[Closed] All publicity is good publicity...

Context: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/zimbabwe/11767119/Cecil-the-lions-killer-revealed-as-American-dentist.html

Sadly it seems that this man has done nothing illegal.

As and when big game hunting becomes illegal perhaps this kind of thing will become prosecutable.

There are some horrible posts on the yelp link and I don't think we should wish ill on someone for legal actions - just hope that he thinks about them.

JulianA - Member
Sadly it seems that this man has done nothing illegal.

From what I've read I think this one was barely legal, some of the other stuff he's killed seems to be protected species which definitely isn't. Legal or not there are a lot of people that see big game hunting as something very wrong, particularly when it involves wounding the animal and taking two days to find it to kill it with a rifle.

Controlled licensed game hunting in some areas is helping pay for the conservation efforts in others.

Hardly an ideal situation, obviously, but as with most things, they aren't totally black and white.

Does sound like this guy got scammed by people claiming to be legit.

[quote=JulianA ]Sadly it seems that this man has done nothing illegal.

They appear to be prosecuting the other people involved. You'd think it obviously very morally wrong to lure it out of the national park in order to shoot it - and Mr Palmer does business in the US where morals matter, not just the strict rule of law, hopefully he won't be making enough money to go on more trips like this.

Legal or not you have got to be a sick individual to enjoy killing big game.

I understand that it helps pay for conservation but I would not want him as my dentist.

People who hunt for sport are all absolute c words.

Does sound like this guy got scammed by people claiming to be legit.

I think the clue was in the name : [i]Honest Trymore Ndlovu[/i] with perhaps special significance to the middle part of the name.

Someone whose name was Honest Trymore would set alarm bells off for me anyway.

And Ndlovu sounds like something an inebriated person might want to tell you.

http://cnnphilippines.com/incoming/2015/07/29/Cecil-lion-Walter-James-Palmer-Zimbabwe.html

[i]"The Zimbabweans, Honest Trymore Ndlovu and Theo Bronchorst, were due in court Wednesday"[/i]

Another thing I read was that the lion was head of a pride. Now another male will move in and in doing so will kill all the cubs in the pride. So not just one lion killed, he killed kittens!!!!

Someone whose name was Honest Trymore would set alarm bells off for me anyway.

And Ndlovu sounds like something an inebriated person might want to tell you.

Trolling or stupid? Ndlovu is a popular name in Zimbabwe, and Honest isn't at all unlikely as a name there either. I'd imagine Trymore to be equally normal.

But, I assume you knew that.

Hey, come on now. He's an "American" - "America" has a culture we could never hope to understand.

Yeah I must be trolling or stupid Flashheart.

Anyway, Walter clearly likes to kill things

[img] ?quality=65&strip=all&strip=all[/img]

[img] ?quality=65&strip=all&strip=all[/img]

And he seems very proud.

http://heavy.com/news/2015/07/walter-palmer-minnesota-dentist-hunter-killed-cecil-the-lion-dead-shot-zimbabwe-illegal-arrested-photos-video-cubs-theo-bronchorst-trymore-ndlovu/

Controlled licensed game hunting in some areas is helping pay for the conservation efforts in others.

He paid 50k - Cecil was drawing in way more cash than that in terms of tourists.

If the accusations that he deliberately led the lion of the range are true, then it was illegal.

Personally I think it'd be far more macho to shoot one with a paintball gun and then try to escape. Total psychos kill big game for sport, even with a bow it's not about danger as the guides are armed to the teeth. It's about getting a thrill from killing something, taking the head and displaying it on your wall is [s]one small step[/s] one divorce away from going out....killing a bunch of hookers with a crossbow....plastinating them and displaying them in your sex dungeon.

At least if you join the infantry, incoming fire gives you a thrill seeking excuse - as opposed to a Hannibal Lecter style power trip.

It's a scientific experiment - he's tried shooting moose, chamois, deer, ibex, leopard, rhino, polar bear, grizzly bear, bison, black bear and now lion.

