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Ours is old and inefficient (I expect) although our 3 bed terrace doesn't cost a lot to heat (iirc it's about £60/month for gas and electricity). It's serviced every year, just done, every year the man says it may die one day soon. About £2000 to replace.
What are the alternatives to gas and how much do they cost and what are people's experiences? Air source heat pumps?
New boiler at best 20% more efficient saving say £10 a month, that’s a lot of months saving to pay for new boiler.
ASHP will be more expensive than that and the savings still not enough to justify, especially if your current boiler is a combi.
ASHP should be reducing in costs as demand increases, but new technology will be needed to replace large sections of the current heating stock.
For now the answer is probably another gas boiler, if you have to change it, a few years time the answer may be different though.
YouTube>Skillbuilder>Roger Bisby
He's done at least 2 vids on alternatives but basically the technology is lagging behind.
Air source a big no no according to Roger.
A mate was nearly off grid with a heat store, wood burner with rear heat exchanger, thermal and solar. Seems you've got to REALLY want to do it as there's little help and the government only pay lip service to 'green' when BJ has another divorce/CSA payment due.
Not looking to replace the boiler unless it dies, just curious about alternatives...will have a look on YouTube, thanks
In France you can get a DIY ASHP kit from Brico Depot which is part of the Kingfisher group (B&Q) for 650e. The pipes come pre-filled. If your home is reasonably insulated that will be enough, if not double that. You'll need to budget for some noise mitigation so you don't piss off the neighbours. You're a teacher, I'm confident you have the nouse and motivation to DIY.
Our neighbours have one, just a small one. Their choice was decided by the ability to use it as A/C in Summer. We discussed where they put it and I can't hear it even when I'm listening for it.
https://www.diy.com/one-planet-home/eco-retrofit
Is paton a person or a bot?
Not entirely tongue in cheek:
Insulate more and heat recovery vent. Then just bin the boiler altogether, electric panel heaters, a gaming PC and a woodburner for the fun of it will give you enough heat. Instant water heater under the sink and electric shower, job jobbed.
If you're boiler is already a combi and doesn't need moving, Boxt.co.uk can save you a few hundred on that £2k, super service, I phoned them 2pm one day and the new boiler was fitted and working by 4.30 the next day.
Woodburner, no way, 100% not getting one, hateful smelly things
Is copy & paste a person or a bot?
School holidays innit
ASHP on really viable if you have a super-insulated, airtight home otherwise you may as well have a fire, burn tenners and huddle around them 😉
ASHP can be viable, install costs are still high, running costs much better, efficiencies getting better, temperatures they produce getting higher. Good design is critical, as is installation, but more so design.
One of the arguments will be to swap the incentives that the fossil fuel industries receive (or don't if you believe government) to electrcity production. That might level the playing field a bit more.
There will be another raft of you tube videos promoting heat pumps too from similar people that have a vested interest in that section of the heating industry. I would try to find some real scientific data.
Unless it's already well insulated and ventilated ashp will probably not be viable unless an whole house approach is taken. I.e. upgrade ventilation, insulation and quite possibly radiators (depending on what can be done with the insulation / ventilation). Worth doing if you're into for the long term, not for financial reasons but to make a nice environment to live but all the work means it would probably be best do e as a complete renovation of the house. So £££
I really like the idea of an ASHP from the perspective of moving away from gas. Had a quote for ~ £6500 after the 7 years worth of payments from the gov incentive scheme. Was £11k or so up front I think.
On the flip side, I could get a combi boiler fitted in the loft (freeing up space in the kitchen) and ditch the hot water tank (to gain another cupboard) for ~£3k give or take £500.
I’m pretty much in the same position, that my 25 year old boiler may give up completely at any minute, if it lasts another few years a heat pump might be a better choice but for now I think a replacement boiler is best for the wallet by a long way.
Woodburner, no way, 100% not getting one, hateful smelly things
Done properly there is no smell or smoke, all of my heat for the last 7 years has been free, I spend about a week a year cutting, chopping and stacking though and you have to bring log in and feed it.
Gas for hot water, electricity for light, those bills are tiny, besides food heat is possibly the most expensive thing humans buy.
