An absolute bellend and doesn’t represent any of the consultants who I know.
Wonder what his colleagues honestly think? At what point does saying that on the national news, undermining the entire basis of the NHS covid response, become bringing his profession into disrepute?
A long long way from what he has said or done to reach that point
A long long way from what he has said or done to reach that point
I wouldn't play down the significance of his comments. They are totally at odds to what is now the central strategy to deal with the most serious global health crisis in over a hundred years.
A strategy which has been strongly adopted by the World Health Organisation, and as far as I know every single nation on Earth.
I consider that to be fairly serious.
A long long way from what he has said or done to reach that point
Maybe it shouldn't be.
don,t get me wrong - I think anti vax folk are idiots. My concern is just over the secondary effects that will come from compulsory vaccinations ie the loss of staff that are very much grouped in pockets and also the huge pressure on folk to take vaccinations under duress is both illegal and unethical
Seriously, I’d rather someone like that wasn’t treating me or my family. I’d have no faith in anything he told me, no matter what his area of specialism.
Few weeks back, as Omicron was emerging, I was listening to a S African doctor talking about it to a BBC journo on the radio.
He was coughing a wee bit and the journo said "oh dear, hope you don't have it" or words to that effect.
Doc replied, "yes, I have it but I am fine, just feels like a cold."
He then reeled off his COVID experience.
Alpha in spring 2020.
Double jabbed over the summer.
Delta autumn 2020
Boosted late 2020
Omicron a few weeks later.
Would I prefer the care of the Sky news 'antivax' doc or the triple jabbed and triple Covided doc?
Don't think I'd be too fussed either way tbh, and can't fathom why anyone else should be.
Sorry bedmaker but what’s your point exactly? Are you saying that the jabs don’t provide protection from covid?
I was wondering what it was that he was actually referring to:
1. Covid vaccines don't work - they don't stop you getting it but do massively reduce severity.
2. Vaccines don't stop you spreading it - true but I think we know that, the science is clear.
3. Side effects - plenty of data on that.
The only argument I could see was it doesn't prevent transmission, fair enough, but if he does get it he would be less severe and he'll be able to return to work faster, which for the NHS is a pretty damned good reason for being vaccinated.
I never said anything about vaccines not working, get a grip.
I said that if be happy with either doctor treating me.
The one who has had COVID once, and appears to have some protection from that, or the one who has had three lots of COVID, and three Vax jabs.
I don't think either scenario necessarily affects how they do their job, or their chances of harming me while doing so.
Sacking NHS staff for being vax hesitant is mental.
The one who has had COVID once, and appears to have some protection from that
He said he has picked up having had covid due to an antibody test, that’s a long way from any protection. Even if he did the immunity rate from catching it drops of faster than the vaccine. The science does add up the vaccine and boosters offer greater protection.
It's not his Covid status that would be worrying me, it's his reluctance to have a jab despite all the evidence it is beneficial for the individual and larger society, especially in a health care setting where reducing severity of illness for health practitioners and getting them back to work is vital. What other strange views might he hold that could impact on my treatment.
I never said anything about vaccines not working, get a grip.
Hence the reason I asked you to clarify what you meant, you angry little man
As above, if he doesn’t agree vaccines are absolutely essential, then what other whack job theories does he adhere to. And would I want someone like that treating me.. certainly not if there was an alternative
you angry little man
That should defuse the situation and help to stop it escalating further!
Btw is the reference to little man based on prior knowledge or is it the assumption that only men are likely to make beds?
What other strange views might he hold that could impact on my treatment.
I have had all sorts of healthcare staff with all sorts of odds views from those who do not understand ethics to those who think ill health is gods punishment to those who are downright ill treating vulnerable patients
.
I assume all frontline NHS staff have to take daily PCR tests? It seems stupid to insist on a negative PCR test for every hospital admission if the staff aren't subject to the same.
Dunno about now but the unit I worked in we were never tested as a matter of policy - 9 months ago I left there. I never had a single test at work even when there was an outbreak on the ward. I could never fathom the reason why. Our unit tested patients twice weekly but never staff, the sister unit tested staff weekly but never patients ( one rehab, one psychiatric, same building)
We also were told to turn off the test app thingy at work and not to treat work contracts as contacts despite being exposed to known covid all day but outside work any pings on the app and we were told to isolate
made no sense to me as in both situations I was wearing the same type of mask
I could never fathom the reason why.
