Out of interest, are you implying that a vaccinated person who has been exposed to a Covid case should not need to isolate?
You need to familiarise yourself with current guidance buddy.
You need to familiarise yourself with current guidance buddy.
It is indeed surprising that someone would have to ask that, but I guess in their defence the guidance/rules have changes so many times it is hard to keep up.
Yeah, agreed, that's why I followed it up with buddy, it's easy to miss out on the details sometimes, I think we're all a bit covid beaten really.
Drac – a workplace contact for nhs staff won’t count as a reason to isolate IF they were wearing PPE etc, although presumably does between colleagues in the mess room or same vehicle just as it would between my non NHS staff?
However household contacts, people you met down the pub etc are all proper contacts and do require you to isolate/test regardless of profession.
Yes that’s correct only in the work environment. No, mess rooms should still be socially distant and they should wear ppe in work vehicles. Car sharing to work then PPE is asked to be worn.
Drac,
How good do you think compliance with mess room etc stuff is? Are you saying that if two people share the same vehicle - so potentially in the same cab for 4 hrs out of a 12 hr shift? just disposable surgical masks and one tests positive the other is not required to test/isolate?
Do you think compliance is higher in NHS/Amb Sev and do you think staff will feel able to say - well no we both took our masks off in the cab when on our lunch? or there were six of us in the mess room - there’s no way we were all 1m apart ? I’m pretty sure in my private sector world people would say “of course we followed the rules” especially if the alternative is the risk of effectively 10 days in house arrest - quite a sanction for crowding over the paper to look at the crossword.
Ah yes got me on that one point. No, I don't really bother trying to keep up to date with all the changes.
Well yes you can only go off trust to a certain extent. However, despite that, speaking for trust, staff are pretty compliant it’s not all staff of course but certainly a majority.
I can tell you that’s not going to happen, unless staff have broken the PPE and socially distance regulations.
Sorry, what's not going to happen? The story as I told it, or having to isolate if you test positive? I am certain both are true. I'm sure you have got some idea of my position on this, and I have had many disagreements with relative in question, which should give you some idea of their position. Point is - I have no idea why they would make that up.
So, Austria have taken this a step further
Those of us that are worried about the way forced vaccination is being dealt with from sacking 100,00 NHS workers, to only the vaxxed being allowed to leave ther houses in Austria are labelled nutters
having to isolate if you test positive?
That they don’t test in case they are positive because their colleagues and patients will have to isolate. Like I said they’re rules in place so they won’t need to isolate
Point is – I have no idea why they would make that up.
Maybe you misunderstood or they didn’t even say that.
That they don’t test in case they are positive because their colleagues and patients will have to isolate.
I think you misunderstood what I said. This relative tells me that NHS staff where they work avoid testing, because they themselves isolating would place an undue burden of work on the remaining staff at the site.
I did not misunderstand what they said, and even remonstrated that it's preposterous that staff can arbitrarily make such choices about what is best for patients and other staff, while I am required to jump through all sorts of absurd hoops to continue some parts of my life (and a life that does not involve caring for vulnerable and elderly people on a daily basis).
Then again, this person works in a new Welsh hospital that has come under a lot of scrutiny, and some of the tales they tell certainly adds credence to my idea that we are living post-collapse of the NHS (at least here in Wales).
Here we have an example of how stupid compulsory vaccinations are for the NHS
Now we all may think these staff refusing the jags are stupid but its still real and which is worse - a maternity unit with unjagged staff or no maternity unit?
There will be no maternity staff when they're all isolating due to Covid. Then again, maybe that's still better than their stupidity resulting in the deaths of mothers and babies.
That story will be complete fiction so you don't even get to the point of needing to consider the what's worse question.
Does it really seem likely that medical professionals don't see the value in a vaccine? Highly unlikely but not impossible.
Does it seem likely that there are 40 of these people with this unlikely view all working in the same location? Virtually impossible
Right - its an inconvenient truth so its must be made up? unfortunately these people are real.
“If sufficient numbers of unvaccinated staff in a particular service in a particular location choose not to get vaccinated, the viability and/or safety of that service could be at risk.”
From that article. " If" is doing a lot of the heavy lifting in that sentence to make the headline.
I'm not entirely sure how comfortable I am with mandatory vaccination, I accept it's a morally dubious area.
