So boris and England plc, have decided to make it compulsory for all care home staff by Thursday to be double jabbed and all NHs staff to be double jabbed by spring, or to lose their jobs.
Question why dont they want to be jabbed,
and if they get sacked, who will do their jobs.
I’m guessing the care home staff who aren’t vaccinated now after the horror of the past 18 months in those settings are subscribers to the Cult of Ignorance that is the anti-vax movement so good riddance to them. Who wants their vulnerable relatives cared for by someone who can’t even make that small concession?
Frontline NHS staff should also know better. The time for making allowances for those who cling to boneheaded destructive beliefs is over.
I get why and I'm ardently pro-vacc but don't think it should be mandatory for anyone unless they are working directly with clinically vulnerable people. Also begs the question what about other vaccinations, should they have all of them as well. Biden has tried something similar in the States, been overturned at court of appeal.
Hmm. Whilst I think this might be a good thing in principle, staff in such positions should be protected themselves from the virus and be less of a risk to others, it's about enforcing it in a legal sense. I can't see this working because surely individuals have a right to refuse medical procedures, and the right to have their 'beliefs'* etc respected, so wouldn't there need to be a fundamental change in law to make such a thing happen? Potential legal minefield, with the probability of massive lawsuits against employers etc. I'm not aware of any current law that states someone must have a certain vaccination in order to do any job.
*I think the greater safety and well being of society must trump any individual opinions or 'beliefs', but I don't think a totalitarian approach is necessarily the right approach. Certainly not with this current government.
So boris and England plc, have decided to make it compulsory for all care home staff by Thursday to be double jabbed and all NHs staff to be double jabbed by spring, or to lose their jobs.
Do you have an issue with this ?? What’s your point ?
Most front line staff have vaccines for plenty of other things.
No vaccine no job - simple really
Other vaccinations are already mandatory for NHS staff.
I'm pro vaccine but I'm also pro choice. I question the choice of those who decide not to, but that isn't as concerning as a government who think it's okay to mandate such things. Where is the line?
I'd not want treated by someone who'd not been vaccinated - why should a patient seeking potentially acute care (and with no other options where to get that care) be put at greater potential risk?
I'm in agreement with the policy, but also want it extended to all MP's and senior NHS & Carehome Managers (to take the them/us out of the 'equation').
My Mrs doesn't want it, she is part of government/nhs study to test antibody lifetimes
She is pcr tested every 2 weeks and tested for antibodies every 4, so she has cover and is safe the vaccine is not without risks and all it does is provide antibodies, that she already has (as do I 19 months after infection)
Most front line staff have vaccines for plenty of other things.
Yes - and they are no compulsory
the vaccinations that healthcare workers are given extra are to protect the worker or empklyer I refused most of them and had to sign a waiver
The conronavirus vaccination is to protect the patients. I got mine instantly
the two really are not parallel situations
Guess nhs staff aren’t leaving quick enough!! This will really help
Other vaccinations are already mandatory for NHS staff.
Nope - they are not. I know 'cos I refused some
Other vaccinations are already mandatory for NHS staff.
Which vaccines would those be?
don’t think it should be mandatory for anyone unless they are working directly with clinically vulnerable people.
Like people in care homes, (old) or hospital (sick/low immune system) for example! 😁
but also want it extended to all MP’s and senior NHS & Carehome Managers (to take the them/us out of the ‘equation’).
That's fair. In general I think that people should have the choice to have it or not, but if you choose not too, society should also be free to choose to exclude you from situations where you are putting other at risk. Hospital and care home jobs, certainly but I'd be happy that unvaccinated people aren't let into social venues, aeroplanes, hotels etc. too.
It's an interesting one. I can understand the NHS protecting themselves and their services as much as possible, by trying to ensure that they minimise staff sickness. Plus the fallout and newsworthiness if an unvaccinated member of staff infects a patient with Covid and they die.
I'm also pro-choice, even though I think having the vaccine is a no brainer. So I guess if staff feel that strongly they can leave the NHS. I don't expect the government to think their way out of a wet paper bag. But I expect some people at the NHS have done the maths and calculated they'll lose less staff leaving due to not having a vaccine than they will via not enforcing it and illness. Plus the bad news story implications.
