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Got reluctantly dragged into WhatsApp 2 years ago for son's football team, but never been keen on it especially when I found out it was Facebook.
I think I saw some post the other day where someone mentioned alternatives, but can't recall what.
This odious shit with Facebook closing GameStop share discussion groups has given me further reason to try to get out.
What are these other apps, and can they communicate with WhatsApp chats. ( Like yahoo mail, Gmail etc) or are they just within the platform?
You can get other messenger apps such as KakaoTalk or iPhones iMessage, I message will need the person to have an iPhone and KakaoTalk will need them to have the app, it’s mostly used in Asia. Don’t think you can use WhatsApp without having WhatsApp
Doubt any other platforms can integrate with WhatsApp seeing as the messages are encrypted.
Loads of alternatives though, Discord, Telegram, Signal etc
Sorry, I can't help but I must admit to having a little smirk when all the folk who were so against using evil Messenger are now stuck on WhatsApp.
The problem you have is that whilst it is easy for you to change platform, everyone else will stick with WhatsApp.
OUtside of lockdown every single one of my kids clubs and activities are organised via WhatsApp groups. If it wasn't for these groups, I wouldn't have a clue where they need to be or when.
I find WhatsApp a very good, clean and secure platform, I have no concerns about using it at all (even if I do get frustrated about people in groups charing pictures of their takeaway coffeesor new hair cuts.
A number of alternatives but you're problem is there's zero interoperability (as already said) so unless all your mates change as well then you're a bit stuck.
I used to like WA but have a dislike of FB so was disappointed when they bought WA. Still use it for group stuff but have been using Signal for about 15 months for a bit of personal stuff.
It's not as full featured but I really like it and they share no data with anyone - developed by the guys who started WA as well I believe.
I've started using signal. It's OK. I haven't been hacked by any foreign intelligence agencies yet, but that's possibly more because I'm not a terrorist.
(EDIT: that I know of).
Can you use Signal (or indeed any other options) be used from a desktop?
WhatsApp desktop is brilliant for me when I'm sat at home on the PC so I don't really want to move to a platform that I can only use on my phone.
I find WhatsApp a very good, clean and secure platform, I have no concerns about using it at all
This. No ads, no shite (apart from whoever you're stuck with on it) perfectly good app.
What's the saying about if you can't see the price then you're the product?
Id rather pay FB 75p or whatever it is each year for Watsapp and have the ability to chat without anyone reading it and using it to target adds.
The problem you have is that whilst it is easy for you to change platform, everyone else will stick with WhatsApp.
This is the issue but the messages are still encrypted end to end so its not really bad
Can you use Signal (or indeed any other options) be used from a desktop?
Yes infact I think either signal or telegram (maybe both?) allow video call from desktop. I think telegram has some massive file sharing options too so arguably better.
I use Threema for anything discreet. Bit more niche but secure if that’s a concern.
I am sticking to WhatsApp for the moment but is contemplating moving to Signal etc.
I am using it purely because all my ex-schoolmates are using it and I was asked to join.
If anyone from WhatsApp or Govt agent snoops on me then let me say to you that I pray to the grim reaper(s) to welcome you to his Covid garden for a cup of tea, and perhaps few more of your friends together to join the party.
This is what boils my pee about FB, WA, etc.
I've switched to signal and it's great. There is a desktop app which works well too. It has prompted some difficult conversations with groups that I have encouraged to switch, but they have mainly been receptive and the conversations seem to create a snowball effect that I hope means more people come over to it. In the meantime I am running signal and whatsapp but hoping to ditch whatsapp soon. My perspective is that if there is an alternative which does everything whatsapp does but isn't linked to facebook, then why not use it.
I don't use BookFace whatever since day one, I saw them coming, but I was rather annoyed when I found out BookFace took over WhatsApp in 2014 and now being asked to use it by me ex-classmates.
I am slowly persuading me friends to move to Signal etc ... see how that goes. It needs everyone to change ...