But I'm pretty sure I know where I am with healthcare professionals deciding they know better than all the scientists and chief medical officers around the world and refusing to be jabbed without a valid medical reason. If they want to risk their jobs on a point of principle, I'm sorry, but good luck to them.
If they want to risk their jobs on a point of principle, I’m sorry, but good luck to them.
Even if that means closing services? Seriously which is better - unvaccinated staff or no staff?
In blunt terms, I don't want health professionals that are too stupid to understand the overall benefits of a vaccine programme to deliver my children.
Sounds harsh, but that is the reality.
Seriously which is better – unvaccinated staff or no staff?
Seriously, I don't want to be treated by staff who think they know better than the scientists and chief medical experts. Whether it's arrogance or ignorance, I don't want someone that blinkered caring for me or my loved ones.
I want someone who can understand and follow the science. Because if they can't follow it for their own care in the middle of a pandemic, I don't trust them to follow it when dealing with my and my family.
Actually, that's clarified it in my own head. It's a trust issue.
, I don’t want health professionals that are too stupid to understand the overall benefits of a vaccine programme
Is this the benefits of the first two doses that are now of no benefit against omicron?
Do you believe that the first two doses are of no benefit?
So many of you would rather a service closed than stayed open with unvaccinated staff?
I agree its stupid and I agree these folk are probably not that good at their jobs - but this is an issue I said would happen and now it is.
Even if that means closing services? Seriously which is better – unvaccinated staff or no staff?
Fortunately it looks like the evidence is that is not a decision that will need to be made once a theoretical situation becomes reality.
Mrs C (until Jan) works in care sector in house recruitment but in Scotland. Talking to associates working in England the compulsory jabbing did the trick. All the resistance melted away once the options ran out. The number of staff no longer working in the care sector because of it can't quite be counted on one hand but is vanishly small numbers in an industry that employs tens of thousands*. Employee poles also show a significant improvement in staff morale of those jabbed who had previously been uncomfortable working closely alongside unvaxed colleagues With many now saying they are now more likely than they would have been to stay in their roles longer term. Families of residents are also showing high satisfaction rating after the measures went live.
The conversation about the morals can still be had, but from a practical perspective it has worked - safer residents and happier family members and previously vaxxed employees.
Only caveat - social care has a massive staff retention problem and always has. 40% pa is common in most homes. So the staff employed 6 months ago only bears some similarity to now. Vacancy rates are still massive as they were before the vaccine requirement. Bizarrely there has been an upturn in applicants for unskilled jobs as, bless them, some applicants who are jabbed provably meet some of the job requirements.
Edit - oh and the unvaxxed have not been given non frontline roles in vast numbers - care sector work on too tight margins (and are money grabbing bastards):to get into that sort of charity compromise.
Yeah! I’m really finding it hard to believe 40 staff on the same unit are refusing to have the vaccine. I see your point TJ, to a certain extent, but struggling to believe this. I’m also amazed if it’s true that all 40 are still refusing to continue to put vulnerable patients at risk.
So what are these people going to do for a living once they resign? There are limited opportunities in the private sector. Its bluff on their part. Once the option is a vaccination or unemployment the vast majority will take the jab.
Seriously which is better – unvaccinated staff or no staff?
While I'm not a fan of compulsion, whoever's running that unit (if there is indeed such a place) needs a bloody good talking to if all the staff in it are actually completely unvaccinated. That is shameful. Which leads me to suspect it's probably not true. I can't get 6 GPs to agree on anything, I doubt there's a unit in any hospital where 40 staff agree to this level of idiocy.
I doubt there’s a unit in any hospital where 40 staff agree to this level of idiocy.
Whereas I am sure there are many such units!
Its bluff on their part
I very much doubt it. these are people who are mainly following fundamentalist religions I believe. given the choice ( in their heads) of getting vaccinated and then being condemned to hell or losing their job which will they choose?
Not being vaccinated is not a rational decision so we cannot expect these people to behave rationally
Actually, that’s clarified it in my own head. It’s a trust issue.
Put far more eloquently than myself, but yeah, EXACTLY this.
I very much doubt it
well, they'll be losing their jobs, won't they?
