[Closed] Alistair Carmichael, catspaw or lying toad.

Seriously who cares, politician lied a bit big deal. Let his constituency decide at the next election if they want to keep him. Even if he stood down and the SNP won another seat it would change little in the grand scheme of things.

The only sad thing is the wipe out of a party that challenged the big 2 on proper liberal issues, which has been replaced by a Me, Me, Me party that is authoritarian despite the claims of being progressive.

JY, thanks for posting the letter but I heard at the weekend a quote attributed to him that said he was 100% certain he had recorded the conversation correctly. It is absolutely in the SNPs interest to have a Tory government as that furthers their agenda. They don't care about short term or even long term pain for Scotland if they can get what they want.

EDIT: JY the letter doesn't say she didn't make the comment, it says the "details" where not correct, that's vague wishy-washy nonsense. Typical politicians response.

And we all no how departed from reality that is.

As an aside I need to dig out the Man U thread as I bet @binners (?) £10 they wouldn't finish in top 4, more painfully I have to concede a victory to JY as we have a similar for honour bet.

I heard at the weekend a quote attributed to him

How was this quote recorded? Was it translated into Albanian, written on a beer mat, and then leaked to the Telegraph? 😉

You're just doing a slightly more sophisticated version of "it stands to reason", "I heard from a bloke in the pub", and the old favourite "well, they would say that wouldn't they".

MSP don't you find it interesting that on all the major issues debated here like the Scottish Referendum, the General Election and the various Middle East threads that I have been on the side of the argument which has turned out to be the correct/winning one ?

Should you not just tell us that "The truth is out there sweaties"(copyright THM)Bearing in mind some of the pish you and Ninfan spouted on the indy thread...annexing Faslane anybody? I would take issue with that statement. Your hatred of the SNP is kind of getting you lumped with the right wing JHJ mentioned above.

What the person wrote down is 100 % accurate - they did say what was reported
However what they said was not true
Why am i Having to explain this? Its basic stuff

MSP don't you find it interesting that on all the major issues debated here like the Scottish Referendum, the General Election and the various Middle East threads that I have been on the side of the argument which has turned out to be the correct/winning one ?

I have reported this accurately. This has not made this statement true. It really is basic stuff this. Hearsay that the person raises doubts about that is denied by the people present cannot ever be considered true unless its you or JHJ.

The internet often throws up these examples where you just cannot decide if the post is a satirical gem of Chris Morris/ Brass eye bad aids genius or if the poster is just wallowing in self delusion.
This is what he JHJ says when what he is talking is utter bobins and his views are irrational and at odd with the facts.
Anyone can always be right all you have to do is ignore facts and ignore the fact everyone else is disagreeing with you and just keep pretending you get things right

And now the good Sir Malcolm says it's ok because all politicians tell lies. Would he have said that before he retired? (edit) That's essentially the former Boss Liberal admitting the lie.

They'll have to do something to regain trust before the Hollywood elections.

Seriously who cares, politician lied a bit big deal.

Call me naive*, but I do not believe all politicians set out to tell lies, Tony Blair excluded. Sure, some are economical with the truth, suggest things otherwise, spin negatives into positives but tell outright lies, no.

This is different. He could have suggested this at hustings and on the doorsteps, and his constituents could have weighed it up, but to hold back and plant untrue information and then deny it for cynical political expediency undermines the man, his office, profession and his constituents. The moment an inquiry was raised costing what £1.5 million (how can a couple of phone calls be so expensive BTW), he knew he would be found out, but calculated he would be safely re-elected and back at the trough.

He is not fit for office and has to go now. It should not be his decision to collect 67k for 5 years and his ministerial pension, and then see what his constituents regard him. I don't care who is re-elected but it won't be him and his lies rewarded.

*Hi, I'm naive...

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-people-versus-carmichael#/story

If you want to help the legal case

MSP don't you find it interesting that on all the major issues debated here like the Scottish Referendum, the General Election and the various Middle East threads that I have been on the side of the argument which has turned out to be the correct/winning one ?

I find it interesting that you believe your fantasy is reality.

Ignoring jambalya's sophistry for a minute...