Expect to see more of these then:
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Saw this in the gents toilets in the Cornwall Services.
I can’t see this working because surely individuals have a right to refuse medical procedures, and the right to have their ‘beliefs’* etc respected, so wouldn’t there need to be a fundamental change in law to make such a thing happen? Potential legal minefield, with the probability of massive lawsuits against employers etc.
That's my thoughts too, persuing this policy without the legal backing behind it just opens up the gates to a massive wave of claims for wrongful dismissal. So yet another government policy that hasn't been thought through properly and ripe for another U-turn.
plus-one
Free Member
Guess nhs staff aren’t leaving quick enough!! This will really help
Yep thought of that an easy way to reduce staffing levels, and recruit new staff part time, , then sell on or privatise parts more easily.
I’m pro vaccine but I’m also pro choice.
You choose not to have the vaccine.
I choose not to employ plague rats.
In't choice brilliant! Fantastic!!
I have no sympathy for contrarian people who refuse vaccines, and I wouldn't want my Mum/granny treated by them, in the same way I much prefer it when doctors wash their hands.
The other issue, of course, is that of signalling. It's no good having doctors and nurses (& others) in a position of trust being anti-vaccine and advertising that to vulnerable patients.
Which vaccines would those be?
E.g. Hepatitis B. I don't know how mandatory they are if someone wanted to actually kick up a fuss ("muh rights") but since I'm not a moron I just had it.
My wife cannot work without hep b ect. But she is working in private health at the moment.
Seem common sense to me tbh.
Is swine flu vac not mandatory for NHS?
I’m pro vaccine but I’m also pro choice.
So am I. You'll note that no-one is being compelled to have the vaccine, rather, it's a condition of employment for working in certain places.
E.g. Hepatitis B. I don’t know how mandatory they are if someone wanted to actually kick up a fuss (“muh rights”)
Not compulsory. I refused it ( not working with high risk patients, not high risk myself, its value is to protect the staff member not the patient, I had previous nasty reactions to similar vaccines)
Is swine flu vac not mandatory for NHS?
Nope - not even offered to me
There are no compulsory vaccinations in the NHS
Superficial
I have no sympathy for contrarian people who refuse vaccines, and I wouldn’t want my Mum/granny treated by them, in the same way I much prefer it when doctors wash their hands.
My wife without vaccine is arguably safer to be treated by than someone who's had the vaccine.
Not everyone who has the vaccine develops antibodies, the vaccine efficiency appears to fade, no one is getting tested after vaccine to see if they are covered still, you can still catch and pass on covid even with the vaccine
Vs my wife DEFINITELY has antibodies and tested for them monthly and is PCR tested every 2 weeks and DEFINITELY isn't carrying covid
I know who I'd rather be treated by, far too much crap being spouted by people who only have limited facts in this whole situation, a one size fits all approach is not appropriate
My wife without vaccine is arguably safer to be treated by than someone who’s had the vaccine.
Not everyone who has the vaccine develops antibodies, the vaccine efficiency appears to fade, no one is getting tested after vaccine to see if they are covered still, you can still catch and pass on covid even with the vaccine
Vs my wife DEFINITELY has antibodies and tested for them monthly and is PCR tested every 2 weeks and DEFINITELY isn’t carrying covid
I know who I’d rather be treated by, far too much crap being spouted by people who only have limited facts in this whole situation, a one size fits all approach is not appropriate
I don't know if there is missing grammar in that, but it currently does not make sense.
@tjagain - My wife (nurse) seems to think surgeons have to have a hepatitis vaccination and have done for many years.
