[Closed] Alistair Carmichael, catspaw or lying toad.

Lying toad

Both?

When will we the people ever have decent moral and ethical representation?

Surely by definition this kind of behaviour is the antithesis of honourable? Or am I niave and unrealistic?

He leaked meno, lied about it then set up a £1.5m, tax payer funded, enquiry to find out it's source.

In light of all the austerity, he should be booted out! How many bobbies would that £1.5mil cover?

Duplicitous scum bag who should resign as a MP,

toad, by-election should be called, that'd send him packing

Is it not the case that the leaked memo is also a fake, given that all parties now agree the claimed conversation never took place?

IMO he has to go and the SNP will win the by-election.

I'm going with incompetent lying toad.

If you're gonna be a scumbag, at least be respectful enough to be good at it.

Lied to cover his own backside. Libdems have confirmed he won't be disciplined he should resign but he won't.

If the election was in a month's time there, there is no way would he have his 800 majority (down from circa 2000 last time iirc). So yes if one of the advantages of fptp is that you vote for the individual candidate as well as the party, then he should stand again in a by-election and let his constituents decide based on this rather new and important information.

I think he would be sunk without trace if a by-election was called

Is it not the case that the leaked memo is also a fake, given that all parties now agree the claimed conversation never took place?

Well, they would say that wouldn't they!

There is no evidence to say that the memo is false, indeed everything points towards the memo being a true record of the conversation.

[i]

Following the leak of a Scotland Office memorandum that formed the basis of a story in the Daily Telegraph on 3 April, the Cabinet Secretary instigated a Cabinet Office-led leak inquiry to establish how this memo came to be written and how it got into the public domain. The inquiry process is now complete.

[b]The memo[/b]
The investigation team interviewed the civil servant in the Scotland Office who produced the memo. He confirmed under questioning that he believed that the memo was an accurate record of the conversation that took place between him and the French Consul General, and highlighted that the memo had stated that part of the conversation between the French Ambassador and the First Minister might well have been “lost in translation”.

Senior officials who have worked with him say that he is reliable and has no history of inaccurate reporting, impropriety or security lapses. The Cabinet Secretary has concluded that there is no reason to doubt that he recorded accurately what he thought he had heard. There is no evidence of any political motivation or ‘dirty tricks’.

[b]The leak[/b]
In investigating the source of the leak, the investigation team searched all relevant official phone records, emails and print logs. Those who had access to the memo were asked to complete a questionnaire on what they did with the memo when they received it. They were then interviewed.

The investigation established the following facts:

an official mobile phone was used to make telephone calls to one of the authors of the Daily Telegraph story. This phone was held by Euan Roddin, previously Special Adviser to the then Secretary of State for Scotland, Alistair Carmichael
Mr Roddin confirmed that he provided a copy of the Scotland Office memo to a Daily Telegraph journalist on 1 April 2015, and discussed the memo with the journalist on a number of occasions. He told the investigation team that he acted in what he saw as the public interest and that in his view the public needed to be aware of the position attributed to the First Minister
Alistair Carmichael confirmed that he had been asked by Mr Roddin for his view of the possibility of sharing the memo with the press. Mr Carmichael agreed that this should occur. He recognises that, as a Secretary of State, he was responsible for his own conduct and that of his Special Adviser. He could and should have stopped the sharing of the memo and accordingly accepts responsibility for what occurred
no-one else had any involvement in the leaking of the memo
The investigation team has therefore concluded that Mr Roddin, with the assent of Mr Carmichael in the circumstances described above, was the direct source of the Daily Telegraph story. The Cabinet Secretary has accepted their findings in full. Mr Carmichael and Mr Roddin have also accepted the conclusions.

Neither Mr Carmichael nor Mr Roddin will take their severance pay.[/i]

Of which, the response is of course 'well, they would say that wouldn't they?'

[quote=piemonster opined]I'm going with incompetent lying toad.
If you're gonna be a scumbag, at least be respectful enough to be good at it.

THIS
I am not sure what is worse the lying, being crap at it or the cover up or the costs
Either way we dont need peope llike this in politics

There is no evidence to say that the memo is false, indeed everything points towards the memo being a true record of the conversation.