My perspective is that if there is an alternative which does everything whatsapp does but isn’t linked to facebook, then why not use it.
Agreed.
It's a slowly and steady nudging people along sort of approach. One stubborn group I just suggested that they try it for a month. Two weeks in they all love it and are encouraging their friends.
nice graphic sharkbait. thx
do you know where it originated?
Of course if Signal, Telegram or whoever hit a certain critical mass they will either a) sell to Facebook or b) look to monetise your data themselves.
Just stick with WhatsApp - it's the 21 century, your data isn't yours whoever you use.
This is what boils my pee about FB, WA, etc.
Is the source of this reliable, because that list looks inaccurate. It takes no information on "contacts" or location for example, and it only takes information such as transactions or customer support where you use it to contact a business account who have made a decision to collect such data from those that contact their customer service via Whatsapp.
I've no doubt Whatsapp is gathering a bit more than the likes of Signal, but the actual list of what they collect is not exactly invasive, and not the list you posted.
That graphic is probably worst case scenario, I am pretty sure they would not be allowed to collect at least some of that data by European data laws, and if you have an iphone, apple's terms and conditions which sandbox apps.
And if signal doesn't use contact info, it's going to be a very private conversation involving 1 person, I don't need an app to talk to myself.
I found graphics like that in this article
That's pretty defeatist danny, this seems like an opportunity for consumers to say "hold on facebook, we aren't happy with this model"
Signal is the open source platform that WhatsApp uses for its service, without the horrible data collection. We use it at work, and I'm encouraging people to use Signal where possible.
Here's a useful list of the stuff WhatsApp collects vs what Signal and Telegram collect: Whatsapp is a very naughty boy. Like, Really Naughty
do you know where it originated?
Saw it a couple of weeks ago having done some research as a friend reported a load of her contacts suddenly appearing on Signal.
Not sure of it's absolute origin but I just grabbed it from here:
https://setapp.com/lifestyle/signal-vs-telegram-how-to-choose-the-best-whatsapp-alternative-in-2021
Of course if Signal, Telegram or whoever hit a certain critical mass they will either a) sell to Facebook or b) look to monetise your data themselves.
Doubtful with Signal. Started by the guys who started WA but left after FB took it over. They're all about the privacy so won't be going down that road again.
it’s the 21 century, your data isn’t yours whoever you use.
Well clearly it can be.
Of course if Signal, Telegram or whoever hit a certain critical mass they will either a) sell to Facebook or b) look to monetise your data themselves.
It's 21 century ... you move on to the next app.
Most of them will sell you for a quick return, the trick is to get away when they start doing it.
it’s the 21 century, your data isn’t yours whoever you use.
It's a terrible idea to just accept the abuse of our privacy so easily, the past 4 or 5 years shows how it is used against us. Trump, brexit and populism in general is still rising because that data harvested from our freely given accounts is abused to nudge thoughts along a certain paths.
Just stick with WhatsApp – it’s the 21 century, your data isn’t yours whoever you use.
I'm of the same opinion - Google have far more useful information about me than Facebook or Whatsapp, and I have no intention to stop using them either. If my data is utilised for targeted ads to pay for these free apps, so be it.
My friend has removed Whatsapp and Facebook because he is very paranoid about the way social media has been used in votes and elections. My thinking is if you're enlightened enough to know about the likes of Cambridge Analytica, then you're probably gaining your information from more reputable sources than something shared on Facebook.
Doubtful with Signal. Started by the guys who started WA but left after FB took it over. They’re all about the privacy so won’t be going down that road again.
One well known phrase or saying 'Do no evil'...
Got reluctantly dragged into WhatsApp 2 years ago for son’s football team, but never been keen on it especially when I found out it was Facebook.
I think I saw some post the other day where someone mentioned alternatives, but can’t recall what.
there is a specific app (probably multiple) called Spond designed just for organizing teams etc - its designed around the use case you refer to. I've minimal experience but it seems to work IF you can get everyone to use it - rather than some on one thing and some on another.