My cousin (also a nurse) is an ardent anti-vaxer and says she will quit her job if they are made mandatory (but she is a bit bat shit mental).
my wife and most of her colleagues are already fully vaccinated and jumped at the opportunity for their early vaccines (and have just had their boosters)
Convert this is about vaccines not my English language skills but cheers for that, its also pretty bloody obvious what I'm saying, ps it was in response to superficial if that makes it any less of issue for you
Eskay out of interest did any of those who got booster jabs get tested for antibodies before it or did they just get given it regardless
eskay - your wife is wrong on that I am pretty sure
Surgeons will be at much higher risk of passing hep on than a nurse working with the elderly. Cut their finger while the patient is open and bingo - blood borne disease
I had my covid vaccine as soon as I could - thats to protect the patients. I had all needed vaccinations but not the ones that were there to protect the staff - ie hep- because the risk to me were so low
The vaccine isn't COVID proofing, it just reduces the risk of hospitalisation. So staff will still be able/likely to transmit the disease, whether or not they're vaccinated. Could be another piece in "the preparing NHS for privatisation" plan from the government.
Firestarter
But is that scalable?
Generalist, id have hoped it would be cheaper to test for antibodies than it would be to push through mandatory jabs, it would also mean boosters were only given when needed
As I say me and the mrs have antibodies after 19 months so who's to say we'll ever need a jab at all, surely jabbing who needs jabbing rather than trying to force it on everyone every 6 months is more cost effective and less wasteful
@tjagain - Having had a quick look online it seems that hep vaccinations are not mandatory but some trust's H&S policies may demand it (I guess it could still be refused but not sure how that works within individual trusts).
@firestarter - They were just given the booster as a matter of course (no anti-body testing).
firestarter - I would be surprised if there are not exemptions for people participating in studies like your wife (I may be wrong, and knowing this gov - they will do it as an afterthought - but there are certain exemptions for self isolating for people like her the same as for people with double vax)
I'm surprised they've felt it necessary to do this - what's the uptake level in NHS? and in care home staff? Surely the former is well into the 90's? I know the latter may be more hesitant - but we're ~ 12 months on and very few people have had bad side effects - so I wonder how easy we've made it for them - I did hear a story that whilst we brought the vaccine to the residents we expected the staff to travel to be vaccinated, minimum (or near minimum) wage staff working long hours, often without their own transport being asked to travel to central facilities at their own expense and in their own time. Contrast with hospital staff who were being sent direct from the ward on paid time. All anecdote but it may not be as simple as not wanting it - but rather having other priorities.
My cousin (also a nurse) is an ardent anti-vaxer
I don't get this. Don't nurses have a basic understanding of medical history and the unbelievable efficacy of vaccinations across time?
I mean its undeniable. Its like working for NASA and being a flat earther
Could be another piece in “the preparing NHS for privatisation” plan from the government.
In what style would sir want his tin foil hat?
I would suspect the current covid associated absence rates are part of the metrics for the decision. As is the optics of medics without jabs in an NHS where jabs are increasingly thrust upon the public.
The reality is that there isn't a good option here other than 100% voluntary take up by those not exempt for some reason. However unions/ professional bodies seem keener to just moan about the decisions of others in the media than use their time on the airwaves for encouraging voluntary take up
@tjagain – Having had a quick look online it seems that hep vaccinations are not mandatory but some trust’s H&S policies may demand it (I guess it could still be refused but not sure how that works within individual trusts).
No H&S policy can demand it. Its a basic legal principle
If refused and in high risk areas like surgeons then the answer is testing for hep status. I cannot imagine a surgeon refusing tho and if I had worked in a high risk area I would have had it
In general making vaccination a condition of employment in care homes and the NHS (and any other private health provider dealing with vulnerable people) seems like a very sensible thing. The rights of the patients/vulnerable to minimise their risk trump the rights of an antivaxxer to work where there like in my opinion.
A very sensible point made above I hadn't thought of - clearly they will lose staff because of this (though from anecdotal info, not surprisingly, the level of education and professional skillset of the employees that are not vaccinated is skewed significantly towards the bottom range) but if they have less missing staff from the isolating/recovering that could be mitigated to some extent.
Convert this is about vaccines not my English language skills but cheers for that, its also pretty bloody obvious what I’m saying, ps it was in response to superficial if that makes it any less of issue for you
Sorry, really isn't.
and
As I say me and the mrs have antibodies after 19 months so who’s to say we’ll ever need a jab at all, surely jabbing who needs jabbing rather than trying to force it on everyone every 6 months is more cost effective and less wasteful
You've really not thought that through.