I have a friend that just fitted 8 solar panels(5k) and their meter is now stopped, they generate more than they use, electric radiators on that might work out free.
I have a friend that just fitted 8 solar panels(5k) and their meter is now stopped, they generate more than they use, electric radiators on that might work out free.
Doubt it, unless they only run the heating in summer.
I have a friend that just fitted 8 solar panels(5k) and their meter is now stopped, they generate more than they use, electric radiators on that might work out free.
5k what ?
And no it won't heat their house.
2*1.5kw electric oil rads won't go very far in a house.
5k what ?
£5k for 8 solar panels installed with a control box.
Heat storage tank?
Heat storage tank. That'll be the hot water sorted.
5k seems steep for 8 panels. I assume they are some fancy panels.
As of 2024, no more new builds in Scotland will have gas boilers, gonna be interesting.
About time.
In the mean time developers are ramming in as many gas boilers as poss.
No way will my next house have a gas connection.
I have a friend that just fitted 8 solar panels(5k) and their meter is now stopped.
A mate also has this, fitted 5 years ago. He also has a hot water tank that the panels also feed into. During the summer months he says he pays nothing for heating hot water nor for electricity use. He said that even in the winter months it's nowhere near what he was paying when his energy came from supplied gag & electricity.
A mate also has this, fitted 5 years ago. He also has a hot water tank that the panels also feed into. During the summer months he says he pays nothing for heating hot water nor for electricity use. He said that even in the winter months it’s nowhere near what he was paying when his energy came from supplied gag & electricity.
I'm considering it so interested, or anything else, just want rid of gas, both the friend and I rely on wood stove for main heat supply so perhaps easier, no reliance on one single thing.
They don't have a tank yet so I'll see how that goes.
Heat storage tank. That’ll be the hot water sorted.
5k seems steep for 8 panels. I assume they are some fancy panels.
I thought that was reasonable, he is pretty savvy, they are pretty invisible on the roof, all in in one day but I don't know the first thing about solar panels so no idea.
The tank confuses me, spoke to a fitter and he was trying to convince me it was a miracle solution, storing power being the biggest problem etc etc, it can keep water hot at the same temperature for two weeks apparently, and general dish washing water is luke warm from the warming outer tank, the one I looked at was 3 tanks inside each other, convinced that all works as they said but seemingly if it ever goes cold...you just flip an emersion heater and your free electricity heats it up, sounds too good to be true.
We have a 1000L thermal store with a stratified heat exchanger on the side, inputs from 4 solar panels, condensing oil boiler and back boiling wood burner. Whole house is underfloor heating and v well insulated. In the summer the solar panels run the hot water (2 teenagers who love multiple long showers) and any extra heat the house may need (not much as we have central glass areas for passive solar heating) without the boiler being needed. In the winter they make enough heat for the underfloor heating so boiler(s) just put heat into the top of the tank for hot water. Would defo recommend as our oil usage is massively less than average for a house of our size (no gas in the country!).
Back boiling wood burners are not worth IMO as they have to be quite large so in a well insulated room put out too much heat.
general dish washing water is luke warm from the warming outer tank
Mmm legionella, nice. That's the reason water is supposed to be heated above 60 degrees. Also made worse if you run it through a shower head.
I'd be very wary of any such elaborate setups, seems easy to get it wrong. Hell our calorifiers at work need treated once a month and still manage to breed it.
I've 12 panels on the roof.
While it makes a dent in everything . Anyone claiming it does it all either has a battery, huge panels in excess of 3.6kwh or a hefty dose of exaggeration.
Done properly there is no smell or smoke,
Maybe not inside, but you're belching out more PM10s than a diesel engine.
During the summer months he says he pays nothing for heating hot water nor for electricity use.
Really? So he never watches TV in the evening, turns off his fridge and freezer overnight, never turns on the lights??
Our gas bill for hob and the boiler for CH is just £40 a month - 25 year old small Baxi. Not sure we will ever get that much cheaper with anything new.
Leccy is huge, hot tub, 2 gaming PC's, WFH.
general dish washing water is luke warm from the warming outer tank
Mmm legionella, nice. That’s the reason water is supposed to be heated above 60 degrees. Also made worse if you run it through a shower head.