This odious shit with Facebook closing GameStop share discussion groups has given me further reason to try to get out.
Facebook can't win though - if they ignore the content on their platform people complain that free speech is not a right to break the law, and if they take steps to stop groups which are probably breaking the law by price fixing they upset the masses for preventing free speech.
What are these other apps, and can they communicate with WhatsApp chats. ( Like yahoo mail, Gmail etc) or are they just within the platform?
No. The end to end encryption used by WhatsApp doesn't lend itself well to interoperability. Which means even FB do not know what you are saying in your chats on WA. Its the solution to the "I want privacy" complaint, and I'm quite impressed that FB have resisted the temptation to remove e2e encryption, monetise it, etc. I'm sure they can probably tell how many times I open the app, which groups I am reading most etc - but I can't think of anything it does which concerns me. In fact if I was going to discuss manipulating share prices I'd seriously consider using WA to do it! Of course the biggest vulnerability it the other person(s) who are in the conversation.
My thinking is if you’re enlightened enough to know about the likes of Cambridge Analytica, then you’re probably gaining your information from more reputable sources than something shared on Facebook
It's not about the individual though is it. I'm happy that you won't be influenced but what about the damage they do to the rest of the population that fall for the Cambridge Analytica approach, that in some way results in us all suffering the effects of Brexit and Trump.
And if signal doesn’t use contact info, it’s going to be a very private conversation involving 1 person
Why? All it has is a phone number.
Signal works differently to WA in that everything is stored purely on the phone rather than a server somewhere.
Kinda like sending an encrypted SMS - once it's gone it's out of your hands.... you can't stop the recipient seeing it.
I remember paying to download the WhatsApp app when I first started using it.
There was a long explaination shown about why they made the decision to charge for the app rather than offer it for free and sell your data.
I’m of the same opinion – Google have far more useful information about me
But Google aren't Facebook.
If Messenger is supposed to result in targeted ads then they're shit at it.
it. I’m happy that you won’t be influenced but what about the damage they do to the rest of the population
So are people boycotting them in protest?
The invite from Signal says "privacy focused equivalent of WhatsApp" so I'd interpreted that as users being concerned about the safety and pricy of their data
The problem you have is that whilst it is easy for you to change platform, everyone else will stick with WhatsApp.
This. My mate sent me a message saying something like - "getting rid of Whatsapp, moving to Wickr/Telegram/Whatever it was. I've not heard from him since 🙂
the best explanation i heard about WA collecting data was
"they cant read the content of your message, because that is encrypted, but they can access and read all the metadata attached to that message"
that sits pretty well with the list in the graphic above..therefore the list being 'worst' case
(apols, ive not read the subsequent links yet)
You could just check at source rather than worrying about whether random uncredited Internet images are reliable or not.
This. My mate sent me a message saying something like – “getting rid of Whatsapp, moving to Wickr/Telegram/Whatever it was. I’ve not heard from him since 🙂
Yes it's a good way to find out your mates aren't the good mates you once thought they were.
Completely flummoxed by this. Various groups in the UK, EU & US whining about how Facebook is too dominant and needs to be restricted, competed against.
WTF do they not just mandate that there needs to be some interface between the different models to allow messages from one platform to another? Fair enough, they may need to limit some functionality to lowest common denominator, but it would resolve the issue of allowing people to migrate away if they wanted without having to get critical mass of all their friends.
I can understand wanting to boycott WhatsApp on political grounds due to a dislike of their owners. The reason I wouldn't go into a Wetherspoons had nothing to with the quality of the beer.
But you need to exercise just a little bit of caution when you see a big scary list of permissions. The question then becomes not 'what' but 'why'. They could be nefarious, or they could be innocuous.
