[Closed] Alcohol limits for drivers

country pubs, employment therein, etc.

and for all the above average drivers it's a real pain (apparently).

IMHO, no-brainer; aircrew and train staff:

Breath: 9 μg of alcohol in 100 ml. (35 on road, E&W)
Blood: 20 mg of alcohol in 100 ml. (80 on road, E&W)

No brainer just get on with it there is no excuse to drink alcohol if you're driving.

No brainer just get on with it there is no excuse to drink alcohol if you’re driving.

Indeedy.

Chanel 2 now . They are discussing this .

For me it's any alcohol no driving.

I'm not unhappy with the rules in E&W and do allow myself a pint but the lower limit seems to work well in Scotland (where I also spend some time).

IMO there should be a low limit like in much of Scandinavian - 20 ie lower than the scottish limit of 50  and much lower than the English limit of 80.  If you make it zero then someone who had one pint 12 hours before would fail the test - thats not right.  But one pint and drive  should be a fail.  You are already impaired at one pint of ordinary beer.  Its been proven.

Despite the claims of the death of country pubs in scotland with the lowering of the limit and the damage to golf club profits and the like I have seen no actual evidence of this happening ( has anyone?)

I would also make a drink driving fail mean automatic jailtime.  Just a couple of weeks and can be done in your holidays if you are employed but a fine of a couple of hundred and a ban is not enough to deter the hardcore. ( and in that I include the "couple of pints is fine" bunch as well as the hard core drinkers)l  Its needs to be jail

I wish the successful demonisation of being DUI could be spread to being on the phone (including hands-free, which is a joke that it's legal), tailgating, driving knackered, joining from a slip-road at whatever speed you like as if you have priority and undertaking.

All spectacularly dangerous, the cause of many more accidents than DUI and topics that are easy targets for a public campaign ...but we only drone on about alcohol levels.

Cite?  Drink driving kills around 300 people a year.  thats 15% of all road deaths IIRC.  How many are caused by the things you mention?

Probably around 85%

Probably around 85%

You have no idea then.

Surprising that humour was lost on you.

No, I seen what you did to try and not answer the question.

I would also allow random breath testing.  At the moment the police have to haver suspicion before they can test.  I'd like to see roadblocks and test everyone driving down that road.

<div class="bbp-reply-author">kcal
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country pubs

There doesn't seem to be any evidence for that; traders in Scotland claimed that it caused a downturn but actually the trend was no different to the north of England which had no change in the law so it seems to be bobbins.

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But even if it did actually have an impact... Seems reasonable to say suck it up. Lets say they introduced tougher rules on drunk and disorderly, would we listen to clubs that said the drinkin-and-fightin trade was essential for their profits?

Think we have it right in Englandshire I have driven with 2 pints of normal brew normally after a ride  and i can cofindently say it has no effect on my driving if anything it makes me a better driver as I am more conscious of my surroundings and other drivers. I know i am going to get flamed for this but just trying to be honest. Will not drive after a heavy night on the ale and usually abstain for the next 24hrs

You must be a really shit driver Rich if alcohol improves it.

Entirely anecdotal based on visiting the same island in Scotland once or twice a year, but the reduced limit has had no effect on the locals (or tourists for that matter) driving to the local boozer, having three, four or more pints then getting back in their car or 4x4 and driving home. No I know on said island there isn’t much in the way of opportunity to crash in to other cars but it still astonished me that it seems to be entirely acceptable, and the bobby posted to the island must turn a blind eye to it as it would be like shooting fish in a barrel if they really wanted to catch people, they could lock up half the population most weeks if they really wanted to.

No, I seen what you did to try and not answer the question.

I still remain amazed you're allowed to be a representative of this place. I posted my simple thoughts on a topic, and you're in there like an uncontrollable fart trying to find any way out to express your opinion. Negative, naturally.

You must be a really shit driver Rich if alcohol improves it.

I think the point being if a person has had one or two drinks they're aware of this so concentrate more.

Whether this makes them safer I have no idea. I generally don't drink and drive at all, on the rare occasions I do its one drink only.

Not against lowering the limit per see, but most of not all the bad driving i see can be put down to aggressiveness I. E. Entitlement or not paying attention I. E. Mobile phones..

It's all a moot point anyway as there are not enough police to prosecute enough people for anything to make anyone care.

Can't agree with the "no cause" approach to policing.

It's just a waste of the law abiding public's time and police resources to road block and breath test.

