To spin it – if an employee doing a physical role had a chronic back problem that stopped them doing their job that could only be possibly resolved with surgery they could currently be quite legally dismissed on grounds of capability. Under your definition of duress if that person could only keep their job if they had that surgery that would constitute duress. And thousands of people annually end their employment like that. I’m not aware of lots of litigation off the back of it (if due process is followed).
An excellent analogy - thank you.
nonsense- not a paralell at all
It's a hell of a lot more relevant to the discussion than forced sterilization of all males in order to protect the planet - which you thought was bang on, lol.
Like it or not, covid has changed a lot of things for a lot of people. Anyone entering a career as a healthcare professional from this point forwards is going to have to agree to have had their government mandated vaccines. Your point is that those who entered the profession prior to that, cannot lose their jobs because they refuse to get the jab - because that's duress.
My question is: at what point do "consequences of your actions" become "duress" in your mind? Lets do a quiz..... consequences or duress?. It's open-book, so everyone should feel free to refer to any lecture notes that they might have.
If I refuse to vaccinate my children, they can't go to school, and I have to give up work. Duress or consequences?
If I have a back condition requiring surgery, and I'll lose my job (because I'll be unable to do it) if I don't have it, duress or consequences?
Birthday party invitations that my kids are receiving are beginning to specify that only "fully vaccinated" families are welcome. I'm not vaccinated because I'm only 40 and play squash twice a week, so I'm not at risk even if I do catch it. If I don't get vaccinated, my kids won't be able to go to any birthday parties and will become social pariahs. Duress or consequences?
I work as a cleaner in an ICU, and I don't want to have the covid vaccine because Joe Rogan told me I could just have ivermectin instead if I catch it, and anyway, it's not really approved and it can make your testicles swell up to the size of watermelons. If I don't have it, I'll lose my Job, and have to go and clean offices instead. Duress or consequences?
I work as a care home assistant, and come in to contact with lots of people susceptible to covid as part of my job. I don't want to have the covid vaccine because I'm an evangelical Christian and I believe that covid is a righteous plague sent by god to kill only the non-believers, therefore I will not catch it. If I don't get the Jab I'll lose my job, and have to go and work in a profession where the jab isn't required. Duress or consequences.
I'm a midwife, and I don't want the vaccine because of unspecified non-medical reasons. If I don't have the vaccine, then I will have to transfer to a non-front-line role, or if that's not possible: leave the NHS. I'll be unable to get a new job in a healthcare setting, because any new employer will require vaccination anyway. So I will have to re-train for another career, or I could take a job in retail or similar, which doesn't require retraining. Consequences or duress?
I doubt you’ll hear from Stampjumper again.
I imagine he will come up with another excellent username and hop back on after a few weeks. Not sure what he's getting out of the experience, probably thinks he's socking it to the sheeple.
Just booked me booster... i is sheeple but i can lick windows reasonably safely in early December..
Remember sheeple covids not just for Christmas...
I do wonder how anti vaxxers fail to see news articles about anti Vaxx protests. It’s a weird algorithm that hides those articles from them and not me
I’m not vaccinated because I’m only 40 and play squash twice a week, so I’m not at risk even if I do catch it.
So many people like this. It's like they haven't seen the last two years at all.
But didn't an expert say only the other day than playing squash gives you immunity?
I was 'meh' about the risks of the vaccine(s). Due to previous employment I've had much worse injected into me. The exclamation of surprise from OH when I did an immunisation review for my current job still tickles me.
I find it interesting that we're nine pages in now and despite a degree of righteous outrage no-one has yet come up with a legitimate reason why they're opposed to vaccinations beyond "HELP HELP I'M BEING OPPRESSED!!"
So many people like this. It’s like they haven’t seen the last two hundred years at all.
FTFY.
Why doesn’t STW maintain – and make available – a list of banned posters and their various new user names?
We need to know.
Speaking from the point of view of someone who was a STW moderator for a decade: Spotting returning banned is really easy. Like, far easier than they think, because almost universally they're abject roasters who perpetually make the same mistake of assuming that we're daft. Identifying which specific returning banned they are though is considerably trickier, it's an art (but one we got reasonably proficient at).
Even without access to mod tools I'm fairly confident that I know of at least three RBs right now and I'm maybe 50:50 on who they are. I have every faith that the incumbent moderators are at least of similar mind. The mods may or may not know with certainty who they were but I guarantee they know where they are.
In any case: the point where you "need to know" is beyond they point they will get banned again.
Meanwhile, here in Wales, aka Topsy Turvy Land, you now need a vaccine to go to the cinema, but not to work in healthcare.
I find it interesting that we’re nine pages in now and despite a degree of righteous outrage no-one has yet come up with a legitimate reason why they’re opposed to vaccinations beyond “HELP HELP I’M BEING OPPRESSED!!”
I only fancy doing unknown drugs on my terms 🙂
despite a degree of righteous outrage no-one has yet come up with a legitimate reason why they’re opposed to vaccinations
There is no logical reason
However in law a decision does not need to be logical or even not batshit crazy to be "competent" in law
My concern is not over the vaccinations - I had mine but over the coercion for healthcare workers and what that does to medical ethics
I had mine but over the coercion for healthcare workers and what that does to medical ethics
Blimey I wish I’d know that from the start of this thread. 🙂
But didn’t an expert say only the other day than playing squash gives you immunity?
Yes, I seen that in YouTube too but it was removed got hide the truth.
So many people like this. It’s like they haven’t seen the last two years at all.
They have absolutely no idea how vaccines work and then say we just use herd immunity.
