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Why are the Syrian airstrikes being done by planes rather than drones?
Is it because we have a lot more planes and large, easy to find targets as opposed to a surveillance operation that may result in a missile being launched?
They don't have a biscuit tin large enough to charge the batteries at the moment. Wait until they polish off the Fox's Assortment on Boxing Day.
As its an exercise in being seen to be doing something, Sky News needs its shots of Tornado's taking off, with big scary missiles on board, crewed by our brave boys, so that the war pornographers can thwap off to them.
Drones don't tick the same boxes so can't be used to drum up brainless xenophobic jingoism
Because there's little risk (to the pilots) of anyone fighting back.
Because we've been flying our reapers over Syria for ages already running recon missions.
I assume drones dont carry enough weapons to be [s]seen to be a powerful statement of how we will change things[/s] effective
Apparently our strikes were the first to hit IS oil supplies!
I find some of the statements made about this conflict really dubious, is there actually ANY reliable source of information on whose doing what?
Apparently our strikes were the first to hit IS oil supplies!I find some of the statements made about this conflict really dubious
If true, it's certainly rather odd.
bloke on R4 last night: our airstrikes were not the first to target the oil fields.
different bloke on R4 this morning: our airstrikes were the first to target the oil fields.
"BBC R4 spouting shit" shocker.
They are using drones too.
Drones do a lot of reconnaissance, its common to have drones circling an area spotting targets / gathering intelligence and then scramble the jets. Drones are slow and carry few weapons. Jets are fast and carry more / bigger weapons. Drones are cheap. Jets are expensive and risk pilots,
[quote=ps44 opined]"BBC R4 spouting shit" shocker.
When did radio 4 become responsible for the guests on different shows contradicting each other?
NY times suggests 'Murica been bombing oil fields since mid November.
When they invited them on.
As well as above.
Possibly a rules of engagement issue, pilots can fully identify the target.
We definitely aren't the fist to hit oil fields, but the 'allies' have changed tack recently and this is now part of Operation Tidal Wave II.
Drones are better able to identify targets than fast jets. Loitering at 35,000ft and 100mph with little threat gives you a lot more time to assess this situation than hurtling along in a Tornado with every local throwing sticks at you. 'If' special forces were in country marking the targets then that changes a bit.
On the other hand, the largest weapon our drones have are Hellfires so not ideal for the application. Give it time though.....
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People seem more squeamish about drones, offends our sense of sportingness. Seems pretty daft as by most accounts they're safer for civilians etc. I think maybe more legitimately there's concerns about it being more abstract and operators being desensitised by the lack of connection and risk.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/18/life-as-a-drone-pilot-creech-air-force-base-nevada
But tbf if someone blew up my family I don't think I'd be too fussed whether it was a drone or a jet.
I think binners has it. The politicians seem to think the public wants to see Tornados loaded with tonnes of death hurtling down the runway with flaming afterburners.
Plus, manned jets can carry more death than drones.
Sky News needs its shots of Tornado's taking off, with big scary missiles on board, crewed by our brave boys, so that the war pornographers can thwap off to them.
I'll add to what binners posted above
The [i]independant[/i] media is provided images that promote a strong emotional response such as our brave airmen climbing into/taking off in fast jets (there is zero bravery in their current role) , images of faceless grey drones piloted by geeks sitting in chairs 9000miles away do not engender reverence from the public, along with the above we are constantly bombarded by soundbites informing the viewer that " our prayers and thoughts are extended to the brave families and children of the brave airmen….(for gawds sake don't forget to mention the ****in brave children!). Errrh?…….they're not on my part…prayer does absolutely **** all and [i]my[/i] thoughts are with those caught up in the conflict due to being born in the wrong country in the wrong era and believing in the wrong god.
The more i hear of the current situation (say that in a northern irish accent - amusing for those in the know) the more I'm developing a disdainful permanent sneer across my face.
****ers…the lot of them
The politicians seem to think the public wants to see Tornados loaded with tonnes of death hurtling down the runway with flaming afterburners.