1) Carmichael authourised the leaking of confidential document concerning the contents of a conversation that took place between the French ambassador and the first minister. The memo questions its own veracity in the text but Carmichael chooses to leak it anyway believing it sufficiently damaging to the SNP to warrant being leaked.

2) He then denies having any knowledge of the leak or the memo prior to reading about it in the Telegraph, this is a flat out lie

3) He then organises a public inquiry to find out the source of the leak, the inquiry cost in the region of £1.4 million pounds

4) He finally admits culpability just as the inquiry was about to report naming him as the source of the leak.

Point 1 is a dirty political tactic but slinging mud in a political campaign is nothing new, choosing to use such weak ammunition against your opponent marks him out as not a particularly savvy operator, but then he a Lib Dem so that makes sense.

Points 2 and 3 are damning though. He's lied, then he's lied about lying. Not only that he's not actually very good at lying as he's had to admit it once he's been found out. So he's not even good at being a lying shitehawk.

Now the Lib Dems have said its fine as we are all liars!

Thing is if they have any hope of any small electoral recovery ( by that I mean actually managing to get a couple of MSP through using the list system at the next Holyrood election ) then they need to kick Carmichael to the kerb as fast as they can.

As it is they will finish 5th behind the Greens

richmtb - that's all wrong - jambalaya will set you straight with the evidence from his own mind which contradicts all known facts and is therefore correct. In his mind.

he will then tell you how he is always correct on all things

Jambalaya earlier
WHO THE MAN
[img] ?w=540&h=320[/img]

"Make them accountable for lies and broken promises, and we'll get better representation."

We could not handle the truth and neither could the politicians (of all types). We all participate in the constant lie that is our system (we do it willingly). It may be the best we have but its all still built on fairy stories of growth, spend and the planet will go on and on, pay back time is getting closer and there will be a lot of pain for most of us (or your kids).

@richmtb, no doubt Carmichael has been a naughty boy and very foolish. At the very least he should have leaked the memo in a way not so directly attributable to him as the source, that's a rookie mistake. As said above politics is a very grubby business.

Kicking Carmichael to the kerb isn't going to make any electoral difference to the Lib Dems other than a negative one. The Lib Dems will do all they can to hold onto him/the seat.

jambalaya - Member

He's a hero. He has exposed the doublespeak of Nicola Sturgeon.

[img] [/img]

Kicking Carmichael to the kerb isn't going to make any electoral difference to the Lib Dems other than a negative one.

[b]Not[/b] Kicking Carmichael to the kerb isn't going to make any electoral difference to the Lib Dems other than a negative one.

There's no way the enquiry cost £1.4M by the way - that's double the cost of the enquiry into the cost of the Holyrood building, and that enquiry produced a big book at the end of it.

The £1.4M number seems to have been made up by a Labour MP.

@richmtb, no doubt Carmichael has been a naughty boy and very foolish. At the very least he should have leaked the memo in a way not so directly attributable to him as the source, that's a rookie mistake. As said above politics is a very grubby business.

Kicking Carmichael to the kerb isn't going to make any electoral difference to the Lib Dems other than a negative one. The Lib Dems will do all they can to hold onto him/the seat.

Hmm, the Lib Dems might get sent to bed with no pudding at Royal Rumble Holyrood 2016 if they don't clear this up. Tombstoning their sympathy vote...

Well according to one former senior Lib Dem [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32881672 ]telling porkies is ok 'cos everyone does it[/url]
I predict more lost deposits than MSPs next year.

According to the BBC, that funding appeal to challenge his appointment in the court of session has hit £10k, jacket / shoogly nail...

As posted above hard to imagine how you can spend £1-£1.4m on an inquiry in such a short period of time. I call b/s on that figure.

How is the cost of the inquiry relevant? He lied regardless

If it cost 10p, it's 10p of taxpayer's money he chose to waste already knowing the answer. Insisting on calling an investigation into yourself so you can be found guilty of the offence you knew you did is just the height of absurdity, [i]except[/i] when it's just before a general election and you know admitting to your dirty tricks now will probably lose you your seat. Whereas if you do it later you can just try and brazen it out.

The £1.4 million figure does seem high- I'd like to see a reliable source- but it just isn't very important.