Was it simply because they didn’t want staff testing positive and having to isolate ?
Did you ever do a lateral flow out of curiosity?
NHS England has been testing twice per week for well over a year, next week it’s daily for patient contact staff. Which of course is impossible without LFT kits. Patients are LFT tested not PCR I believe on admission.
My wife has been PCR tested on every admission to Raigmore in Inverness these past few weeks, hence my question.
Did you ever do a lateral flow out of curiosity?
I did a PCR once because I wanted to go to a funeral with vulnerable folk there. work cocked it up and i didn't get the result in time so I couldn't go
Never done an LFT, thats the only time I have tested
We were using pcrs at work not LFTs.
Staff are supposed to test twice a week, either LFT or LAMP. There is no one monitoring compliance though. Some wards are better than others. We are now allowing staff with positive household members to treat most patients as long as they are doing daily LFTs.
My wife has been PCR tested on every admission to Raigmore in Inverness these past few weeks, hence my question.
Ah! Maybe I’m mistaken then.
Drac - I think the approach to testing has been very different in Scotland in the NHS. Unless its changed since I left LFTs were never used.
At present, issuing higher grade masks (FFP2/3) to all NHS staff and banning office sharing whilst we are in the current Omicron surge would be a more scientific and sensible approach, not threatening dismissal for being unvaccinated. For a highly contagious virus which is primarily spread by exhalation and inhalation, where vaccines largely don’t stop spread and LFTs only pick up higher viral titres and not necessarily before someone has managed to infect someone else - patient or staff, why wouldn’t you? Omicron is so contagious that surgical masks are next to useless and cloth even worse. Only wear a higher grade mask here to reduce my risk of getting or giving it and particularLy to reduce the risk of a higher viral load.
The NHS are still issuing the same old IPC guidance, thinking daily LFTs are the answer (not even recommending throat swabbing for LFTs) and then wondering why Omicron is rampant through staff and services are struggling - it’s not because a few staff are not vaccinated its because staff have the wrong PPE and sharing poorly ventilated spaces. Javid has unnecessarily painted himself in to a corner with his threats.
Would it cause many people to leave the NHS? I don’t think so. When the NYPD introduced mandatory vax they has around 1200 threaten to quit over it. When it came to the crunch the number of people that actually quit was single digits.
Would it cause many people to leave the NHS?
About 5% from conversations with colleagues. These potential leavers are mostly a mixture of band 2 to band 4 staff (ie. bloody essential) that are fed up with the poor conditions anyway. They can go and earn the same amount, or more, in lots of other settings without the barrage of abuse and increasingly unreasonable demands.
I very much doubt 5% but the problem is its concentrated in certain areas both geographically and within specialties
@tjagain Greater Glasgow NHS Out of Hours are encouraging but not requiring all staff to lft twice a week.
irc - its 9 months since I left but I note "encourage" not "require" Personally I see little point in doing LFTs as the false negative rate is so high
I very much doubt 5% but the problem is its concentrated in certain areas both geographically and within specialties
Possibly correct; I can only comment on my direct interactions with those in the same Trust, although we work across a few, similar, specialities.
Our Trust isn't one of the better ones. We are already working at close to 20% fewer staff than specified... not much wriggle-room left!
LFTs are twice per week for us btw. Never checked up on, although I think most of us are keeping up with them.
LFTs twice a week in the trust I work for. We came close to running out of tests early midweek but I understand that's sorted now.
I thought it was only knuckle draggers that didn't want the vax. Apparently it isn't, but they must be a knob anyway...
Same for our health dept. Boosters mandated.
Also... Proof of Vax before going to a club or bar.... But not needed if you're going to an afl game with say, 5000 others. I would say "you can't make this 5hit up". But apparently you can.
Knuckle draggers and people with university degrees are not mutually exclusive.
Sacking NHS staff for being vax hesitant is mental.
Arguably NHS staff being Vax hesitant in the middle of a global pandemic is mental.
In the case of the consultant he is telling a bunch of vaccination and public health specialists they are wrong, on national TV, challenging a politician with complex medical questions instead of his own profession
I would argue if the GMC don't pull him in for an interview without coffee they aren't fit for purpose
At present, issuing higher grade masks (FFP2/3) to all NHS staff and banning office sharing whilst we are in the current Omicron surge would be a more scientific and sensible approach, not threatening dismissal for being unvaccinated
FFP3 masks in all clinical areas for all staff and everywhere for anyone with increased risk score (immunocompromised etc). Surgical masks mandatory on site for all staff and mandatory in the buildings for everyone. Shared offices are avoided where possible and where not possible the perspex screens are still in situ from previous waves. Don't know about other trusts but I expect their measures are similar.