Not just political capital though - think about how rubbish Top Gun would have been if it had featured pilotless drones...
you do get the feeling that the uk press felt "left out" because we weren't bombing Syria.
(there is zero bravery in their current role)
You can **** right off
End of the day it comes down to using the right tool for the job. ITV news on Wednesday had clear footage of US A-10s attacking positions in support of Kurdish troops.
I thought they'd planned to retire the A-10 after the last conflict, however as that was so recent I guess a minor delay won't make that much difference
ITV news on Wednesday had clear footage of US A-10s attacking positions in support of Kurdish troops.
Which is great if those Kurds were freeing Kurds or Shias from Sunni tyranny.
I suspect they weren't. I suspect they were helping Kurds take over Sunni areas with all the repercussions that has.
Was reported that they were fighting ISIL.
I also though the A-10 was due for retirement, but turns out that the US don't have much new that performs better in the ground attack role, so it is A-10s and C-130 gunships for now.
Was reported that they were fighting ISIL.
Yes, but we don't know if ISIL were protecting Sunnis or enslaving Kurds/Shias that that point.
Will do dave [img] 
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(there is zero bravery in their current role)
I suspect there is a moderate amount of bravery in their role, misguided or otherwise. I certainly wouldn't relish the thought of flying a tin box of rapidly reciprocating parts with two continuous controlled explosions going on inside them over ISIS territory. I wonder where SAR would come from if they end up ejecting over Syria? Now THERE would be a 'brave' role...
there is zero bravery in their current role)
Tell that to the Jordanian pilot's family
I'm all for them hitting the oil fields to cut of their finance channel..
That'll definitely stop them from affording a couple of AKs and a bag of fertilizer...
oh wait...
The USAF tried to retire the a-10 but congress blocked it, much to the armies relief as it's by far the best CAS aircraft.
think about how rubbish Top Gun would have been if it had featured pilotless drones...
The noise of the gun alone will be enough to send folk scurrying back to their caves!
Is my mind playing tricks on me or did I see cockpit cam from Russian jets attacking oil fields and tankers last week?
I'm not sure but the site "global security" seems to have updates directly from the MOD/DOD so cutting out the political/media BS.
3 December 2015
British forces have continued to conduct air operations in the fight against Daesh
Latest update
Following the vote in the House of Commons last night, Royal Air Force Tornado GR4 aircraft flew their first offensive operation against Daesh terrorist targets inside Syria.
The mainstay of Daesh's financial income is derived from exploitation of a number of oilfields that they hold. These are overwhelmingly located in Daesh's heartlands in eastern Syria. Several of these oilfields have already been effectively targeted by other coalition partners; RAF aircraft and precision weaponry are well suited to attacking, with low collateral risk, this type of target.
Overnight, RAF Tornado GR4s, supported by a Voyager air refuelling tanker and a Reaper, and operating in conjunction with other coalition aircraft, employed Paveway IV guided bombs to conduct strikes against six targets within the extensive oilfield at Omar, 35 miles inside Syria's eastern border with Iraq. The Omar oilfield is one of the largest and most important to Daesh's financial operations, and represents over 10% of their potential income from oil. Carefully selected elements of the oilfield infrastructure were targeted, ensuring the strikes will have a significant impact on Daesh's ability to extract the oil to fund their terrorism.
Coalition air operations have already degraded Daesh's front-line military capabilities and have assisted the Iraqi ground forces in liberating some 30% of the territory that the terrorists initially seized in that country during the summer of 2014. By extending RAF offensive operations into Syria, our aircraft are now able to help dismantle the means by which Daesh plan, direct and sustain their campaign of terror.
Before our aircrew conducted their attacks, as is normal they used the aircraft's advanced sensors to confirm that no civilians were in the proximity of the targets, who might be placed at risk. Our initial analysis of the operation indicates that the strikes were successful.
Is my mind playing tricks on me or did I see cockpit cam from Russian jets attacking oil fields and tankers last week?
No mind games, Russians have been attacking Oil fields. No coincidence they have been publisizing Turkish purchases of cheap oil from IS either.
they used the aircraft's advanced sensors to confirm that no civilians were in the proximity of the targets
That is a damned impressive sensor that can distinguish civilians from 'bad guys'
[quote=natrix said]
That is a damned impressive sensor that can distinguish civilians from 'bad guys'
It's highly classified.