Seems like there's nothing that'll increase the size of his tiny, tiny penis.

Times like this you realise how primitive and hard to understand the fly-over States', rednecks are.

I didn't realise until reading this news story that it was possible for someone like this to legally(ish) do this. I'm just glad that this individual has managed to get it so wrong he's raised it up to newsworthy status.

It's a sad state that income from this activity is a useful way to prop up efforts to prevent this kind of activity. Sad indeed.

I should probably wind my neck in, but I'm so outraged by this that if I had a bow and arrow like that, I know who I'd point it at. But only just to scare em, cos I wouldn't have the complete lack of civility in me to think it a thrill to watch them die, or claim them as a trophy. Just bonkers.

Rant over...

I haven't hunted and don't want to, but I assume that the attractions are much the same as biking.

You get to go to exciting and wild places, do a bit of camping, do something slightly risky and requiring a bit of skill and some expensive equipment, then you Instagram it.

If you're out hunting leopards with a bow and arrow, you've presumably taken the moral judgment that killing non-human animals for instrumental reasons isn't something you have to worry about, which most of us agree with when we're making chicken nuggets or smart shoes. 😕

[url= http://newsthump.com/2015/07/29/tony-the-tiger-shoots-dentist-while-on-holiday-in-minnesota/ ]Already spawned some revenge attacks.[/url]

Legal or not, his patients / customers and community can decide if he's the sort of dentist they want to go to knowing what their cash is going to fund. Just because it's legal doesn't mean you can do it without consequence.

😆 at Drac's link.

“Where was I? Oh yes, it’s been a great day. Hunting really is a lost art. Sitting in a jeep, drinking beer and shooting unaware, unarmed sentient beings is the mark of a true sportsman.”

Take note of how awesome you are hunters.

You'd think it obviously very morally wrong to lure it out of the national park in order to shoot it - and Mr Palmer does business in the US where morals matter, not just the strict rule of law, hopefully he won't be making enough money to go on more trips like this.

For me this is the salient bit. I am very glad he has been outed and really hope that the patients in his catchment leave him in sufficient numbers that he goes out of business. Sadly until the law changes to prevent rich foreigners doing this sort of thing outing all 'deviants' and making their day to day life sufficiently hellish to put others off is the best that can be hoped for.

I don't think we should wish ill on someone for legal actions

Well that's an interesting take on the issue. Plenty of countries have laws which are just plain wrong.

Drac - The writer of that supposedly humourous piece should be even more ashamed than the dentist. Shockingly unfunny.

I find it really odd that many people are hunting legally and yet the odd one gets picked out on FB etc.

Fair enough it seems that this one was illegal, but the client says he believed everything was legal.

Just seems an easy and pointless bandwagon to jump on. "Share this if you think its awful". Achieves nothing.

Drac - The writer of that supposedly humourous piece should be even more ashamed than the dentist. Shockingly unfunny.

🙄

I'm not getting all moral high-horsey about it BTW, it's just cringeworthy.

Mr Palmer is said to have shot Cecil with a crossbow, injuring the animal. The group didn't find the wounded lion until 40 hours later, when he was shot dead with a gun.

likes torturing and tormenting animals, can see why he's a dentist

Let's not forget our own loveable (to some) Prince Philip was not adverse to a bit of big game hunting(that's him on the left, proud queenie in the middle - what a brave husband you have!). Thankfully public pressure means he only kills small fluffy stuff for fun now.

[img] [/img]

Fair enough it seems that this one was illegal, but the client says he believed everything was legal.

Just seems an easy and pointless bandwagon to jump on. "Share this if you think its awful". Achieves nothing.

You're such a contrarian that I doubt you'll recognise this, but you couldn't be more wrong.

1. He would say that. He's likely to be fibbing.

2. It achieves a lot more than petitions and lobbying could in terms of putting the issue on the public and political agenda.

I've seen people saying stuff like "we kill chickens for our dinner, what's the difference?" on facebook - only a matter of time until some bright spark comes up with that line here.