To observe the proper legalities takes time, if you rush it a smart arse lawyer will get the one offender you catch off the hook and it's a crap use of scarce resource.

I don't drink a drop if I'm driving the same day (no lunch time beer and drive home 5hours later) and I won't drive the day after a big night out so I have nothing to fear but getting held up for 30 minutes while someone processes 3 cars in front of me and then goes through the motions with me would proper annoy me when I know I've not done anything wrong.

By all means though drop the limit if you like.

Very good Drac 🙂

Very good Drac

I'd imagine Drac has seen more of the consequences of DD than all of us put together 🙁🙁

 i can cofindently say it has no effect on my driving if anything it makes me a better driver as I am more conscious of my surroundings and other drivers

They should obviously make a couple of pints mandatory for police and ambulance drivers then.

I’d imagine Drac has seen more of the consequences of DD than all of us put together

Speeding more so but seen my fair share as have others on here.

I usually drive sober but I see now that this is irresponsible

i can cofindently say it has no effect on my driving if anything it makes me a better driver as I am more conscious of my surroundings and other drivers.

That's what a couple of pints makes you think. In the old days I've driven home along the back roads with one eye closed and got home in one piece so it must have been OK. It wasn't.

i can cofindently say it has no effect on my driving

So either the scientific studies demonstrating that alcohol impairs driving ability are wrong, or there is something special about you.

I think the point being if a person has had one or two drinks they’re aware of this so concentrate more.

Alcohol impairs your physical ability to drive, but it also lowers your inhibitions and compromises your ability to make rational decisions, so the argument that a wee drink is going to make you all sensible and careful doesn't hold much water.

It’s all a pointless argument anyway.

Since moving out to the sticks I’ve realised that people who drink drive couldn’t give a shit as long as they know they won’t get caught.

And with the traffic police in this country now essentially being yellow boxes sat by the side of the road, they know there’s precious little chance of that  happening.

So the hand-wringers debate this bollocks, meanwhile Dave has 7 pints of Stella after work then drives his car home with impunity

You can set the limit at no alcohol for a week before you get in a car.... who’s going to enforce it? The 3 traffic cops left in the U.K.?

It’s all a moot point anyway as there are not enough police to prosecute enough people for anything to make anyone care.

Sadly I agree with this. I firmly believe that if you’re going to drink alcohol you shouldn’t drive. Leave the  car at home or have somebody else drive.

Binners +1000.

Country pubs and golf clubs round here are still absolutely rife with DD. I've never, ever in my life seen a random breath test pulling people in, and the traffics are only ever to be found at speeding black spots on the dual carriageway.

There's a retiree pulls up outside my local rural pub - a few miles inland - in a big old Merc, first noticed him as it's on a blind corner and a right bad bit to park, there's a car park round the back. He always orders a pint for him, and a bottle of red for him and his missus to share. God knows if he has any more, as I only ever pop in on a ride up the river trails, I'm sure he doesn't stop at that.

I love it when people shout cite in internet chat rooms.

I think we should have refresher training and retests, then at least we'll all be better at it when we've had a couple.

Don't people who drink and drive worry about being caught? That is enough of a deterrent for me - lose licence, lose job, can't pay mortgage, lose house, etc, etc

James, read Binners post....

I’ve never, ever in my life seen a random breath test pulling people in,

That will be because the police are not allowed to do random breath tests.  They do catch a fair few - couple of hundred a year just in the lothian and border area IIRC

Postierich.  You should be driving carefully and paying maximum attention all the time.  2 pints and your chances of crashing are many times higher.

That will be because the police are not allowed to do random breath tests.  They do catch a fair few – couple of hundred a year just in the lothian and border area IIRC

Oops, I thought they still could. Anyway, less than 1 a week, that would suggest the ones they caught will have been involved in accidents, and tested as per protocol.

So, as long as you don't crash, yer laughing, basically.

I’d much rather they concentrated limited resources to target driving whilst tired and poor driving in general as that is the cause of the vast majority of RTA’s.

I’ve been up n’ down the A75 every day for the past fortnight wi mum to visit dad in hospital and the standard of driving is **** atrocious, tailgating being a particular way to really piss me off to the point that I’ve now started carrying a bag of crab apples, if a slight dab of the brake doesn’t make them drop back to a safe distance then i start lobbing apples out of my window at them.  Today being an example of particular ****wittery as I was overtaken outside Springholm during the very windy and extremely wet stormy morning, I was only doing 40mph as the road conditions were very dodgy with limited visibility due to the amount of rain but the guy behind me took offence at my speed and howled past me in his car, two miles up the road I passed him, his car was mashed rather badly into a large branch that’d blown down onto the road.

