Are any other vaccines or blood tests requires for any medical workers?
If, for example a surgeon developed cataracts, I think he would be required to have the corrective surgery or no longer be permitted to perform surgery.
As a random example my mum is chronically poorly, aside from being a stroke survivor she’s seemingly down now to just the one kidney. I picked her up from hospital after a ‘routine’ operation around Christmas. Contracting Covid will almost certainly finish her off. Are you seriously, as a nurse, going to tell me that “I choose not to have a vaccination for who the * even knows what bullshit reason I’ve just made up” trumps my mother not being dead? Because if you are then you and I are going to have a falling out. I take your point and I broadly agree with it, but we are in atypical times and needs must.
Get vaccinated or * off out of the health service. I know you like your black and white, but for once it really is that simple.
This x1000. Well said.
In a small number of specific areas there are compulsory testing / immunisations and there is an expectation to have them in all areas. Hep B is mandatory in a small number of clinical areas. TB status needs to be known as well for all staff
For me one of the key points is that if you are told BEFORE you take up employment you need to do A,Band C and to be told this AFTER you take up employment is somewhat differnt
Note that Dracs view / experience on this is different from mine.
I signed a disclaimer to protect the NHS from claims after I did not want hep b vaccination ( working with a low risk group and previous bad reaction) If i was a paramedic I would have had the Hep B
Some are to protect the worker and some to protect the patients
Bails, yes I am required to have a hepatitis vaccination and my blood is checked to make sure I have antibodies.
For the record I have reacted badly to every one of the COVID vaccines (all reactions requiring time off sick). I have also continued to roll up my sleeve when asked to and I will continue to do going forwards.
I would have thought that a concerted effort to inform and educate would leave such a small minority unvaccinated that compulsion might not be necessary, and the few remaining could be deployed where they pose no risk.
Which is the plan.
But yes, certain vaccines are required in the health sector to carry out some roles. Some people on here can personally vouch for that.
More cash - thats the plan in Scotland and wales. In England its to dismiss the staff if they do not have the covid jag
Once again for the record I had my covid jags ASAP and think those that don't have them are idiots
Been watching this thread escalate but I have run out of biscuits so have a question!
If you can answer this without breaking rule no1 that would be appreciated!
Fwiw I’m vaccinated. However I agree with tj in principal and am massively against forced vaccination.
So far I have seen no data to suggest vaccinated people are less likely to spread covid. Only seen it suggested they may be more likely due to being psychologically “protected” by being vaccinated. That’s just a theory though!
What I don’t understand is if the vaccine doesn’t stop you contracting covid or spreading covid, how is forced vaccination going to help other people? If the vaccine lessens symptoms wouldn’t it be a case of being vaccinated helps one’s self?
Sorry for the simpleton questions this late in the game! I’m not arguing either point I m just trying to understand
In England its to dismiss the staff if they do not have the covid jag
Yeah I see two problems. The first problem is that unvaccinated health workers might pose a risk to patients (although I don't know how of a risk). And the second problem is that some health workers apparently don't trust the vaccine and the science behind it.
Forcing vaccination under the threat of being sacked might help to solve the first problem but it doesn't really address the second one, which I think is worrying and serious and shouldn't be ignored.
The role of the NHS isn't simply to provide medical care but to advise and educate. In that respect at least they have an obvious responsibility to their employees. I would have thought.
"In England its to dismiss the staff if they do not have the covid jag"
TJ, that is simply not true. I work for an NHS trust in England and "a concerted effort to inform and educate would leave such a small minority unvaccinated that compulsion might not be necessary, and the few remaining could be deployed where they pose no risk." is exactly what is happening. I know because I had the conversation with someone who reports to me last week.