I’m surprised they’ve felt it necessary to do this – what’s the uptake level in NHS? and in care home staff?
Wife works in recruitment for a large Scottish care provider. Current the care home rule is not live there. There are homes in their firm where the percentage of fully vaccinated is only nudging just above 50%. The main 'offenders' looking statistically across their 1900 employees are people in the lowest paid roles working in the homes located in the poorest areas. All were repeatedly offered the vaccine on site in work time (ie when on shift inc night shift workers). Some firms (but not hers) in Scotland are looking at the legals of enforcing in their t&cs if the Scottish government don't follow the English.
To counter that the vacancy rates in the care sector are at a historical all time high which is why I guess they have tolerated it so far.
I cannot see this working out or being enforceable.
Yet again, the NHS becomes an even less attractive organisation to work for.
You’ve really not thought that through
Whys that then
Generalist, id have hoped it would be cheaper to test for antibodies than it would be to push through mandatory jabs, it would also mean boosters were only given when needed
As I say me and the mrs have antibodies after 19 months so who’s to say we’ll ever need a jab at all, surely jabbing who needs jabbing rather than trying to force it on everyone every 6 months is more cost effective and less wasteful
@firestarter - nobody knows yet what level of antibodies is required to confer immunity - your wife is generously being a guinea pig to find that out. Until then it could be a big mistake to say "well we can detect antibodies so don't boost". Then there is the fact that in the total cost of vaccination the dose of the vaccine is relatively cheap, the logistics probably cost as must as the liquid that goes in your arm. Now to test everyone we need to put in place a whole new lot of logistics that gets blood samples from people - sends them to a lab, and gets the results back to the right people to invite you for a booster. Add in that people are generally more squeamish about getting blood taken (and depending on the sample type required the training may be longer) that an intramuscular injection and I think its actually both cheaper and probably more effective to boost everyone. Long term - I'm sure the plan is not to just keep boosting everyone, every 6 months for life - there will be a point when either we have the data to know if you need it, and a simple enough home test for antibodies set at that cut off or we will have data that says 3 or 4 doses will last you X years, or 2 doses and natural exposure will be fine for those who don't normally get flu vaccine etc.
Whys that then
logistics 101 - or if you need walking through the thought process Poly has put most of it down.
But its a totally bobbins idea at this stage.
Yet again, the NHS becomes an even less attractive organisation to work for.
I suppose it depends on your perspective? Im not convinced they should be making it mandatory BUT if I worked for NHS and wanted (a) to minimise the excess workload on me from colleague being off sick or self isolating with an avoidable condition (b) to minimise the risk to me from my colleague (c) to minimise the risk to my patients, I might actually see it as a positive thing that this helps me.
I suspect if you are bitterly opposed to the vaccine, NHS might not be somewhere you are that happy working anyway.
Some firms (but not hers) in Scotland are looking at the legals of enforcing in their t&cs if the Scottish government don’t follow the English.
I'd love to take that on as a union man
retrospective changes to employment contracts need the employees agreement
Sacking someone for refusing a vaccination when the requirement only came into being after they were employed would be automatically unfair dismissal
All medical treatment needs consent and consent under duress ( ie consent or lose your job) does not count as consent so anyone administering it under these circumstances could be in trouble and would be wise to refuse
All frontline NHS to be double jabbed to keep a job
Good, stop pandering to the ignorant.
I cant see it would be enforceable, but I can see the staff who refused would be transferred to another dept / role which is shit, and basically forced to leave or put up with it.
Plenty of batshit tin foilers in the NHS.
You’ll note that no-one is being compelled to have the vaccine, rather, it’s a condition of employment for working in certain places.
I don't wanna say "end of thread", but y'know.
Yet again, the NHS becomes an even less attractive organisation to work for.
My suspicion is that many NHS workers will be glad to see the back of any anti-vax dickhead colleagues, whatever they might say about personal choice in public.
Poly-convert there are already over 10k staff on the trials at the moment as soon as they are vaccinated this trial goes out the window. Also I'm tested monthly by the government it doesn't appear to be that much of an issue , I send it in 48hrs later I have the results
My suspicion is that many NHS workers will be glad to see the back of any anti-vax dickhead colleagues, whatever they might say about personal choice in public.