Take "contacts" in that image above. You may think 'OMG why does WhatsApp need access to my contacts, it's sending it all to Facebook!' (who probably has all that data anyway, but by the by). But one feature of WA is if you're messaging someone you know, it'll display the name you know them by rather than a phone number. To that it has to look it up somewhere. And sure, this isn't essential and you still have a manually set display name you can send instead, but then on Android at least permissions are granular so if you don't want it to have access you can just say no when you install it.
Not to mention the list is inflated by duplication.
WTF do they not just mandate that there needs to be some interface between the different models to allow messages from one platform to another? Fair enough, they may need to limit some functionality to lowest common denominator
In which case what's the point of having multiple systems that all do exactly the same thing? Might as well just have one. Here's your state-approved messaging system, comrade.
So are people boycotting them in protest?
It is effectively a protest yes. All of this is linked though, the invasion of privacy is one angle, but it's what they do with the data that is really concerning to me.
WTF do they not just mandate that there needs to be some interface between the different models to allow messages from one platform to another? Fair enough, they may need to limit some functionality to lowest common denominator, but it would resolve the issue of allowing people to migrate away if they wanted without having to get critical mass of all their friends.
who is "they"?
what if you decide to create a new platform tomorrow that overcomes some perceived issue with today's one, but your lowest common denominator undermines it?
Surely the lowest common denominator is SMS?
Does it have to be either/either?
I’d happily ditch WA but as mentioned, people will not follow you to Signal. I installed Signal ages back and never used it... just checked now and all of ten of my contacts are on it. I’ll endeavour to use that (and Telegram) more and maybe their user base will grow - it won’t if we just dig our heels in and say, but nobody uses the others!
Reminds me of Linux bitd. I used a distro with absolutely no proprietary code in the kernel. Great in principal, not so great if your wireless chip manufacturer doesn’t open source its FW, you can’t print and it runs your laptop battery down in twelve minutes. You just have to accept there’s going to be the odd blob of non-free code.
Railing against something that you don’t understand but sounds scary is the domain of anti-vaxxers and people who don’t eat “chemicals”.
You're right to be concerned. I think it's dangerous to just inherently trust big companies to be responsible with our data, whether that's in how they use it or how they safeguard it, and people are generally too quick to give out personal data. "Your heavy metal band is the day you were born and your birth month in this lookup table!" "Great, I'm Toxic Pigeon!" And you've just put your date of birth in the public domain where tens of thousands of complete strangers are reading it, well done. "Your stripper name is the name of your first pet followed by the name of your first car!" and now I've got the answers to the security questions on your bank account.
I don't trust Facebook as far as I could kick it. However, I also recognise it as a useful tool. So I use it but I exercise caution in what I share with it. Being concerned is laudable but the point at which you're making things up and filling in the blanks is the point where you're probably doing more harm than good and you should go do some reading to find out.
what if you decide to create a new platform tomorrow that overcomes some perceived issue with today’s one, but your lowest common denominator undermines it?
We've already tried this anyway, bringing the world together with a unified common language. It's called Esperanto. And now everyone speaks it fluently.
Is Signal free of charge to use? If it is, there must be some way the developers can make money out of it, or will in the future.
I'm happy to pay a small charge for data privacy. I'm not too bothered about apps or websites that want to show me adverts, unless there are so many it interferes with using them, but I object to any that want to steal my contacts - their personal data is not mine to give away. I would also be very concerned if, rather than just showing me adverts they do want me see, they block me from seeing what I want to see. I can cope with Google pushing the search result I want down six places, but if it turns out they are hiding things I'll have to find a way to stop using them.
Is Signal free of charge to use? If it is, there must be some way the developers can make money out of it, or will in the future.
Yes it is free to use (unlike Whatsapp, where you became the product when facebook bought it).
Signal Technology Foundation is a nonprofit 501c3 tax-exempt organization based in the United States. We don’t run ads, but we still need to pay for servers and staff. That’s where a donation from you can make a real difference. If you find Signal Messenger useful, we welcome your support.
https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/articles/360031949872-Donor-FAQs
I've been using it for about 3-4 years, donate every now and again. Would recommend.