Part of the problem is that we don't know who exactly it will apply to. Doctors, nurses and HCAs obviously, presumably AHPs, but ward clerks? Outpatient receptionists? Porters? Cleaners? IT staff who might be on a ward? Estates maintenance people who could have to go to a patient area? Anyone who could be "face to face" with a patient in a corridor? Depending on how it falls there could be very little left that is guaranteed 100% to never see a patient even in passing, and so very few redeployment opportunities. And then there's the whole "you're a nurse who's refused the jab, I hope you're familiar with double entry book keeping because you work in finance now".
@marksnook Been covered several times and at length in the main thread, I know it's not easy to search but it's there.
It doesn't prevent spread, it does help to reduce it by reducing viral load, etc. That's James's (wrong, IMHO) argument, not that vaccination doesn't work or doesn't help to reduce transmission but that because he's had the virus he has natural reduced chance of spreading, so doesn't feel he needs the virus.
I've also been watching (sometimes from behind my hands at the behaviours) but
For me one of the key points is that if you are told BEFORE you take up employment you need to do A,Band C and to be told this AFTER you take up employment is somewhat differnt
But circumstances change, and when circumstances change then we need to change to meet them. I'm against forcing, I agree it's a choice but come down on the side of a choice between doing what is needed to protect patients, or find something else to do.
TJ, that is simply not true. I work for an NHS trust in England and “a concerted effort to inform and educate would leave such a small minority unvaccinated that compulsion might not be necessary, and the few remaining could be deployed where they pose no risk.” is exactly what is happening. I know because I had the conversation with someone who reports to me last week.
That backs up the interviews with health chiefs at the weekend, vaccinate or redeploy. Anyone refusing to redeploy will potentially then be an issue, but it is not straight out the door with no vaccination
And the second problem is that some health workers apparently don’t trust the vaccine and the science behind it.
The problem with that is that health workers (i.e. anyone who works for the NHS) aren't necessarily vaccine experts, and they can pick up nonsense from Facebook* the same as anyone else. If someone doesn't want the vaccine because of X then you can show them the green book, you can show them all the clinical data, but they might stick to " I think the government are making up all the covid cases to control the population" or "the vaccine is experimental and we don't know what's in it" or "the manufacturer isn't liable if we have a bad reaction so they must know it's going to hurt us".
If someone like TiRed (or in fact a majority of people with the same background, you can always have a lone oddball/grifter) was refusing to take the vaccine then that would be different to an electrician who happens to work in the NHS.
*Edit: I'm not saying that any and all concerns about vaccines are automatically "nonsense from Facebook" btw.
but they might stick to ” I think the government are making up all the covid cases to control the population” or “the vaccine is experimental and we don’t know what’s in it” or “the manufacturer isn’t liable if we have a bad reaction so they must know it’s going to hurt us”.
If that’s the case they have no place working in healthcare.
That backs up the interviews with health chiefs at the weekend, vaccinate or redeploy.
So why were Kings saying something different at the weekend?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/covid-vaccine-nhs-hospital-staff-b1990111.html
A south east London hospital chief has warned it could be on track to lose 1,000 staff if they refuse to have the coronavirus vaccination before it becomes mandatory for health service workers come April.
What becomes mandatory for health service workers come April?
"So why were Kings saying something different at the weekend?"
Because they might struggle to redeploy 1000 people to 'back office' jobs. And even if only a fraction of them are in patent facing roles at the moment, you still need hundreds of new doctors/nurses/etc to replace the people that have been moved to new jobs answering phones.
ernie - potentially because some combination of (a) they can't redeploy 1000 people so if their trust still have that many unvaxxed they have an issue - getting that message out to the staff helps bring the number down and potentially helps focus the minds of any belligerent union reps, (b) if people think that refusing will get them redeployed not sacked the motivation to get vaxxed may not be there (or worse - may be higher - if you are in a front line shitty job and there's an option to refuse vaccination and get moved to a perceived less aggressive role you might even be encouraged to hold off vaccination to get the job move!), (c) the hospital chief doesn't want mandatory vaccination and wants to put pressure on the government to rescind its plans now that its encouraged an extra chunk of hospital staff to get vaxxed. Basically politics with a small p.
So the consequences are they lose their jobs.