The good guys will have had their leaflets through well in advance anyway, and will have retired to a safe distance to read books about democracy and multiculturalism
How do you bomb a oil well without making it blow up, or unusable in the future?
This is where I would have thought it would make absolute sense to send some ground troops in with a key to turn the well off?
It's highly classified.
Probably in the same file as the one on the Iraq WMDs.............
That is a damned impressive sensor that can distinguish civilians from 'bad guys'
I've a pretty good idea how it works. It has a high resolution camera with face recognition technology, it then runs the images through an algorithm that goes something like...
1. Is the skin colour brown or white?
2. If brown, is a beard present?
3. If yes, bombs away!
natrix - MemberThat is a damned impressive sensor that can distinguish civilians from 'bad guys'
it's a camera.
thousands of miles away, someone is watching the live-feed, trying to measure beard-length from the screen with a tape measure.
edit: it appears dazh and i have achieved mind-meld.
@Funky from what I understand they are atacking refinery, storage facilities and transport trucks. Those with experience will be able to tell from arial photograpghs which parts of the facility to attack.
So are these civilian children or terrorists ? syrian observatory for human rights says since Jan this year 1,100 children have been trained as Jihadists with at least 50 of them killed whilst fighting
[url= http://www.bfmtv.com/international/comment-daesh-prepare-ses-generations-futures-934205.html ]BFM[/url]
dazhI've a pretty good idea how it works. It has a high resolution camera with face recognition technology, it then runs the images through an algorithm that goes something like...
1. Is the skin colour brown or white?
2. If brown, is a beard present?
3. If yes, bombs away!
ahwilesthousands of miles away, someone is watching the live-feed, trying to measure beard-length from the screen with a tape measure.
You both have fanciful ideas and seem prone to over complicating things.
Military aged male? Check. Good to go!
Female holding a [s]baguette[/s] RPG? Good to go.
Dwarf insurgents engaged in hand holding circular dance maneuvers? Clear to engage.
Edited due to narrowness.
Military aged male? good to go!
Far roo narrow, many women actively involved in recruiting and planning attacks plus kids as above, see my link the photo comes from IS propoganda
I assume drones dont carry enough weapons
See http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34973203
"Using jets allows more missiles to be used on a single mission,"
That is a damned impressive sensor that can distinguish civilians from 'bad guys'
Not really .... the bad guys always wear black shirts don't they? Or is that just in cowboy fillums?
....Far roo narrow, many women actively involved in recruiting and planning attacks plus kids as above
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Jam - radio 4 last night said they were going for well heads.... Of course who's to say that's true
How do you bomb a oil well without making it blow up, or unusable in the future?
Quite often oil wells are running on artificial lift (i.e you're pulling the oil out of the ground using pumps etc). Take away this and it'll just stay in the ground.
Main reason is how many weapons they can take with them and the speed of action. A bombing strike will usually be coordinated with intelligence being collected by drones and satellite as a lot of targets are constantly in flux.
The missiles / Laser Guided Bombs they are carrying weigh around 50kg. A drone can only carry a couple of these whilst a Tornado can carry usually around 10 coupled with other defensive armaments on board.
Being able to strike 10 targets at a time will have a greater impact on derailing the movements of ISIS targets than 1 or 2 at a time.
The missiles / Laser Guided Bombs they are carrying weigh around 50kg.
230kg for a Paveway IV
Was thinking more of Brimstone which is what they are mainly using on the Tornados.
LHS - MemberWas thinking more of Brimstone which is what they are mainly using on the Tornados.
Dude, they claim they're going to avoid using them on civilians but they can't even avoid using them on their own planes? That's jacked up.
I don't understand that last comment.
They used these..