Anyone working in the NHS who doesn't want a vaccination should pootle off to Austria
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59245018
@Cougar - i shall put my head above the parapet here about the nine pages in and no specific objection being detailed. Well mine are below. If you can discuss it, im more than open to it! There's no need for anyone to use the word 'cretin', there's no need to claim that i'm a flat earther or anything like that. On a side note, it seems on here that if you have a slightly different opinion than the masses then it's OK to hurl abuse at people or label them as thick etc...and these same people claim to be liberal and tolerant, when really they are only that as long as everyone agrees with them (and i'm not referring to you Cougar here to be clear)!
1. The government (especially this one) have lied about some monumental things. WHy would they be telling the truth about this? What makes this any different?
2. The stats that Boris et al quote are skewed at best. One i saw a few weeks ago was that x% of patients in hospital haven't had any vaccination, but when i read the small print the stats were from Feb 2021 when of course far fewer had been vaccinated. Again, not strictly true.
3. The current vaccines have been given a 'for emergency use only' so regardless of what anyone says, there just isn't enough information on any potential side effects. Comparing this to the Hep B vaccine doesn't stack up because Hep B vaccines have been in use for years whereas these haven't. You can still catch Covid, still pass it on....so what is the point? I test before i see my parents etc so i can be sure as i can be that i'm not infected.
4. Two years in to this kerfuffle and i still haven't heard of anyone (customers, friends, friends of friends, acquaintances, the bloke in the pub, neighbours, neighbours friends, colleagues etc) who has actually been ill or knows anyone who has. Everyone seems to have shaken it off in a couple of weeks tops.
I think for the people who fall into the vulnerable categories, i'm all for vaccinating them.
I'm no anti vaxxer at all, but fundamentally i would prefer what i put in my body to be rigorously and sufficiently tested. In the mean time, i will be looking after myself, testing regularly and wearing a mask when in shops etc.
With reference to the profile detailed a couple of pages back regarding your average 'anti vaxxer', i'm afraid i do not fit into any of the categories that one or two have mentioned.
Come on then, convince me to get a vaccine....give me your best reasons and like i say, i'm open minded enough!
Two years in to this kerfuffle and i still haven’t heard of anyone (customers, friends, friends of friends, acquaintances, the bloke in the pub, neighbours, neighbours friends, colleagues etc) who has actually been ill or knows anyone who has. Everyone seems to have shaken it off in a couple of weeks tops.
I have in fact many, some still suffering yet. We lost a colleague to it and I met with another rushed into hospital, I spent some time with them before leaving them for what looked like the last time anyone who knew them would seem them again. What I do know is out of the same demographic I know no one who has refused the vaccine and not one of them has been unwell for more than 24 hours.
Burn the Troll!
Come on then, convince me to get a vaccine….give me your best reasons and like i say, i’m open minded enough!
107,849,975
That's the number of doses given in the UK alone. How many people have been made seriously ill from all those doses? A few hundred, if that. Over 140,000 have died from Covid
@lamp - I know you were specifically debating @Cougar but must address some of your points -
3. Hep B has only been in use since the 80's and the schedule is still being tweaked - recently the change to required 5yr booster - how can you trust them/ it? surely if they are still working on it's schedule it cant be trustworthy? OR perhaps, like all science/ medicine it is evidence based and the knowledge and practice are constantly updated. You can also be a non-responder to Hep-B vaccine so wouldn't be so confident, unless specifically tested for antibodies, which isn't routinely done for travel medicine, then you can have no confidence in it.
4. - I'll pop upstairs and let my wife know not to worry about her dad in hospital with Covid, as its all ok. She is an ITU doc and been working in horrific conditions and seen things that make me glad I left ITU years ago - but I'm sure she will take the waffling of a random internet expert seriously and just chill out about it all.
Also as an Occ Health nurse, I've also dealt with enough people who haven't 'shaken it off' to know this is bullshit also, or maybe I just need to tell them to sort themselves out, it couldn't possibly be Covid/ long-Covid as a bloke on singletrack hasn't experienced it?
I'm sure I'm feeding the troll but you're a muppet if you believe what you've written, and like Cougar has commented multiple times, I have no time for your bullshit anecdotal arsehatery.
1. The government (especially this one) have lied about some monumental things. WHy would they be telling the truth about this? What makes this any different?
That is mind-blowing. What a way to live.
"I don't trust indicators on other people's cars, because I saw someone use them incorrectly?"
How many times have they told the truth?
What would benefit them by lying about this?
That is mind-blowing. What a way to live.
“I don’t trust indicators on other people’s cars, because I saw someone use them incorrectly?”
How many times have they told the truth?What would benefit them by lying about this?
And that's before you remember the uncomfortable truth that this is not a UK thing but a Global thing. If Brexit has taught us anything it's that our leaders don't play nice together.....yet they all managed to get together a spin a line about vaccines and keep on message.
Some people's minds must be pretty messed up to live in.
Two years in to this kerfuffle and i still haven’t heard of anyone (customers, friends, friends of friends, acquaintances, the bloke in the pub, neighbours, neighbours friends, colleagues etc) who has actually been ill or knows anyone who has.
I find that staggering. You don't anyone who knows someone who has had COVID-19?
Do you live somewhere very remote?
"..yet they all managed to get together a spin a line about vaccines and keep on message."
Er, no...
The Astra jab was deemed a bit dodgy by some countries, non?
The Astra jab was deemed a bit dodgy by some countries, non?
Which makes it even more amazing a cover up - they managed to have a nuanced disagreement and still keep on a global message about vaccines being a good thing. Apart from Bolsonaro, the snitch. That's the man I'd be clinging to for sage advice come the end of days.
I’m no anti vaxxer at all, but fundamentally i would prefer what i put in my body to be rigorously and sufficiently tested.
Obviously you have never used recreational drugs purchased from your local dealer/ mate/ random in a club.......
The Astra jab was deemed a bit dodgy by some countries, non?
I don't think any country claimed it was dodgy. Some, possibly for political reasons, questioned it's effectiveness. Some questioned the level of risk it might be associated with. Both considerations could apply to any vaccine.