Shouldn't it be for Kings to decide what serves patient needs best, rather than politicians?
Or are we saying that the NHS can't be trusted and we need to rely on the more trustworthy politicians?
Vaccine hesitancy among health workers suggests some serious issues which really should be addressed and shouldn’t be brushed under the carpet imo.
Working in social care and having seen the effects of the pandemic through a very particular lens I can safely say that my personal view point was compulsory vaccines. But…
Professionally we and colleagues in associated orgs took a more strategic approach. This focussed on getting the willing vaccinated quickly, working through issues and educating the unsure, and identifying that the remainder who are hardcore really are not a significant issue. But it requires perseverance and 1-1 time in the addressing often quite complex concerns. Using that route we have achieved 97% vacs rate across a range of orgs all with different management teams, located across Scotland.
Vaccine hesitancy among health workers suggests some serious issues which really should be addressed and shouldn’t be brushed under the carpet imo.
Just because folks have a medicine degree or qualification doesn't make them immune from making stupid decisions. They're just as vulnerable to mis-information as the next person. There are any number of clinicians willing to make daft claims regarding vaccines...See Andrew Wakefield for example.
Shouldn’t it be for Kings to decide what serves patient needs best, rather than politicians?
It is a decision for politicians though, as it will need a law change. I'm hoping that they've carefully weighed up the pros and cons given to them by experts and come to a decision carefully, rather than just something that they think plays well with their supporters.
Professionally we and colleagues in associated orgs took a more strategic approach. This focussed on getting the willing vaccinated quickly, working through issues and educating the unsure, and identifying that the remainder who are hardcore really are not a significant issue. But it requires perseverance and 1-1 time in the addressing often quite complex concerns. Using that route we have achieved 97% vacs rate across a range of orgs all with different management teams, located across Scotland.
Surely that is the answer?
Poly suggests that political interference has actually resulted in some health workers being even more determined not to be vaccinated, which apparently is why Kings is talking about losing 1000 employees.
See Andrew Wakefield for example.
The claim is that approximately 10% of health workers haven't been vaccinated, so the problem is bigger than a few individuals.
Vaccine hesitancy among health workers suggests some serious issues which really should be addressed and shouldn’t be brushed under the carpet imo.
With less than 7% of NHS workers not being vaccinated they hardly represent those working in healthcare.
It is a decision for politicians though, as it will need a law change. I’m hoping that they’ve carefully weighed up the pros and cons given to them by experts and come to a decision carefully, rather than just something that they think plays well with their supporters.
Very hopeful of you. all the royal colleges ( as far as I can see) and the unions are against the policy, many senior managers are against the policy and its England only - Wales and Scotland have made it clear they will not be doing this.
Its a purely political ploy. Nothing to do with the actual need and will cause serious issues in its own right
With less than 7% of NHS workers not being vaccinated they hardly represent those working in healthcare.
No it doesn't represent the majority in health care, I'm positive that no one has suggested otherwise.
Whether it's 7% or 10%, as claimed by Kings, it is a relatively small problem which nevertheless involves thousands.
I have no doubt that the importance of the issue is overstated, which is why sparksmcguff's experienced based solution, as outlined above, sounds more reasonable than some arbitrary April 1st deadline set by politicians.
Edit : btw my suggestion of serious issues was in relation to the lack of trust among thousands of health workers with the regards to the vaccine and the science behind it, not being unvaccinated.
Whether it’s 7% or 10%, as claimed by Kings, it is a relatively small problem which nevertheless involves thousands.
I was referring to believing if those 7% aren’t being vaccinated then we should question the vaccine.
Don't know if we are talking cross purpose Drac but I'm supposed to be working so I'll leave it there.
And the second problem is that some health workers apparently don’t trust the vaccine and the science behind it.
The problem with that is that health workers (i.e. anyone who works for the NHS) aren’t necessarily vaccine experts, and they can pick up nonsense from Facebook* the same as anyone else. If
Is it worth taking note when a bona fide vaccine expert raises questions?