This is from The Cabinet Office guidelines on the 2015 general election

3. During the Election period, the Government retains its responsibility to govern, and Ministers remain in charge of their Departments

mcj78 - Member
According to the BBC, that funding appeal to challenge his appointment in the court of session has hit £10k, jacket / shoogly nail...

£15,000 now. 🙂

The LibDems are mad if they support him. It will cost them any chance of a resurgence in the Scottish elections next year. Wipeout. Or maybe, like the Tories they have given up in Scotland?

As posted above hard to imagine how you can spend £1-£1.4m on an inquiry in such a short period of time. I call b/s on that figure.

So, at that appeal for funds, £20.6k at 2130: people are voting with their wallets.

Over £20,000 in less than one day. Boy, he is popular in the wrong sort of way!

It is going to stuff the LibDems in Scotland long term unless we see a resignation. Their appeal has always been as the principled party, and this little episode tops the job they did on themselves in coalition.

Lib dems sent to bed with no black pudding?

[img] [/img]

RIP LIB SCOT DEM 2016

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/scotland-office-memorandum-leak-cabinet-office-inquiry-statement

3 days and 111 posts late THM

THM is the pudding

No Gordi - merely watching the debate with interest and more than a little amusement. Dislike leaking, detest lying, deplore hypocrisy - all are evident in this case. Little credit anywhere. Sorry state of affairs but politicians seem to be one of the few parties that are free to lie without as sanction other than the ballot box.

I hope there is an application of universal principles at work here though. Doesn't look like it so far.

@gordimor - I would imagine he was referring to resigning as a Minister and not as an MP.

he did not resign as a minister he was sacked by the electorate who would have sacked him fully had they know the truth about him and his moral code.
That is the main issue here and why he lied he did it as even he knew he was unelectable without it
We do have a serious issue with politicians honesty and issues like this do not help the situation one bit. A person of principle would neither have done this nor clung to power after having been caught.
Its pretty obvious why the general populus have such low opinion of politicians when they do this. he should be dragged before an ethics committee and sacked as would most people, including a Civil servant for example, in a job had they done this.
It shames the country that he can remain in office to "serve"

epicyclo - Member
Over £20,000 in less than one day. Boy, he is popular in the wrong sort of way!

It is going to stuff the LibDems in Scotland long term unless we see a resignation. Their appeal has always been as the principled party, and this little episode tops the job they did on themselves in coalition.

It just highlights how far removed from public opinion certain politicians (parties even...) are these days - to think he could get away with that level of deception then lie about it, then lie about lying about it, then go along with an inquiry into the whole shambles & only hold his hands up after being caught rotten by that very inquiry doesn't bear thinking about... especially after alienating much of the party support (in Scotland especially) with the whole tory coalition...

£27400 😉

edit: now under police investigation [url= http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/26/police-investigate-alistair-carmichaels-false-denials-over-memo-leak ]Guardian [/url]

Does the police investigation now limit the medias' freedom to comment, or would that only be if it went to court? If yes, it might be an astute move on someone's part, though not in the electorate's interest.

The campaign needs to raise £60k as per their own page linked below.

They need to file by May 29, it's not clear if they need all the money by then - I would say not as they could file then withdraw

[url= https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-people-versus-carmichael#/story ]Indiegogo crowdfunding page[/url]

ambalaya - Member
@gordimor - I would imagine he was referring to resigning as a Minister and not as an MP.
That was my point.The Cabinet Office guidelines state that ministers are still in charge of their department during the election campaign which makes Carmichael a minister when he lied about having no knowledge of the memo till it was published.When the report came out Carmichael admitted that he was wrong and said that if he had been a minister at the time he would have considered it a cause for resigning. Yet he was a minister and he did not resign.

So there's the leak and the lying?

Which is the issue that he would resign for? Both or one of them? Or something else? Perhaps the waste of money?

Is the case that he should resign for deliberately lying and also asking a deputy to cover for him?

Given their small size, the Libs have had some proper rum buggers over the years haven't they?

Thorpe, Cyril Smith, Oaten, Huhne, Rennard, Hancock etc.

WTF is it with Michael White's moustache?

This "well, everybody lies" line really isn't helping is it?

[quote=bencooper ]WTF is it with [s]Michael White's[/s]Victor Meldrew's moustache?