Paveway IV is an advanced and highly accurate weapon that provides the RAF’s strike force with a state-of-the-art precision guided bombing capability. Manufactured by Raytheon Systems Ltd, UK, Paveway IV entered into Service in November 2008. Paveway IV will become the backbone of the RAF’s Air-to Surface bombing capability and it will replace the Paveway II and Enhanced Paveway II weapon systems as well as the 1000lb unguided general purpose bomb. Equipped with the latest Inertial Navigation and Global Positioning System technology and a 500lb warhead, Paveway IV provides a low-cost, all-weather, 24-hour precision bombing capability able to defeat the majority of general-purpose targets.Paveway IV weapon detonating in airburst mode Paveway IV significantly increases the RAF’s capability to deliver precision effects matched to the target set. The weapon is cockpit-programmable and allows the aircrew to select weapon impact angle, attack direction and fuzing mode to detonate in airburst, impact or post-impact delay modes. The fuze minimizes collateral damage through the ability to detonate the weapon when buried or partially buried, and is fitted with a ‘Late-Arm’ safety functionality that will not allow an off-course munition to arm. The warhead is also designed to meet the latest requirements of NATO Insensitive Munition safety policy.
The increased accuracy of the system allows for a warhead half the size of the earlier Paveway weapons. The lighter Paveway IV’s provides greater flexibility giving the potential for a single aircraft to carry more weapons and so strike multiple targets in a single pass. The weapon can be reprogrammed with target data by the aircrew while airborne by using data from on-board sensors or from Forward Air Controllers on the ground. Paveway IV also retains the legacy laser guidance capability of its predecessors.
Paveway IV computer graphic illustration
Other improvements over older weapons include less drag, greater accuracy, higher resistance to GPS jamming, better supportability, zero maintenance, lower cost and improved safety signatures. The weapon went straight onto an operational footing after its introduction into service being carried by Harrier GR9 in Afghanistan. It was later integrated onto Tornado GR4 with outstanding success on missions in both Afghanistan and Libya. Integration onto Typhoon F2 is underway and Paveway IV is also a candidate weapon for integration onto Joint Combat Aircraft.
Photography:
Tornado GR4 carrying Qty 5 Paveway IV weapons.
Paveway IV weapon detonating in airburst mode.
Dude, they claim they're going to avoid using them on civilians but they can't even avoid using them on their own planes? That's jacked up.
😀
I don't understand that last comment.
🙁
go back and re-read it...
Those brimstones cost 150k each, thats a few teachers/nurses/plod per bang so i hope they keep em for special occasions.
thats a few teachers/nurses/plod per bang
Well, if you only want to employ them for a year.
How do you bomb a oil well without making it blow up, or unusable in the future?
Do you not recall the images of the oilfields alight in the last Gulf War?
The mainstay of Daesh's financial income is derived from exploitation of a number of oilfields that they hold. These are overwhelmingly located in Daesh's heartlands in eastern Syria.
Who's buying the oil? Assuming it's foreign cash from somewhere.
Who's buying the oil? Assuming it's foreign cash from somewhere.
Iraqis
Turkey - fiercely denied but been detailed accusations for over 12 months
Assad - on the basis IS back off from attacking the government
Also Daesh ceased over $500m in cash from the Mosul central bank
Anyone else noticed that our own fuel prices have been rather reasonable at the pump lately?
crashtestmonkey - Member
Dude, they claim they're going to avoid using them on civilians but they can't even avoid using them on their own planes? That's jacked up.I don't understand that last comment.
go back and re-read it...
It still doesn't make sense.
Saudi is in meltdown, price fixing through opec has fallen apart and there all (including russia) swamping the market. I'm not sure who exactly is driving that but it isnt IS.
I've just moved my pension which is the only thing I have apart from the roof over my head worth a hoot out of fossil fuels as I tthink we're done with the stuff at least in historical quantities.
North wind has made the most intelligent comment on this thread. As a bonus it was funny and has shown up the chumps.
I assume jambalaya is summoning his "Northwind, what are you talking about?" post now.
Nah, whilst others got their numbers wrong the basic answer to the question is tornados can carry more weight than reapers. They (MOD) are also going to extra ordinary lengths to minimise innocent casualties.
What extra are they doing?
North wind has made the most intelligent comment on this thread. As a bonus it was funny and has shown up the chumps.