I eat meat. Lots and lots of meat. Thousands of animals must have died to satisfy my hunger by now. If I lived somewhere where it was practical/economical to hunt for food I would. I worked in a slaughter house as a summer job a few times too. Nothing about the process makes me squeamish.

Killing endangered species does seems totally wrong, but having worked with people who managed large game estates in Zimbabwe before Mugabe they said that entire rural economies in Africa were built on the hunting industry and without Americans and Europeans hunting exotic big game, those animals would be extinct long ago.

Do you think Putin is getting a semi looking at the pictures aof the dentist with the leopard?

but having worked with people who managed large game estates in Zimbabwe before Mugabe they said that entire rural economies in Africa were built on the hunting industry and without Americans and Europeans hunting exotic big game, those animals would be extinct long ago.

That'll be before 1980 then - 35 years ago - before mass market safari tourism (of the non killing kind) took off.
If they can't get their financial house in order with the tourists shooting only photos of the local wildlife with the potential market of people wanting to do just that then it's tragic.

I find it really odd that many [s]people[/s]lions are hunting legally and yet the odd one gets picked out[s] on FB[/s]by some fanny with a crossbow etc.

Fair enough it seems that this one was illegal, but the [s]client[/s]lion says he believed everything was legal.

convert

That'll be before 1980 then - 35 years ago - before mass market safari tourism (of the non killing kind) took off.
If they can't get their financial house in order with the tourists shooting only photos of the local wildlife with the potential market wanting to do just that then it's tragic.

Apparently not. Since your typical couple on honeymoon safari require/desire a certain amount of luxury or convenience (by safari standards) whereas trophy hunters are more willing to go well out of their way.

I'm no expert, just going on what someone with a lifetime of experience told me. And since I'm responsible for the misery and death of thousands of animals I'm not going to judge someone for killing them himself.

If they can't get their financial house in order with the tourists shooting only photos of the local wildlife with the potential market wanting to do just that then it's tragic.

I don't like hunting at all, but it does bring the money in for wildlife management.

Edit: And hunting is really popular in the US. Don't assume this will hurt said dentist's business in any way.

For the comments made about believing it was legal, animals carrying tag's / collars are not fair "game", of which this lion had one, so he knew full well what he was doing, he has enough history behind him to know this.

As for what happened in years past, we've all moved on and know that stuff like this shouldn't really be happening now, so Royals, the "Elite" etc have distanced themselves from it. Unfortunately Rich EEEEmericans with morals looser than Jordans snatch "don't get it"

jimjam - Member
having worked with people who managed large game estates in Zimbabwe

The guides just bagged the first male lion they could find, in return for a huge wadge of cash.

that's not 'management'.

As for what happened in years past, we've all moved on and know that stuff like this shouldn't really be happening now, so Royals, the "Elite" etc have distanced themselves from it.

That was kind of my point. Public pressure (admittedly in a very British and deferent way) changed the Royals' behaviour. These thick skinned morally absent modern hunters can be influenced too - but probably through their wallets. High profile social media 'outrage' to destroy their reputation is as good a place to start as any.

That was kind of my point. Public pressure (admittedly in a very British and deferent way) changed the Royals' behaviour. These think skinned morally absent modern hunters can be influenced too - but probably through their wallets. High profile social media 'outrage' to destroy their reputation is as good a place to start as any.

Yep, and the more pressure the better.

ahwiles

The guides just bagged the first male lion they could find, in return for a huge wadge of cash.

that's not 'management'.

Yeah, I agree. I was making the point that I'm not outraged, and find the kind of global media backlash very ott since, to the best of my knowledge big game hunting is of vital importance in parts of Africa, and, we treat our animals much less humanely whilst killing and wasting them on a giant industrial scale.

Some guy killed a lion he shouldn't have. End of story really imo. I can't see there being a similar outrage if someone in Scotland killed the wrong deer.

There is sod all skill on behalf of the hunter, he will follow behind the trackers until he has a shot, that Lion was so used to humans that getting close wouldn't be a problem.