I’d be very wary of any such elaborate setups, seems easy to get it wrong. Hell our calorifiers at work need treated once a month and still manage to breed it.
Yep..got a new dishwasher that defaults to 'eco' mode. After a few months of use it developed a nice slimey orange grease on everything that began to stink. Tried washing the dishwasher with those little bottles of detergent and everything but eventually just started turning off the eco mode and using the full hot wash and no issues since.
Often doing stuff at low temperature is a false economy as you have to do stuff longer with cooler water so end up consuming the same energy anyway...then you have the hygiene side of things.
Maybe not inside, but you’re belching out more PM10s than a diesel engine.
I have had this levelled many times, usually with little understanding, wood dried to -15%mc going into a hot stove has virtually no smoke, this is it burning efficiently, particles in the air are dependent on the burning temperature, cold is not good, badly seasoned wood brings the temperature down hence smoke, if you need the heat you need to burn efficiently, your issue is more likely with the decorative wood burning stove fraternity.
I'm multi fuel so also occasionally burn smokeless anthracite, to give you an idea of the standard, this smokes and smells quite noticeably, and what the government would prefer everyone to burn, wood varies but I have never had wood burn anything close to that, which is the smokeless standard.
Mmm legionella, nice. That’s the reason water is supposed to be heated above 60 degrees. Also made worse if you run it through a shower head.
I’d be very wary of any such elaborate setups, seems easy to get it wrong. Hell our calorifiers at work need treated once a month and still manage to breed it.
His is warmer than mine out of the combi boiler, like most people I imagine I turn it down, never had legionella to my knowledge, would I notice?
I’ve 12 panels on the roof.
While it makes a dent in everything . Anyone claiming it does it all either has a battery, huge panels in excess of 3.6kwh or a hefty dose of exaggeration.
This depends on how well its optimised.
I don't know the kit, shading, roof angle, elevation, string design or installation configuration but all these factors can combine to make your 3.6KW nothing like 3.6KW.
That said, broadly I agree with your sentiment.
On the flip side, I could get a combi boiler fitted in the loft
Will it work if the water mains pressure drops to 1.5 bar?
I don’t know the kit, shading, roof angle, elevation, string design or installation configuration but all these factors can combine to make your 3.6KW nothing like 3.6KW.
I think I'm doing ok for being at 57 north
And for balance today where it was not sunny at all and grey + thunder we got 4kwh. Didn't register anything above 0.8kw
My electric is around £20 per month, gas heats water and wood stove heats, very rarely need to run radiators(which are gas anyway) how many solar panels do I need as a rough guide? and how many to heat water and do away with the gas?
His is warmer than mine out of the combi boiler, like most people I imagine I turn it down, never had legionella to my knowledge, would I notice?
I thought you said it was lukewarm? Which is it?
Will it work if the water mains pressure drops to 1.5 bar?
It should as long as it's not 15m above the main
I thought you said it was lukewarm? Which is it?
Bit less than lukewarm, has been for years, I turned the dial down one day when it felt a bit hot, I don't think that is terribly unusual.
Will it work if the water mains pressure drops to 1.5 bar?
Eventually no, because it will continue to drop, but all you need to do is turn the inlet tap until the dial goes back up, possibly trickier if in the attic.
Eventually no, because it will continue to drop, but all you need to do is turn the inlet tap until the dial goes back up, possibly trickier if in the attic.
Water companies are trying to operate their network to 1.5 bar in the street. You might be lucky and get more, don't assume because you get more now you'll get it tomorrow
Bit less than lukewarm, has been for years, I turned the dial down one day when it felt a bit hot, I don’t think that is terribly unusual.
You turned the dial down on the tank you don't actually have? You said:
The tank confuses me, spoke to a fitter and he was trying to convince me it was a miracle solution, storing power being the biggest problem etc etc, it can keep water hot at the same temperature for two weeks apparently, and general dish washing water is luke warm from the warming outer tank, the one I looked at was 3 tanks inside each other, convinced that all works as they said but seemingly if it ever goes cold…you just flip an emersion heater and your free electricity heats it up, sounds too good to be true.
That's a legionella risk right there. You never tank lukewarm (tepid) water for prolonged periods if at all.