David Mundell also gave a very carefully worded answer when asked what he knew about it:

[quote=scotroutes opined]bencooper  » WTF is it with [s]Michael White's[/s]Victor Meldrew's moustache?

I DONT BELIEVE IT

So the Grauniad's Ass Ed thinks it's OK to lie, because everyone does it. That's them finished for me. I'll stop accepting their freebie in Waitrose.

@ben, Mundell clearly knew the memo existed based upon his reply. I don't think that would be a surprise as the memo was pretty explosive politically even if for me and I would imagine many others its contents are no surprise at all.

You can imagine what you want as you have clearly demonstrated on this thread/issue.
the main problem is you cannot prove a word of what you have imagined as it at odds with the facts.

I think its safe to say most folk , including the person who wrote the memo and all those present, dont think its true.

If this wont convince you then nothing will

It really is JHJ type debating here.

Apparently a couple of legal bods have offered their services free of charge so it appears the legal action will be going ahead to have his appointment overturned sooner rather than later...

politicians seem to be one of the few parties that are free to lie without as sanction other than the ballot box.

^This, sadly.

There's no sanction for politicians who spout the most brazen, bare-faced lies. At the very least, they should be obliged to forfeit their generous pension, allowances and future eligibility for holding a company directorship if they've been found to have supplied wilfully false or misleading information.

Perhaps that's a good basis for an online petition?

There's no sanction for politicians who spout the most brazen, bare-faced lies.

Well actually there is, it's the same as for anyone else. The one big exception is the "parliamentary privilege" legal immunity granted to elected politicians in Parliament. But other than the protection given to politicians speaking on the floor of the House of Commons they are subjected to the same sanctions as anyone else. Several politicians have served prison sentences in recent times for lying.

I think its safe to say most folk , including the person who wrote the memo and all those present, dont think its true.

I think the chances of the election result being overturned in the courts are pretty minimal, let's see.

Several politicians have served prison sentences in recent times for lying.

But not enough. One notable politician told the biggest lie that's been told in decades and he still walks free.

Also, a number of politicians seem hell bent on covering up the sexual abuse their peers dished out to children.

I'd respond that far too many are telling lies without fear of sanction.

Given what they say about folk living in glass houses, it is ironically amusing to recall that salmond was proposing a conservatory extension to the official residence. Who would have removed the stones from his pockets?

The bare faced cheek of a guy who appears to have done the same thing about legal opinion re EU, plan B, the nature of currency and sent his deputy to cover for him is breathtaking if not unexpected.

Two rules of engagement

The ends always justifying the means
Do as I say, not as I do

Did he leak lies attributed to his opposition about those things, or just voice an opinion you don't agree with?

MSP, my position is clear. To repeat

Dislike leaking, detest lying, deplore hypocrisy - all are evident in this case

What is not clear or apparent,

I hope there is an application of universal principles at work here though.

Little or no credit anywhere in this debacle. Still, dear Nicola got what she wanted or was it other way round?

Most

think

something along those lines

eg

You start multiplying these variables together and it doesn't look anywhere near "I have no doubt" which you said earlier in the thread. Why have you decreased your previous level of certainty then jambalaya?

MSP, my position is clear.

Yes you are making up stories because you do not like Salmond, you are accusing him of lying because you disagree with his political position, you are lying and failing to hold up the ideals you are demanding.

Most think she said something along those lines

Can you please just stop saying its true when he apologised he admitted it was not true.

Well since his comments on taking (or not) legal advice on the issue of EU membership is a matter of public record we can each make our own minds up, can't we?

I will let you put the stones back in his pockets then!

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/scotland-office-memorandum-leak-cabinet-office-inquiry-statement
/p>

Cough

Things I've seen elsewhere, which I don't know much about, but am inclined to believe...

1. The business of government continues right up until they jack it in or whatever, so ministers etc are still in post. So he was still in the job when he said he wasn't. That's an extra lie, and him a solicitor.

2. There are two different writing styles in the memo as published. The first part being measured precise english as one would expect from a civil servant, the second, other and different.

I'll leave this with you.

