[Closed] All organic?

I don't do all organic. But I would.if it were available and affordable, largely because it's good for the soil and the environment. Also animal welfare.

Find a decent local veg box scheme. And bulk buy dried grains, beans etc. Can be quite reasonably priced.

Organic meat is expensive, so eat less/none of it.

Junk food/biscuits/processed “treats” etc can actually be quite expensive esp. takeaways so you can definitely save money if you’re not buying those.

Supermarket own-brand grains/pulses etc are the same price or cheaper than branded non-organic ones so no huge outlay there. Organic veg not massively more expensive especially if you stretch the definition to stuff from local farms/farmers markets etc that’s grown without pesticides but doesn’t actually have the (very expensive) organic certification. Yes organic meat is a lot more but you can cut down on meat intake!

Would require a lot of discipline but maybe doesn’t have to be particularly expensive.

As above, IIRC a lot of Italian (processed) food is organic now by default as its mandatory for school dinners. If a whole country can do it!

Other than making people believe they are getting a healthier better tasting product that is kinder for the environment what exactly are the proven benefits and is organic farming truly sustainable as a method of feeding the masses on a global scale?

Their motivation is a diet they have read up on to help people with MS.

Then they'd save a lot of money by not believing everything they read on the Internet. There are precisely zero high-quality studies on the interaction between MS and diet (but a metric ****ton of shit ones).

I'm not saying that eating organic isn't a bad thing, rather that if that's their only reason then they're just wasting their money.

Does your friend have MS?

budgierider - organic is certainly better tasting and better for the environment ( perhaps that is arguable as yield per area can be lower)

cougar - is the vit d link with MS not proven? mind you organic will not increase vit d levels

organic is certainly better tasting

I dont agree, its the different varieties of fruits and veg that taste better/different not the growing organically.

is organic farming truly sustainable as a method of feeding the masses on a global scale?

From the very little I've learnt in the last week, I believe the answer to that question is biodynamic not organic farming.

I eat a lot of organic food and not sure it tastes better as a lot of food doesn't have particularly bad processes behind it.
The animal welfare tends to be better though. Compare organic chicken eggs to free range chicken eggs and see the criteria for the conditions the chicken have. Free range is not as good as it sounds...

Eating local and seasonal is probably just as important as organic.

Organic asparagus bussed in from Peru or fresh leeks from down the road?

Absolutly CFH

I will not buy food flown in from far away. I would say eat local is more important.

Then they’d save a lot of money by not believing everything they read on the Internet.

In fairness, MS is pretty unstoppable, and there isn't much that can do more than slow it down a bit. Improving your diet by cutting out processed shite and eating more veg may not be demonstrably effective, but isn't going to do any harm and may make them feel a little less powerless.

I think most of the claims about Organic vs conventional are tenuous at best, but in this case it might well be a motivation that ends up improving the overall quality of a diet.

Better for environment

Not so clear cut

https://www.sciencealert.com/new-study-shows-how-organic-farming-takes-its-toll-on-the-environment

I will not buy food flown in

Again, not so clear cut.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2008/mar/23/food.ethicalliving

organic is certainly better tasting and better for the environment

Maybe,maybe not. Organic, in the UK, just shows you have paid/had the time to fill out the paperwork for the certification which many small scale operations cant do.

@Cougar - yes both my friend and partner have MS.

I've read the book they mentioned re all clean/organic but as others have said, it lacks hard facts. I'm not against the idea and would happily spend the money but if my partner isn't convinced it's a no go.

They did mention lidl is a good place for cheap organic food so might check if out.

Unless they've given up salt, in which case their food will be tasteless, then their diet isn't 100% organic!

My aversion to the whole organic fad came about when I was on Skye and a landowner (John Muir Trust) was looking to get organic certification for the venison on their land and they couldn't as there weren't defined boundaries. So venison from deer that roam around almost wild couldn't be considered organic but if the were fenced in it could be. People can buy organic if they want but it isn't better for you and as CFH says buying local is likely better overall.