If you go to Cabelas in the States you will see all kinds of lures and bait for deer etc, boy Redneck sprays musk all over the place, Stag comes along to get some and boy Redneck who has been sitting in a tree wearing his no odour camo gear whacks it. The only skill is to sit in a hide and wait whilst drinking beer and whacking off.

No skill in being able to shoot straight?

Pigface

If you go to Cabelas in the States you will see all kinds of lures and bait for deer etc, boy Redneck sprays musk all over the place, Stag comes along to get some and boy Redneck who has been sitting in a tree wearing his no odour camo gear whacks it. The only skill is to sit in a hide and wait whilst drinking beer and whacking off.

I'd rather shoot pigs from a helicopter if you don't mind. Though with the doors open and swirling air currents I don't think whacking off would go down too well.

I joke. I'd whack off anyway. But what's the harm if "boy redneck" eats the stag afterwards or it's being culled for population control?

No skill in being able to shoot straight?

with a scope no

shooting straight with a modicum of training is easy, especially at the ranges they will be at. Do it at 400 meters + and an element of skill is actually required.

Some guy killed a lion he shouldn't have. End of story really imo. I can't see there being a similar outrage if someone in Scotland killed the wrong deer.

Probably because there is no shortage of deer, whereas Lions are in danger of becoming extinct.

No harm if you can dress the kill and eat it after, not sure there is a lot of lion eaten. That is purely down to Vanity.

Sitting in a tree having lured the prey in with artificial scent doesn't seem very skilful that is the point I was trying to make.

Its the whole "I am a hunter" bit which they have reduced to the skill of shooting fish in a barrel

What about with a bow and arrow?

Edit:

Sitting in a tree having lured the prey in with artificial scent doesn't seem very skilful that is the point I was trying to make

I lived in Zimbabwe and understand the need for hunting in terms of conservation both for revenue which funds conservation work and population management given that space is restricted. Each year a set number of licences for viable species will be issued. I have no problem with this in fact with the right connections I probably would have considered a career guiding these tourists but didn't have any connection to hunting community.

But luring a dominant male head of a pride out of the park to land you can make the kill on is wrong, should be looking to hunt an animal past it's prime. Also 40 hours for a kill is ridiculous if he wants to use a bow he should be prepared to make the kill the same day. Apart from the animals suffering a wounded lion like that is a danger to people living in around the park. Most deaths among professional hunting guides happen when tracking a dispatching animals wounded by clients.

Apparently not. Since your typical couple on honeymoon safari require/desire a certain amount of luxury or convenience (by safari standards) whereas trophy hunters are more willing to go well out of their way.

Africa is big, logistics are hard. Transporting and housing a hunter with £35000 to spend on one animal in a remote area is easy. 100 tourists with a Nikon isn't.

But 1 'hunter' paying a few fly-by-night 'guides' the equivalent of $10k each isn't really sustaining the economy. '100 tourists with a Nikon' paying $5k each to be there are paying $500k between them, and require 20 guides, 10 landrovers, 40 chefs/maids/porters, etc etc is. And the best bit is, you can bring in 100 more next week.

Even if he'd been standing on one foot, blindfolded while performing the macarena it wouldn't make it OK though.

🙄

Africa is big, logistics are hard. Transporting and housing a hunter with £35000 to spend on one animal in a remote area is easy. 100 tourists with a Nikon isn't.

I don't like hunting at all, but it does bring the money in for wildlife management.

Edit: And hunting is really popular in the US. Don't assume this will hurt said dentist's business in any way.

Except in this case, the park has said that Cecil brought in something like the equivalent to 800,000 USD a year in terms of tourism. People went there specifically to see him. Where as that Hunter brought in 50k.

Maybe said brave dentist could go out to Syria with his bow and arrow and confront creatures that might shoot back. I'm sure there is scope for crowd funding of some Lincoln Green camouflage for him and his merry mates.