When I used to ride motorbikes if I had one pint I could really notice the difference it made to my riding ability, you don't notice the difference as much sat in a nice warm car but you're just as impaired, you just don't realise it.

The current limit in England and Wales is way too high IMO.

No beer.  Having worked alongside cops a smsall bit its certainly not just the crashers.  Usually on intelligence IE someone shops a drunk driver or a roadside test cos a copo saw them driving erratically.

What about when riding bicycles? any moral difference?  You could cause a bus full of pensioners to swerve that than mows down a queue of folk waiting for something - bosh - 100 dead.

I thought the law was five and drive for golfers?

Cite? Drink driving kills around 300 people a year.

Cite?

Didn't think it was that high a percentage.

I personally think that our limits are too high, and anyone who says they lost their licence after two pints is a ****ing liar.

Somafunk..

You start lobbing crab apples out of the window at them...

While all the while giving 100% concentration to the road ahead ..

I've heard it all now ...😂

Having moved from the UK to Norway several years ago i can say that when the limit is almost zero and the police can (and do) pull over everyone and breathalyse, you very quickly get used to this. Been checked on road leaving airport at 11pm, and regularly see random road blocks when I’m out riding early on sat and sun mornings. Enforcement and low limit really works, no one complains.

What about when riding bicycles? any moral difference?

Aye, arguably.... But on a bike ride i'll happily have 3 pints of local ale and still ride home.

sbob - itsin the OP article at the beginning of this thread

So how many lives does Prof Allsop think are currently lost due to drink driving?

"The official figure is about 240 a year," he says, "but what is not reflected in that figure is that there are quite a lot of collisions happening where no-one has been driving over the [80mg/100ml] limit but, nevertheless, they are having collisions that they would not have had if they not been drinking - and the best estimate that we can make of the hidden drink drive deaths is about another 60.

2 pints will put you over the limit for many folk in England and everyone in Scotland ( lower limit)

Just ignore him TJ can't you see what he's doing.

Tuboflard,

There are many reasons why a Scottish island cop might not be prioritising drink driving (until you crash).  I wouldn’t assume they can be extrapolated to the mainland.  Certainly in populated areas there is a concerted police effort and a change in driver atttitude to “just one glass” following the limit change.

Binners x 10,000

No point decreasing a limit that just doesn't get enforced anyway when all it will do is further damage the country pubs that are already closing at a considerable rate.  After all why would I stop at a country pub after riding if I couldn't enjoy a single post ride pint of low strength 'driving ale' and a packet of crisps before the trip home?

Thanks to the 'speed kills' campaign, and the excessively ranty folks from Brake, road policing in the UK is now done almost entirely by camera, demonizing those who dare to drive a few mph above the posted limit (it's a limit, not a target don't you know)!!!

Meanwhile in the real world I witness careless, bullying, inconsiderate and aggressive driving that beggars belief on a daily basis.  I witness countless people engrossed in their phones, doing makeup, lane hoggers and tailgaters, drivers with no tax, mot or insurance.  People with not a single visible thing about their driving that makes you think they've even heard of the highway code.

Thanks to this countries obsession with 'speed kills', all the above can just carry on as before knowing that they are unlikely to ever get caught . . . . provided they don't stray a few mph over the speed limit of course.

There’s a retiree pulls up outside my local rural pub – a few miles inland – in a big old Merc, first noticed him as it’s on a blind corner and a right bad bit to park, there’s a car park round the back. He always orders a pint for him, and a bottle of red for him and his missus to share. God knows if he has any more, as I only ever pop in on a ride up the river trails, I’m sure he doesn’t stop at that.

Have you know thought about reporting him?

I've always been of the opinion you can lower to whatever you want, but some people will think it doesn't apply to them. I doubt it would have that much effect on safety, but may exacerbate the closure of a lot of rural pubs/restaurants.

The current limit allows people to [safely] have one drink when they go out. Any lower and it probably wouldn't.

Having said all that, I've never had a friend or relative die due to a drunk driver.

2 pints will put you over the limit for many folk in England

I don't think it will...

Just ignore him TJ can’t you see what he’s doing.