It might be worth saying that there's a difference between what your phone has permission to read (aka permissions on the app stores), and what information is collected by the app and sent to the app provider (and possibly to be shared/sold to third parties). Only Apple have really put a spotlight on the latter with their recent introduction of "Privacy Labels". On Android we have no such information, only the privacy policy of the app provider.
The image you see where Signal only collects your phone number is referring to what data is collected and sent/stored on the signal server. It has also has permission to read your contacts, and other things like your pictures (if you allow it).
So Signal has shown that it is possible to make a fully functioning messaging app (with attachments, video chat, group video chat, etc) without collecting your entire phone book, or any other such personal information, the only thing it stores in plaintext on the server is your phone number, which is actually pretty impressive technologically.
And for what it's worth: "people will not follow you to Signal." isn't my experience.
Is Signal free of charge to use? If it is, there must be some way the developers can make money out of it, or will in the future.
Can and will are not synonyms.
There is a subset of developers who just want to give back to the community. Open source, net neutrality, the EFF, hell where do you think Linux came from?
I cannot speak for Signal as I've not yet used it, but these things do exist. People can make money off Linux, Red Hat for instance do a distro aimed at enterprise users (REHL - Red Hat Enterprise Linux) which is a paid-for product as they provide commercial support. But there's still many (many, many) free versions.
I feel we are reaching peak information source overload.
In personal life I have it coming at me from.
Texts
emails
fb messenger
whatsapp
insta messenger
zoom
And then at Work (which right now feels 100% integrated with home as I've only moved 6ft to the right)
Teams
google classrooms
whatsapp
emails
Please - no more information sources!
As ever, there's an XKCD for that.
I feel Pidgin needs to make a comeback, I used to talk to everyone on there across a few different platforms.
I feel Pidgin needs to make a comeback
Usenet surely?
It is effectively a protest yes. All of this is linked though, the invasion of privacy is one angle, but it’s what they do with the data that is really concerning to me.
What are they doing with the data?
Surveillance Capitalism.
Bit generic.
What are WA doing with my data, specifically, which I should be concerned about?
They don't show me any ads, they don't send me any spam, supposedly they don't eavedrop as it's end to end encrypted.
It's one of the least intrusive Apps I've come across - they send me an email once every year or so saying upgrade or you'll loose service and that's about it...
My GAS-o-meter is really struggling here....
Telegram just texted me instructions on how to move my message history across from WhatsApp 😂
https://telegram.org/blog/move-history
Funny thing is, they've been at this for years already anyway. The recent stuff is just them admitting it. You're brave to beleive anything Facebook say on the topic. The EU did and they didn't go well for them.
If you have a facebook account, there's no point in getting upset about WA - you're already 'all in'. If you use WA but not facebook, bad news, you actually do have a facebook account, its just a 'shadow one' and they'll have a big fat file on your same as everyone else.
I only know one person who has removed himself from WhatsApp, Google, any other big corporation etc. He's a professional get-upsetter who keeps encouraging me to get Telegram. I don't know who he thinks is interested in his life which seems to get more drab with every self-exclusion.
When I can't get in touch with people I want to, that's when I'll get one of these flash-in-the-pan apps, until everybody finds a reason to get grumpy about that one too.
And so it goes on.
What are they doing with the data?
I would recommend watching The Great Hack on netflix, it summarise my concerns very nicely.
What are WA doing with my data, specifically, which I should be concerned about?
Well that's kinda the problem isn't it, and probably one for you to scour their privacy policy for, I imagine it will only tell you the things that they plan to do, and if you weren't happy with the general vagueness of "Surveillance capitilism", I doubt you'll be satisfied with their "services" that they plan to offer from third parties with your data.
