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There's probably not a simple answer to this, but if Airports have only got the staff to deal with 'X' amount of flights, then why are 'Y' amount of flights booked?
• Airports promising they can deal with it when the can't?
• Airline forcing airports to honour slot agreements?
• Combination of both?
Got to be better for everyone if the flights weren't put on in the first place than cancel at the last moment. At the minute airline and airports are getting a slating and holidays are being wrecked.
Maybe there is some kind of pandemic in the world at the moment meaning large numbers of staff being off sick at short notice? 🤷
Dublin airport, who’ve been really bad, say they often don’t know how short of staff they’re going to be on security until the start of the day at 04.00 when people don’t turn up and then it all falls apart as the day progresses.
There was also an interview with an airport security worker in the guardian a few weeks back - basically it’s a crappy job and management don’t treat them well so coming out of lockdown recruitment has been poor.
There's a few parts to this.
First up, an airport isn't a single homogenous organisation. There's the security section, the baggage handling section , the ground staff who get the planes out, Air Traffic Control (which isn't even the airport). A fair few of them are subcontracted, too - so security staff and baggage handling may not be the airport itself
So in theory they can have the ground staff to get the planes out, but not the security staff to get passengers in the door; or the security staff to get people in, and ground staff to get the planes moving, but no baggage handlers to load the bags onto the plane. And so on.
• Airline forcing airports to honour slot agreements?
I thought it was the reverse, particularly at in-demand airports like Heathrow. If airlines don't use (something like) 80% of a slot over a month, they may have to give it back - and they've spent tens of millions buying it.
Maybe there is some kind of pandemic in the world at the moment
I think you're mistaking this year for last.
We got covid done, didn't you get the memo?
A chap who works at LBA told me along side absence the issue is they've recruited to 20% higher than pre covid levels to cover absence but need dbs checks which are taking months (longer) to come back.
People are over worked to cover absence, so get sick etc.
How much of this is true of course is anyone's guess.
Dublin airport, who’ve been really bad, say they often don’t know how short of staff they’re going to be on security until the start of the day at 04.00 when people don’t turn up and then it all falls apart as the day progresses.
I'm watching this with interest. I see the gov't minister for transport is having a meeting with Dublin Airport to find out what on gods green earth is going on. Also amusing that the news says "up to 50,000 passengers were expected to pass through Dublin Airport today" - which really isn't that many compared to the really big airports!
Maybe there is some kind of pandemic in the world at the moment meaning large numbers of staff being off sick at short notice? 🤷
Covid is over (according to our Government) but the shortage of staff who were laid off during Covid continues so may be a good idea to cut back on flights
Mind you it would probably help if people weren’t such complete and utter morons and actually got their stuff in order when queuing for security rather than being surprised they have to take jackets off etc etc when they get to the X-ray machine . (Rant over)
Airlines and airports laid off, furloughed and generally treated staff badly compared to many other industries during the pandemic. They are now short staffed and struggling to recruit, go figure. The staff left are overworked and demoralised. Couple this with airlines and airports general dreadful customer service and you get chaos.
Basic levels of services need to be regulated which is not something an individual country can effectively do. If we were part of a bigger bloc, say like the EU We'd have more clout but we gave that up for the mirage of taking back control.
If we were part of a bigger bloc, say like the EU We’d have more clout but we gave that up for the mirage of taking back control.
I see the gov’t minister for transport is having a meeting with Dublin Airport to find out what on gods green earth is going on.
Yep, absolutely its a Brexit thing. Not happening in the EU at all.
A multitude of factors, here goes:
The company that I work for is fairly necessary for most aircraft in the UK to move. We have an ageing workforce with a possible retirement age of 55. During COVID the (mis) management over 100 new recruits were made redundant. Now COVID has come to an end those capable of retiring, are. With no one to replace them at the bottom. Any new recruit takes a minimum of 24 months to get trained (and years to be ‘fully’ trained). You can see where this is going.
For every one front line staff we have 6 managers/non essential staff. In 2003 this was 3 for every 1 frontline staff. They all retained their jobs during COVID.
We’ve a record number of people on long term sick.
We’re also seeing employees rip the piss out of any minor illness.
The start of COVID went hand in hand with COP26, where the airline industry where seen as the bad guys. The government didn’t want to associate itself with any additional funding of an industry so under the limelight.
