Airguns and Allotments

They sound like a bunch of a-holes who've just improved your life by kicking you out of the group...

Is the land Council owned?

Is the land Council owned?

I think it's actually owned by the church.

Some one will be along shortly with the correct answer but discharging air rifles near or onto public highways is a no no.

You could go big and sow the allotments with landmines to ‘deal with the pigeons’ and just explain that you were simply embracing their philosophy.

It's not automatically legal to shoot pigeons.  You certainly couldn't do it in your garden just because you don't like them! I used to shoot a lot of woodpigeons with a shotgun over decoys on farmland to protect crops.  They are a serious agricultural pest, but the law is quite strict.  You have to understand and abide by the terms of the Natural England 'general licence' (or Scottish/Welsh/NI eqiv). It is not necessary to apply for an individual licence, but you most definitely need to demonstrate understanding of it and compliance if challenged.

You can legally do it to protect crops, protect public health etc. but only if non lethal means are not viable. There are also cruelty offences under the wildlife and countryside act if it is bodged or not done skillfully and humanely.  You most definitely have to have the landowners permission to shoot! Not having it means you are guilty of armed trespass (an aggravated trespass offence) and probably other firearms offences, too,

They sound like a right bunch of bellends.  Your police wildlife protection officer might be interested!

Some one will be along shortly with the correct answer but discharging air rifles near or onto public highways is a no no.

Not automatically

"In England & Wales it is an offence without lawful authority or reasonable excuse to
discharge any firearm within fifty feet of the centre of a highway which consists of
or comprises a carriageway, and in consequence a user of the carriageway is
injured, interrupted or endangered. [Section 161(2) of the Highways Act 1980 as
amended]. It is important to remember that the discharge of a firearm is not
prohibited in itself. It must also be proved that there was an injury, or that
someone’s passage was interrupted or interfered with e.g. they have been forced to
make a detour"

It's the land owners gift to allow shooting. If you don't have permission it's armed trespass.

If they have permission then they are fine to do as they like so long as they don't cause alarm or interruption to journey on the public highway. Roughly translated that means anyone travelling on a right of way either around or through the land should not feel threatened or disrupt their journey. You can shoot right up to a highway so long as the above conditions are met. Pellets leaving the boundary are absolutely a firearms offence.

Some one will be along shortly with the correct answer but discharging air rifles near or onto public highways is a no no.

I guess they'd argue that it's not being done near the road that runs out front or near the river with a park on the other side, but who knows what they do.
Being a private allotment with members, they would argue that it's not a public place.

It’s the land owners gift to allow shooting. If you don’t have permission it’s armed trespass.

I thought that it's not just down to the landowner but also any tenant of the land needs to give permission too.

I think it’s just the landowner. Also when shorting needs to be over a certain distance from the nearest road. Can’t remember of the top of my head but have the relevant info at home so can update later.

See someone will be along with the correct ans.
So if I'm on said allotment on a walkway to my plot and someone took a pot shot in my general direction?
I wonder if they shoot other birds sparrows and starlings can eat pea flowers ECT.

Small scale allotments are better protected by nets I would have assumed.

I thought that it’s not just down to the landowner but also any tenant of the land needs to give permission too.

This is complicated.  A landlord may or may not retain the 'shooting rights' and even lease these to someone other than the tenant, but this typically only covers 'game'.  A tenant, whether or not he holds the shooting rights still has the right to shoot pest species.  So a tenant farmer who doesn't  hold the sporting rights can't shoot pheasants, deer erc. but can shoot rabbits and pigeons (for example) if it's an arable farm (there is actually a legal obligation to do so in the case of rabbits) I think the tenant can allow others to do this on his behalf, but for bird species - crows, pigeon etc the general licence rules still apply.

I would think the tennants rights would come in here.

What happens if grandpa joe brings his 7yo grand daughter to his allotment to pick strawberies and she ends up with a pellet in they eye and permenant brain damage? Tough shit I assume, according to the 'facebook group'?