This article probably has the most information I can find in respect to whatsapp, and they also are unsatisfied with Whatsapps/Facebooks description of their intended data use: https://www.theregister.com/2020/10/23/facebook_whatsapp_business_api_hosting/
It probably hasn't escaped you that Facebook does not have a great reputation when it comes to not leaking and abusing user data. That article summarises it nicely with the conclusion:
The Social Network™ said its hosting services will emerge in coming months, which gives us all plenty of time to ponder whether you want to get into business with a corporation that has failed to suppress misinformation, allowed live-streaming of a racist terror attack, leaked personal data, and took years to figure out that holocaust denial has no place in public conversations.
The Social Network™ said its hosting services will emerge in coming months, which gives us all plenty of time to ponder whether you want to get into business with a corporation that has failed to suppress misinformation, allowed live-streaming of a racist terror attack, leaked personal data, and took years to figure out that holocaust denial has no place in public conversations.
Yes, not very nice behaviour, but they don't need my personal data to do that.
I use FB a lot and I think the last thing I saw which offended me was an advert for the Conservatives in the last GE. Which, sort of tells you that they really don't have a clue about me.
Bit like Amazon who only ever show me ads for books I've already bought from them - like I'm going to buy it again.
Unless it's all a huge double bluff and they really do know me, but just pretent they don't......
He’s a professional get-upsetter who keeps encouraging me to get Telegram
Wait until you tell him Telegram is far less secure than WhatsApp and store all your messages on a central server and does not have end to end encryption. Of the three (WA, Signal and Telegram) it is Telegram that I would outright not use on security grounds.
Well that’s kinda the problem isn’t it, and probably one for you to scour their privacy policy for, I imagine it will only tell you the things that they plan to do, and if you weren’t happy with the general vagueness of “Surveillance capitilism”, I doubt you’ll be satisfied with their “services” that they plan to offer from third parties with your data.
Although it does of confirm my suspiscion that in answer to
What are WA doing with my data, specifically, which I should be concerned about?
The answer is probably 'not a lot'.
Footflaps, I completely see where you are coming from, I think seeing adverts is just one of the many ways in which your data is used, and it's probably the only one which actually manifests itself as visible to you as a user. And maybe that Conservatives advert was intended for you because any of you live in a neighbourhood that needs a CON win, or you have been profiled as a potential swing voter, or because you have voted con in the past, or because you have mostly conservative friends, or many other bits of data aligned to mean you got shown this advert. Ok the advert thankfully didn't work on you, but others may be convinced (and indeed "we are where we are" with regards Conservatives and Brexit). So one might say that this user data has been used to influence user autonomy, and coerce decisions that don't need coercing from some funded AI.
The other ways your data are used are not so visible. You don't know when your data was accidentally leaked, sold to some other company, used to profile you using ai, when you become the subject of sentiment analysis, or when your location revealed to the police when you happened to be in a certain area where a crime happened, etc...
I think it's great that: Apple's privacy labels give you the tools to see what data is taken by these companies, apps like signal exist as a perfectly viable alternative, and that we're even having this conversation on a mountain bike forum and not some techie/secops forum.
Wait until you tell him Telegram is far less secure than WhatsApp and store all your messages on a central server and does not have end to end encryption. Of the three (WA, Signal and Telegram) it is Telegram that I would outright not use on security grounds.
Indeed. Telegram has some nice fun features, stickers and whatnot, but a secure messaging service it is not.
Facebook's recent revelation about their years-old harvesting of WhatsApp user data, excluding message content which is end-to-end encrypted, seems to have surprised and upset many folks. Including several friends who are still on Facebook itself.
I got rid of WhatsApp early last year. It left me fairly cut-off from a number of friends and groups. I went back after several months. It does seem to be a fairly ubiquitous cross-platform secure message service. I prefer iMessage but of course that doesn't work for Android-using friends.