Christ man you dont have like to murder some points to death
I will just leave this here rather than engage directly
[img] [/img]

He recognises that, as a Secretary of State, he was responsible for his own conduct and that of his Special Adviser. He could and should have stopped the sharing of the memo and accordingly accepts responsibility for what occurred
no-one else had any involvement in the leaking of the memo

Ninfan, whataboutery. He still stated several times before the election that he knew nothing of the leak, and gambled on the inquiry turning up no evidence against him (as is more often the case in leak enquiries iirc). Does the disputed accuracy of the memo change the significance of the above? -(coped from your cut'n'paste)

There is no evidence to say that the memo is false, indeed everything points towards the memo being a true record of the conversation.

That's not what it says. The enquiry accepts that it was a fair recording of what the civil servant thought he heard, barring translation issues and barring the fact that neither he or the person he was talking to were actually at the original meeting. Even if the memo is accurate we've no idea of how much of what was said was 2nd or 3rd hand interpretation (or even jokes), but given everyone that actually was involved in the original meeting denies it was true (and no-one has disputed that) then in fact all the evidence points to the memo being inaccurate.

Indeed you can argue its a genuine mistake or an accurate recording of chinese whispers etc but you cannot [ well you can but not credibly] say its true.

That's not what it says.

I was referring to it being a true record of the conversation between the Consul General and the civil servant who wrote it (I thought that was obvious, since the civil servant who wrote it was not at the meeting between Sturgeon and the Ambassador)

I thought Jivehoneyjive was a bit mad but ninfan is utterly delusional

I was referring to it being a true record of the conversation between the Consul General and the civil servant who wrote it (I thought that was obvious, since the civil servant who wrote it was not at the meeting between Sturgeon and the Ambassador)

Not even that's true, as the guy that wrote the memo has said he there may well be translation issues so it might not even be an accurate record of a discussion between two people who weren't even at the meeting.

Harping on about the contents of the memo is 100% pure Tory spin - it's completely devalued and denied by all relevant parties.

That, on the other hand, does appear to be accurate...

 

actual text:

[i]• The Ambassador also had a truncated meeting with the FM (FM running late after a busy Thursday…). Discussion appears to have focused mainly on the political situation, with the FM stating that she wouldn’t want a formal coalition with Labour; that the SNP would almost certainly have a large number of seats; that she had no idea ‘what kind of mischief’ Alex Salmond would get up to; and confessed that she’d rather see David Cameron remain as PM (and didn’t see Ed Miliband as PM material). I have to admit that I’m not sure that the FM’s tongue would be quite so loose on that kind of thing in a meeting like that, so it might well be a case of something being lost in translation.[/i]

......

Harping on about the contents of the memo is 100% pure Tory spin

Eh? What's it got to do with the tories? It was leaked by a Scottish Lib Dem!

Classic behaviour, I see it all the time, where people only really read the first part of an email.

Everything after the first paragraph may as well not have been written, like the bit about being "lost in translation".

I bet about only 25% of STW will read this sentence, so I can put pretty much anything I like here!

To be fair here JHJ tends to believe what he says whilst being far more outrageous than Ninfan who likes to say argue things for the sake of it* and occasionally actually agrees with himself

There is no evidence to say that the memo is false[1], indeed everything points towards the memo being a true record of the conversation[2].

1. Everyone accepts that what is said was not true
2.The author accepts that it may be "lost in translation"

Even using your narrow definition its still not a reasonable claim ; both premises are false.
* not a dig, at either, to be clear but that was pretty daft even by your standards

Much earlier in the thread:

He leaked meno, lied about it then set up a £1.5m, tax payer funded, enquiry to find out it's source.

Ninfan, the content and accuracy is one issue, perhaps we should have a thread about that too. Getting back to the title of the thread, he still lied more than once about being involved in the leak. In fact there were only 2 people involved and one was him, a minister to boot.

It almost sounds as though like you think that the content of the leak justified both leaking it, and lying to the public about his involvment in it just before a general election. I seem to remember you having opinions on the legitimacy of other famous leaks in discussions on here. Are there 'good' and 'bad' ones then?

julianwilson - Member

If the election was in a month's time there, there is no way would he have his 800 majority (down from circa 2000 last time iirc)

Down from nearly 10,000 last time.

Is it not the case that the leaked memo is also a fake, given that all parties now agree the claimed conversation never took place?

2) There doesn't seem to be any credible suggestion that the author of the memo was being duplicitous or misleading. S/he even flags up that the Sturgeon assertion may be inaccurate.

3) Carmichael certainly leaked the memo.

It almost sounds as though like you think that the content of the leak justified both leaking it, and lying to the public about his involvment in it just before a general election.

I dont know where you got any of that from? Sure as hell it's not anything I said!