Unless they’ve given up salt, in which case their food will be tasteless, then their diet isn’t 100% organic!

The term 'organic' has a different definition in food than it does in chemistry. Pedant.

Not so clear cut

https://www.sciencealert.com/new-study-shows-how-organic-farming-takes-its-toll-on-the-environment
/blockquote>

Indeed. But in the UK where everything that can be dug up has already be dug up, organic has significant environmental benefits.

I suspect that a hybrid approach is best, and that perhaps the strict certification process from the Soil Association is creating an all-or-nothing approach that does not help.

My aversion to the whole organic fad

Nor does throwing the baby out with the bath water.

 

100% clean (no processed foods)

I call BS, unless they're knawing on earth encrusted carrots, picking at raw wheat kernels and taking bites of a cow's rump.

Food processing is a broad spectrum, from peeling a potato to making hash browns for McDonalds. Even porridge oats are actually quite highly processed, as is an organic beef steak (kill cow > diassemble cow > chill and age dead cow > cut up dead aged cow > package bits (probably with some sort of preservative) > season > cook > eat).

I guess it's good to have an awareness of how food is produced, andseeking out things which are less processed is probably a good thing. But when folk say things like "100% clean and unprocessed" it smacks of some sort of faddy diet and little understanding of the complexity of producing enough quality, affordable food for the world.

But when folk say things like “100% clean and unprocessed” it smacks of some sort of faddy diet

I suspect that a hybrid approach is best, and that perhaps the strict certification process from the Soil Association is creating an all-or-nothing approach that does not help.

Mitigating and reducing the effects of climate change and reducing land use will involve the use of GM food.

Which the hippies will just...love.

It really isn't that obvious. Organic wholeweat sourdough artisanal bread is highly processed. Craft biodynamic ale is highly processed. Those instant just add water organic porridge pots are highly processed.

IME tt kind of just means that they're only going to buy stuff that's appropriately virtuous and aspirational.

organic is certainly better tasting and better for the environment ( perhaps that is arguable as yield per area can be lower)

I'm sorry, but neither of those points are valid.

Taste is subjective, but better quality food generally tastes better, but it's not the organic nature of it per-se. 'Organic' is a premium product and as such has a higher standard of quality control.

It could be theoretically better for the environment if there weren't 7.7bn people. Organic farming produces lower yields from a given farmland, higher (and frankly unnecessary) removal of 'ugly' Vegetables further reduces the yield further meaning more wild land being taken for farming.

Add into the mix the fact that Organic farms are rarer meaning food needs to be transported over greater distances.

I suppose one saving is that they don't tend to wash organic veg as much to really sell the idea it's grown in a field, and not like those non-organic lab grown Carrots.

It really isn’t that obvious. Organic wholeweat sourdough artisanal bread is highly processed. Craft biodynamic ale is highly processed.

I used to be evangelical about ‘organic’ but had to concede that everything is becoming lost in either/and definitions/unicorn rainbow claims. Homegrown food (including that from friend’s organic* garden and polytunnel(*in this instance zero pesticides) tastes better to me. But it doesn’t scale up. In an ideal world we’d get to the bottom of this. IMO the discussion is broken, partially due to the fact that ‘organic’ production is ideally and firstly about the environment/diverse ecosystems/tackling toxicity and pollution. This gets lost in the discussion about taste and health. The taste and personal/health benefits would (ideally) be a given. All I know for sure is that no tomatoes ever tasted as good as the ones in grandfather’s greenhouse. No idea if ‘organic’ or not, but you couldn’t eat them in the winter or spring they unless were in a chutney or from the freezer...

Supermarkets beg to differ. And there is the rub.

The term ‘organic’ has a different definition in food than it does in chemistry. Pedant.

Which further demonstrates just how much meaningless and waste of time the label actually is. I would be interested to hear what the difference between Salt that is labelled as organic and salt that is not actually is. I suspect that it really is just a matter of applying a label rather than doing anything different.