If that's the case I would honestly call 99 and report it as a firearms offence if you ever see people shooting air guns there.

I'm surprised no-one has commented about possible tampering with badger setts.
What does the landowner have to say about any of this? Can you confirm who the landowner is - you suggested it's possibly church owned.

I’m surprised no-one has commented about possible tampering with badger setts.

I missed that.  If there is evidence, not just hearsay then inform the police wildlife crime officer.  They should take that very seriously if there is evidence.

Just checked:
- You need permission of landowner and occupier (so it could be argued you need permission of everyone in the allotment)
- can’t discharge (no s****ing) within 50 feet of the centre of the nearest public highway(even if firing away from highway)
- all pellets must remain within boundary of land you have permission to shoot on
(theoretically you can shoot on an allotment if neighbouring plot holders agree but if old Joe next plot along doesn’t like it you can’t have them landing on his plot)
-pellets are a lead alloy so may not be the sort of material you want mixing in with your prize petunias or plums.
-If the person with the rifle has been a naughty boy and has convictions they’re not allowed air rifles (subject to some exemptions in the Firearms Act)
-(most obvious one) it’s an offence to have a loaded firearm in a public place without reasonable excuse. Whether offing a few intimidating dirty pigeons is who knows?
If the allotment was shut to members to do so then could be ok (as long as culling in this manner was allowed), but if other people are there at the same time then that’s a big no-no.

In England
1) an airgun is not a firearm in law.
2) In your own garden it is perfectly legal to shoot an airgun, but the pellets must not leave your land. Even ricochets are techincally a breach.
3) backstop is key, I've done loads of pigeon slaughtering and we set up a wood and foam backstop with a bait - ie a large pile of grain, in front, the pigeons are so dumb the just move into the gap created by the one you just shot. You can’t shoot stock doves, collared doves or turtle doves. Must be pigeon.

How does this apply to allotments?? I guess you could argue your allotment is your own land. EG if shooting from a high point down into the ground with a backstop on your own bit of the allotment, I'd probably do and be happy with safety as long as there is no risk of someone walking across your allotment whilst doing it.. That might be hard to achieve unless you have fences.

So shooting guns willy nilly is illegal then.

Who'd have thought!

1) an airgun is not a firearm in law.

Wrong.

The Firearms Act 1968 defines a firearm as 'a lethal barrelled weapon, as defined under section 57(1B)'.

Section 57(1B) defines a "lethal barrelled weapon" as a "barrelled weapon of any description from which a shot, bullet or other missile, with kinetic energy of more than one joule as measured at the muzzle of the weapon, can be discharged".

An air rifle with a muzzle energy below 12 ft/lbs (around 16 Joules) is very clearly a firearm under the definition of the 1968 firearms act, it is just a type of firearm which is exempt for the need for a certificate under the act.

Above 12 ft/lbs it requires a firearms certificate to possess.

2) In your own garden it is perfectly legal to shoot an airgun,

Not if you’re firing within 50 feet of the centre of the nearest public highway

Not if you’re firing within 50 feet of the centre of the nearest public highway

But only if

'in consequence a user of the carriageway is injured, interrupted or endangered'.

Otherwise it's not illegal (Highways Act 1980).

You certainly couldn’t do it in your garden just because you don’t like them!

Not so sure on that. Used to work with someone who had their own gun club.
On your land "ok'ish" but you have to ensure not pellet leaves your property/ boundary.
Basically the only way to legally/ safely do it is to sniper out the upstairs window down onto the lawn.

Next door uses his air rifle on the garden shooting into his garage where he has targets set up. (Wish could do similar with my recurve bow.

** Just notist the comments above about public highway.

***

The Firearms Act 1968 defines a firearm as ‘a lethal barrelled weapon, as defined under section 57(1B)’.

Again conversation with same person at work strangely a crossbow comes under firearms laws, something about arrow velocity.

Blokeuptheroad has this sown up, almost like this comes up on a weekly basis on AGF and BBS 🤣

Not so sure on that.