Probably right - but also right thinking healthcare staff also believe in such things as ethics, consent, bodily autonomy and so on
If all healthcare workers how about all hospitality workers? How about police? all at risk of spreading it at a similar rate
this seems to me to be very much one of those cases where its OK to force in defiance of centuries of law to one group of workers but not to others - with no logic behind it
Vs my wife DEFINITELY has antibodies and tested for them monthly and is PCR tested every 2 weeks and DEFINITELY isn’t carrying covid
You don't know that, at all. As above, it sounds like your wife is helping with an important research question (which, by definition, means we don't know what effect having the antibodies has), but you're leaping to conclusions.
Your particular situation is very rare, though, so it's hardly relevant to the wider discussion, whereas your unfounded vaccine skepticism is unfortunately widespread. Make no mistake, there's an information war going on in this country and people are preying on the encourageable and easily lead.
what’s the uptake level in NHS? and in care home staff? Surely the former is well into the 90’s?
I saw some stat for this recently. For acute trusts in England, the score for each trust was between 79 and 94% IIRC.
far too much crap being spouted by people who only have limited facts in this whole situation
Quite.
Not sure if its been mentioned yet but if i were involved i would make sure this covered all of the trainees currently working towards their qualifications. Imagine all those student nurses coming to the end of their training and then deciding they dont want the vacs.
TBH i see the NHS staff calling the governments bluff on this just like the carehome staff. I cant see them being able to force people to Vaccinate but if they do go ahead with it, they need to make sure future nurses are on the same page too
You cannot force vaccinations - it goes against centuries of law and ethics. It could be made a requirement of having the job but cannot be made retrospective
In terms of staff shortages I expect overseas recruitment to increase. Its all my wife seems to talk about these days.
What this does to the nursing situation in the countries we are recruiting from I have no idea but can't believe it helps!
What this does to the nursing situation in the countries we are recruiting from I have no idea but can’t believe it helps!
recruiting from non eu countries is a disaster
One of the carribean islands had to close its only ITU because the majority of its staff were poached for the NHS
Big surplus of Spanish and Polish nurses but of course brexit!
Poly-convert there are already over 10k staff on the trials at the moment as soon as they are vaccinated this trial goes out the window.
@firestarter - absolutely which as I said earlier is why there will almost certainly be an exemption for people on certain sanctioned trials (at least until the end of the trial)
Also I’m tested monthly by the government it doesn’t appear to be that much of an issue, I send it in 48hrs later I have the results
But:
1. You presumably volunteered for the trial so have a higher than typical level of motivation to actually keep going.
2. Presumably you knew what was required before you signed up? So you signed up because you weren't excessively scared of needles / taking own blood or whatever the study requires?
3. Do you know what the compliance rate is for people actually collecting and sending back samples? My guess is they'll be delighted if 60-70% of people report enough to get them useful data - even in your study there will be a small % who do something wrong with the samples and need contacts / follow up. With the general public that % would be bigger but even if it was just 1% of the adult population who do something wrong in registering for or submitting a sample that's 500K phone calls sort it out.
4. Do you know what that study is costing? to generate 10000 data points a month? why did they stop at 10K (or whatever the number is? I bet they had more volunteers - but did they have the lab capacity? I'd bet its keeping a lab occupied full time just processing those samples - where would they get the equipment or people to run another say 1000 of those labs to test everyone over 3 or 4 months.
5. The AZ vaccine is <$6 per dose as I understand it. Pfizer is <$20. How much does a blood test cost? Probably more than AZ - and if its a self collected sample that gets posted to you and posted back you are probably not far off Pfizer costs!
That's all before you pay for the booking systems, advertising campaign to explain to the thick-as-mince public, etc. OR we could just give everyone a booster, which the data seems to suggest is probably a really good idea anyway and likely to be needed for many people even if you did do antibody tests and knew how to interpret the results.
Sacking someone for refusing a vaccination when the requirement only came into being after they were employed would be automatically unfair dismissal
There's an easy way to solve that, change the law.
And as the Govt is the employer, and they've an 80 seat majority, they can pretty much enact any law they fancy.