No country claimed that it contained a microchip so that Bill Gates could keep an eye on your daily movements. That would be dodgy, if you were bothered about Bill Gates knowing your movements.
fundamentally i would prefer what i put in my body to be rigorously and sufficiently tested.
I'll pick this one as no one else has.
Probably the most extensively tested vaccine brought in to use. The whole world practically stopped what it was doing and focused all its time, effort and brain power on getting it developed and tested. Same volume of work and testing, just concentrated in time as everything else got put to one side.
I personally know no one who's reacted to the vaccine worse than my daughter with a 4 day headache. I know two people who died of covid and only one of whom would be considered "vulnerable".
Come on then, convince me to get a vaccine….give me your best reasons and like i say, i’m open minded enough!
I doubt some gob on a web forum can allay the irrational fears that you hold despite the insurmountable evidence provided by the scientific community over the previous 18months so I’ll pass
Come on then, convince me to get a vaccine….give me your best reasons and like i say, i’m open minded enough!
How about you provide more insight into the 'majority of NHS staff' claim?
It's the village that's missing its idiot that I'm concerned about....
@lamp you really want a sensible debate on your points?
1. The government (especially this one) have lied about some monumental things. WHy would they be telling the truth about this? What makes this any different?
Governments don't approve medicines, independent regulators do. In my experience everyone in those regulatory is absolutely robust in their independence and if there was any serious concern that either a manufacturer or a government was trying to influence a safety decision they would whistleblow. Its conceivable that one or two country's regulators might succumb to political pressure - but given so many have approved so many vaccines I think you are showing some unnecessary concern, after all, what does any individual government gain from its regulator approving a product that others do not? And think your logic through for that - because its likely to at least make one of your other 3 points seem crazy.
2. The stats that Boris et al quote are skewed at best. One i saw a few weeks ago was that x% of patients in hospital haven’t had any vaccination, but when i read the small print the stats were from Feb 2021 when of course far fewer had been vaccinated. Again, not strictly true.
OK anyone who makes their decisions either for or against something because that bumbling buffoon said something is clearly deluded.
Latest data from ONS covering a six month period:
In England, between 2 January and 2 July 2021, there were 51,281 deaths involving coronavirus (COVID-19); 640 occurred in people who were fully vaccinated, which includes people who had been infected before they were vaccinated. (Source: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/articles/deathsinvolvingcovid19byvaccinationstatusengland/deathsoccurringbetween2januaryand2july2021)
but the stats don't initially look so good the longer it goes on I hear you cry; well, read and digest this article by David Spiegelhalter, a highly renowned statistician who is frequently quite critical of government misuse of stats and clearly isn't in the Johnson fan club:
3. The current vaccines have been given a ‘for emergency use only’ so regardless of what anyone says, there just isn’t enough information on any potential side effects. Comparing this to the Hep B vaccine doesn’t stack up because Hep B vaccines have been in use for years whereas these haven’t. You can still catch Covid, still pass it on….so what is the point? I test before i see my parents etc so i can be sure as i can be that i’m not infected.
You have a misnomer (or two!) on there. Firstly the Pfizer and Astrazeneca vaccines aren't "for emergency use" in the UK they have "Temporary Authorisation", I presume you've picked up on some US terminology (where they talk about Emergency Use Authorisation) - but even then its not "for emergency use". The Moderna and Janssen vaccines have conditional authorisation. There's subtle differences between the two - but its wrong to call either emergency use only. There's probably more data on the side effects of all 4 of these vaccines than virtually any other new drug put on the market. What is missing is long term efficacy data - ie. how long before you need a booster (especially for different age groups etc). How many people need to have been given the vaccine and survived unscathed before you will accept that they are safe given you obviously don't trust the experienced statisticians at the MHRA and other global regulators to make that assessment?
Yes you can still catch covid, yes you can still pass it on. But all the clinical evidence suggests you are MUCH less likely to get severely ill and MUCH less likely to die (regardless of your age or other conditions) if you are fully vaccinated - that is the point. Yes its possible that without being vaccinated you will get very ill or die anyway, but that's a roll of the dice. There is some evidence that suggest you may be less likely to pass it on after vaccination, but there is some data that question that for new variants (although its difficult to define control groups as social behaviours etc constantly change).
Your assumption is that you don't have the virus so won't pass it to your parents or other people because you are regularly testing, is flawed. No test is 100% reliable and self test for covid at home are certainly not. If it spots 70% of cases that's good enough to be useful to help stop the spread but it means there's a real risk that people like you are "hugging their grannies" in the false belief that they almost certainly don't have covid when they may do. If you have been double vaccinated AND tested negative then baysian statistics would suggest it is then less likely to be a false negative and you would be protecting others even more.
4. Two years in to this kerfuffle and i still haven’t heard of anyone (customers, friends, friends of friends, acquaintances, the bloke in the pub, neighbours, neighbours friends, colleagues etc) who has actually been ill or knows anyone who has. Everyone seems to have shaken it off in a couple of weeks tops.
That seems strange to me. You've used two different phrases which is either tricking yourself or being intentionally obtuse. Either you don't know anyone who has actually been ill or people have shaken it off - it can't be both. I think what you are trying to say is you don't know anyone who has been very ill - because the alternative is almost impossible. That's a bit surprising to me, whilst most people I've met or heard of who have been ill have recovered within 2 to 3 weeks and describe it as being like a nasty flu (which don't forget kills many people every year and is a part of another mass vaccination program) but I personally know: 2 people who died from covid (both over 65 but not people you'd have expected to die this year anyway), indirectly know about 3 or 4 others, and an elderly neighbour who nobody expected to come home form the hospital after 3 months but has done but has gone from being a fairly active octogenarian to being bedbound. I also know someone in their 40s who spent three nights in hospital and someone in their 50s who spent 3 weeks in ITU, and someone who is normally a very fit athlete in her 50s who is still suffering long covid now from the first wave - it took her 9 months to be able to run again and she's only now getting back close to the form she was on before but reports being constantly tired. And during the summer I bumped into a friend (he's 39) who can usually run a 5k in half my time walking with sticks ~8 weeks after a covid infection. He was due to get his first dose of the vaccine the week he got sick. My brother, who works in a hospital, got it in the first wave and describes it as the sickest he's ever been: normally fit and well in his early 40's: was back at work after 2-3 weeks but was still coughing and wheezing walking up stairs for another 2-3.