I am, 100%.  You can't shoot pigeons in your garden or anywhere else, just because you don't like them. Quite apart from any possible firearms offences, that would be an offence under the wildlife and countryside act. Wild birds are protected, legally by default with a few exemptions covered by general licenses. You can shoot Wood pigeons legally under certain circumstances e.g. crop protection if you can demonstrate non lethal means are not appropriate and you abide by the terms and conditions of the general licence GL42 issued by Natural England.  Most people taking pot shots at woodies on their brassicas in gardens and allotments are entirely ignorant of the GL requirements. They may well get away with it for yonks, but they are on dodgy legal ground if reported.  Technically, they could do it legally if they understood the GL but most don't even know it exists. Ignorance of the law is no defence etc.

Linky

(Similar legislation applies in Scotland, Wales and NI).

3) backstop is key, I’ve done loads of pigeon slaughtering and we set up a wood and foam backstop with a bait – ie a large pile of grain, in front, the pigeons are so dumb the just move into the gap created by the one you just shot.

This is the thing. Is there even any actual point in shooting pigeons on an allotment?
It's not like they're clever enough to vacate the area and never come back, telling all their pigeon mates. Shooting a few wouldn't make a dent anyway.

It says to me that people do it for the sport rather than for any BS claims about benefiting the immediate environment.
Some people just seem to enjoy killing stuff but use the vermin/pest angle to promote their sport.

It says to me that people do it for the sport rather than for any BS claims about benefiting the immediate environment.

Sadly there is a segment of folk that think that way. I hope they're at least eating them and not just binning them.

This is the thing. Is there even any actual point in shooting pigeons on an allotment?
It’s not like they’re clever enough to vacate the area and never come back, telling all their pigeon mates. Shooting a few wouldn’t make a dent anyway.

Weirdly enough my Dad was telling me last night that he's eradicated the pigeons from his back garden since he shot a few. (It's well within 50m of a public highway, too, so I might need to send him a stern email).

Weirdly enough my Dad was telling me last night that he’s eradicated the pigeons from his back garden since he shot a few

Fair enough. Surprises me that it has any effect is all.

That GL42,I like the line

This licence is valid in England, landward of the mean low water mark.

I find this thread reassuringly British.

In the US we’d be reading about a mass shooting event…

Fair enough. Surprises me that it has any effect is all.

I have assumed they are territorial, I got rid of my mcdonalds fed flying rat garden pigeons 4 years ago with the airgun, 10 or so in 2 weeks and didn't get any real return for 2 years. I then used a trap and got 6 in a week and now 2 years later other than passing birds, I had not seen any pigeons in the garden until a few weeks ago when a pair started the mating dance on my shed roof.
I think maybe they nest locally so new ones will not move in until at least the year after, as they already have a nest, or are junveniles and only settling down the mating season after they are born. But thats just conjecture based on the gap I created not being filled.

BTW this rustler trap is excellent and only 30 quid.
http://www.rustlertraps.co.uk/humane-traps/pigeon-traps
You then need a dispatcher which is a fancy pair of pliers. https://www.pestfix.co.uk/humane-bird-dispatcher-pliers.asp
Some older folk just do it manually, and arguably its quicker and more humane than the pliers.

Well, personally I leave fruit on the trees at the allotment for the birds to eat so it's all a bit lost on me. 😂

It’s well within 50m of a public highway

The law is 50' so quite a lot less than 50m...

Kayak23 for the allotment committee!

Seriously these organisations are normally semi democratic. Stand on a no shooting the pidgeons ticket or blocking those who mildly disagree on Facebook. You could end up running the show. You have been warned!

Your local police firearms licensing unit will provide advice and guidance - jsut ask the question as if you are thinking of getting an air rifle and shooting pigeons yourself.

The Arrogant-Committee arse presumably has an allotment‽ And there's a badger sett nearby‽
Sausages. Frozen ones. Among the brassicas. Pigeons will be the least of his problems.
No idea about guns though.