Interesting that he's a consultant anaesthetist because i know a few medical professionals and the only one who has refused a vaccine is a...
...consultant anaesthetist!
Maybe there has been a scare story on the Anaesthetist-track World forum?
FFP3 masks in all clinical areas for all staff and everywhere for anyone with increased risk score (immunocompromised etc). Surgical masks mandatory on site for all staff and mandatory in the buildings for everyone. Shared offices are avoided where possible and where not possible the perspex screens are still in situ from previous waves. Don’t know about other trusts but I expect their measures are similar.
FFP3 for procedures of aerosol techniques or a dynamic risk assessment by staff, FFP2 for moving around, close contact, when sat down socially distancing, screens and open windows.
I would argue if the GMC don’t pull him in for an interview without coffee they aren’t fit for purpose
Not a chance and it would be badly wrong to do so. thought crime? come off it
Interesting that he’s a consultant anaesthetist because i know a few medical professionals and the only one who has refused a vaccine is a…
…consultant anaesthetist!
Maybe there has been a scare story on the Anaesthetist-track World forum?
There is unfortunately no such equivalent to STW for Anaesthetists - although given that most of them only talk about coffee and road bikes they would fit right in here.
I know quite a lot of anaesthetists - in that I am one - and can confirm that the one you know plus this one in Georges are barking and are definite outliers. We have all seen so many die of Covid that we were desperate to get the first jab in our arms. ITU whilst still busy, given the community case numbers is like night and day to how it was, the vaccines are having a massive effect.
Yup all the A&E consultants I know, GPs, Anaesthetists and other consultants all have been jabbed, very pro-jabbed and happy for it to be compulsory. A few have been quite vocal about this guy and his very different views, which go against the science he’s ignored.
thought crime?
No, challenge to non medic with technical medical questions on national TV during a global pandemic, he'll know he's the now the anti vax poster boy and used to justify not getting jabbed
He didn't need to do it that way
His crime is not a "thought crime", it's a deliberately vocally undermining national public health strategy crime during his paid hours working for the same organisation that is promoting vaccination on national TV.
He could have just gone to the loo and avoided the whole thing
I dont think he's that alone though in saying people who have had covid wouldn't need to get the vaccine. The antibodies from having it cover you.
The antibodies from having it cover you.
But they don’t. Having some antibodies from previous infection(s) do not protect nearly as well as also having the vaccine on top of (or before) infection. There was a time when it was hoped that existing antibodies from infection would mean vaccination isn’t needed to ward off reinfection (and possible ill health), but it hasn’t turned out that way unfortunately. He’s very out of date as regards medical knowledge if he maintains that is the case now.
It's worth remembering when considering whether disciplinary action against Steve James would be justified that when orthopedic surgeon David Nunn embarrassed a NHS trust on national television he was disciplined.
Despite the fact that unlike Steve James the issue David Nunn was making a point about in front of TV cameras was actually the NHS trust's policy.
https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2011/jun/22/surgeon-pm-hospital-leave
was Nunn disciplined - article says he went on indefinite leave, which might have been sensible, stress related, whatever.....
I have a small amount of sympathy - it's an opinion, it's (IMHO) incorrect but not totally crackpot, and it's not just policy but it is a matter that affects people personally more than a directive on tie wearing or car parking charges for example. It's an opinion and discussion he's entitled to have.
But sympathy evaporates when you grandstand it to make a point, slightly tempered if you consider that this might be the one chance to have the conversation, IMHO should have asked to speak to Javid off camera to avoid undermining policy and then no-one would have known.
Some of you guys are getting totally hysterical about this. Point out what the doctor has actually done wrong that he could be disciplined for? You are allowed to question.
Nunn was not disciplined
Should Dr Dix be disciplined for saying "end the booster campaign?
No, challenge to non medic with technical medical questions on national TV during a global pandemic,
The challenge came from Javid, The medic was asked a question and gave an honest answer.
