

Sorry, just read ourmaninthenorths reply, makes sense now cheers.

Please could someone explain as to why the second structural engineer could not be held accountable on the basis I didn't pay him? I appreciate his contract is with the vendor as the vendor paid but surely as he's put his professional name to it his survey should stand irrespective of who has paid?

Because his contract was on the basis of offering advice to someone other than yourself. Any losses or liabilities you suffer aren't really his concern.

^ this.

And that is also why, if your purchase fell through, you aren't "funding the whole process for someone else"

Because to gain any sort of real protection from one, the buyer needs to do their own survey, even if someone else has done one previously.

You can choose to risk it and trust someone else's survey, if you really want to. But it is exactly that, a risk.
No comeback to anyone other than yourself if things go wrong later.

Please could someone explain as to why the second structural engineer could not be held accountable on the basis I didn't pay him? I appreciate his contract is with the vendor as the vendor paid but surely as he's put his professional name to it his survey should stand irrespective of who has paid?

No. His duty of care is under a contract, which is to his client. The seller is his client.

Under contract law you need to be "privy" to a contract to have some/any rights under it. "Privy" in this case almost certainly means "party to the contract and who paid the money".

So, the person who paid the money and has the contract is the seller. You don't have a legal interest in the contract - i.e. you're not privy to it - so therefore you don't have any rights under it.

If you then consider the overriding legal principle of caveat emptor (buyer beware), what this means is that you buy something as seen. So if something doesn't work or isn't fit for purpose (i.e. the roof) you have no comeback against the seller. It's not like buying a new TV where you have consumer rights - assume you basically have nothing.

To de-risk this situation, you need to minimise the risk of paying more than the house is worth. So you instruct professionals to inspect the house and tell you if there are any hidden problems (wonky roof, asbestos, drains issues, is it built over coal mines, etc.).

So you can make sure you get the benefit of that professional advice, you need to pay for it. If the advice proves to be wrong, you have to have an ability to recover your losses (e.g. cost of fixing a wonky roof) - lawyers, surveyors etc. carry insurance to protect themselves against the risk of being sued.

One more thing: while you're focussing on the roof issue is there anything else bothering you?

If you're having a full structural survey done, then read the report very carefully and if you don;t understand anything or aren't happy, then call up the surveyor and get them to explain themselves.

I hope all the above makes sense - I spend my days negotiating deals and contracts and used to be a lawyer, so this stuff is second nature to me and it's easy to forget that not everyone has the same knowledge and experience.

Main message: if you're parting with money for something, do you think you've got a good deal? I don't mean a bargain (though you may have), but something that represents fair value for the thing you're buying. If you don't, then make sure you address those concerns before spending lots of your own and the bank's money on something.

Classy. How did you do this 'research'?

We talked to the neighbors mostly. Things like "it was sad to see him pass away last year, its been empty for ages" tend to give a lot away.
Also the solicitor told us it was 3 sisters selling and the house was in none of there names.
We spent every night walking around the street as well to check for annoyances, amazing what you find out.

If you buy a car and it turns up with a wheel missing, you dont go, "oh its not worth the hassle" and buy one yourself.
If my contract says lights to be fitted in all rooms, i expect there to be just that.

In the grand scheme of things it really isn't worth getting your knickers in a twist over. When we sold our last house the buyer contacted us a couple of days beforehand wanting a reduction of a couple of hundred pounds because the oven door didn't close properly. Seriously.

I just said yes, whatever. I wanted to be a bigger man than the one who would let a sale fall through for really petty and small reasons.

ourmaninthenorth - Member
One more thing: while you're focussing on the roof issue is there anything else bothering you?
If you're having a full structural survey done, then read the report very carefully and if you don;t understand anything or aren't happy, then call up the surveyor and get them to explain themselves.
I hope all the above makes sense - I spend my days negotiating deals and contracts and used to be a lawyer, so this stuff is second nature to me and it's easy to forget that not everyone has the same knowledge and experience.
Main message: if you're parting with money for something, do you think you've got a good deal? I don't mean a bargain (though you may have), but something that represents fair value for the thing you're buying. If you don't, then make sure you address those concerns before spending lots of your own and the bank's money on something.

Thanks omint, appreciate that. To be honest the structural surveys both focused on the roof space as there is no other structural issue within the property or its boundary.

Apart from the roof issue everything else is fine. The roof was altered 14 years ago and has no (visual) deflection at all which has been noted on all three reports (the home buyers and the subsequent structural surveys). We're happy with the repairs carried out and I'm fairly certain there won't be any future problem.

I do have before and after pictures if anyone would like to see them (by email) out of pure interest (on a professional basis, not to poke fun)!?

I do have before and after pictures if anyone would like to see them (by email) out of pure interest (on a professional basis, not to poke fun)!?

£500 by Paypal gift OK?

Yes please!

Email in profile. Ta.

I'll pay half 😉

But will you?!

Spoke to the original structural engineer who I instructed/paid asking if he would survey the property again, he's had a look at the second engineers survey and has said it is a good report from a decent company and I should ask the second engineer if he'd reissue his survey in my name first before we go any further.

Would this cover me if the second engineer agreed to this?