Northwind was referring to a Turkish F16 deliberately shooting down a Russian SU24 with Air-to-air munitions. This somehow prooves that RAF Tornados crews using ground-attack munitions will accidentally do likewise.
He has certainly identified some chumps, but they are not the ones you think.
The Guardian is reporting we are using Hurricanes!
The Ministry of Defence confirmed that oilfields in the country were targeted by two Typhoons and two Hurricanes, continuing the strategy of attempting to cut off the terrorist group’s access to sources of funding.More details soon...
MOD statement...
Latest update
Daesh terrorists have again been struck by Royal Air Force aircraft, with Typhoon fighters flying their first missions over Syria and Iraq.
During the evening of Friday 4 December, Tornado GR4s and Typhoon FGR4s, based at RAF Akrotiri, conducted a further series of strikes on targets in the very large Daesh-controlled oilfield at Omar in eastern Syria. As with the attacks on 3 December which immediately followed the Parliamentary decision to extend offensive air operations to Syrian airspace, the Tornados and Typhoons used Paveway IV guided bombs to hit wellheads, thus cutting off the terrorists’ oil revenue at the very source. Eight attacks were carried out, and early reports suggest that they were successful. Our aircraft then remained on patrol to collect intelligence on possible terrorist positions and be ready to strike any further targets that might be identified in eastern Syria or western Iraq.
The Typhoons and the Tornados received vital support from an RAF Voyager air refuelling tanker during their missions. At the same time, an RAF Reaper provided close air support to Kurdish security forces in north-west Iraq as they continue to drive back Daesh after defeating the terrorists at Sinjar. A Daesh truck-bomb was identified south of Sinjar, and the Reaper’s crew were able to destroy it by means of a direct hit from a Hellfire missile.
Whilst the Tornados, Typhoons and Reapers are able to conduct invaluable tactical reconnaissance, a large percentage of the coalition’s strategic surveillance capability is provided by the RAF’s Sentinel and Air Seeker aircraft. Hercules transports also play a key role in ensuring the logistic support of the UK forces deployed on Operation Shader, especially the military training teams in Iraq, who are working with other coalition partners to train and equip the Iraqi security forces as they continue to build their strength to defeat Daesh on the ground.
Duffer - MemberNorthwind was referring to a Turkish F16 deliberately shooting down a Russian SU24 with Air-to-air munitions. This somehow prooves that RAF Tornados crews using ground-attack munitions will accidentally do likewise.
He has certainly identified some chumps, but they are not the ones you think.
Yeah, you know what? This is exactly 100% wrong. Not that surprising- man admits to not understanding post then tries to explain it. Makes the comment about chumps pretty ironic though eh?
I thought they'd planned to retire the A-10 after the last conflict, however as that was so recent I guess a minor delay won't make that much difference
The brass in charge of using A-10's hate them, they're obsessed with the idea of using fast jets in all operational rôles, so they've tried their damnedest to get rid of them, shuffling them into squadrons operated by the Air National Guard.
Great idea, protect the homeland by giving the same people responsible for the Kent State University massacre ground attack jets!
Anyway, it seems that people who actually have a clue have realised that the Warthog is the perfect aircraft for ground attack/close support; oddly enough, the very purpose it was designed for.
Of course, that does mean the plane has to be flown at relatively low altitude, not up at 20,000ft, where identifying clear national markings on armoured vehicles to avoid friendly-fire incidents is rendered ineffective, resulting in an A-10 opening fire on a clearly marked British armoured vehicle, for which incident the crew have never been allowed to answer questions or apologise.
Let's hope the Yanks might have learned a few lessons.
Cynical, moi?
ssume jambalaya is summoning his "Northwind, what are you talking
Actually its more like @munro what on earth are you speaking about ?
Drones are the future. Cost effective and even with todays hugely expensive jets its the pilot which is the most costly / hard to replace. Aside from significant expenditure on Drones there is lots of money being spent on other battlefield robots. Its an ironic twost on the use by Islamists of suicide bombers, we are doing all we can to protect our troops by making "intelligent" weapons which destroy themselves