I don’t think he should be disciplined in any way for raising his concerns. The manner of the reporting worries me, and the fuelling of antiVax sentiment coming at a time when the UK is shifting to a pandemic response that is basically vaccinations (and treatments) only. Spreading doubt about our medical response at a time when we are leaning on it so heavily, and watering down social responses (in England) to next to nothing, isn’t responsible, in my opinion.
Anti-vax are all over this response with the typical “Well if our Dr’s, who are experts, won’t have it then it makes you wonder what’s in it.” Completely ignoring the fact he’s represents a tiny amount of NHS Drs.
Should Dr Dix be disciplined for saying “end the booster campaign?
I not sure he needs to be disciplined but a chat a behaviour and perceived attitudes would be beneficial for all parties. Of course Dix shouldn’t be disciplined, he comments are worlds apart. He’s saying as it stands at the moment after this booster it’s looking like, for now, no more or needed. That is far from anything like the other guy.
So in your NHS Drac no one can challenge policy? Please point out what the doc said that merits disciplinary action?
Its worth noting that the trade unions, the professional bodies and the NHS management do not want this policy of mandated vaccines
etc etc
His crime is not a “thought crime”, it’s a deliberately vocally undermining national public health strategy crime during his paid hours working for the same organisation that is promoting vaccination on national TV.
Phrased much better than I tried last night.
If I undermined HMRCs tax policy to the Chancellor on the TV news I'd be out on my ear, no doubt about it.
So in your NHS Drac no one can challenge policy? Please point out what the doc said that merits disciplinary action?
Absolutely nothing like I said. I mentioned behaviours and perceptions, he came across badly, he looked just like an angry individual rather than discussing opinion calmly. Perceived attitude as I say, nothing to do with the vaccine.
was Nunn disciplined – article says he went on indefinite leave, which might have been sensible, stress related, whatever…..
Well maybe disciplined isn't the correct term to describe how they reacted to his embarrassing behaviour in front of national TV cameras, what would you call gardening leave?
But it has ended badly for 57-year-old David Nunn, the orthopaedic surgeon blamed for startling the Prime Minister and his deputy, who has unexpectedly gone on leave, and for his NHS patients who now face longer waits to be seen by Mr Nunn's hard-pressed colleagues.
And btw I'm not necessarily suggesting that Steve James should be disciplined, I am simply pointing out that a NHS trust can be expected to be concerned about the behaviour of their staff in front of national TV cameras.
And that applies to all employers btw.
In his interview this morning, the sum total of his argument was that he didn’t want to be vaccinated and that duration of protection from transmission was about eight weeks. There was really no substance to his message. The former is a position that will be incompatible with employment, and the latter is very poorly estimated.
Will the numbers leaving the NHS due to the policy be more than offset by the now reduced absence due to full vaccination? It’s an obvious question. At a time of high infection I would expect this to be the case.
Dix used the wrong argument. Omicron is a different beast to wild-type, alpha, beta and delta C19 with the key points being it’s much less pathogenic for the vast majority of people but very, very easily spread. The main issue for the NHS is not of staff dying of Omicron but vast numbers having to isolate with a sore throat and runny nose. Being vaccinated largely makes no difference to spread but reduces the risk of serious illness - so the issue of all NHS staff being vaccinated is now out of date. I’m pro-vaccination, triple vaccinated and was quite literally first in the queue at my hospital for it and a few weeks ago was all in favour of the change in law for NHS staff to have to be vaccinated given how many have died. That was before Omicron, now in my view is mandatory vaccination is a non-issue and the right PPE and infection control is the one we should be most concerned about.
Turns out Mr James may have an ulterior motive for downplaying the effectiveness of the vaccine. - Isn't it always the way? He may be a bit of a quack. Lots of "functional medical detox" horseshit on his website...Once again your occasional reminder that completion of a medical degree does immunise one from the profit available through the wellness culture
Can’t say I’m shocked.
Me neither - anti vaxers generally are bampots. Thats not the point tho - the point is the moral and ethical issues around mandatory vaccinations and the staffing issues this will cause
As above - the unions and the royal colleges are against it as are many senior NHS managers
Mandatory vaccination is a moral and ethical issue
Undermining your employers very important public health message is another one entirely.
Unions are very cautiously worded, encouraging all members to get vaccinated but also saying they’re discussing the issue of compulsory vaccines.