I was against the decision to reduce the limit in Scotland. Thought it was quite the over reaction. Having lived with it for a good few years now I’m happy to admit I was wrong and that it was the right thing to do. I never drank and drove anyway but it has made me have a good think about driving the morning after a good night out. I now think it’s time to reduce it to maybe 40 as well as introduce similar penalties for driving while using a phone, smoking or listening to Moneybox Live.

 you can lower to whatever you want, but some people will think it doesn’t apply to them

This is undoubtedly true. However, it would still work as a deterrent to most. We've seen a huge shift in public perception of "drunk driving", even since I first had a driving licence. Once upon a time I'd think nothing of having 3 pints and jumping on my motorbike or in my car - everyone was doing it - now most folk woukd consider that to be unacceptable and there's even the risk that you would be reported for doing so.

This also addresses the (lack of) policing argument. Change the law and you will immediately reduce the overall levels, even if the hard core ignore them.

The current limit allows people to [safely] have one drink when they go out.

Safely drive or drive safe from prosecution?

This also addresses the (lack of) policing argument. Change the law and you will immediately reduce the overall levels, even if the hard core ignore them.

Yup just like the claims when wearing a seat belt became legal.

This also addresses the (lack of) policing argument. Change the law and you will immediately reduce the overall levels, even if the hard core ignore them.

Does the same apply to mobile phone use behind the wheel?  Penalties increased recently yet I see more and more people on phones than ever before!

I’ve always been of the opinion you can lower to whatever you want, but some people will think it doesn’t apply to them. I doubt it would have that much effect on safety, but may exacerbate the closure of a lot of rural pubs/restaurants.

If only there was a nearby country with a generally similar culture, education level, driver training and licensing regime, that had reduced its limit so you could do the experiment and see.

TJ, I’d be sceptical that two weeks in the jail at a time to suit the offender is any more of a deterrent than a ban. Especially because the daily mail says they are all holiday camps!  In my view it’s either a belief that they aren’t over the limit or won’t get caught.

bear in mind that jailing someone for two weeks costs the state thousands... probably about 7000 per head.  There’s 85k DD convictions in England and Wales a year.  600M pa if it has zero effect as a deterrent!

The lower limit in Scotland is better as it removes the question fir me about whether you can drive on one or two pints. Now I just don't drink at all if driving. No grey area. It is impossible to think of a single reason why this should not be applied UK wide.

Interestingly my brother in law traveled up from England a while ago and had a couple of pints over a meal before driving, he had no idea that there is a different limit here. Luckily he was staying on a west coast island at the time so it didn't really matter ...

Does the same apply to mobile phone use behind the wheel?  Penalties increased recently yet I see more and more people on phones than ever before!

Or maybe you've just noticed it more?

My own perception, is that most people understand the limit to be no more than 1 or 2 pints. And if we're talking 2 pints, we're talking over a time frame...

I'd guess that the vast majority of alcohol induced accidents (if not all) happen beyond this level of consumption?

While I tend to agree that there's no real reason to drink even this amount while you're driving, and that it's wise to refrain. I'd be willing to bet however, that the average person has spent more time closer to (and possibly over the limit), unintentionally, the morning after, as opposed to having a couple of drinks then getting back in the car. Obviously this is just as bad (I've seen plenty of people openly admit to driving drunk in the morning, who would never drink drive normally). But the current limit does provide a small buffer for what could be a genuine misjudgement with minimal risk.

I also tend to think that those who willingly ignore the law currently, will continue to do so anyway. The chances of actually being caught are quite slim, until you're involved in an accident. And that's what it comes down to for many people. Changing the limits will have no impact on that.

For the most part, we have come a long way with drink driving in this country, and I believe most people adhere to the law. We need to continue with what we're doing, and also make it easy for people to travel without driving.

I think currently, the big thing is driver distraction and we would save more lives focusing on how we prevent that: what laws are required, and how it is policed. Rather than nitpicking existing laws that already work.

We need to seriously think about how we mitigate risk in this society.  There are calls from the more vocal an opinionated sorts to 'ban' anything that they personally consider to be outside of their comfort zone.

Recently I read a local news article about a windsurfer who went out in some pretty stormy conditions, the sorts of conditions that only the experts go out in.  I know him - he was a very experienced sailor but on this occasion he had a kit malfunction whilst some way out at sea.  In the process of getting himself back to land (which he would have been able to do - he didn't want rescuing), some people watching called the coastguard on his behalf and the lifeboat was launched to bring him in.