You may not be anti-vax but your final point sure sounds like you are a covid denier. Are you one of the people who believes hospitals weren't really overrun, operations didn't need to be cancelled and NHS staff were sitting around empty wards waiting for the surge that never came?
I think if you want to seem credible in arguing against a vaccine you probably need to pick one main argument and stick to it rather than flipping between 4 - because that seems like you've made a decision and will then use any glimmer of an argument to back it up.
Personally I've no issue if you just don't want a vaccine, I don't even need you to justify it to me. It's your choice, as TJ says you have the right to consent or not no matter how irrational your argument might be. Where it becomes more concerning is when you start preaching those reasons, because it becomes a mechanism (even if unintended) for recruiting others to join your arguments.
Now if you are an NHS England employee (I assume you are not if you don't think people actually get very sick with Covid) in a patient-facing role, it may be (if this becomes reality) that you will have to change job or quite possibly find yourself leaving the NHS because of your convictions. That's when it becomes a test of how seriously do you believe your arguments and how much are you just being difficult.
@lamp -
if you have a slightly different opinion than the masses then it’s OK to hurl abuse at people or label them as thick etc…
Whilst it's a fun game to be special, actual lives are at stake and people are dying. Neither I nor the virus cares about anyone's "opinion" I'm afraid.
1. The government (especially this one) have lied about some monumental things. WHy would they be telling the truth about this? What makes this any different?
Yes they have, you're quite correct. I wouldn't trust "the government (especially this one)" to tell me whether it was raining or not. But what is the "this" that they'd be lying about and what would they hope to gain from doing so in the midst of a global pandemic?
2. The stats that Boris et al quote are skewed at best.
This is a variation of 1. You may well be right. So what?
3. The current vaccines have been given a ‘for emergency use only’
No they haven't. And even if they were, well, this is an emergency. Fire extinguishers are for emergency use only, that doesn't make them bottles of petrol.
so regardless of what anyone says, there just isn’t enough information on any potential side effects.
This is flat out nonsense I'm afraid. We have two centuries' worth of data on vaccination. Know many people with Polio, do you?
Even if we didn't, where's your information on potential side effects from contracting SARS-Coronvirus-2? Why do you think that coming down with Covid is preferable to a vaccine?
You can still catch Covid, still pass it on….so what is the point?
The point is...
4. Two years in to this kerfuffle and i still haven’t heard of anyone (customers, friends, friends of friends, acquaintances, the bloke in the pub, neighbours, neighbours friends, colleagues etc) who has actually been ill or knows anyone who has. Everyone seems to have shaken it off in a couple of weeks tops.
So you do, in fact, know people who have been ill then?
In reply to your previous "what's the point?" question: were the ones you know who got better vaccinated?
I think for the people who fall into the vulnerable categories, i’m all for vaccinating them.
Many of the people who fall into the vulnerable categories cannot be vaccinated, precisely because they're vulnerable. That is, again, the point.
I’m no anti vaxxer at all
Sure you aren't.
but fundamentally i would prefer what i put in my body to be rigorously and sufficiently tested.
It is.
convince me to get a vaccine….give me your best reasons and like i say, i’m open minded enough!
Are you? Are you really? Is there anything I or anyone else could say that would convince you?
You demonstrably, fundamentally don't understand how vaccination works. Which is fine, you don't need to, life hopefully goes on. But that being the case you either need to learn about it or you need to accept that cleverer people than you (and I) know more about it. If you reject both of those positions then I'm sorry but position number three involves the words you were railing against at the start of your post.
I personally know no one who’s reacted to the vaccine worse than my daughter with a 4 day headache.
I do. Me. It put me on my back for 12 hours and I was off work for two days. I was shivering one minute, sweating bullets the next, shaking like a shitting dog and felt like I'd fallen down the stairs. It was bloody horrible.
I have (amongst many) a team mate who caught CV2. Where I was off work for two days, he came down with Covid and was off for two months and still isn't particularly grand several months later.
He has - sorry, had - an uncle who wasn't that lucky. "Long-term side effects" anyone? Well, you might have a long term in which to get side effects.
Get vaccinated, it's better than the potential alternatives.
ok then @lamp..... here we go. Just to be clear: I'm not calling you a cretin, but I will say that all of your points have been discussed (and answered in multiple ways) ad infinitum both on here and in the national media, both in the UK and in almost every other country around the world. If you still have genuine questions about this stuff I would be surprised. But as I said, here we go:
1. The government (especially this one) have lied about some monumental things. WHy would they be telling the truth about this? What makes this any different?
What specifically do you think they are lying about? Whatever it is, fine, don't listen to the government: listen to the doctors, the nurses, the public health experts, both in the UK, or in any other country. Read an article in Nature, the New Scientist, the BMJ - or do you think everyone is lying? (FYI: that would put you firmly in the cretin category)
2. The stats that Boris et al quote are skewed at best. One i saw a few weeks ago was that x% of patients in hospital haven’t had any vaccination, but when i read the small print the stats were from Feb 2021 when of course far fewer had been vaccinated. Again, not strictly true.