The sheer hypocrisy of those going on holidays whinging about delays & cancellations (albeit the press mostly) 18 months earlier would scoff at getting on a plane packed full of people. Yet they think the aviation industry can just turn on its heels and provide an amazing service. It can’t. It’s been royally ****ed over by mis management & government agenda.
It's the three month dbs check that is now rate-limiting for recruitment, staff absence doesn't help, but the speed of return caught the airports napping. when son2 was recruited to LHR, it took an age to gain security clearance. That will not have changed post pandemic.
Lots of Airlines and even more Airports were caught seriously by surprise by a lack of available resource. They both assumed that when they needed to ramp up, that a proportion of the sectors laid off staff would be available for hire, thus negating the need for substantial background checks in the short term and slowly backfilling with new staff as the season ramped up. They were wrong. The sector recovered fast, the staff had already moved on and were reluctant to return to an industry still recovering and which had hurt them so badly. They misjudged the speed of recovery and misread the people that had worked for them, all the while the Airlines continued to sell every available seat as through nothing were or could possibly go wrong. One way or another, it'll all be sorted by September.
I can see and have read that there are lots of reasons for the disruption.
But most of these issues have been know for a long time now, so why are the flights still being offered and in ever greater numbers.
There may well be increased demand from customers*, but as most business know you are better not to offer what you can't deliver than let people down.
but the speed of return caught the airports napping.
But who authorised the increased flights, can't the airports just no, can't deal with them right now.
Sorry - not getting at anyone! Just seems like someone needs to put the brakes on.
*not from me, I've only done one return flight in the last 20 years! 🙂
Been through Manchester twice, Dublin and Madrid in the last 10 days. No major issues at Manchester, especially security - breezed through T3 both times. Bigger queues at the bars. Madrid was ok - big queue for passport checks, the EU folk got a fast track queue which made me chuckle. Covid checks were beyond pointless. Dublin Airport was horrible. 1.5 hr queue to get into the security check area which was probably the most half arsed attempt at check I’ve ever seen. Still, meant the terminal was quiet so got a last couple of Guinness in before the flight.
In a nutshell, unless you really like a good queue - wouldn’t recommend.
RM.
But who authorised the increased flights, can’t the airports just no, can’t deal with them right now.
You're coming at this the wrong way around. It's that no one thought or wanted to restrict them. The slots and scheduling were likely agreed in principal late last year and are further hardened 8-12 weeks out from the flight departure time. In February, no one knew there would be this level of problem. By the time we got here, no one wants to cancel anything, (not the people, not the airlines, no one. so they're ALL bodging it, trying to get as much and as many through the system in the available time, using all the "spare" capacity as it comes around.
Maybe there is some kind of pandemic in the world at the moment meaning large numbers of staff being off sick at short notice?
They laid of 10,000s two years ago. They have been unable to recruit the same number back, so don't have the man power to handle the airports at normal (pre-pandemic) capacity.
There may well be increased demand from customers*, but as most business know you are better not to offer what you can’t deliver than let people down.
They may know that, but most businesses seem happy to ignore it!
Airlines and airports laid off, furloughed and generally treated staff badly compared to many other industries during the pandemic. They are now short staffed and struggling to recruit, go figure.
Know a few contacts in the aiports/airlines. They are basically saying its a better paid job to be working in the restaurant inside the terminal rather than being the security on the front so unsurprisingly they are struggling to recruit.
The race to the bottom has already started.
Also worth remembering it is half term and the jubilee week, so even less staff availability, those airline companies struggling with flights are those who have been slashing staffs salaries and numbers, same with support contracts with maintainers, suppliers, etc, so have a very small buffer zone between running the service, and what they're doing now.
As for DBS checks, they're not as bad as they used to be when the whole anyone who works with children needed security checks, it's just nobody really chases up applications, a lot of these are just basic check, so not exactly an onerous process.
No major issues at Manchester, especially security – breezed through T3 both times.