Vs my wife DEFINITELY has antibodies and tested for them monthly and is PCR tested every 2 weeks and DEFINITELY isn’t carrying covid
Then all you DEFINITELY know is that she wasn't "carrying covid" two weeks ago, an infection with an asymptomatic gestation of about two weeks. Regardless of how many RANDOM CAPITALS you choose to use.
Also, one does not "carry covid." Covid19 is a disease resulting from a virus, specifically SARS-Coronavirus-2. If you don't know the difference then you probably shouldn't be lording it on the Internet.
Lives are at stake. Normality is at stake. If you / she isn't vaccinated, for the love of Pete stop thinking you're special and sort it out.
Sacking someone for refusing a vaccination when the requirement only came into being after they were employed would be automatically unfair dismissal
Only an employment tribunal can actually determine that. I think there's a chance (but not a certainty) that an ET would agree with you, but I think there's also a possibility that with a well-constructed process an ET could agree that it was a fair and reasonable health and safety policy for other staff and service users, especially if the steps are not immediate dismissal but alternative work etc first.
From a GP practice perspective we're regulated under the CQC (here reg. 12 applies) and there are some immunizations that we must demonstrate that ALL our staff have. (they are mostly the routine vaccinations that you'd receive through childhood MMR dip, polio, tetanus) however if you regularly take blood, deal with sharps, or are at risk from pts (being bitten etc) then they MUST have HepB, BCG, varicella as well.
Must in most regulatory language is a requirement rather than advisory, and we act accordingly.
I'd expect most staff would be already vaccinated against COVID and I'd suspect that you'd be moved from any position that would make you or others vulnerable if you choose not to have it before sacking. I know of just one person (a med sec) that's refused.
Cougar yes I do know all that it seemed a simple way to put it as for lording it over the net that'd your job isn't it, plum
Alternative work is fine but as an ex union man i would love fighting that because its such an obvious case if its get vaccinated or be sacked
There’s an easy way to solve that, change the law.
Not as easy as that - you have medical ethics to deal with, compulsory vaccination is against the human rights stuff. all sorts of shizzle. No healthcare worker should give a vaccination when the person being vaccinated is under duress. basic healthcare stuff
this seems obvious on the surface but then you look into it or know a bit more then actually its a legal and ethical minefield
Should all hospitality workers and shop workers be compulsory vaccinated? How about transport staff? Police?
All fair points poly, I am in fact booked in for my jab in a couple of weeks and my 2nd is booked for Feb but it doesn't make it right what the government are doing at all
nickc - I suggest you look at that a bit more because that goes very much against medical ethics - my guess is vaccinated OR alternative arrangements which is what I did to avoid the hep and rubella vaccines ( In my case alternative arrangements were simply to sign a waiver absolving the NHS from responsibility if i got anything)
I think its important to separate the vaccinations to protect the worker - Hep and those to protect the patient - covid
Edit - I would have had Hep and Rubella if I worked in a gps surgery. Be daft not to
Should all hospitality workers and shop workers be compulsory vaccinated? How about transport staff? Police?
Can those of you that are so keen to forcibly vaccinate healthcare staff against all law and ethics please answer this
As ever with Covid other countries have already done a lot of this and we're just catching up, obviously our legalities and contracts aren't the same as other countries but most of the other issues are.
Big headlines are re staff loss, and who you actually lose. Surveys have found that as many as 72% of unvaccinated staff say they will quit if a mandate is brought in. Reality shows that even in very anti-vax industries and divided countries, it's almost never over 5%. That's 5% of unvaccinated staff, not 5% total.
When New South Wales health department introduced their mandate, 7% of staff were unvaccinated and those opposing the ban all said that it'd be a disaster. .1% quit. The BBC reported that "thousands of Chicago police officers may not turn up for work", so far it's 21.
Yes the NHS has major staff issues, possibly more so than a lot of the organisations I mention above, but this will be a drop in the bucket. And if we're going to act on staff levels this isn't the thing that you'd act on, it'd be staff safety, quality of working life, not having government actively try and kill you, not having health secretaries attack the service you provide and blame you for their failures. Work on a huge scale's desperately needed to fix the NHS demographic timebomb, it's not happening, and very few of the people who'll loudly say that vaccines will drive too many people out of the NHS are saying anything about that.