Also are you new here 😉

partially due to the fact that ‘organic’ production is ideally and firstly about the environment/diverse ecosystems/tackling toxicity and pollution.

No it isn’t.

It’s about middle class hippies feeling clean. What is best for the climate and the environment isn’t necessarily organic at all.

^Please. 🙄 How does that even help any discussion? Tabloidism?

Malvern, that video you posted just undermined the idea that it is about being better for the environment.

I would be interested to hear what the difference between Salt that is labelled as organic and salt that is not actually is.

Can't technically label salt as organic but there are clear differences between a sea salt processed without adding anything and the 20p a pop table salt with additives such as iodine and anti caking agents.

I use sea salt and it definitely tastes better than table salt if tasted on it's own. Once in food it is questionable and very much I doubt I would pass a blind test.

Malvern, that video you posted just undermined the idea that it is always about being better for the environment.

ftfy. Hence my use of the word ‘ideally’. And my including said video 👍🏼

People can buy organic if they want but it isn’t better for you

Can you prove that?

Mitigating and reducing the effects of climate change and reducing land use will involve the use of GM food.

Not necessarily, however GM isnt bad as such its just what is done with the technology thats the issue.

Organic food uses pesticides!!

Locally grown super organic stuff can be crap and more expensive. I have a local social enterprise that supplies in this format and it is more hit and miss and there is more chance of food waste.

Organic food uses pesticides!!

That statement is true in much the same way that ‘cyclists ride naked!’ is true. Best to ask your local co-op growers exactly what they use before lumping them in with every lazy generalisation or partially-misinforme possibly misleading soundbyte?

*edit

I suspect many ‘organic’ carrots have the wonky ones chucked ?

I also suspect that many don’t. This is fun innit.

What I don't get is this 'ugly' veg not going on sale. I will actively buy the 'wonky' veg - just because my carrot isn't perfectly straight, there is now't wrong with it - I suspect many 'organic' carrots have the wonky ones chucked ?

There's so much misconception here on all sides. Find a farmer you trust and buy fresh from them. Get your ambient staples from a coop like Greencity or Suma. There are pesticides in Organics but very few, generally biological and only in exceptional circumstances.

What is “biological”? You mean naturally occurring yes? Because that makes everything soo much better - hemlock is naturally occurring as well. Excuse me whilst I go and sprinkle some on my avocado toast.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_food#Pesticide_exposure

raybanscontextandattackstrawdefinitions

You mean ‘naturally occurring. bla bla bla hemlock

🙄

A biological pesticide is a biotechnical organism and can be either a biocidal product or a plant protection product. Biological control often includes natural enemies to the pest organisms to be controlled. Natural enemies can be micro-organisms such as bacteria, viruses and fungi or macro-organisms such as nematodes, insects or arachnids.

https://www.kemi.se/en/pesticides-and-biocides/biological-pesticides

Cheers Malvern, that's a great definition. Example: using ladybirds to control aphids.

It includes pesticides using microorganisms, products of microorganisms and plants. So basically anything found and it derived from the natural ****ing world - Indole-3-acetic acid is “biological” except it’s nasty and it’s derivatives are used to produce......agent orange.

Brilliant, truly genius way to classify chemical compounds and active agents.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3boy_tLWeqA

They are obtained from organisms including plants, bacteria and other microbes, fungi, nematodes, etc.[2][2][3] They are often important components of integrated pest management (IPM) programmes, and have received much practical attention as substitutes to synthetic chemical plant protection products (PPPs).

Yup, as above - anything and everything in the natural world - not just microbes or nematodes as your link seems to suggest.

I grew up on the biggest conventional farming operation in Scotland in the 80s, I've worked in farm certification cation including pesticide application on grain crops and I've managed organic farms. Don't tell me that the permissable organic pesticides are more dangerous and applied more than than conventional ones. If you really want to go toe to toe on that subject - meet me in the pub.