Home Office guide to air weapons

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So if you have lawful authority (eg, GL42) it doesn't apply, and if you don't affect any road users it doesn't apply.

Woodpigeon used to be included in Schedule 2 Part II of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 (Birds which may be taken or killed by authorised persons at any time), but were removed by The Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 (Variation of Schedules 2 and 3) Order 1992. But as above, GL42 applies if you comply with the conditions.

Your local police firearms licensing unit will provide advice and guidance – jsut ask the question as if you are thinking of getting an air rifle and shooting pigeons yourself.

I've chucked them an email pretending to be a budding pigeon fiddler 👍

I’ve chucked them an email pretending to be a budding pigeon fiddler 👍

Why not just tell them your concerns rather than mess them about and go around the houses?

I doubt any shooting enthusiast would object as dickheads with rifles are the quickest way to get their hobby outlawed.

Why not just tell them your concerns rather than mess them about and go around the houses?

Well, if a police armed response unit turn up this afternoon and start carting the committee members off in cuffs, it's going to be pretty obvious who the informant was! Would definitely hamper your chances of a good result at the next village show. 😁

Agreed, I'd have been asking the question straight out rather than telling them you're thinking of doing it yourself. The theoretical scenario you've presented them with will almost certainly just get you some generic advice along the lines that you need landowner permission, must be allowed to posses an air rifle and comply with the conditions of GL42.

I'd have a chat with your local Police rural wildlife officer (usually easily found on FB) as those shooting the pigeons are almost certainly out of order (I bet they haven't got permission from landowner or have a clue what GL42 is). You might find they pop in for an chat and a bit of education.

Why not just tell them your concerns rather than mess them about and go around the houses?

Well, if a police armed response unit turn up this afternoon and start carting the committee members off in cuffs, it’s going to be pretty obvious who the informant was! Would definitely hamper your chances of a good result at the next village show. 😁

Yeah, that essentially.
At this stage, days after one of the most disagreeable blokes on the committee has blocked me and seen cause to delete a post on their page, I don't really want to be that obvious just yet.
I don't think I'm messing them (The police) around. I'm still after the same advice, but without the added element of dobbing them in....yet.

I did wonder if Facebook might be able to get the post back as he's basically admitting to doing it for many years on there. Possibly why he deleted it.

If I go too far, they might start paying more attention to the lack of work I do on my plot and find reasons to kick me out!
I only really have an allotment because I built a couple of fancy sheds on them and don't want to lose them. I do grow stuff, but not all that enthusiastically if I'm honest 😉

I honestly think that with short staffed coppers just being clear about what's going on is best. He'll either say "that sounds fine" or "christ someone's going to lose an eye" and go and sort it.

I think "man loses allotment after pointing out heinous fire arms offence" an unlikely outcome. Besides, would you want to be there while Rambo is letting rip?

TBH I never realised allotments were so exciting 🙂

@dudeofdoom

You don't know man, you weren't there!

I kind of feel like the lady I emailed didn't really read what I was saying. She had previously brushed me off saying that it wasn't a licensing issue concerning a firearm and I should have a look at the general law relating to air guns. I didn't say anything about them shooting outside of the allotment boundary/premises, but anyway, she said this...

Thank you for the further clarification. I have enquired with some of our officers here, and whilst it is not a firearm licencing issue (as not a certifiable weapon) it does sound like an offence is being committed – not least having an air gun in public without due cause and shooting it outside of their premises. Pigeons are classed as vermin so that part would not be an offence on their own grounds.

They have suggested you report it – with as much information as possible through the online incident portal on the ************* Police website or by calling 101.

I hope this is of some help to you

Apparently, the bloke who has been shooting them for many years, has actually been shooting them off a telegraph wire on the boundary with terraced houses behind that! 🫣
The story I've heard is that he shot one and the bloodied body fell into a garden behind where a grandfather and granddaughter had the body land in front of them.
That's what I was told so it may well be a Chinese whispers type situation there, who knows...