Is this the benefits of the first two doses that are now of no benefit against omicron
what, no benefit... says who...? Booster vaccines are a timing issue. The protection that any vaccine gives you dwindles with time. Call it a booster, third shot, MAGIC OMICRON SAVIOUR, whatever you want, but there's not something magic in the booster the fights Omicron, it just strengthens your immune system against infection.
I know this slightly simplifies it for mRNA vs non-mRNA vaccines, but I fell keeping it simple here might be best for some people.
Put far more eloquently than myself, but yeah, EXACTLY this.
You phrased it how I was originally thinking it! 🤣
Whereas I am sure there are many such units!
93% vaccination up take by NHS staff. Seems unlikely you’d have one unit let alone many.
Not being vaccinated is not a rational decision so we cannot expect these people to behave rationally
But that to you only applies if it’s their religion. Interesting.
It'll be interesting to see how this plays out. In some cases what you'll get is the mandate to get vaccinated crashing head long in to religion as a protected status. How the courts sort that cluster**** out who knows.
In terms of care workers our neighbours care home just lost 12 of it's 26 staff due to not getting the vaccine. They are now using agency staff who are travelling between many homes. Given all permanent staff were doing LFTs every day and PCRs twice a week as mandated by the company and the agency staff aren't; which was the greater risk, unvaccinated daily tested staff working in a single location or agency staff only required to test once a week and working in many locations?
well, they’ll be losing their jobs, won’t they?
and tbhen units closing leading tomore deaths?
Drac - its concentrated into hotspots not evenly distributed.
I cannot think of how to write this without coming over a bit racist but I'll have a go
Vaccine refusal in healthcare workers is mainly in first generation African immigrants. I suspect because of fundamentalist religious groups and their strong influence / control
These folk tend to get concentrated into areas both within services and within localities. If you have a unit with a high concentration of such staff then you have a real issue.
To me this is the old " beware of secondary effects"
Jon above outlines one clearly
the other being this could lead to unit closures.
But that to you only applies if it’s their religion. Interesting.
Where on earth did you get that from?
and tbhen units closing leading tomore deaths?
Having unvaccinated staff leading to death any better?
Which course of action creates less risk? I get the moral position - I think its unutterably stupid not to have the jag. what I am cautioning against is not seeing the unwanted secondary effects or dismissing them as meaningless.
Its absolutist v pragmatic
Where on earth did you get that from?
From this.
I very much doubt it. these are people who are mainly following fundamentalist religions I believe. given the choice ( in their heads) of getting vaccinated and then being condemned to hell or losing their job which will they choose?
Not being vaccinated is not a rational decision so we cannot expect these people to behave rationally
Hope that helps
Drac – its concentrated into hotspots not evenly distributed.
What is? The uptake.
I get your concern TJ, and I can understand the sensitivity around race or religion, but I'm afraid, based on comments from friends in the NHS and comments from others on here with first hand knowledge, it's going to be a very few units nationally where the problem is this serious and the majority of people don't have a problem if it comes to it.
Hope that helps
Yes - I now see you have conflated two statements and added 2+2 to make 3!
The decision not to be vaccinated is never a rational one. this might be religious based or it might be some other reason. I believe its mainly religious based but religious based or not its still irrational
What is? The uptake.
Yes
Yes – I now see you have conflated two statements and added 2+2 to make 3!
The decision not to be vaccinated is never a rational one. this might be religious based or it might be some other reason. I believe its mainly religious based but religious based or not its still irrational
Not sure that’s made it any clearer but sorry if I’m misunderstanding your point.
it’s going to be a very few units nationally where the problem is this serious
Yes - but if as it appears to be concentrated in specialties and geographic areas then in might cause real issues in those geographical areas
Yes – but if as it appears to be concentrated in specialties and geographic areas then in might cause real issues in those geographical areas
If that were the case then yes but there seems to be no real evidence that’s the cases.
Not sure that’s made it any clearer but sorry if I’m misunderstanding your point.
I get where you are coming from - given my known loathing of religion and i wasn't clear.
Its the decision not to be vaccinated that is irrational. It doesn't matter if its religious or some other reason so i am NOT saying its only irrational if religious.
If that were the case then yes but there seems to be no real evidence that’s the cases.
There is plenty of data on this.
There is plenty of data on this.
Is there? Also which religions don’t support vaccines?