He lied, for his own political reasons - that's clearly wrong, as was leaking it, but as far as I can see, the only people involved here were the French, the Limp Damps and the SNP, so to me I'm afraid it's all a bit 'no humans involved' 😉

So a Yellow Tory lied with the intension of damaging the SNP's chances, right in the run up to an election. I used to be a Lib supporter. I now find that so embarrassing.

He should, of course, stand down and consider whether to take part in a new election. In which the Libs would likely lose their last Scottish MP. Or he can try to bluff it out.

His next visit to his constituency is going to be interesting.

There is no credible suggestion that the memo is fake. The memo is unquestionably real.

Its true its real but its true [ what it says] is false

Its a real true falshood hence the confusion when the word "true" or "fake" is used

I assume fake meant false or not genuine rather than the memo itself was faked Ninfans true meant real as in it is a "true" account of what happened but what was said was all not true/accurate.

I dont know where you got any of that from? Sure as hell it's not anything I said!

Ninfan, why else would you derail a thread about the morals and future of a (now former) minister lying to the public, just beforea general election in which he was returned with a slim majority, with paragraphs about the truth/untruth of what it was he was actually lying about? I am sure you have seen and challenged may instances of such whataboutery on here over the years.

Anyone would think you are just oppositional for oppositional's sake. It is quite possible that right now you could be having just as much fun are arguing just the opposite on a lib dem chatroom somewhere.

Eh? I was answering someone else's question on whether it was fake!

JY - you make a good point, we needed to seperate real/fake from accurate/inaccurate

He should be sent to bed with no pudding!

Its true its real but its true [ what it says] is false

Malkyavellian: Trying to be crafty and cunning in politics, but failing spectacularly through stupidity.

Carmichaels next meeting with his msp colleagues Liam Maccarthur and Tavish Scott should be lively

I think any error (if there is any) is with the reader, not the writer).

The best we can say is there was no malice in the initial chinese whisper being recorded by the CS but what he said happened did and yet it did not. To clarify someone said that someone said something but the someone they spoke of never said what they said they said

Hopefully we have cleared that up

I can faithfully record someone saying the moon landings were faked, that prince charles is made of cheese.
IMHO there is considerable error there.

It would be better if Prince Charles was made of cheese.... something ripe old and slightly crumbly

To clarify someone said that someone said something but the someone they spoke of [u]claims they[/u] never said what they said they said

We're in to known knows and known unknowns here, but we really can't ascertain whether NS did or didn't say it.

yourguitarhero - Member
He should be sent to bed with no pudding!

we really can't ascertain whether NS did or didn't say it.

I got told that Prince Charles said that Cameron said he would rather Milliband was PM than Boris. I did not believe a word of it but we cannot be certain can we?

* I guess you could stretch the point about what certain meant but the apology included an admission it was not true. No one seems to be willing to argue that what the note said really happened except you.

When Carmichael appeared as Scottish Secretary, I assumed for a while he was Tory - hard to believe he was a LibDem in same mould as Campbell, Kennedy et al. Didn't appreciate his general tone in the referendum and the election stuff was rank. This as a LibDem voter (previously...)

The Grauniad seems to think it could result in a By-Election...

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/23/alistair-carmichael-liberal-democrats-byelection-threat-leak-snp-sturgeon

... one the SNP could easily win.

How much money has this lying shit cost us all?

I do agree a by election is a reasonable outcome here as he has shown himself to be unfit for public office on a number of fronts ranging from the decision , the denial, the investigation costs and the re election "fraud".

Its probably a bit late to expect a principled action from him tbh but he needs to never see a publicly funded pudding bowl ever again.

It's all a plot to get Wee Eck back in the spotlight 😉

Junky - 1.4M alleged on the investigation. Plus there may be room for legal action under 'Representation of the People'. But I read someone needs the funds to risk it.

I'm failing to understand how someone who has been up to no good, and then LIED about it, then ADMITTED LYING, can hold on to their position.

amazed the dodgy git hasn't been booted yet, wtf is the liberal party doing saying he will not face party disciplinary proceedings!!!!!!!!!

I suspect that they do not want to lose another seat and go down to just 7. Just shows how ****ed up their thinking is, they don't see it is exactly this kind of lack of principles that has decimated their electoral support.

The right to freedom of speech is a fundamental one but it does bring a responsibility with it to tell the truth. The right to smear an opponent is not one we should be defending.

The Grauniad seems to think it could result in a By-Election...