We were at T2 MCR 3 hrs early for a 6am flight on Saturday. We made it to the gate 15 mins before take off due to q's at check in and security. But then take off was delayed for 50 minutes because a load of bags got lost. Then when we landed we sat on the coach waiting for a few people, but it turns out their bags never showed up so the coach left without them. I don't know what the outcome for them was. Bit of a shambles really
I flew out from LHR into SIN leaving Saturday just before noon. Got there 3.5 hours early and apart from a 10 minute queue on the M4 spur it was ok. The queue for half term in Turkey looked pretty brutal though.
They may know that, but most businesses seem happy to ignore it!
EasyJet were In the news last week for cancelling 200 flights this week.
But we also have things like this to contend with, one drunk dude could have a massive knock on effect with forward delays when you take into account staff shortages...
We transferred at Toronto and it was a total poo-show. We were only allowed off the plane as we had a transfer. All the other people just had to sit there and wait until Customs / Security had cleared down. The daft thing was that there were a million seemingly needless checks and Covid testing (hey Canada, we already have Covid here ;)). If they'd have just dropped all the random passport checks the airport would probably be much clearer. We also only flew with carry-on luggage as had heard that the checked bag situation was a bit of a disaster.
Conversely Manchester was straight forward in both directions.
We travelled often during covid open season between lockdowns and was a great experience as no one else was travelling. Now everyone is back travelling not enough airport staff to do security, gates, long stay bus, baggage and basically everything.
Not a unique UK problem either as just got back from Greece and staff all in training leading to slow queues and missed slots. Planning summer break in UK after latest experience.
I think you’re mistaking this year for last.
We got covid done, didn’t you get the memo?
You do realise this is happening in places other than the U.K., don’t you? It’s happening in North America, in Europe, and quite possibly other parts of the world. Certainly I’m seeing news reports on Flipboard about airport chaos happening elsewhere.
This doesn’t help in America either…
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/restrictions-place-time-covid-cases-high/story?id=84777860
2500 flights cancelled by US airlines over the last weekend with Memorial Day. 400 cancelled and 2400 delayed on Memorial Day alone (yesterday)
Yep, absolutely its a Brexit thing (+1)
The sector recovered fast, the staff had already moved on and were reluctant to return to an industry still recovering and which had hurt them so badly.
Who'd have thought that treating people badly would have consequences?
Had to come over to Ireland this week for a project (thanks Brexit), I took the boat my colleagues flew. They're getting in a day late.
I'm no expert but I assume that they are also worried that if they just go crazy recruiting right now they will have maximum staff just in time for a winter downturn coupled with a cost of living crisis and (probably) higher Covid rates again, meaning they will have the exact opposite problem of their current one, come November.
The more unpleasant or expensive it is to fly the better. It's unsustainable etc. Let's hope it gets worse.
I think you’re mistaking this year for last.
We got covid done, didn’t you get the memo?
You do realise this is happening in places other than the U.K., don’t you?
Well yes but obviously "we got covid done then they got covid done too" isn't quite as catchy and drum bangy so I just went with we in a rather broad sense.
One of our team is currently stuck at an airport in Morocco waiting for a long delayed flight home. If he was expecting sympathy when he posted on the team WhatsApp he must have been disappointed 🤣
It’s hardly a surprise that an industry that sacked anyone it could during the pandemic is struggling to recruit afterwards. Reap what you sow springs to mind.
It might be airport specific. I flew out of LBA to Barcelona 2.5 weeks ago. LBA was horrendous. Only 2 security scanning lanes open, 2+ hr queues out of the door, people missing flights etc. Barcelona for the return flight was a breeze, baggage dropped and through security in 15 minutes. I flew out of Newcastle on Saturday morning (half term, jubilee week, so expecting it to be horrendous), paid for Fast Track as had the kids with me, needn't have bothered. Puts me off LBA even though it's my closest airport.
The more unpleasant or expensive it is to fly the better. It’s unsustainable etc. Let’s hope it gets worse.
Indeed. While the push to escape all-things Jubilee is understandable, climate change isn't licked because the news isn't talking about it.
I live in Dublin and have flown twice in the last couple of months, first time was from T2 (Aer Lingus terminal) at 3.30pm on a Sunday - breezed through security in about 15mins, albeit i didn't have bags to drop.
Second time was for a 7am flight from T1. We had to queue outside the airport (we were there at 4.30am as recommended) but we were let in pretty quickly, i had a bike bag to drop but used the self service machines and dropped at oversize baggage. The queue for security snaked all the way through departures and it took us 40mins to get through, which i was surprised about as thought it would be longer - but the airport seemed to have several x-ray machines working and were pretty efficient.