I'm not at all surprised at doctors like the Sky news guy being hesitant. When he says that the science is unclear, I think that statement is correct.
Despite being triple jabbed myself, I don't look at these medical professionals as flat earth anti Vax nutjobs. They're not.
Take a listen to Robert Malone on JRE podcast recently. I listened to all three fascinating hours myself.
Not the Atlantic hit piece, or some Twitter soundbite out of context, but the actual conversation.
I thought he came across very well, writing him off as some sort of far right grifter is just silly.
By contrast, Albert Bourla speaking to Lex Friedman came across as, well, a multinational CEO😅
Certainly not full on Dr Evil, but I think the bottom line matters to him above all else.
Take a listen to Robert Malone on JRE podcast recently.
I’d rather drink bleach.
A quick google on Malone gives this
https://www.logically.ai/articles/who-is-dr.-robert-malone
The guy is clearly a clown who has made all sorts of easily disproved claims according to this
Why?
Because I too am under the effect of a mass psychosis. Too easily led by the groupthink of a scientific and medical conspiracy. Or something...
Don’t know if we are talking cross purpose Drac but I’m supposed to be working so I’ll leave it there.
Yeah I think completely missed what you meant. My apologies.
Take a listen to Robert Malone on JRE podcast recently. I listened to all three fascinating hours myself.
Is that Malone who claims he invented mRNA vaccines? I’ll pass.
That's why I suggested listening to the full conversation if you're able.
I'm fortunate that my work is such that I am able to do so.
@tjagain that's exactly the sort of trash article I'm on about.
It simply doesn't tally up with what the guy actually says.
Once again, I'm not anti Vax, I've had three of them already.
I'm simply suggesting listening to an actual expert.
Echo chambers serve nobody IMO. That's what I love about long form podcasting, there's always something out there to challenge your own views.
Jameela Jamil or Roberts Evans in the morning, Alex Jones after lunch 🤣
Lengthy conversation tends to reveal we all have more in common than that which divides. The total opposite to clickbait journalism or Twitter.
He is not an expert tho clearly. He is talking utter balderdash about it and making wild claims that are not true and is associated with far right conspiracy theorists. Its obvious he has nothing of value to say on this at all given that he so quickly descends into wild conspiracy theories.
Is that Malone who claims he invented mRNA vaccines? I’ll pass.
If you can give me the time stamp in that podcast where he says that, I'll send you a box of kinder eggs as a special prize.
It's only in clickbait articles you'll find that claim.
What he claims is that he was part of a team who worked together to develop the tech, and that he filed some patents.
and making wild claims that are not true and is associated with far right conspiracy theorists.
Any specifics on the claims, and which far right conspiracy theorists?
I've skimmed most of this and all the arguments have been made, so I am posting to just agree, that yes they should be vaccinated to work in NHS. Employers decision, if you don't like it, find another job, there are over 1.2million vacancies in the UK at the moment.
A Dr/Nurse/Vet etc has to be qualified from a recognised body to work, is that some kind of discrimination or totalitarianism? No, its just a barrier to entry that must be hurdled. Same with this.
Employers decision, if you don’t like it, find another job, there are over 1.2million vacancies in the UK at the moment.
I maybe over simplifying this, but surly they want to continue their profession there isn't another employer... in the uk any way.
Not quite the same, but I remember that my dad had multiple “mandatory” vaccinations in the RAF, including Yellow Fever. A job in civvy street awaited anyone who didn’t get their vaccines. Not “the same” job, obviously.
I maybe over simplifying this, but surly they want to continue their profession there isn’t another employer… in the uk any way.
I am sure this is true, but so what.
I'd like to join the army - sounds ace, mainly working on your fitness and going for long walks in the countryside.
Ethically, I don't like shooting at people or being shot at though, so if I can be excused that bit.
If you can give me the time stamp in that podcast where he says that, I’ll send you a box of kinder eggs as a special prize.