Well there seems to be no strong epidemiological evidence or otherwise to support either being more dangerous than the other.

I’m happy to meet up in a pub to argue about it or even just talk. Do we have enough understanding of the environmental or health effects of using different mechanisms/vectors to combat pests? Is it right to be encouraging the public to think that this is a binary - natural/safe vs synthetic/unsafe issue? What happens when the public realise these “natural” microbes are often genetically modified?

organic is certainly better tasting

I might have called BS but recently tried Sainsbury's organic bananas and they are noticeably tastier so always buy them now. However, the cost of buying all organic from the supermarket is a considerable increase, up to 200% easily. Individual items ok, but the while shop regularly isn't affordable.

We tried local veg box, but I prefer to choose what I'm eating rather than beetroot, cabbage, carrots on repeat.

So in the OP, these friends are vegan and organic. My understanding of veganism means you don't touch animal products, but organic fertiliser is mostly cow sh1t. So by going organic, are they no longer pure vegans?

@amatuer no they're not vegan. We were discussing the recent vegan nutters blocking people buying meat when they mentioned going clean/organic.

This has been a really good thread. Always amazed at the knowledge on th8s site!

Which further demonstrates just how much meaningless and waste of time the label actually is. I would be interested to hear what the difference between Salt that is labelled as organic and salt that is not actually is.

It's a label that has a specific meaning according to the soil association. The definitions are available on the soil association website AFAIK. You can read them for yourself.

What is “biological”? You mean naturally occurring yes? Because that makes everything soo much better – hemlock is naturally occurring as well. Excuse me whilst I go and sprinkle some on my avocado toast.

It's not just some nonsense dreamed up in a pub. Read up on on it. It protects the soil and preserves biodiversity on farms amongst other things, including even such things as animal welfare. Organic beef requires that cows spend a lot of time outside (at least 200 days per yer) and eat a lot of grass (at least 60%), for example. And it's been shown that grass-fed beef is better for you as it has more Omega-3 in it.

I suspect many ‘organic’ carrots have the wonky ones chucked ?

I don't think they get chucked. All the wonky fruit and veg goes into the processed food industry where it's chopped up before we get to see it.

Interesting article came out today - organic would have a bad effect on the environment due to the amount of land needed and more travelling for the food

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2220659-going-fully-organic-would-raise-greenhouse-gas-emissions/amp/

biodynamic

The homeopathy of agriculture....

Organic is a way to go but there's no need for any of these methods to applied to all crops in all circumstances. We need to be reducing pesticides and synthetic fertilizers thats a given but this should be via a a combination of measures from GM for resistance to rewilding unproductive areas and corridors for pollinators and watercourses, lowering erosion, rotational cropping and changes to diet. The trouble is people tend to like to go batshit for one thing to the exclusion of all others. People innit, daft.

All I know for sure is that no tomatoes ever tasted as good as the ones in grandfather’s greenhouse.

It’s certainly true that the cherry tomatoes I used to buy in punnets from the supermarket were nice and red and perfectly shaped, but had no appreciable flavour at all, but the cherry tomatoes that my step-dad grew out the back in gro-bags were absolutely delicious, I could eat them like sweets, they had so much flavour to them.
Were they anymore or less organic than the supermarket ones?

Were they anymore or less organic than the supermarket ones?

Depends on what was in the grow bags and what tomato food he gave them (if any)

All I know for sure is that no tomatoes ever tasted as good as the ones in grandfather’s greenhouse. No idea if ‘organic’ or not, but you couldn’t eat them in the winter or spring they unless were in a chutney...

I think I might remember seeing a little bottle of tomato ‘plant food’ in his greenhouse. Most probably a Monsanto minion.

OTOH, friend’s polytunnel toms are not treated with anything, no insecticides, no chemical/synthetic ‘plant food’ etc. And they taste great too.

I’d like to know how supermarkets make their tomatoes all thick-fleshed, pale, and un-tasty. Force-grown and super-refrigerated?