And of course, vaccines aren't the only thing that take people out of the job. 21 Chicago police officers quit, more than that have died of covid. If the NHS follows the typical track the cost of resignations in FTEs will probably be less than the cost of the disease.
The other thing is who quits. If my doctor is an anti-vaxxer I don't want him as my doctor, no more than I want a doctor who believes in the healing power of crystals or that antidepressants are all a big con by Big Pharma. If it's about personal choice then I do feel a bit different but mostly this isn't "I think the vaccine is fine but I shouldn't be forced to have it", because at this point people who haven't had the vaccine mostly don't believe it's fine.
(the correlation between people quitting over vaccine mandates and people with existing bad records is astonishing- in some US police forces over half of all people quitting because of the vaccine had a prior record of violence against the public. If you've got a record of turning off your body camera, chances are you're anti-vax)
Of course none of this touches on the morality of compulsion at all, or the legality in the UK. Above my pay grade, those two 🙂
nickc – I suggest you look at that a bit more because that goes very much against medical ethics
That's pretty much verbatim from the "mythbuster" page of the CQC site. When they inspect us part of that is an HR check and they would expect to see evidence of immunisations, I don't really care overmuch about the ethics of it all, I know that I'd be rated down for not having that information.
REG 12 CQC all practice must ensure that their staff are appropriately vaccinated
I find it a little strange that such regulations are being considered, (and so late in the game, too. Next spring is a lifetime away, when you consider all that could happen between now and then), while news outlets are simultaneously publishing articles with the idea that the unvaccinated cannot rely on a herd-like protection effect that might come from so many being vaccinated against Covid (and thus should go and get jabbed to protect themselves).
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59077036
It also does not play well with the very high numbers of asymptomatic cases. Surely a vaccinated person has a higher chance of being asymptomatic if they do still catch Covid, and thus spread it without knowing it?
I do wonder if there's politics involved in that timing. This winter could be very, very bad for the NHS and I'm sure Sajid Javid would be very happy to have stories about NHS staff refusing vaccines, threatening legal action or quitting the profession in protest to shift blame and distract attention.
Personally- I am not in the medical profession- I think mandatory vaccines is a good thing. But just because my uninformed kneejerk opinion is in favour doesn't mean I don't think the government may be doing it for **** reasons.
Interesting seeing the debate on here.
Personally, my view is that unless there is a medical reason not to have the vaccine (including being involved in trials) then only a fool wouldn't have it, and I don’t want fools in a position of caring for me and my loved ones. And I'll extend that view to the wider population.
Whether it's acceptable to then force people in a desperately understaffed area of care out of their jobs, I'm not sure how I feel.
I've had all the recommended jabs to get me to 52 years of age, and my kids have had all their recommended jabs. Despite my daughter having a rough week after her Covid jab, including a trip to be checked out, I'll continue to trust the judgement of competent health experts who say the jabs are safe enough over, well, anyone else.
Talking to my customers, the main resistance is apparently that the majority of NHS staff understand the argument that the vaccine is still in trial phase until 2023 and with that brings a degree of unknown risk that they don't feel prepared to take.
YOu'd think though that they would see the benefits or the potential consequences of not, but for whatever reason people seem to be for it or against it. If ever i try and discuss this it ALWAYS gets heated for some reason...a very tetchy subject.
Speaking as an uninformed husband of an (often Covid designated) ward manager, and hearing her stories of the countless people she speaks to...I would love to see how anyone could arrive at this:
that the majority of NHS staff understand the argument that the vaccine is still in trial phase until 2023
Where is the line?
Clearly drawn and signposted along the lines of "Don't **** over more vulnerable members of society".
Can those of you that are so keen to forcibly vaccinate healthcare staff against all law and ethics please answer this
As someone who's had to get vaccinated in the past to be able to work in certain countries, I've no problem with that either.
That’s pretty much verbatim from the “mythbuster” page of the CQC site. When they inspect us part of that is an HR check and they would expect to see evidence of immunisations, I don’t really care overmuch about the ethics of it all, I know that I’d be rated down for not having that information.