It just seems to have got worse in the last couple of weeks, i had a mate fly out on a 12pm flight and it took him 2hours to get through T2 security, my GF is flying to Nice this week and is not looking forward to it!
We are off to the UK in July......we are getting the Ferry!
It's a bit of a perfect storm at the moment.
An airport like Heathrow has 50,000+ staff, all working for different companies.
Heathrow probably employs 1000 directly, then contracts centralised services like Wheelchairs and security to private companies.
Checkin and baggage handling is generally the airline staff, but sometimes this is outsourced to Handling agents, who cover multiple airlines.
No company likes to say "No we cant cover our contract" so they all muddle on.
An aircraft is delayed by 3 hours waiting for handling. It will then be 3 hours late for its next flight too (At Least!) which ends up with crew going out of hours and getting stuck somewhere, and flights being cancelled passengers rebooked, put in hotels, etc.
Add in a bad weather day and it all just snowballs very quickly.
Lack of staff, low staff morale, new inexperienced staff, extra work caused by delays........... And repeat.
Even so, the vast majority of flights are still going, and on time too. I flew to Istanbul and back yesterday. We were full both ways, all baggage sorted, left on time, landed back 30 minutes early.
It is getting better, we are recruiting like mad and whilst summer will be busy (as it always is) it should just be a normal summer.
We came in to Heathrow T3 on Saturday just after 8pm and breezed through Passport control as they have so many auto machines now that walking through the queue snake slows everyone down so that when we got to the front we just had to walk to a machine and wait for the person using it to clear. Probably then waited half hour for luggage to arrive, but we were on a full double decker Airbus so there is quite a bit of luggage to get through the system.
Flying out had also been a breeze getting through security.
Who’d have thought that treating people badly would have consequences?
Working in a customer facing retail job 15 years ago was bad enough for me, and that was with half decent managers and company, it must be a utter nightmare to do it nowadays. No wonder people don’t want to do it when you are treated poorly by your employer, your manager and a lot of customers for very little reward or benefits.
We transferred at Toronto and it was a total poo-show. We were only allowed off the plane as we had a transfer.
If anyone's thinking of passing through Toronto, I cannot repeat enough - DON'T GO!! Every single person I know who's been through there in the last 2 months has had an awful experience. When the plane lands, they're keeping people on the plane for 1-2 hours because "there isn't capacity in the terminal"; it's then taking 2-3 hours to get through the terminal through the various checks, immigration, baggage hall etc.
And the Canadian attitude to consumer rights means it ain't gonna be fixed in the near future - it's been this way for a couple of months and no signs of improvement.
Landed at MAN at 4pm yesterday and only had to wait an hour for bags so consider myself lucky. No steps for the plane but the Ryanair 737s have integral front steps so again not really an issue. Seeing reports that Jet2 and Tui are telling people to pack some clothes in your carry on as there is a good chance that if you fly from MAN your luggage may not arrive.
Brother has just checked in at Manchester no issues today. Both my sisters flew in and out of Manchester for a long weekend in Jersey a few weeks back, no issues, except both families caught Covid from the travelling.
I'm just not bothering as I can't stand the queue's in normal times. What is a two hour flight can take hours - not my way of starting or finishing a holiday - hate it.
Flew out of Manchester T3 yesterday, security wasn't a problem. In the departure lounge KFC was closed (no food), boots and W.H.Smoths were nothing out of sandwiches etc, the bar that was selling food/drink had a line of about 50 people in it and 2 serving. Once on the plane we were delayed for 2 hours as there were no ground staff to offload the previous passengers bags.
Security queues at LHR T3 this morning were longer than I've ever seen them.
The more unpleasant or expensive it is to fly the better. It’s unsustainable etc. Let’s hope it gets worse.
Can you just confirm for the rest of us that you:
1. Have disabled the air conditioning in your car to discourage long journeys. Actually, you probably shouldn’t even be driving at all with that attitude.