There are lots of sources of information available - some more reliable than others. If you found one which you identified as being misleading - just look at any number of other ones. For example, googling "% of UK hospital admissions vaccinated" brings this back as the first hit:
Pretty clear explanation. If you don't believe the BMJ, then refer to my answer to question #1
3. The current vaccines have been given a ‘for emergency use only’ so regardless of what anyone says, there just isn’t enough information on any potential side effects. Comparing this to the Hep B vaccine doesn’t stack up because Hep B vaccines have been in use for years whereas these haven’t. You can still catch Covid, still pass it on….so what is the point? I test before i see my parents etc so i can be sure as i can be that i’m not infected.
There is a lot to unpack in that lot. Yes, it's been given emergency approval (or each countries equivalent)..... because the COVID-19 pandemic is an emergency. However that does not mean there is "not enough information on side effects" - it's just how the approval process works. Pretty much every covid vaccine is under "emergency use authorization" in pretty much every country, despite 7.3 BILLION doses being given to date a huge number of trials having reported data, and a massive amount of scrutiny being given to any and every emerging trend. There is nowhere to go on this subject really: you either believe what all of these doctors, experts, scientists etc are telling you, have published and has been scruitinised.... and found to be safe and effective, or you don't. If you don't, then refer to answer #1.
4. Two years in to this kerfuffle and i still haven’t heard of anyone (customers, friends, friends of friends, acquaintances, the bloke in the pub, neighbours, neighbours friends, colleagues etc) who has actually been ill or knows anyone who has. Everyone seems to have shaken it off in a couple of weeks tops.
Is this some kind of dog whistle to the fact you think this is a conspiracy? Do you doubt the fact that 142,000 people in the UK have died of COVID (probably significantly more actually) and over 5,000,000 people have died worldwide (again, probably significantly more)? If so, see #1.
"i still haven’t heard of" is not the same as something not happening (I think that's obvious, but maybe it's not?). Maybe you only have 3 friends and they are all hermits? Two of my relatives have died of it, and I know a few people with long covid - there are many people who I have spoken to with the same experience. I believe there is a whole thread on here about people's own covid experience.
I actually don't think that what you are saying here is true, but even if it was.... and you really don't know anyone who-knows-anyone who's been significantly impacted by Covid, is your position really that: despite all of the information that you have about COVID, you still don't really understand quite how dangerous/serious it is because you don't personally know anyone who has died/has been seriously ill? Do you look both ways when crossing the road? Does your house have a smoke alarm?
So I guess where I have ended up is...... you might not be a cretin (and I'm not calling you a cretin), but your reasons given for not being vaccinated are the same as those of a cretin.
Probably the most extensively tested vaccine brought in to use. The whole world practically stopped what it was doing and focused all its time, effort and brain power on getting it developed and tested. Same volume of work and testing, just concentrated in time as everything else got put to one side.
The short term effects have been rxamined in great detail but the medium and long term is still very much a mystery.
It is only recently becoming apparent that booster jabs are necessary. The full and comprehensive testing didn't reveal that little nugget of wisdom. What else is there to discover?
Granted, Covid also holds long term mysteries, but which holds the most risk is up for me to decide, not you!
Some very good replies for you there lamp. Being open minded, looking at research/expert advice from medical side rather than government I imagine you are now booking your vaccine?
By the way, I live in a small village (no the punchline is not about village idiots) and three people have died (died, not been slightly ill) from Covid and my wife was in hospital wth it.
Granted, Covid also holds long term mysteries, but which holds the most risk is up for me to decide, not you!
That's fine. Please quote the scientific papers and sources you are using to make your informed choice.
"That’s fine. Please quote the scientific papers and sources you are using to make your informed choice."
Duh?
It is only recently becoming apparent that booster jabs are necessary. The full and comprehensive testing didn’t reveal that little nugget of wisdom. What else is there to discover?
w r o n g
It was widely acknowledged and reported that boosters would be needed at some point, it just wasn't known when.
Granted, Covid also holds long term mysteries, but which holds the most risk is up for me to decide, not you!
And what information are you using to make that decision?
There are risks from any medication, they are risks from any illness -being able to weight those up logically seems to be the issue, especially when an added factor for some people is that it is a big government conspiracy...
The short term effects have been rxamined in great detail but the medium and long term is still very much a mystery.
Well depends what you mean. A year ago I was also a bit sceptical/surprised about how fast vaccines based on new technology had been produced. Valneva have produced a vaccine using "classic" vaccine science and only just getting to market now (although if they'd had a bit more gov support I'm sure it could have been a bit quicker). However, I bothered to go and understand how the "innovative" vaccines (e.g. mRNA) had done it so quick - and the answer is they didn't! They've been working on those innovations for about 10 yrs, all they did was switch the particular targets they were encoding. So there is some long term data on the underlying vaccine platforms - its just the particular proteins that are being encoded that are (obviously) peculiar to sars-cov2. The safety profile is not really a long term mystery - many experts in medicine safety have spent many days scrutinising the products and their offerings. If you are a competent scientist who has identified a weakness in what they've scrutinised then probably best to pop your message to the MHRA and perhaps ask the editors of the Lancet and BMJ to include it. It is possible that some new, previously unknown risk will come to light but then it is possible that some new long term side effect of covid infection will come to light. But mostly the "we don't know the long term effects" people are just feeding an anti-vax misinformation campaign - especially when they use stuff like this to support their point:
It is only recently becoming apparent that booster jabs are necessary.
I think that is misleading. You say that like it was a surprise or a discovery that came out of research that nobody had anticipated. It has always been apparent to anyone vaguely connected with vaccines that boosters would likely be required at some point, and I think your "only recently" is just is disingenuous - we've been doing boosters for some time based on the available evidence! We would give flu boosters every six months if the disease was as prevalent as COVID so lets not present needing a booster as a weakness of the vaccines which exceed everyone's original hopes for how much they might reduce the death rate by.
Plenty of vaccines need boosters. I'd assume this would be considered. The common ones like tetanus, polio etc. all have more than one dose and you get additional doses in some circumstances.
Part of the ongoing trials are to assess this and understand the needs.