The Grauniad is wrong - the Recall of MPs Act hasn't actually come into force yet.

as has been mentioned in various other places on the net.

The FACT he lied about this is surprisingly absent from most stories on this....

Another interesting question is how much did Mundell, at the SO at the time and Carmichael's successor, know about it?

bencooper - Member
Another interesting question is how much did Mundell, at the SO at the time and Carmichael's successor, know about it?

Or, seeing as it is such a small operation, how could he not have known about it?

He now has the backing of his party leader in Scotland. Now why were they almost wiped out in the polls? Was it because they e shown themselves not to be worthy of our trust?

He now has the backing of his party leader in Scotland. Now why were they almost wiped out in the polls? Was it because they e shown themselves not to be worthy of our trust?

They're desperate - if they have to go back to the polls they'll be history in Scotland, maybe for ever.

Or, seeing as it is such a small operation, how could he not have known about it?

Precisely - they were working side by side, cooperated during the Referendum, and Carmichael had it for three weeks before it was leaked. What's the chances he kept a juicy bit of material like that to himself?

They must really have thought they were on a winner with that one.

The fear and smear tactics worked in the referendum so they didn't bank on that having innoculated us from believing anything they produced in the election.

And what is a civil servant doing releasing political material to the press? Surely that's for the political staff. The civil servant should be sacked IMO.

[url= http://services.parliament.uk/bills/2014-15/recallofmps.html ]Should there be moves afoot to trigger this? and ironically wasn't it one of Clegg's babies?[/url]

There's a good post here...

http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-naked-liar/#more-71358

... by Eric Joyce (yes, that Eric Joyce). It's worth reading. One point is that, if he doesn't stand down for re-election, the SNP will have a stick with which to beat the Libs until the next election.

Epic Euan Roddin was a Special Advisor which is a fixed term political appointment and not technically a part of the civil service. [url= https://edinburgheye.wordpress.com/2015/05/25/shetland-and-orkney-and-alistair-carmichael/#more-16856 ]good blog here[/url]

Epic Also although the act of parliament enabling constituents to recall mps has passed both houses certain statutory instruments it requires are not in place yet and it effectively doesn't become law till they are in place. So it looks like Carmichael can get away without being recalled

gordimhor - Member
Epic Euan Roddin was a Special Advisor...

Thanks. That just makes him a professional liar rather than a corrupt civil servant then. 🙂

Also although the act of parliament enabling constituents to recall mps has passed both houses certain statutory instruments it requires are not in place yet and it effectively doesn't become law till they are in place. So it looks like Carmichael can get away without being recalled

Damn! Although it's possible the Labour party may have even more desire to do him than the SNP, and he's probably made a few enemies on the Tory side, so it's still possible... 🙂

His locals are upset:

A crowd funding appeal will be launched tomorrow as Alistair Carmichael has said he has no intention of resigning. This will be to fund a petition to the court of session which will be lodged on Wednesday this week. If everyone who has liked this page dontates £1 we will have the £6000 needed to lodge with the Court our case.

Lying toe rag ( like so many, he has just been caught).
He should go, and be investigated for fraud IMO.

If we prosecuted a few more public figures for all sorts of wrong doings, we may have half a chance of weeding out the cheats, frauds and lying toads.

epi - linky please

slowoldgit - Member
epi - linky please

Tried to copy the link. It's on Yes Orkney's FaceBook Page

So I've copied their whole post.

If anything comes of it, then there will be a crowdfunding appeal happening real soon.

Farming4Yes shared Yes Orkney's post.
12 hrs ·
Watch this space....if you want to make a statement and define exactly who is in charge!
I always thought that mostly we had little say in who represented us generally, in Westminster....but this last election, and the Scottish one before, have made me realise that together we have the power to make changes.
For the first time in my life, I have a politician, an MP, in Westminster, that I helped choose, select, and vote for....that is something special!
But I also believe if he doesn't deliver, or falls below the standards I expect, or feel are my own, then I can do something about it.
In the case of Orkney and Shetland, I don't think I would accept the money wasted from my taxes, and yours, spent on an enquiry that was expensive and pointless.
For a former solicitor, former Secretary of State ( just) and representative of supposed moral standards to the people of the Islands, of Scotland, and indeed, the island of Islay, birthplace of my Father, to not just authorise a smear champagne, with international involvement, during an election, then lie to deny it, making little of its importance, and then finally come clean WHEN HE WAS CAUGHT after an expensive enquiry......with the idea he could just get a wee telling off ( and okay, so he disnae get his severance, but that's a minor part of his yearly income).... Sorry, this to me screams " professional and cynical Foul" if ye like the Jim Murphy way of analogy. that's where ye ken fine the risks and the reward, and do it for the rewards......
Red Card offence.....my opinion, he should be sent off!
Especially as he has no intention of going!
So I'm supporting the crowdfunder once Orkney and Shetland get going.....I still mind find fine Alastairs wee Twain quote about reports of his death being exaggerated.....oh really?
There are a few more Twain quotes I could send to him..."politicians and diapers must be changed often, and fir the same reason" and....."Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it".
DFG