Allotments. A hotbed of drama!
Next thing we'll get the blokes from the committee doing a drive by on me, pushing one another in a wheelbarrow 😅

If they have touched a badger set the wildlife team will be very interested.

Rspca and rspb might be worth a chat too as well.

Failing that dress up as a 7ft pigeon and kick the shit out of him. Whist yelling not so brave now.

Pigeons are categorically not classed as vermin!! They can only be shot if the conditions for general license are met.

Thank you for the further clarification. I have enquired with some of our officers here, and whilst it is not a firearm licencing issue (as not a certifiable weapon) it does sound like an offence is being committed – not least having an air gun in public without due cause and shooting it outside of their premises. Pigeons are classed as vermin so that part would not be an offence on their own grounds.

Her reply is a bit wide of the mark on a number of issues.
a) "Having an air gun in public without due cause" - An allotment is not a public place. Although we don't have the name of a landowner on the thread, it isn't a place to which the public has access. The wording 'due cause' has been bolloxed with the actual wording of the Firearms Act, 'good reason'
b)"shooting it outside of their premises" - her reply tends to suggest he should only be shooting it on his own private property. As long as he has the permission of the landowner he can shoot elsewhere.
c) "Pigeons are classed as vermin so that part would not be an offence on their own grounds." No they aren't. They are protected by the Wildlife and Countryside Act, but can be shot under some pretty specific conditions laid down in the General Licence which others have mentioned.

In order for him to be complying to the letter of the law he must have authority to shoot from the landowner or their agent. That may or may not already be in place, so a bit of research is required to discover who owns the land the allotments are on, and of course whether that authority to shoot has been previously requested or granted.

In order for him to shoot pigeons on the allotment he must show that it is for the reasons laid out in the General Licence, and under GL42 protecting fruit and crops from woodpigeons is a permitted reason.
However, he must have first tried or at least considered other alternative methods to protect the fruit and crops: Condition 1. Alternative lawful methods
For action taken under this licence for carrion crow, feral pigeon, jackdaw, magpie, rook or wood pigeon (species native to the United Kingdom), you must:

a) before using this licence, be satisfied that you, or the person authorising you to act under this licence, have made reasonable endeavours to achieve the purpose in question using alternative, lawful methods not covered by this licence

b) continue to use reasonable endeavours, or be satisfied that reasonable endeavours continue to be made, to achieve the purpose in question using alternative, lawful methods not covered by this licence

You’re not required to use alternative, lawful methods under condition 1(a) and 1(b) where the use of such methods would be impractical, without effect or disproportionate in the circumstances.

Apparently, the bloke who has been shooting them for many years, has actually been shooting them off a telegraph wire on the boundary with terraced houses behind that! 🫣
The story I’ve heard is that he shot one and the bloodied body fell into a garden behind where a grandfather and granddaughter had the body land in front of them.

It may just be hearsay, and without evidence from witnesses it's not going anywhere, but his is of course of massive concern, and makes all the above moot.

To summarise: He may be acting lawfully. If the last bit is true he's an idiot, and a dangerous inconsiderate one at that.

Pigeons are categorically not classed as vermin!! They can only be shot if the conditions for general license are met.

Correct.  It's a sad fact that many civilian staff in police firearms licensing departments have a fairly basic grasp of firearms and related (e.g. wildlife) law.  This is exacerbated as firearms law has grown piecemeal over many decades and it's not covered by one piece of legislation but dozens.  The law society were tasked with reviewing this mess a few years ago but ISTR it faltered because of funding and the sheer complexity of sorting it out - low political priority.  So the fact office staff in police firearms licensing departments don't know all the intricacies is understandable.

Thanks all. That's very helpful.
Yes I guess that the lady replying to my enquiries may be more of a first contact within the department and not have a good grasp of the actual law.

Talked to some others and I think the first port of call is for us to be writing to the trustees and see if permission has been in place on the land 👍

Is this going to turn out to be about the Israel/Palestine conflict again?