Except in this case

Again, I am no hunting fan. However, my aunt's ex is a professional hunter. He qualified as a pilot so he could fly clients into his concessions, his business absolutely brought money and employment into areas that would need massive investment to support conventional tourists.

No skill in being able to shoot straight?

He didn't, he missed and hit the lion in the neck - and this was a lion that had been lured with food and was probably pretty close.

Again, I am no hunting fan. However, my aunt's ex is a professional hunter. He qualified as a pilot so he could fly clients into his concessions, his business absolutely brought money and employment into areas that would need massive investment to support conventional tourists.

So what, it's still not economically viable to kill animals that bring more in, in terms of tourism than hunting ever does.

The scientists tracking this lion have stated that a significant proportion of the protected lions are killed by hunters when they venture outside the park - that is detrimental to conservation.

1. He would say that. He's likely to be fibbing.

2. It achieves a lot more than petitions and lobbying could in terms of putting the issue on the public and political agenda.

1. You may be right, but YOU would say that.

2. Proof?

This is disagreement/discussion BTW.

So what, it's still not economically viable to kill animals that bring more in, in terms of tourism than hunting ever does.

The scientists tracking this lion have stated that a significant proportion of the protected lions are killed by hunters when they venture outside the park - that is detrimental to conservation.

2. Proof?

It's possibly the biggest news story in the world this week. The thread title could equally apply to Zimbabwe.

This is disagreement

I wouldn't expect anything else from you Al.

Jimjam...
I can't see there being a similar outrage if someone in Scotland killed the wrong deer.

Okay, so it was in Exmoor and not Scotland, but how about [url= http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/oct/25/exmoor-emperor-stag-shot-dead ]this one?[/url]

Best gun for hunting lions:

[img] [/img]

Wonder what they taste like?

Chapa, what does it achieve tho?

One news story vs campaign groups working for years? If the FB sharers/outraged were really bothered surely they'd join up/contribute?

What I was meaning is that I'm not contrary, I'm just not scared of speaking my opinion. I bet we agree on many things.

funkynick

Okay, so it was in Exmoor and not Scotland, but how about this one?

I don't remember seeing that at all. Much less all over the news (on pretty much all media). I think this would have gained less publicity if he'd gone to Africa and raped and killed a human child.

So hunting possibly brings more in than the animals do?

Great...open season on the royal family. Tally ho!

jimjam... it was certainly on the BBC news for a while, and I think the House of Commons got involved at some point as well!

Unfortunately I think you might be right, although I think that says more about the willingness of the human race to abuse and kill people than anything else as it probably happens far more often! Although if it had been a famous child, who people were actually going to see, then I think there might have been some uproar!

Chapa, what does it achieve tho?

In this case what I hope the media flooding has achieved is that every single one of this dentist's customers have heard of what he likes to do with the cash they spend with him. With the amount of coverage it has gained globally it must be all over the local news there. Hopefully a sizeable proportion will choose to take their business elsewhere (but as said above, this is the states and [s]they do love hunting[/s] you can't rely on their dubious morals).

If it also promotes some in your face style physical protest and lightweight vandalism....well, that would be unfortunate.

Campaigning to change the law in a traditional manner might be the more 'mature' way to tackle this sort of thing if you feel so inclined but social media (pitchfork) protest which makes acting this way socially uncomfortable can also effect behaviour too.

Not dissimilar in many ways to leaving a poor review for a cafe, unrelated to their ability to make coffee but more about their morals, in an attempt to reduce their custom 😉

I've often wondered what the crackling on a rhino would be like.

On the radio at lunchtime it said the Dentist had a record in the States for illegally killing a Black Bear.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jul/28/man-accused-in-african-lion-death-convicted-in-08-/

OK, not very much.

OK, not very much.

In your opinion. To be fair, it didn't work for you.

torsoinalake - Member

No skill in being able to shoot straight?

I don't believe we should be unduly upset by the death of one animal. We do kill plenty of animals - it's quite normal.

What we should be upset by is the notion that anyone can KILL FOR PLEASURE.