Yes Orkney
A crowd funding appeal will be launched tomorrow as Alistair Carmichael has said he has no intention of resigning. This will be to fund a petition to the court of session which will be lodged on Wednesday this week. If everyone who has liked this page dontates £1 we will have the £6000 needed to lodge with the Court our case. More details later.

Did I miss something? Did a politician tell a lie? I'm shocked!

Let them that's never lied cast the first request for a resignation. Also let those who condem (see that) be measured by the same standard.

I suspect that Mr Carmichael will be on his way soon due to the pressure and complete crash in his reputation and rightly so. To listen to some clamoring for his head, it would leave me to suspect he is the whipping boy for them not being on the winning side at this election or perhaps its because he was formerly a minister in the last government.

The only party I'd trust not to tell me a lie is the Green Party

mt - Member
Did I miss something? Did a politician tell a lie? I'm shocked!
...

Yes, but it's the problem of us not having any recourse if they do.

Make them accountable for lies and broken promises, and we'll get better representation.

It looks like there may be a chance of making Carmichael accountable for this particular bit of deliberate deceit, and the next few days will see if that's possible. There's an attempt to crowdfund a legal challenge.

If it works, it will put all our politicians on their toes.

We win.

He's a hero. He has exposed the doublespeak of Nicola Sturgeon. Of course she wanted Cameron as Prime Minister as it serves the SNP agenda of "nasty Westminster and Scotland didn't get the Government it voted for"

I may have been inoculated by too much British politics*, but this seemed to me to be intermediate-level SPADing and leaking, rather than something grandly malevolent.

And I continue to find it very plausible that the SNP are delighted to have a Tory government, whatever they say or said...

*and The Thick Of It

jambalaya - Member

He's a hero. He has exposed the doublespeak of Nicola Sturgeon. Of course she wanted Cameron as Prime Minister as it serves the SNP agenda of "nasty Westminster and Scotland didn't get the Government it voted for"

So it is ok to do the things you often accuse the SNP of as long as it is attacking the SNP? Neat double standard there,which you will no doubt ignore.

No need to ignore anything, what Carmichael did pales into insignificance in comparison to the lies pedaled by the SNP

Sturgeon absolutely made the remark, no doubt about it at all in my mind.

no doubt about it at all in my mind.

And we all no how departed from reality that is.

Sturgeon absolutely made the remark, no doubt about it at all in my mind.

You must be the French Ambassador then, and I claim my Five Euros please.

Inside Jambalaya's head:

[i]Those minutes are an aide-mémoire
for us.

They should not be a reductive record
of what happened to have been said,
but they should be more a full record of
what was intended to have been said.

I think that's the more accurate version,
don't you?[/i]

He's a hero. He has exposed the doublespeak of Nicola Sturgeon

[img] [/img]
/p>

Sturgeon absolutely made the remark, no doubt about it at all in my mind.

To then go on about SNP lies whilst doing this

is this an episode of Brass Eye?

you have just replaced JHJ as the Forums the person least likely to listen to evidence/ process facts.
FFS this is not even ambiguous as the people who did it raised doubts and /or admitted it was not true

Not sure if trolling or stupid here tbh as that is a somewhat strange view you have taken utterly at odds with all the facts and is frankly, untenable in the extreme.
WOW there really is no point debating with you as facts dont matter to you.

Careful Jambalaya, when the SNP lie about things and then waste taxpayers money trying to cover it up, then even more taxpayers money on an 'independent' inquiry that coincidentally clears them of all wrongdoing - they are not lying, they are only giving "muddled and potentially confusing" answers

WOW there really is no point debating with you as facts dont matter to you.

[i]We have all the facts on this we need.
We don't need any more facts.[/i]

Okay, I'll stop doing "In The Loop" quotes now 😉

wrongdoing

?

😆

I'll have what he's drinking, thanks