REG 12 CQC all practice must ensure that their staff are appropriately vaccinated
That seems to suggest that employers must have a vaccination program in place, and logs, and risk assessments. According to the linked article, individuals should be vaccinated. It doesn't say what happens when /if they refuse.
Surely a vaccinated person has a higher chance of being asymptomatic if they do still catch Covid, and thus spread it without knowing it?
Possibly, I'm not sure if that's been shown. But what has been shown is that viral loads and transmissibility are lower among the vaccinated. So the two factors might well balance. I certainly wouldn't assume I knew the answer to your question (one way or another) without some evidence to back it up. That notwithstanding, a lot of employers are doing biweekly LFTs to help identify those asymptomatic people anyway.
the correlation between people quitting over vaccine mandates and people with existing bad records is astonishing
This is an interesting point too. At a guess I suspect unvaccinated staff are more likely to need time off. With a vaccine mandate, they won't be losing the best / brightest staff 🙂
EDIT:
that the majority of NHS staff understand the argument that the vaccine is still in trial phase until 2023
I work in the NHS and I don't know a single person that has voiced that concern. Worryingly your post uses that awful Trump tactic that seems to be quite effective in order to give credence to their lies. "A lot of people are saying <something that no one is saying>." It makes my skin crawl.
I don’t get this. Don’t nurses have a basic understanding of medical history and the unbelievable efficacy of vaccinations across time?
I mean its undeniable. Its like working for NASA and being a flat earther
It's not as clear cut as that.
RNs will have more than just a 'basic' understanding of vaccines and their history etc. That might also be the problem. One of my Wife's colleagues for example, doesn't have a flu vaccine every year. When it comes to Covid, She's had both jabs and her booster, but she thinks that if she'd already had Covid, then she probably wouldn't had the vaccine. It's her belief that contracting, and recovering from Covid offers the same benefits of the vaccine, without the tiny risks. It's a view shared by the F1 Medical car drivers, who recently got into trouble because, having both contracted Covid, didn't have the vaccine, because in their home country, it's not policy.
Also, whilst most of us have forgotten about it, back in 2009 another vaccine was given to NHS Staff to try to prevent a serious Pandemic, Swine Flu. Pandemrix wasn't given the same, fast, but thorough as the Covid vaccines, but NHS staff were put under a lot of pressure to have it, to the point when Nurses and Doctors were lined up in corridors and told they had to. In the US it was Anthony Fauci, the US voice of Covid common sense who championed Pandemrix.
Unfortunately, Pandemrix caused narcolepsy in a tiny number of people, this wasn't picked up in trials, because there really wasn't any.
It's whole different thing to the Covid vaccine, but most Medics who've been around since 2009 remember it, even if the public have forgotten.
It doesn’t say what happens when /if they refuse.
In my practice they wouldn't last out their probationary period. Regs 18 (staffing) and 19 (fit and proper persons) apply here, which is to with employing suitable people for the role. If the regulations say we should be able to demonstrate that we're employing people who can show that they're fit to do the role, then the counter to that is an obvious one.
As most folks are employed before the COVID vaccine existed, I'd expect clinicians to take the advice of their appropriate regulatory body, or have a compellingly good reason why not. Pregnancy was the only one I can think of, but the advice has changed recently. And for admin and reception staff I'd make some adjustments according to their role. For staff who don't interact with patients, I don't think I'd necessarily sack them straight away for not being vaccinated from COVID, as I can isolate them in my practice and/or make them work from home.
But what has been shown is that viral loads and transmissibility are lower among the vaccinated.
Not according to a recent Oxford / ONS study, which focussed on how the Delta variant affects things:
With Delta, infections occurring following two vaccinations had similar
peak viral burden to those in unvaccinated individuals
Genuine Question for you all. Would you rather be treated by a highly skilled, highly dedicated, highly experienced nurse who is unvaccinated but has Covid antibodies in their system, and therefore no different to a vaccinated nurse, or a fully vaccinated but green as hell nurse straight out of training? Which would you prefer to see treating your family members?