Earlier in this thread somebody compared hunting animals with mountain biking.

Their argument was that both are enjoyable pastimes and so why should one person who enjoys mountain biking complain about someone else who enjoys hunting animals.

Again I think what should upset us is the concept that someone can KILL FOR PLEASURE.

Making an example of this guy may not be fair or even a consistent message. But if it helps to reduce and eventually stop people from killing animals simply for fun then I'm happy that we make his life a bloody misery until this nasty business is made illegal in all parts of the world.

JAG

Again I think what should upset us is the concept that someone can KILL FOR PLEASURE.

Making an example of this guy may not be fair or even a consistent message. But if it helps to reduce and eventually stop people from killing animals simply for fun then I'm happy that we make his life a bloody misery until this nasty business is made illegal in all parts of the world.

What if the upshot of that ban is that rural economies in Africa fall on their ass, and instead of preserving animals to attract big game hunters and their money locals are forced to kill these animals for food or export leading to their extinction?.

Also, I really struggle with the idea of vilifying someone who enjoys hunting when the animals hunted have good lives and die clean deaths. I've seen animals slaughtered using modern "humane" methods and it's f***ing grim, anything but humane. And that's to say nothing of halaal or kosher slaughter.

I don't agree with what this guy did and would never do it myself but what I don't understand is why minor celebrities seem to be chiming in.

In what way is Ricky Gervais qualified to tell us who can and can't kill an animal?

jimjam - Member

What if the upshot of that ban is that rural economies in Africa fall on their ass, and instead of preserving animals to attract big game hunters and their money locals are forced to kill these animals for food or export leading to their extinction?.

if you can find evidence of good* 'game' management being more succesful at conservation than simple tourism, then we can start that debate**. until then,

...Also, I really struggle with the idea of vilifying someone who enjoys hunting when the animals hunted have good lives and die clean deaths.

the lion at the centre of all this was shot (poorly) in the neck, and took 2 days to die.

(*identifying old/weak animals, those unlikely to survive. That kind of thing, y'know, [i]exactly[/i] the opposite of what happened here)

(**and it is an important debate)

I've also seen animals killed. Both singly and in a Slaughter House and it is always grim - but that's death. It ain't pretty.

I read some where today, BBC I think, that a single Lion is worth more because of the Tourists it can attract and the cash they will pay for tours and safari's. The money the Tourists bring will dwarf a single massive payment for the right to kill the same Lion.

Either way KILLING FOR PLEASURE is the crime here not killing an animal per say.

ahwiles

the lion at the centre of all this was shot (poorly) in the neck, and took 2 days to die.

That's pretty crap in fairness, but I still won't be wishing for the hunter to suffer a painful death, not will I be bleating about it on social media. As I said, we subject our food animals to shit conditions. They are "farmed" in the most brutal, industrial sense. I am okay with that because meat is delicious.

Whilst that lion may have suffered a slow death it might not have been as bad as being crushed into a long narrow corridor being pushed slowly towards it's inevitable death listening to the sights and sounds of it's fellow lions' death throes.

if you can find evidence of good* 'game' management being more succesful at conservation than simple tourism, then we can start that debate**. until then,

As I said back there, I've spoken at length to someone who used to work on one of the largest ranches in Zimbabwe before he was nearly killed trying to defend it. I believe what he told me as he'd lived in SA/Zimbabwe all his life to that point. I think it would be hard to find a source online that was totally neutral or unambiguous and anyway, I'm not sure I feel that strongly as I feel the whole thing is blown out of proportion in every way.

whataboutery, jimjam

Nor do I believe that somebody who made his living from hunting is particularly unbiased.

I'd seen the thing about the lion having to be found and killed because it wasn't a clean shot, but hadn't previously made the connection that actually this bloke is a pretty shit hunter.

What seems even more bizarre is that there's a photo doing the rounds of him posing proudly with a sheep that he shot with his bow and arrow.

Hunting sheep with a bow and arrow!!! 😯 😯