Well not in that podcast but it is something he claims.
Take a listen to Robert Malone on JRE podcast recently. I listened to all three fascinating hours myself.
Not the Atlantic hit piece, or some Twitter soundbite out of context, but the actual conversation.
I thought he came across very well, writing him off as some sort of far right grifter is just silly.
That was excellent, as was JR interviewing Dr Peter McCullough (cardiologist and more) a few days before and slightly shorter at 2.3/4 hours.
Dr Peter McCullough (cardiologist and more)
Mr "plandemic".
Dr Peter McCullough (cardiologist and more)
Some of which were false and needed a restraining order as he refused to stop using them.
Well not in that podcast but it is something he claims.
Chopping someone's speech mid sentence and then twisting the words to suit a narrative, that's all I'm seeing in that vid.
Sorry bedmaker... I admire your patience, but most of us long ago gave up giving shills like Malone or McCullough too much of our time. By all mean give us a precis of what we're missing. Perhaps in the main thread.
Chopping someone’s speech mid sentence and then twisting the words to suit a narrative, that’s all I’m seeing in that vid.
You’ll be able to find the full video on one of your conspiracy sites, it’s exactly what he claims. You know off the sheet he’s reading off to make sure he’s got his facts right. How can you twist the words “I invented..” into anything else?
Back online after a months ban..........wanders into stw forum to see Joe rogans and Lex Friedmans guests held up as bastions in the fightback against vaccine efficiency and safety......shakes head and mutters obscenities whilst closing door on my way back out.
Any specifics on the claims, and which far right conspiracy theorists?
The claims that he makes that are wrong are outlined in the link I gave. Far right conspiracy theorists - start with Tucker Carlson and carry on from there - you even namecheck one of them yourself
How can you twist the words “I invented..” into anything else?
I invented mRNA technology......
That's the phrase chopped in the video.
That guy above twists the words into 'Malone claims to have invented mRNA vaccines'.
In the podcast I mentioned above, it's more like -
'I invented mRNA technology, which I filed patents for. A huge team of very smart people worked together to use that technology to develop vaccines used in the fight against Zika, HIV and now Covid'.
At no point does he claim to have invented mRNA vaccines.
That claim is simply untrue.
I'm no cheerleader for the guy, I only mentioned him because someone further up the thread talked about listening to vaccine experts as opposed to medical experts more generally, like the doctor in the news clip.
Yes but he is not an expert is he when he makes so many easily disprovable claims
At no point does he claim to have invented mRNA vaccines.
That claim is simply untrue.
But he has. The video stops there but isn’t cut. He literally claims he created the process, which is a complete lie.
Ethically, I don’t like shooting at people or being shot at though, so if I can be excused that bit.
After 20 months of the pandemic, my ethical stance on not shooting people is weakening to be honest.
Sorry, playing catchup.
the whole principles of consent have been worked out to prevent abuse. Covert medication because ” doctor knows best” ...
Waaait a minute now. You're conflating patient consent with staff consent here.
At a patient level you're absolutely correct and I agree with you 100% (or at least, I think people refusing treatment are abject morons, but they have the basic human right to be moronic if they so choose. It's their funeral).
But that's not what I'm arguing about, rather that medical staff have a duty of care which includes taking basic precautions to protect their patients such as receiving vaccinations against a virulent, initially asymptomatic disease in the middle of (I'm amazed no-one's mentioned this before) a global pandemic. There is no single rational, credible reason not to do this unless you're medically unable to receive it (and really, if that's the case then is healthcare an ideal choice of profession?)
C'mon man, why is this still a conversation? It's utterly barking. Someone works in a hospital, literally a building stuffed to overflowing with sick and vulnerable people, they need to grow up and get vaccinated or sod off somewhere else. That right there is the ethical decision.