I thought you could only be kicked off an allotment for not using it or misusing it, not because some self-important arsehole on the Facebook group committee doesn't like you?

Yes I guess that the lady replying to my enquiries may be more of a first contact within the department and not have a good grasp of the actual law.

I'd say it's likely. I wouldn't expect your average Bobby to be a walking legal encyclopedia even, if they were then they'd be earning far more money as a lawyer. But if they're giving out legal advice from a point of (perceived) authority then they should really be asking someone who does know before doing so.

Oops! My post above includes…

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Sorry about that, what I actually posted was some text from the Home Office Guide that I linked to, but the forum software seems to have other ideas!

I’d say it’s likely. I wouldn’t expect your average Bobby to be a walking legal encyclopedia even, if they were then they’d be earning far more money as a lawyer. But if they’re giving out legal advice from a point of (perceived) authority then they should really be asking someone who does know before doing so.

Very true. Somehow I always expect any policehuman to know every single thing about any law relating to anything 😅
To be fair she has actually asked some relevant officers by the sounds of it. 👍

Her reply is a bit wide of the mark on a number of issues.
a) “Having an air gun in public without due cause” – An allotment is not a public place

The issue of whether something qualifiies as a public space for legisation purposes will depend on the individual facts. As a general rule, locked gates, fencing and no trespassing signs would generally indicate (but not prove) that it isn't a public space. If however people who are not allotment holders are generally tolerated and allowe access to the site it coud quite easily be a public space. Or not - again the specific facts will determine this.

Well exactly.. Tescos car park is technically private land but it's treated as public for legal and insurance reasons as not everyone there is a customer with private access.

Same as an allotment... To you have to swipe a key card to get in and get your grand daughter to sign the visitors book and give her a lanyard with a visitor card on it?

No.

Yeah the main gate is wide open all day so fairly easy for anyone to wander in.

So it's not "public land" but it is "publicly accessible land"?

As far as Firearms Act goes, it will almost certainly be a public place. Definition is:

“Public place” is defined to include “any highway and any other
premises or place to which at the material time the public have or are permitted to have
access, whether on payment or otherwise.”

It can be quite concievable that it is legal. Or not> The 50 feet thing is a red herring as there has to be an effect on others to stop this and not liking it doesn't count. A click of a pellet doesn't count either.
You'll have to investigate your specific contracts to see if you have any rights as a land user to stop this. All of the above points in other posts are generally correct but cannot cover all circumstances thus a deinitive answer won't be found here.
Two things that ought to be considered are that pigeons are a bloody pest and need controlling and any sensible allotment holder would love to see the back of them and the general licence allows for this once other methods have been tried.
Secondly, why decry an old tradition? We live in a world of idiots who are happy to stop anything that they don't like. Don't add to it if it is happening legally. No different to so called "cheeky" MTBing.
The lead issue is also rather an over statement. You'll be able to fish a pellet out of your cabbage when you eat it if not before. Big things pellets. Even a .177 is 4.5mm across. I would just tread gently .

The lead issue is also rather an over statement. You’ll be able to fish a pellet out of your cabbage when you eat it if not before. Big things pellets. Even a .177 is 4.5mm across. I would just tread gently .

And if I tread gently in a plot behind the shooter and get a .22 in my eye instead of my cabbage?

Secondly, why decry an old tradition?

Sorry but something being a tradition is a terrible reason for blindly supporting it.

And if I tread gently in a plot behind the shooter and get a .22 in my eye instead of my cabbage?

That's quite a leap. Unless they have done anything to make you think this might actually happen, which would have been reportable in any case, you're just making stuff up. Don't be that guy. No responsible shooter would shoot without consideration of what is or might be in front of them.

Sorry but something being a tradition is a terrible reason for blindly supporting it.

Nobody is asking you to blindly support anything. FWIW I think the shooters have opened themselves up to confrontation with their attitudes but that doesn't change the fact they may well be in the right. Back to the cheeky trails analogy.

Any developments @kayak23 ?

Plot twist: he's currently in A&E with pellet wounds.