Even with well established vaccines there is research (it is the nature of science to question!). I think it was rabies that when I had the first 3 doses I was told I'd need a booster at 5 years. When it came to 5 they had enough information to say, actually, you are good for 10.
I still find it weird that people have decided that the covid vaccine is something to be worried about. I understand the idea that you don't want to have something when you don't know what's in it but how much do you really understand about what is in everything else? Toothpaste, shampoo, molluscs, pringles, mince, chicken Mcnuggets, potatoes - I mean I've never read a study on the ingredients on any of those things. What's the line that is crossed with the vaccine?
It is only recently becoming apparent that booster jabs are necessary. The full and comprehensive testing didn’t reveal that little nugget of wisdom. What else is there to discover?
It hasn’t at all. That was mentioned from before it was even tested, thanks to decades of research on vaccines and development.
https://theconversation.com/a-coronavirus-vaccine-may-require-boosters-heres-what-that-means-143370
I still find it weird that people have decided that the covid vaccine is something to be worried about
Speaking personally as a practice manager at a GP, I meet and speak with folks who're still hesitant or haven't had it . Most folks aren't rabid anti-vaxxers (met just one who came into the surgery to hand out leaflets) most folks fall into 1. don't trust that it'll work, or will have weird side effects. 2. don't think COVID is dangerous to them personally 3. haven't really thought about it. 4. can't be bothered 5. very rarely; folks that just don't care about anyone else's health (often same people as 2) and lastly fall into some other minor category such as religious beliefs.
Granted, Covid also holds long term mysteries, but which holds the most risk is up for me to decide, not you!
For the u****ing millionth time, no one is taking this decision away from you.
What they are saying is that while you place the tiny, tiny, tiny risk of personal harm from the vaccine above the most vulnerable members of society, you can't interact with them professionally (whether in a care home or hospital).
That's it.
I have a colleague who is firmly in category 2 and 5 of the above. That and she can’t be arsed to drive the 3 miles to the vaccination centre.
Duh
Well that's cleared that up then.
Just want to add, absolute superbly written response from poly on the previous page. 👏👏
I have no time for your bullshit anecdotal arsehatery.
Was the highlight for me
I'd be interested to know the sources for the parts about 'not knowing about the likelihood of boosters' and the surprise at the vaccines main job currently being prevention of serious illness more than the prevention of transmission.
I'm not really sure I've seen much of either, I am however sure I've seen a truckload that contradicts those perceptions.
Is that a case of having "news" preselected for someone, or by the person in question, or something else. Such as not reading past the headlines etc?
What’s the line that is crossed with the vaccine?
It's just right-wing nutjobs pulling society's buttons and trying to piss off the establishment, that's all. Even if they are doing it subconsciously.
What’s the line that is crossed with the vaccine?
Some folks just don't like to be told what to do. It pissed them off that everyone was "being paid to sit at home" and now it pisses them off that they have to get a jab. Dare I mention the words Boomer, Entitled and Attitude?
It’s just right-wing nutjobs pulling society’s buttons
Fake news. You push buttons.
Dare I mention the words Boomer, Entitled and Attitude?
Snowflake.
Snowflake.
Them too. Anecdotally, the two groups who are the biggest refuseniks in the practice currently are 20-30 because they're immortal obvs, and the Well Boomers, who are all fine, healthy, can't see what all the fuss is about, why can't i go to the golf club, etc etc...
"It has always been apparent to anyone vaguely connected with vaccines that boosters would likely be required at some point, and I think your “only recently” is just is disingenuous "
Then why is this a surprise to so many?
It's one thing for those "in the know" to know, but why not be more vocal in explaining it to everyone? Similarly, why promote the vaccines as the silver bullet that will rid us of covid and help protect each other? It has been known since last year that the vaccines' ability to prevent transmission is sketchy at best, yet this is how it has been sold to us, allowing many people to believe they no longer need to wear masks in confined spaces. This perhaps explains why covid cases are rocketing, yet related deaths are near record low levels. The vaccine does not prevent hosting or re-infection. It simply makes any symptoms less serious. Why then is it necessary to force members of the medical professions to get vaccinated when wearing a mask is more effective?
It smacks of clutching at straws...
And ethically, as TJ said, is extremely dubious!
I give up.
It’s one thing for those “in the know” to know, but why not be more vocal in explaining it to everyone?
I guess their mistake was thinking everyone was paying attention to their Gran telling them she'd had a jab for Flu every year for the last half a century.
Then why is this a surprise to so many?
It’s one thing for those “in the know” to know, but why not be more vocal in explaining it to everyone?
Scroll back a few hundred pages here and you'll see it from people working in that field. Pretty sure it was talked about on BBC News when vaccines came out. It was out there people didn't (want?) to read it
why promote the vaccines as the silver bullet that will rid us of covid and help protect each other?
It was never said, even by the government to be fair, to get rid of Covid, it was always said the vaccine reduced the chance of serious illness, which would ease pressure on the NHS which meant restrictions could be relaxed. And they gave been. Again, it was out there but people didn't bother reading, hearing and understanding it.
This perhaps explains why covid cases are rocketing, yet related deaths are near record low levels. The vaccine does not prevent hosting or re-infection.
So not returning to offices, no masks, no limits on people you can meet, not that venues have no limits and because travel restrictions have gone. So, despite all those being lifted the cases still haven’t reached the highest levels, deaths are down and a majority deaths are on the unvaccinated. And yet you think it doesn’t help reduce infection?
I have little sympathy. When you have relatives that are effectively living in a well furnished prison, get the farkin jab. Their life won't improve until we get this problem beat.
MIL can only have 1 visit a week, and that's two nominated people. She's never seen one of her great grand children, and she's 18 months old. Catching covid is still rife in care settings, and hospitals. It's not us 'visitors' causing it - we can't have visitors at our local hospital, yet, in hospital catching of covid remains high.