For me one of the key points is that if you are told BEFORE you take up employment you need to do A,Band C and to be told this AFTER you take up employment is somewhat differnt
Again, I take your point. And again, I'm filing this under "so what?" You're arguing a point of contention purely because it's contentious rather than for any practical reason. Employment contracts change all the time and not always for the better; each and every time the employee has a choice, they can accept the new contract or they can seek employment elsewhere. Yes, it's shit, but this is how the working world turns I'm afraid. This isn't new.
No-one in the UK is being forced to have medical treatment they don't want, this is a tabloid lie. There is always a choice, even if you don't like the alternatives.
Is it worth taking note when a bona fide vaccine expert raises questions?
Define "expert." As mentioned earlier, Wakefield was an 'expert.' That worked out well.
In the podcast I mentioned above, it’s more like –
‘I invented mRNA technology
...
At no point does he claim to have invented mRNA vaccines.
That claim is simply untrue.
Oh come on now. This is special pleading second only to writing "350 million" down the side of a bus and then later protesting that you only said "let's" rather than making any promises. Did he have his fingers crossed?
cougar the person in receipt of the medication is the patient. I am not confusing anything. Everyone staff or not has the "duty of care" its just staff are judged to a higher standard.
I am arguing the point not just because its contentious but because this is a massive change to medical ethics.
Sorry folks - cougar asked a direct question to me.
cougar - pms if you want to discuss / understand this further?
I am arguing the point not just because its contentious but because this is a massive change to medical ethics.
No it isn't, they have to give consent to take the vaccine. We cannot force them to take it.
No it isn’t, they have to give consent to take the vaccine. We cannot force them to take it.
We aren't. If they don't want the vaccine, they will be redeployed. If they can't/won't be redeployed, well welcome to the world of changing work contracts.
No it isn’t, they have to give consent to take the vaccine. We cannot force them to take it.
As above - consent must be given freely without pressure so there can be no valid consent under " take the jag or else"
For consent to be valid, it must be given voluntarily and freely, without pressure or undue influence, by an appropriately informed person who has the capacity to consent to the intervention in question.
NMC
Arrggh =- got sucked back in
cougar the person in receipt of the medication is the patient.
No, first and foremost they're staff and as such have to comply with contractual obligations as per the terms of their employment. And, again, they have a choice here.
I am not confusing anything. Everyone staff or not has the “duty of care” its just staff are judged to a higher standard.
Out of interest what does a lower standard of duty of care look like?
I am arguing the point not just because its contentious but because this is a massive change to medical ethics.
Nonsense, it's bog all to do with ethics. If you were pinning down (actual) patients and jabbing them against their will then I'd agree with you, that would be outrageous. But it's not, it's a requirement that staff dealing with patients are suitably protected for mutual safety. It's arguably unethical not to do this.
Again (again, again), if I'm in hospital I don't want vaccination deniers anywhere near me. I'm not in there on bloody vacation. The last thing I want is some plague vector shitwit attending to my care, I'd rather bleed out.
As above – consent must be given freely without pressure so there can be no valid consent under ” take the jag or else”
Bullshit.
"Have the heart surgery or you will die. " Is this duress or not? No it is not, its a simple choice of cause and effect. There are 1.2million vacancies in the Uk, if you can't comply with the service requirements, get another job, its not duress, its just a way of weeding out the morons.
EG imagine if you are gushing blood from a cut and you are a Dr, your boss says, stop treating people and get some stitiches.
Dr says no, I do not consent to the treatment, my cut will heal naturally.
Boss says, sorry you can no longer treat patients.
Is this Duriss? Is it ****.
For consent to be valid, it must be given voluntarily and freely, without pressure or undue influence, by an appropriately informed person who has the capacity to consent to the intervention in question.
Besides which, as someone else said, a P45 (unfortunately) isn't the only alternative. You could be redeployed to a department where your lack of critical thinking is less likely to kill someone.
cougar sent yo a pm about duty of care
You could be redeployed to a department where your lack of critical thinking is less likely to kill someone.
V funny.
I wish I knew how to add emojis.