Some links
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_cross-platform_instant_messaging_clients
https://www.avg.com/en/signal/secure-message-apps
https://www.wired.com/story/telegram-encryption-whatsapp-settings
https://www.wired.com/story/signal-encrypted-messaging-features-mainstream/
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/signal-vs-whatsapp
Surveillance self defense from the EFF
Nicely put jaymoid
In which case what’s the point of having multiple systems that all do exactly the same thing? Might as well just have one. Here’s your state-approved messaging system, comrade.
Eh. That's just stoopid.
Email works fine. Loads of different email providers. Ditto phone companies. Ditto banks etc etc.
who is “they”?
The EU, the government, ANSI, someone, anyone with the best interests of people at heart. ( So probably nobody ;-))
what if you decide to create a new platform tomorrow that overcomes some perceived issue with today’s one, but your lowest common denominator undermines it?
Surely the lowest common denominator is SMS?
That's hardly the big problem that you make it out to be. UK banks have good sides and bad sides. They're all trying to innovate in various areas to get more customers, reduce overheads, maximise profits atc etc. But they all also participate in Open Banking. They are all required by law to make certain customer details and transactions open to other banks. There is a common interface, but they can also innovate beyond it.
Likewise phones, email, text messages, bloody Bluetooth transfer etc. Different phone companies running round trying to innovate the **** out of each other: but in case you hadn't noticed... It's still possible for your iPhone to call my Nokia, or for my Pixel to call my mum's Samsung ( actually that's not quite true as my Pixel is an utter piece of shit and I hate it, but I digress)
Likewise software. Excel was built so that it could open Lotus123 files. My AndroidWord or wtf it is can probably open Word docs.
Etc
Nicely put jaymoid
+1
Fwiw Signal is getting some traction with my contacts. It would be interesting to see the uptake of the WA alternatives.... Sadly I think we're a little way off getting critical mass on any one of them.
Footflaps, I completely see where you are coming from, I think seeing adverts is just one of the many ways in which your data is used, and it’s probably the only one which actually manifests itself as visible to you as a user.
Well I'm just being slightly argumentative in all honesty. People bandy about these brash statements about evil this, evil that and they're doing all these bad things with your data, but when you ask the question 'what exactly' a deafening silence is the response.
And maybe that Conservatives advert was intended for you because any of you live in a neighbourhood that needs a CON win, or you have been profiled as a potential swing voter, or because you have voted con in the past, or because you have mostly conservative friends, or many other bits of data aligned to mean you got shown this advert. Ok the advert thankfully didn’t work on you, but others may be convinced (and indeed “we are where we are” with regards Conservatives and Brexit).
It's just an anecdote, but if you saw my FB feed you'd be pretty convinced it's fairly obvious I'm never going to vote Conservative (member of Is Thatcher dead yet group, we hate the Tories group, all tories are evil group etc etc and yes those groups do really exist). I also live in Labour central, the Tories don't even bother advertising their candidate locally as they get about 6 votes.
The other ways your data are used are not so visible. You don’t know when your data was accidentally leaked, sold to some other company, used to profile you using ai, when you become the subject of sentiment analysis, or when your location revealed to the police when you happened to be in a certain area where a crime happened, etc…
Yes, this is the real risk, but I really don't believe in big brother existing let alone being vaguely competent, so I place this risk in the so low a probability I don't GAS about it. Maybe it's naive, but when the world's most competent retailer (Amazon) can't even figure out that advertising the book I've just bought from them back to me isn't likely to work; I figure what chance does Big Brother stand of achieving anything.
Eh. That’s just stoopid
No it's not, you just have no idea what you're talking about and are offering "I don't understand why..." as a legitimate counter-argument. To which the answer is, "correct."
You are comparing accepted global standards upon which the Internet is built with a car crash of open source and commercial offerings for random applications. What you're probably reaching for is called SIP and it's an RFC 'standard' on which things like MS Teams is built. But this does not preclude other companies doing other things, why do we need iMessage when we have SMS?
Email works fine. Loads of different email providers.
Use that then. Email security is legendary after all.
Ditto phone companies.