Cue all sorts of frothing and ranting from newspaper readers.  Comments included "he should be banned from the water", "he should have to pay for his own rescue/NHS etc", "what a selfish pr*ck for putting the lives of the rescue crews in danger", "rules need to be brought in to stop idiots like him" etc, etc - you get the picture.

Ironic that most of the negative comments were probably from the people who's only regular exposure to risk is the risk to their arteries when popping another slice of pizza in their gob in front of the TV.  Also ironic that I also know a crew member of the lifeboat station who took part in the unwanted rescue.  He's a windsurfer too.  He loves going out in challenging sea conditions, rescuing people and dealing with potentially risky situations.  It makes him feel alive and it is why he signed up to the RNLI.

Lets leave laws at a sensible level that give society the possibility to go about and enjoy their lives with a reasonable level of risk rather than try to legislate the heck out of everything that someone else considers dangerous, and if there's some people with real issues, lets put the resources in place to deal with these people rather than blanket legislating everyone.

Does the same apply to mobile phone use behind the wheel?  Penalties increased recently yet I see more and more people on phones than ever before!

Or maybe you’ve just noticed it more?

Noticed it more because it is happening more perhaps?

Poly - I think automatic jailtime for drunk drivers might well make a difference.  I think given the 300 deaths a year each costing the country a million pounds or so then its worth trying.  along with random testing

Re mobile phone use behind the wheel

if anything, I’ve noticed a slight reduction, there doesn’t ‘seem’ to be quite as many people doing it nowadays.

however, #anecdotal.

There are calls from the more vocal an opinionated sorts to ‘ban’ anything that they personally consider to be outside of their comfort zone.

Can we ban straw men?

I think pointing out that 15% of all road fatalities are down to drink driving shows that it's a problem, however that 15% is caused by people who are above the current limit.

I think as with many things if the current law was enforced properly it would be far more effective than some change in the law to "give a better message".

As for what's the argument against it? Reasonable freedom. When I become benevolent dictator I'm banning all private motor vehicles from city centres, and restricting their access to residential areas, as well as mandating minimum exercise levels punishable by brutal public execution as it'll save lives overall. But until then I have to live and let live.

What about when riding bicycles? any moral difference? You could cause a bus full of pensioners to swerve that than mows down a queue of folk waiting for something – bosh – 100 dead.

That bus driver would be in court, pretty sure PCV drivers are trained to go for the objectively least worst option. Sadly that's the bike in this case. If I'm wrong and thats just a myth feel free to ignore that.

FWIW though you can still be done for "drunk in charge". Even in my teens I never rode in that state but the bike did make a good crutch 😛

I think poly is right. Folk drink and drive because they think they'll not be caught. I don't think the threat of a jail sentence would be a deterrent - not when compared to loss of licence for a few years.

Noticed it more because it is happening more perhaps?

No.

"Around 39,000 fixed penalty notices (FPNs) were handed out to drivers between March and December last year compared with 74,000 during the same period in 2016, according to police data.

Since 1st March 2017, drivers caught using a handheld phone behind the wheel face double the penalty points and fine. Now, drivers will receive six penalty points and a £200 fine, whereas previously this would have been only three points on their license and a £100 fine."

https://www.digbybrown.co.uk/solicitors/news-main/has-change-in-law-on-driving-with-mobile-phones-had-an-impact

Poly – I think automatic jailtime for drunk drivers might well make a difference.  I think given the 300 deaths a year each costing the country a million pounds or so then its worth trying.  along with random testing

Whilst I agree about random testing, I'm not at all an advocate of jailtime. For a start it would cost the country far more than a million pounds or so a year, but also a short sentence without any rehabilitation would simply be ineffective. Far better to see a community based sentence that supports re-education and rehabilitation as required.

Around 39,000 fixed penalty notices (FPNs) were handed out to drivers between March and December last year compared with 74,000 during the same period in 2016, according to police data.

Invalid comparison until we know the level of policing though?

“Around 39,000 fixed penalty notices (FPNs) were handed out to drivers between March and December last year compared with 74,000 during the same period in 2016, according to police data.

From the same article - "However, some say the drop is partly due to less police enforcing the law, rather than less drivers adhering to the law."

Where's your evidence then?

Where’s your evidence then?

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/100321/number-of-uk-traffic-police-down-a-third-over-the-last-decade

Plus the only police I ever see on the road these days are the one's holding speed cameras, or attending to an accident or similar, rather than the ones you used to see patrolling and monitoring general driving standards.

Errr! You've posted about police reduction not evidence there's been an increase in the use of mobiles used while driving.