Imagine a hypothetical person. Let's call them 'JT'. JT is chatting, in a circle of, say, 5 or 6 other people. They're all talking. 5 people agree on something, and JT just says 'Yeah, but <reason>'. Individually every other person says "That's not the issue here and misses the broader point".
At what point does JT realise that maybe, just maybe, he's the outlier that needs to review his position?
Be interesting to see what happens and how many clinicians move to Wales or Scotland if they feel that strongly about having the jab.
Something about doors, arses, percussion and the exit.
It’s arguably unethical not to do this.
You'd think, wouldn't you.
Guys - its going round in circles now. I understand your points and I agree these clowns need to be dealt with. I am just very uncomfortable with throwing away the huge body of medical ethics over consent and I have explained why. The NMC statement on consent is very clear
I will happily admit when wrong - but looking at things from a different direction is not wrong. Wanting to follow the ethical code tha tthe NMC has is not wrong
Ask yourselves this. How is threatening to sack someone if they do not take a treatment consent "Freely given without pressure"
I am not going to answer again on here - its just making folk cross and I understand why.
You worries are unfounded. Plenty of people have hobsons choice over treatment.
Ask yourselves this. How is threatening to sack someone if they do not take a treatment consent “Freely given without pressure”
I very much doubt that this is a sackable offence. Hell, you probably know this better than I do.
Rather, if you're incapable of performing your job in a safe manner then is it not wholly reasonable for an employer to change your role?
You talk about ethics, what's remotely ethical about having an unvaccinated member of staff wandering around amongst potentially seriously ill patients?
Covid is the disease contracted from SARS-2. Remember SARS-1? The "superbug" that ripped through hospitals with hilarious consequences? Are we learning yet?
You're backing the wrong ethic, I fear.
I very much doubt that this is a sackable offence. Hell, you probably know this better than I do.
Rather, if you’re incapable of performing your job in a safe manner then is it not wholly reasonable for an employer to change your role?
Is being a thick **** a sackable offence? Cos not taking the vaccine pops you in to this category without passing Go.
I very much doubt that this is a sackable offence.
Tell Javid that - he has made it clear - Jag or risk lose your job
Guys – its going round in circles now.
Isn't it just. IMO the thread should have ended after this post by sparkymcguff:
Working in social care and having seen the effects of the pandemic through a very particular lens I can safely say that my personal view point was compulsory vaccines. But…
Professionally we and colleagues in associated orgs took a more strategic approach. This focussed on getting the willing vaccinated quickly, working through issues and educating the unsure, and identifying that the remainder who are hardcore really are not a significant issue. But it requires perseverance and 1-1 time in the addressing often quite complex concerns. Using that route we have achieved 97% vacs rate across a range of orgs all with different management teams, located across Scotland.
It sounds very much like the practical, sensible, and reasonable solution, to vaccine hesitancy within the NHS, without the need for interference from politicians and their arbitrary deadlines.
And yet no one seems to want to comment or discuss that post. Much better to instead focus on anger-fuelled vindictiveness. Apparently.
It sounds very much like the practical, sensible, and reasonable solution, to vaccine hesitancy within the NHS, without the need for interference from politicians and their arbitrary deadlines.
The deadlines are there to force the issue and get vaccinations done in a timely fashion. Care or NHS staff getting their first jab in a year's time is likely to be of little use. The pandemic forces a timescale on the issue. Arguably it needed doing sooner, to make sure the workforce were ready for this winter, and the almost inevitable big winter wave that was always coming down the tracks.
And yet no one seems to want to comment or discuss that post.
Because that didn't scale well across the whole of the care sector, not in England anyway... where the government had to step in and use the law because so many workers were refusing to get vaccinated. I half suspect that the NHS England approach to vaccinations is mostly taking place out of a sense of fairness to the care sector workers... as the levels of unvaccinated staff in the NHS might well be low enough that the law isn't needed to the same degree.
A comment on that post...? For me it outlines the best approach... if that approach could be rolled out everywhere with the same level of success in a short enough timespan to help us get through the pandemic... that would be great.