Water companies are trying to operate their network to 1.5 bar in the street. You might be lucky and get more, don’t assume because you get more now you’ll get it tomorrow
I find that difficult to believe, how would they service commercial buildings, flats or even houses up hills?
Water companies are trying to operate their network to 1.5 bar in the street. You might be lucky and get more, don’t assume because you get more now you’ll get it tomorrow
It's a combi boiler? the dial on the front is pressure, regulated by the boiler, there is a natural gradual loss in the pipes so you can manually adjust it with the inlet tap.
You turned the dial down on the tank you don’t actually have? You said:
I have a combi boiler, gas? it heats my water? I'm considering getting a heat storage tank for solar.
That’s a legionella risk right there. You never tank lukewarm (tepid) water for prolonged periods if at all.
The principle is correct obviously but I don't think I'm alone in using lukewarm water to rinse a dish, if I am then I'm perhaps immune to legionella because I have done it for years without giving it a thought.
decorative wood burning stove fraternity.
Ha, best line of this thread so far!
Regarding retrofit of an ASHP, I thought this also typically required replacing radiators with larger ones, or switching to underfloor heating, due to the lower supply temp ? So the cost of the ASHP itself is only the start of it.
Thread resurrection.
our combi is perhaps looking to be replaced in the not too distant future, and we are considering (as far as it's been mentioned) moving away from gas.
However, what if anything?
our house is a mid terrace cottage, original build somewhere in the early 1800's, in the 1970's a big box dormer was put on it, removing the roof space. Thick sandstone walls, granite chip render on the outside, uPVC windows put in before we moved in.
When we moved in it was a gas boiler for CH and immersion heater tank for hot water. This was changed out when the boiler was condemned, to a combi.
We also have a PIV system to provide fresh air and maintain moisture levels so the house doesn't go mouldy, and no carpets to help it vent.
hearing some getting on OK with ASHP, grants available to make installs similar outlay to new combi, but I have reservations that it's not going to be a solution for us, in our old cottage.
I think to get it to work, we'd need to insulate under the floors and upgrade the dormer insulation, however I'm concerned that if we did that, the house wouldn't breathe and things will start to get damp. We'd need to make sure we either re plaster with lime plaster, or gyproc in a way to ensure the walls can remove moisture, even then, i don't have a lot of faith in uPVC window trickle vents to do a lot of moisture removal, so we'd likely need to install room vents.
I think the answer is to change the combi for another combi and hope there's an alternative to the current alternatives in the years to come, or I get a lot of work done to get the house feeling warm with a ASHP and have a hot water tank again, oh and return to an electric shower too...doesn't seem worth the hassle unless we have a windfall to completely strip out the lower floor of the cottage!
Regarding retrofit of an ASHP, I thought this also typically required replacing radiators with larger ones, or switching to underfloor heating, due to the lower supply temp ? So the cost of the ASHP itself is only the start of it.
The issue with GSHP and ASHP is that the temperature differential of the radiators:rooms in that setup is not that great. Instead of piping a small amount of really hot* water around your house, you pump a much greater amount of slightly warm water to achieve the same heating. The trouble is, if your house pipework is made for a recent-ish efficient combi boiler, the pipes are likely to be a small gauge and can't achieve the flow rate needed to warm the house. So in some circumstances you'd have to replace all the pipework.
I thought this was a problem with newer houses, not old ones. Of course, insulation is another issue.
IANA central heating engineer, I'm just parroting something I heard on Radio 4.
(*piping hot??)
For you description lovewookie, I expect the energy demand of your house is too much to make an ASHP economically viable.
So in some circumstances you’d have to replace all the pipework.
interesting, the grants and associated quotes from local ish folk who've had it done includes new radiators, but maybe not new connecting pipework.
For you description lovewookie, I expect the energy demand of your house is too much to make an ASHP economically viable.
I think you're right.
what other alternatives are there for a flat roof, tiny back garden cottage in a conservation area?
I suspect, not a lot.
Lots of constraints there by the sound of it. More insulation, draft proofing and MVHR would probably be on my list if possible.
The problem with old houses is that energy flux through the structure was part of the equation for keeping moisture at bay and preventing the materials of the building from breaking down.
This is pretty much at odds with modern energy efficiency thinking.