You need to read some telecoms history. Email is older than I am and for a very long time was far from the universal constant it is now. I still had to consider whether email addresses were TCP/IP formatted (foo@mail.singletrackworld.com) or X.25 formatted (foo@com.singletrackworld.mail) when sending an email when I was at Uni back in the early- to mid-90s. Assuming email between the two was even possible at all, which it usually wasn't.
The phone generally is likely older than your grandfather. The US took decades to come even close to standardising systems (google 'phreaking') and still hasn't killed CDMA cellphone tech. These easy things you talk about are simply not so, it's taken decades. When WhatsApp hits it's 100th birthday let's talk.
In my car I've got FM, AM, DAB+ radios, that's just stoopid, why can't we just have one?
In my car I’ve got FM, AM, DAB+ radios, that’s just stoopid, why can’t we just have one?
Great and my car also has them. My car is a different make from yours. And some of the radio stations I listen to are broadcast using different technology than the stuff you listen to. And yet..... It works. It doesn't matter whose car we use or which station we're listening to, it just works.
Just like they could make a messaging app that talked to someone else's messaging app IF they wanted to, or if they were told to.
To claim it's not possible is just ridiculously naive.
Excel was built so that it could open Lotus123 files
... in order to ensure that the competition was stillborn.
Remember, 1-2-3 was initially a Mac outing. By the time Lotus got around to trying to get a foothold into the Windows (and OS/2) worlds with SmartSuite, MS Office had already won. Supporting Lotus file formats removed the primary reason that anyone would want to buy SS over MS Office on a PC platform; this wasn't cuddly interoperability but rather a shrewd and ruthless business decision. And it was an MO that Microsoft would go on to repeat again and again for a couple of decades.
Great and my car also has them. My car is a different make from yours.
The stuff you're railing against here also 'just works.' Because equally, my phone is likely different from yours. You might have a Mac to my PC. All of these things happily run Facebook Messenger, WhatsApp, whatever Google's chat outing is called this week, MS Teams, Zoom, and a supporting cast of thousands. I didn't need to run out and buy a new computer when Twitter came out.
And some of the radio stations I listen to are broadcast using different technology than the stuff you listen to. And yet….. It works.
And there you've just answered your own question. It is different technology. They all use different protocols. Some are standards, some are proprietary; some are open-source, some are corporate intellectual property. Why can't you play Xbox games on a Playstation?
Just like they could make a messaging app that talked to someone else’s messaging app IF they wanted to, or if they were told to.
Who are 'they?' Why would they want to? Who's going to be telling them to do it, comrade?
You may as well argue that they could make a DAB+ broadcast antenna send signals to an FM receiver IF they wanted to. Oh, wait, no they couldn't, that's why I had to buy a new radio.
To claim it’s not possible is just ridiculously naive.
"To claim it is possible is just ridiculously naive."
It is possible of course, and it's been done. I used to use a multi-protocol chat thing called Trillian which aggregated MSN, AOL, ICQ, GChat, FB Messenger and others. One client, multiple systems. There was a standard back then called XMPP which is what powered GChat and a few others, LiveJournal maybe. One protocol, multiple services.
But ultimately this was the lowest Common Denominator problem again, as soon as a provider wants to step outside the standard then they're hamstrung. Say XMPP or [generic standard service] doesn't support end-to-end encryption and as an organisation you want to provide that functionality. What do you do? You either don't provide it, you wait for every other client provider on the planet to buy into it, you risk loss of compatibility between clients, or you go off out on your own and then you're suddenly proprietary again. (Microsoft are VERY good at the latter.)
Because then, where's the incentive? Where's the desire to innovate? It's all suddenly a bit Harrison Bergeron.
You want everything to behave like SMS, we already have that technology, it's called SMS and there's a metric shitload of clients for it. Take your SIM card out and see how you fare with that.
My kids clubs use Spond. Seems ok.
Trillian!
Not just me then...