I think you both have a point
THM is undeniably correct that AS lied about that
However MSP has a point that we are on a thread about another MP lying and all you have done is tell us how much AS/SNP lies and not commented on the MP [ if you have I missed it - have you commented on the issue we are discussing?] caught lying - you are doing this due as you are politically motivated by your contempt for AS /the SNP and you seem determined to turn any thread into a SNP / AS bashing attack.
Many of us pointed out that all politicians lie and you admit your views on AS are clouded and here we have another MP lying and yet you fail top comment except to tell us all how bad a liar AS is

Score draw as you both have a point.

Need some strepsils THM?

Can you please just stop saying its true when he apologised he admitted it was not true.

How could Carmichael reliably say it was not true? He wasn't there when it was alleged to have been said.

Saying it wasn't true is as much of a lie as saying it was true!

Why on earth would the French Consul General, in a confidential discussion with a British civil servant, suggest it had been said if it hadn't? What did he have to gain from it?

Even if you try and rely on 'lost in translation' (was there even a translator there? The French Ambassador seems fairly proficient in English, though I don't know about Sturgeons French oral skills) then there must have been some discussion along those lines.

re read this thread

IMO Carmichael tried to do a mega apology including saying he didn't think it was true (which actually is not what he said, see my earlier post) just to try and make it go away

Quite a lot of people think she said that or something very similar. Not least the person who wrote the memo.

We're into angels on the head of a pin territory here. "Quite a lot of people think" is not the strongest foundation for holding up anything to scrutiny.

Its also a straw man.

The issue is the leaking of the memo and the subsequent lies. The veracity or otherwise of the memo is largely irrelevant.

Its also not most which was what he said so he also moved the goalposts.

and confessed that she’d rather see David Cameron remain as PM (and didn’t see Ed Miliband as PM material). I have to admit that I’m not sure that the FM’s tongue would be quite so loose on that kind of thing in a meeting like that, so it might well be a case of something being lost in translation.

Only you could think that this is someone not raising any doubts about the accuracy of the comment and wholeheartedly supporting it as true. Its not really possible to take this seriously and even JHJ would not be this daft.

BRILLIANT 😆

Its hard to take you serious tbh.

Perfectly happy with my stance

Dislike leaking, detest lying, deplore hypocrisy - all are evident in this case. Little credit anywhere. Sorry state of affairs...

Completely consistent. I dislike leaking and detest lying - AC guilty as charged. No excuses. No ambiguity. He should take full responsibility.

I watched with interest and without comment (as Gordi noted) until the blatant hypocrisy of AS' position and those who chose to condone his behaviour became too much. Oh and the factual errors re what people are saying hence the link to the government website.

Thanks for your concern Gordi, but I will decline your kind offer.

Stands corrected Apologies as I missed that post.
I do agree to many folk draw up a political border and are unwilling to criticise their side when it does wrong...my party right or wrong.

FWIW I missed the AS one [ or I have forgotten it] on the EU advice...that is indefensible as well. Like a bad episode of in the thick of it.

I do think carmichael he should have to face the electorate though and allow them judge whether he is fit to represent them.

AS got brilloed on those "muddled and incomplete" answers last night, (about 32 minutes in) and had the full on head wobble going, clearly very uncomfortable at being reminded of it!

For the fun of it, this is Alex "not confirming or denying the existence of legal advice"

@ninfan which programme are you referring to, 32 mins in ?

Sorry Jamb - this week

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b05x80zm/this-week-28052015

Edit: can I correct that to footage of Alex "not confirming about specific legal advice, or even its existence" 😆

"What you can say is that everything we publish is consistent with the legal advice that we receive" - at least that bit was true 😉

This Week

EDIT: Slow, was enjoying watching Salmond squirming too much.

was enjoying watching Salmond squirming too much

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b05x80zm/this-week-28052015

I come back to Carmichael's letter where he speaks of the details being incorrect, the inference being he believes the general thrust of what was written is true. His crime, a serious one, was to lie about the leak. He failed in Salomond's words at the "art of politics"

The amount raised for the legal fees is now over £40,000

This isn't going to go away.

Steady now we are mocking AS for something that happened months ago

The ability of some England dwelling RW to get worked up by AS is limitless and timeless as well

JY, we are speaking of the programme last night, it did happen to bring up something from a while ago.

@epic, no issue at all with filing a legal challenge, filing sand winning are of course two different things. I'm surprised the Wier's haven't put up the money to be honest