Also which religions don’t support vaccines?
Most if not all of the main religions have sub sects which vary widely in their interpretation of religious texts and practices as well as social controls. Anyone who bangs on about all Christians or all Muslims or all Hindus etc are just showing their lack of understanding of that religion usually due to some antipathy to that or all religion
Also which religions don’t support vaccines?
Of the top of my head? christian scientists? Jehovah witness? * Ithink)
As big and daft says tho its more about some odd sects / fundamentalists within religeons
Is there?
Yes - the regional variations in NHS staff take up of vaccines is well documented Its on the NHS website if you want to dig into to it and has been in many news stories
The latest NHS figures show vaccination rates vary hugely: among hospitals, Dorset County hospital has the highest at 94.6%, while Barts Health NHS Trust has the lowest rate of fully vaccinated staff, at 79.7%.
I'll clear up one of those points TJ.
Jehovah's Witnesses do not object to the Covid-19 vaccines and have supported it's uptake to prevent serious illness or death.
Just for clarity.
Of the top of my head? christian scientists? Jehovah witness? * Ithink)
Jehovah Witness no they don’t refuse on religious grounds. I don’t think the UK has much of a population of Christian Scientists.
Barts Health NHS Trust has the lowest rate of fully vaccinated staff, at 79.7%.
So the lowest at around 80% seems unlikely they’ll be many units with high amounts of unvaccinated frontline staff.
Jehovah Witness no they don’t
Some do. There is a JW chuch group in Ringwood who won't have it on religious grounds as they determine it to be a medical intervention.
As TJ says, there are subsets of all religions that interpret the "rules" differently.
So the lowest at around 80% seems unlikely they’ll be many units with high amounts of unvaccinated frontline staff.
I'm with Drac. I'm still not feeling this is likely to be a major problem, and if vaccination rates are lower mainly in major urban areas I can't see any hypothetical unit closures leaving an area with no cover at all - lower availability or quality of care maybe.
I understand your concerns around this whole issue TJ, but I'm not sure the data is supporting the risks that you think it does.
(In true STW fashion, I have no separate data to support my view.)
sorry, that didn't work as intended!
Well the NHS leaders seem to think it a problem. and the stats agree
and if vaccination rates are lower mainly in major urban areas I can’t see any hypothetical unit closures leaving an area with no cover at all –
Remember in England trusts are in competition not co operation.
if vaccination rates are lower mainly in major urban areas I can’t see any hypothetical unit closures leaving an area with no cover at all
What about the effect of having large (relatively) numbers of staff unvaccinated on staffing levels when a wave hits (like this winter)?
That ~80% worse case for trusts is very reassuring actually. I thought it might be lower, considering the regional variations in uptake for flu jabs for health staff.
@TJ your interpretation of the stats around this fact fits very well with your 'state overreach' narrative. Why do you think this is?
I know I'm trolling a bit here, but I'm not going to apologise. I haven't looked closely at the stats, and I'm also not disagreeing with the anti-authoritarian concerns. But I think we all have to be mindful of when we are performing mental gymnastics.
Remember in England trusts are in competition not co operation.
Not since the "Five Year Forward View" they're not. It comes down to: Is it safer to close a unit rather than have unvaccinated staff running it? I can guess the CQC's take on it.
I was wondering how to phrase it, but yes, maybe you are interpreting the figures to support your entirely reasonable concerns about the rights and wrongs of compulsory vaccination.
Even in the article, I'm not seeing data to justify, as I pointed out earlier, a very large "if" in the reported concerns.
I think there is a debate around idealism and pragmatism on the issue but I personally don't think we want to be justifying what you yourself consider stupidity in health care staff, ever.
Some do. There is a JW chuch group in Ringwood who won’t have it on religious grounds as they determine it to be a medical intervention.
The subset of those belonging to such a church and also working in a hospital 'medically intervening' with others is surely (thankfully) vanishingly small, or in fact zero.
The number of extreme JWs - or any other group opposed to medical intervention - employed in health care settings should be small enough to stand out in even the most cursory of audits!
There is a JW chuch group in Ringwood who won’t have it on religious grounds as they determine it to be a medical intervention.
They all must work in the same maternity unit.
I'm not saying they work in the nhs, but there is at least one I know of that has just left the care sector because of the vaccine mandate.