2. Don’t have a gas or an oil boiler.
3. Don’t use the internet (computers use energy too).
4. Don’t eat any out-of-season food.
5. Don’t use ferries.
6. Don’t use diesel trains.
7. Don’t use any short-life medication delivered from outside the UK, and would reject it in future.
8. Don’t use mass-produced electronics.
9. Never eat meat…
10. Have a front lawn, not an off-road parking space.
I could go on but won’t. Unfortunately aviation is part of life and people will need to fly. Those of us who do the driving do it in the most economical way possible (reduced engine taxi, continuous descent profiles, reduced flap landings, taking minimum required fuel etc etc), but there’s always going to be an environmental cost. The goal is to minimise it, but I’m not convinced that never leaving cycling distance of your home town is the answer.
The quickest way to reduce air travel would be to invest in affordable train travel powered by electricity. When you can take a family of 4 to Greece for less than an off-peak advance single ticket to Skegness for one person, you’re going to have a problem.
Hello Flaperon, a response for you. Your attitude is a bit confrontational but I think I can offer you some satisfaction. Sorry for pressing your buttons.
So firstly I meet your conditions 2, 5, 6, 7 and 10.
I live in a house solely heated by fire wood gathered as a by product of already occurring forestry activity. My hot water comes from this source also.
I am a civil engineer who has worked in renewables designing and building hydro electric power schemes up to 1MW capacity. I now work as a forestry engineer - hence the access to firewood, not as easy to achieve for some, so I suggest others go for a passive house.
I don't drive much for my own purposes, just a bit of hillwalking, but don't often need to go far. Six thousand miles a year maybe? Lifelong cycle commuter (until covid made me work from home).
I do use mass produced electronics but as examples my NAD amplifier I bought in 1999, and I have only just replaced my Mesh desktop from 2007 - due to capacitors on the motherboard drying out - I keep computers and laptops going for a long time by using linux.
Guilty of liking a steak. Thinking of going veggy for my fiftieth.
Hope you're making an effort!
With all the slack Waderider is picking up I feel less guilty about my own carbon emissions. Probably averages out to normal between the pair of us. Cheers mate.
Grand, I feel pretty smug. We'll gloss over the big car and the penchant for fillet steaks.
Your attitude is a bit confrontational
Sorry. Entirely my fault - had been awake 36 hours straight and just tested positive for COVID. Again.
Hope you’re making an effort!
Yep. If you disregard the dinosaur-sized carbon footprint of my job I have an EV charged from solar, a heat pump on order, and a willingness to pick an argument with people sitting in their cars with the engine running while they play on their phone / eat their lunch / sleep.
I sometimes wonder how shit people's lives must be to have so many holiibobs at any cost. The stress of travelling/being treated like cattle was bad enough before all this. It just ain't worth it. I suspect it's all a massive keeping up with the Jones' / doing it for Insta exercise.
TBH some people do have shite lives and look forward to a week in Benidorm,where the beer is cheap and the sunshine plentiful.
It's a crappy job. Stressful, shift work, poor management, dealing with the 'general public' i.e. fekkin eejets all day. Usually minimum wage. High staff turnover so low skilled / low experience workforce.
There's certain airports that I won't use any more (Manchester being top of the list). I've found that smaller regional airports with less daily flights seem to be bearing the brunt better. Newcastle is my current favourite, and its actually closer to the family than Manchester.
Unfortunately aviation is part of life and people will need to fly.
I sometimes wonder how shit people’s lives must be to have so many holiibobs at any cost.
There are needs and there are wants. The two do rather get conflated. A lot of business and leisure travel rather blurs that line. In the business world you would hope the last couple of years many organisations have worked out who can be done without travel and the grey line has seen a bit of focus. In the leisure world I see it a bit like meat consumption - we have gone from a society that ate meat as a bit of a luxury maybe once a day or 4 or 5 times a week to an entitlement to have meat as part of the meal package 3 times a day. One foreign holiday every couple of years became annual, then it became 2 or 3 times a year. If it's not expense that drives people away from this model, it'll be inconvenience.
Flaperon's list of 10 objectives there are all pretty reasonable goals. The glaring issue with it is that it implies one would need to absolve yourself of all those sins before needing to consider your air travel 'wants' at number 11. I don't know the science well enough to rank order damage but I'm pretty doubtful air travel slots in at number 11. Does short hop air travel (say Manchester to London or London to Paris) do less damage than a diesel train equivalent?