Who is bringing it in then ?
One i saw a few weeks ago was that x% of patients in hospital haven’t had any vaccination, but when i read the small print the stats were from Feb 2021 when of course far fewer had been vaccinated. Again, not strictly true.
Some pretty compelling data coming through on the remarkable positive impact of C19 vaccination on admission, serious illness and death. Essentially in this sample only about 5% of C19 admissions are double vaccinated and 2% of the seriously ill and they tend to be very old.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00558-2/fulltext
Problem is when these findings come out of Bojo’s mouth it inevitably sounds totally unconvincing.
I choose not to employ plague rats.
How many people do you employ Cougar?
I think we should all take the vaccine but language like this is not helpful when there is a very real risk of care homes closing for example.
Clouded in mystery, behind the Great Firewall, Sinophavac and Sinopharm (the latter I've been vaccinated with), following tried and tested technology, is reportedly lower efficacy.
We had people over here spouting the misinformation surrounding mRNA technology vaccines until finally enough people told them to listen to what they were saying, sentence by sentence, word by word.
The pandemic is now endemic. The world has changed. You can take the vaccines now, or wait and take them later. There is likely to be no difference, except poverty. Those willing to lose their jobs and tgeb have to explain to potential future employers how they're not a team player might be making a big mistake.
I'm in a job that I'm required to be vaccinated to step foot on the premises. I've had to take plenty of vaccines in the past whilst travelling the world. It's typical, borne out of necessity. Like the series of rabies vaccines I had recently after a scratch. First drug gave me a serious adverse reaction halfway through the course, so I then had to start another drug. I get somewhat sick with all vaccinations admittedly.
Could be that certain communities are in bubbles of expectations and behaviour which, in this endemic crisis, needs their rulebooks rewritten.
Not sure where we are going to replace outlr lost healthcare workers from. Many societies we used to recruit from are more vaccine hesitant than our own society.
To sort of return this to topic.
Beyond TJ's ethical concerns, I wonder if this compulsion might actually do a good few of these non vaccinateds a favour. If you have nailed your colours to the good ship Antivax or SS Covid is a Myth and that's your 'edgy' new persona it must be quite hard to climb back down. In the world of the blind the one-eyed man is king - all your mates are as thick as shit so you having an alternative opinion, even a shit one, makes you the turd covered in sprinkles. You were once Dave the nobody who everybody ignored and now you are 'Antivx Dave', the local celeb nutjob with hundreds of like minded mates online. Then you have bellends like me calling you a dribbling moron - you are not going to let me win and take it now are you (see also Brexit)?
But being 'made' to take it or you'll lose your job - now there's a climb down mechanism that requires no loss of face and allows you to continue to blame everyone else with an added layer of big brother dictatorship to complain about; but secretly be kind of pleased you've got to take it. Toddler psychology 101.
To sort of return this to topic.
Thank you
How many people do you employ Cougar?
At this specific moment, none. But I've been involved in recruitment on and off since the mid-90s.
I think we should all take the vaccine but language like this is not helpful when there is a very real risk of care homes closing for example.
When there's a very real risk of care homes closing robust language is required because the alternative isn't working, we've tried. It is brilliant that people are questioning things, more of this sort of thing, but we already have answers to these questions and they don't want to hear them. It's a year on from when the CV vaccine was released and 225 years since Jenner first stuck a needle in his gardener's son and saved his life and yet we've still got people going "but why / I don't understand / mercury / autism / foetuses / untested / long-term effects / whatever other random ignorance you care to mention" and ten pages and counting of gentle explanation clearly isn't making the blindest bit of difference.
We had this self same argument around language with post-ref brexit five years ago and whilst you may actually be correct, how many minds has "being nice" actually changed? Anyone surprised that our "convince me" contributor hasn't been back? Were we mean to them?
If you don't like being told what to do then learn something and you won't need to be, if you don't want to learn something then put some trust in people whose life work this is. There's a lot of them. Vaccination works. The SARS vaccine has been subject to rigorous testing, just faster than usual because more people have worked on it than usual, because pandemic.
This isn't hard. Please stop trying to make it hard.
The SARS vaccine has been subject to rigorous testing, just faster than usual because more people have worked on it than usual, because pandemic.
🙋🏻♂️ SARS is decades of research which added to the ability to produce the covid 19 vaccine as well as the reasons you mention.
Anyway can we get back the original topic as we are drifting into covid thread.
“It has always been apparent to anyone vaguely connected with vaccines that boosters would likely be required at some point, and I think your “only recently” is just is disingenuous ”
Then why is this a surprise to so many?
I don't know. I wasn't aware it was a surprise to anybody never mind many? Where do you get your information that makes you surprised by this because I get most of mine from mainstream media and people like Prof Linda Bauld and Prof Devi Sridar (both public health experts - not vaccine gurus) have been talking about this on TV and newspapers since the rollout started.
It’s one thing for those “in the know” to know, but why not be more vocal in explaining it to everyone?
If you don't like the press - they are both regular twitter posters too. Certainly in Scotland's briefings I'm sure the First Minister, Health Minister, and Jason Leitch (Clinical Director of NHS Scotland) have all also answered questions early on about (a) how long immunity might last and (b) if there would be a booster program.
I obviously have my own prior knowledge bias - but I honestly think you'd have to go out your way to avoid covid vaccine discussions to not know this was always expected, some people thought with such a new vaccine it might not even last 6 months!
Similarly, why promote the vaccines as the silver bullet that will rid us of covid and help protect each other?
Again - I think to come to that conclusion you are being very selective in who you listen to. In fairness to the government they've had a LOT of public briefings so you didn't only get Boris' bluster but could hear the CMO and Chief Scientists saying that vaccines were key but weren't a magic solution.