You asked what religions object to vaccines. I provided one example that I know of.
I did and so far we have 2 possible religions, none of which are a high number and one of which is unlikely to work in the NHS. And we have a sample of 1 person leaving the care sector, so they’re not having a significant effect.
Chris Hopson, the chief executive of NHS Providers, said that at one hospital trust in England, 40 midwives were refusing to get jabbed, raising fears that the maternity unit may have to close.
I was wondering how to phrase it, but yes, maybe you are interpreting the figures to support your entirely reasonable concerns about the rights and wrongs of compulsory vaccination.
Nope - I am just seeing this differntly. some of you are looking at the broad brush figures and seeing no issue. I understand this is a very concentrated and local effect as in the quote above. So yes across the NHS as a whole no huge issue but in particular areas or units - a huge issue
NHS providers is a private company, not part of the NHS.
https://nhsproviders.org/about-us/working-for-us/our-team/chris-hopson
Its part of the funny setup they have in england is it not?
Stupid formatting linky no worky.
NHS Providers is the membership organisation for NHS trusts in England, which takes part in negotiations between the trusts and the Department of Health[1] and provides development support to trust leaders.[2] Until 2011, it was a section of the NHS Confederation.
Claiming 90% of trusts as members, NHS Providers is overseen by a board of 20 trust chiefs.[3] The organisation's chief executive since 2012[4] is Chris Hopson[5] and its chair is Sir Ron Kerr, former chief executive of Guy's and St Thomas' NHS Foundation Trust, London.[6]
So, was actually in a London hospital and skirted the conversation over a few visits with a few staff recently. The response: Not too fussed, we have all caught it before being vaccinated, impossible to work in hospital and not get it. Then we got vaccinated, then another other variant came, but it’s not as bad as the one we already caught and have natural antibodies + vaccination against. I simplify greatly but mainly they didn’t much care. Patients with it a few metres away. Just dealing with it with zero panic or judgement. Covered losing key personnel and they said it was a massive problem but bigger worries are retirement, early retirement, going private, moving out of the city, or healthcare altogether. When you add this latest issue to an already stressed system is where trouble builds up. Hope there is good succession planning for key people across the whole country.
Just seen the figures for our trust, it covers all staff. They’re very high which explains why I’ve literally had one person ask what may happen. I’m still struggling to believe there’s a unit with 40 unvaccinated midwives.
Local trust is now progressing with 1 to 1s with the unvaccinated staff (in the relevant population). As I understand it 1st April is the deadline.
On Wednesday Sir David Nicholson, the former chief executive of NHS England who is now the chair of the Sandwell and West Birmingham hospitals trust, said that it could lose hundreds of staff as a result of mandatory vaccination.
Still think this is not an issue?
Looks like Sky News are about to get kicked off Twitter: https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1479532922952732672
My fiancée is a reporting radiographer and all she’s been doing is reporting covid X-rays, I’ve seen them…. They’re horrific!
What it does to the lungs is truly disgusting, the white patches can be so thick it looks like bone.
All jabs had here, so glad too as it’s the unvaccinated in most of the cases locally who are in ICU
On Wednesday Sir David Nicholson, the former chief executive of NHS England who is now the chair of the Sandwell and West Birmingham hospitals trust, said that it could lose hundreds of staff as a result of mandatory vaccination.
I could win the lottery if I bought a ticket.
Saw that Sky report on last nights news. MrsMC, who is far more relaxed about Covid and "the rules" than I am suggested that the consultant came across as a "proper knob".
Seriously, I'd rather someone like that wasn't treating me or my family. I'd have no faith in anything he told me, no matter what his area of specialism.
I'm sorry for his colleagues who'd have to pick up his work, and the delays his loss would cause patients, but that attitude has no place in the NHS.
So to go back to TJs restarting post
On Wednesday Sir David Nicholson, the former chief executive of NHS England who is now the chair of the Sandwell and West Birmingham hospitals trust, said that it could lose hundreds of staff as a result of mandatory vaccination.
Good. They undermine the credibility of the service they are supposed to represent.
Still think this is not an issue?
Though I accept it's an issue.
consultant came across as a “proper knob”.
An absolute bellend and doesn’t represent any of the consultants who I know.