Unions and the royal colleges make their opposition clear in carefully worded statements - carefully worded so as not to upset the government
Javid is also a clown here. a basic rule of politics - never ask a question if you are not prepared for an answer you do not want. He should not have been in that ITU anyway - managment should have not allowed him to be there to grandstand
I'm not really understanding the opposition here- when I started training I had to get all kinds of vaccinations including hepatitis and the like, and there was a good clinical reason for this- it was to protect my patients. This is the same clinical reasoning that applies to the covid vaccine- but this time there is an added and very obvious need to protect the community added in too. So why are we getting shitty about it? Just let us get on with it and stop all the anti vax bullshit, I'm sick of hearing it tbh
Shermer - as explained before there are huge ethical and moral issues over this ( mandatory vaccination). Its a massive departure from normal medical practice, consent cannot be given under duress and the threat of dismissal is duress and its going to cause staffing issues.
Its turning centuries of medical ethics on its head. Note its only in England - Scotland and Wales hare not doing this
all those vaccines you had were voluntary and not to protect patients anyway but to protect staff and they are NOT mandatory
Being anti vbax is stupid yes - but making vaccines mandatory is not the answer here. anyone who is sacked for not having it will have an strong case for unfair dismissal
I am astonished how few folk on here even in the trade have so little understanding of medical ethics. I find that really concerning. How can yo stand up for your patients without a basic understanding of ethics, consent and autonomy. Read the NMC guide on autonomy - a keystone of nursing practice.
all those vaccines you had were voluntary and not to protect patients anyway but to protect staff and they are NOT mandatory
Mine were, my eldest is just going through the last steps to start her training with the NHS. She has to have the same vaccines and covid or they’ll not take her on.
NOt so Drac. suggested, encouraged, perhaps even made a condition of starting employment but that is very different from mandatory vaccination of existing staff. I know this for a fact as I refused some they wanted me to have ( rubella, hep and flu)
The managment may make it sound like its compulsory but a[part from a very small number of specialist units there is no mandate on vaccines. Its not a part of your T&C to have them
Having said that - in your job I would have had the lot in an instant
that is very different from mandatory vaccination of existing staff.I know this for a fact as I refused some they wanted me to have
We’ve covered this. I had to have additional vaccines after I started, as did many staff some of which more vaccines then myself. The option was have them or redeployment to a none frontline emergency care position if there as a suitable one.
You’re in different countries… so can both be right without it being contradictory.
Its worth noting that the trade unions, the professional bodies and the NHS management do not want this policy of mandated vaccines
Is that though because they're actually more bothered with staffing levels than whether those staff could pass on Covid to patients?
devbrix
That was before Omicron, now in my view is mandatory vaccination is a non-issue and the right PPE and infection control is the one we should be most concerned about.
Worth remembering that Delta hasn't gone away but is running in parallel to omicron to one degree or another.
Are there now enough anti-vax NHS people to exclusively staff a hospital for the sole use of anti-vax COVID patients?
Kill two bird-brains with one stone.
Like the idea big John! might be a slightly odd staffing mix given that midwives ad anaesthetists seem to be over represented 🙂
Is that though because they’re actually more bothered with staffing levels than whether those staff could pass on Covid to patients?
I suspect that its also the ethical considerations as well as the practical on staffing levels
the mandatory vaccination is a tory political stunt.
You’re in different countries… so can both be right without it being contradictory.
Of course, but look who are doing the arguing! 🤣
You’re in different countries… so can both be right without it being contradictory.
Yup. I work for NHS England who are implanting this.
Of course, but look who are doing the arguing!
🙂
Javid is also a clown here. a basic rule of politics – never ask a question if you are not prepared for an answer you do not want. He should not have been in that ITU anyway – managment should have not allowed him to be there to grandstand
Why what did Javid do? My understanding was that he listened politely to Steve James but respectfully disagreed. I thought even Steve James acknowledged as much?
And of course he should have been in an ITU, as long as all the correct protocols were followed, he's the bleedin Health Minister ffs!
We are at a particularly critical point in an extremely serious and deadly global pandemic. It the duty of the Health Minister to be proactive in the extremely important goal of advising, informing, and educating, the general public.
Visiting an ITU to emphasise the importance of vaccinations in keeping vulnerable people out of ITUs is precisely what I would expect a Health Minister to do. I would be less than impressed if he spent all his time sitting on his fat arse in some plush office. And I'm sure that you would be the first to criticise him if he did that.
.