It has been known since last year that the vaccines’ ability to prevent transmission is sketchy at best, yet this is how it has been sold to us,
And yet when the vaccines were rolled out the messaging was clear - don't assume you can't pass it on. Are people just listening to the bits of the story they want to believe?
allowing many people to believe they no longer need to wear masks in confined spaces.
I can't account for stupid. I live in a part of the UK where mask wearing is legally required in many places still and compliance is fairly good - although falling.
This perhaps explains why covid cases are rocketing,
Where are you seeing cases rocketing? Scottish case levels did rocket and have fallen to an unhappy plateau and creeping up slowly https://www.travellingtabby.com/scotland-coronavirus-tracker/ which might be expected with the time of year and perhaps a COP26 effect.
Depending how much you want to read into the bumps the UK numbers have been fairly consistent since the start of summer, or have gone through three blips since the start of summer and are currently on a downward trend.
yet related deaths are near record low levels.
So almost like the vaccine works?
The vaccine does not prevent hosting or re-infection.
It simply makes any symptoms less serious. Why then is it necessary to force members of the medical professions to get vaccinated when wearing a mask is more effective?
If large numbers of NHS staff get sick or are forced to isolate because of exposure to sick people then the system breaks. Other colleagues get overwhelmed and are either off with stress of quit and the whole lot breaks down.
Making symptoms less serious was exactly the intention of the vaccine. I've no issue with people saying they think its wrong to make vaccination mandatory - but when the arguments against that start propagating vaccine myths rather than just a freedom/consent matter then its really damaging not just for the healthcare debate - but for people outside that who might have been swithering on the vaccine and are swayed against it on misleading info.
Well done poly, once again 👏
Yup.
My dad caught covid even with being double vaccinated, 10 days in hospital then on oxygen at home for a while, so without that vaccine he'd probably be dead, luckily my mum wasn't infected, he then went on to get his booster jab, so people banging on about antibodies and they've had covid so don't need the jab quit gambling with your and other people's lives, you're no expert. There's no pandemic amongst the vaccinated, the cases are massively reduced to easily managable levels, plain and simple, it's gonna be around for a few more years adapting into more deadly variants if dumb people don't stop this anti vax bs, it's not like its the first vaccine pushed on you, those thick as 💩 trump supporters in America are gonna keep the US a covid hotspot for years. We're better than that.
In the beginning of this month there were 255 uk covid deaths in one day, being this far down the line of vaccine availability makes this figure utterly shameful.
it’s gonna be around for a few more years adapting into more deadly variants if dumb people don’t stop this anti vax bs, it’s not like its the first vaccine pushed on you, those thick as 💩 trump supporters in America are gonna keep the US a covid hotspot for years.
This attitude really concerns me. The vaccine only reduces the chances of you catching Covid, and/or transmitting it to others. That is - you can still pass it on, even if vaccinated. 100% vaccination would not stop Covid from existing and continuing to mutate.
There’s no pandemic amongst the vaccinated
Don't be silly.
Take a look at Figure 2 in this report:
Case rates are higher for certain age groups, amongst the vaccinated. Yes, I am fully aware that the death rates amongst the vaccinated are significantly lower. That's fantastic - the vaccines have had a big impact on severe cases and deaths. Can we get on with our lives now??
If large numbers of NHS staff get sick or are forced to isolate because of exposure to sick people then the system breaks.
A close relative works in the NHS. I'm told that staff (at least at this particular site) systematically avoid being tested, because they fear the consequences on their colleagues and patients of being told to isolate for 10 days.
Out of interest, are you implying that a vaccinated person who has been exposed to a Covid case should not need to isolate?
Essentially in this sample only about 5% of C19 admissions are double vaccinated and 2% of the seriously ill and they tend to be very old.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00558-2/fulltext
/blockquote>That's not quite what the paper said, and it's critical to be accurate with this kind of information. 5% of people who tested positive for C19 when being admitted were unvaccinated. This is explained quite clearly later in the paper, when they explain why they found nearly 50% of measured C19 cases at the point of admission were asymptomatic:
...admitted to hospital for a non-COVID-19-related diagnosis but with an incidental positive PCR test for SARS-CoV-2
That's an interesting nugget of information in itself - nearly 50% of PCR confirmed C19 cases (at the point of admission to hospital) amongst the vaccinated were asymptomatic!
Table 3 in this report gives better data for this topic:
For example, C19 hospitalisations amongst the 30-39 age group were 3 in 100,000 for the double vaccinated, and 13 in 100,000 for the unvaccinated.
Actually, not today
A close relative works in the NHS. I’m told that staff (at least at this particular site) systematically avoid being tested, because they fear the consequences on their colleagues and patients of being told to isolate for 10 days.
I work for the NHS one of my roles is manning the Covid desk for staff. I can tell you that’s not going to happen, unless staff have broken the PPE and socially distance regulations.
Out of interest, are you implying that a vaccinated person who has been exposed to a Covid case should not need to isolate?
I’m not implying it! That’s the government rules (I don’t think it’s a Scotland only thing!)
1. Get a ping as a close contact. Get a PCR test
2. If PCR test is negative you must still isolate unless you are:
- double vaxxed OR
- participating in an official gov trial OR
- under 18
That’s off the top of my head and paraphrased so check the actual words (there may be other examples).
(Oh, but whilst I think it’s possible the post you referred to is correct - people say they are not testing to protect colleagues from workload that is both stupid and them lying, possibly even to themselves, if they are worried about the isolation it’s not the workload on colleagues it’s the 10 days effectively in home prison).
I work for the NHS one of my roles is manning the Covid desk for staff. I can tell you that’s not going to happen, unless staff have broken the PPE and socially distance regulations.
Drac - a workplace contact for nhs staff won’t count as a reason to isolate IF they were wearing PPE etc, although presumably does between colleagues in the mess room or same vehicle just as it would between my non NHS staff?
However household contacts, people you met down the pub etc are all proper contacts and do require you to isolate/test regardless of profession.
