You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
Hi, aware there is a wealth of knowledge on this forum, wondering if you can help.
We are (luckily) in the process of purchasing a 'new to us' house. The property is approx. 100 years old has a really long garden (150ft plus in length). Both neighbouring properties only appear to maintain the top 1/3 of their garden, the rest being left to run wild. Currently there are fence panels at the top of the garden, and a mix of hedge and dilapidated concrete posts with chain-link fence lower down the garden.
The issue I have is:
· The current owner claims they don’t know who is responsible for these boundaries.
· There are no details in the Land Registry regarding responsibility.
· The solicitor “assumes” that based on the above information this will therefore be subject to a party wall agreement.
I’m not comfortable with the assumption and would ideally like to know exactly what the arrangements are to purchase but wonder if I’m making a mountain out of a molehill?
From what I’ve read, even if either of the boundaries are the responsibility of another neighbour there’s nothing I can do to enforce their upkeep. Is this true?
Is this likely to cause me issues should I come to sell ‘x’ years down the line?
I’m toying with purchasing copies of the land registry entries for the neighbouring properties to see if these detail anything as at £3 each this could be a cheap/easy way of finding out some more information. Alternatively I could knock on the neighbours door to see what their understanding is.
Thanks in advance for any advice.
I moved from a 100 year old house to another 100 year old house a couple of years back. Based on a sample size of "two" I'd expect any land registry borders to be defined in such coarse pen that they're about three metres wide.
I'd talk to the neighbours. a) to feel out what their understanding / expectation is even if it's wrong, and b) to see whether you're about to move in between two sets of abject cockbags.
Don't worry about it. Talk to your new neighbours about who's responsible, they may be more than amenable to going halves on anything (my old ones were). And if they're not, and you want the fencing replaced, just replace it but along a line directly next to the existing fencing (so about three inches into your garden).
Contrary to popular opinion (except if it is in the Deeds and a condition), the boundary does not have to be a fence. it can be a hedge, a fence, a small wall, or just a piece of string.
Ours was a Council house, there was a clause about the boundaries needed to be maintained. The boundaries were a series of 3 foot high concrete posts, around 8 feet apart, with 2 strings of wire between them.
if you want a solid boundry, and your neighbour doesn't, its your responsibility to build it. You might find the neighbour also wants it (and is willing to contribute), otherwise budget for 200' of fencing plus installation
In that situation I wouldn't worry. You can always put your own fence up just inside the boundary if there is an issue (which there probably won't be).
I would consider downloading the land registry documents for the neighbours anyway. You never know what rights people have. There are two documents per house so it does add up, but not much in the whole process.
isnt there something like you maintain the boundary o the right? or something like that?
I`m no land conveyancer BTW.
I`ve no idea who maintains whose boundary at our house. the laylandi trees are my neighbors on the left and the chap on the right sprays the chainlink fence with weedkiller and sometimes chucks the lopped off bits of our hedge back over the fence. they are nice neighbours so all is good.
Similar situation here, long narrow garden with dilapidated fences (Victorian terrace).
The rule in the street was you own the fence to your left as you look back from the house, but the RH fence had collapsed and the owner wasn't bothered.
I just spoke to the neighbours and replaced the whole lot myself.
This then went on to cause some minor confusion as that house has sold on twice and the new neigbour then assumed I owned the fence, so the replaced her neighbours fence, thinking she was responsible for it.
No one minds new fences esp if someone else is paying for them...
I think we had a similar issue / slightly more complicate when we moved house a few years back.
As above I would start by talking to perspective neighbours. Ours were fine but we all agree it needed confirming legally. Cost a but more though as all the deeds needed updating and we paid for it
In every house I’ve bought I’ve applied two principles…
1) I expect the boundaries registered on the land registry plan to be reasonably accurate.
2) if I want a fence replacing or putting up, I pay for it.
Life’s too short to get into boundary disputes or arguments over paying for fences.
The solicitor “assumes” that based on the above information this will therefore be subject to a party wall agreement.
The solicitor doesn't understand the Party Wall Act. It doesn't cover fences.
Or the OP doesn't understand what the solicitor is telling him...
2) if I want a fence replacing or putting up, I pay for it.
Yep, that is what I have done. All four of the fences around my house are mine and I have a lot of fences!
When I moved in the 'fence' was some 1 foot high bit of wood with a metal wire going along them.
Best to think about having fairly low fences in a narrow garden, 6ft fences can create a lot of shade and it's nice to be able to chat to neighbours.
+1 for checking neighbours land registry entry, the end of my wife's garden wasn't actually part of the property...
It might help to look what is in place currently - it is convention but NOT the law that if the fence is asymmetrical ie posts showing only to one side the owner of the fence gets to look at the posts not the smooth side
Ours was a Council house, there was a clause about the boundaries needed to be maintained. The boundaries were a series of 3 foot high concrete posts, around 8 feet apart, with 2 strings of wire between them.
We had a new(ish) built estate which had boundaries like that when we moved in, was a patchwork of people who'd ripped the old posts and wires (three not two) out and replaced with fence, or just left them as they were.
By the time we moved out, it was all fences, virtually no two the same!
Best to think about having fairly low fences in a narrow garden, 6ft fences can create a lot of shade and it’s nice to be able to chat to neighbours.
I've found that higher fences near the house (maximum height permissible, near enough) for the first few metres, then low fences for the rest works well. Just for privacy immediately outside the back door and some small amount of shelter, wind breaking.
https://www.gov.uk/your-property-boundaries
https://www.ros.gov.uk/services/order-deeds/property-boundaries
" https://hmlandregistry.blog.gov.uk/2018/02/27/drawing-the-line-on-boundaries/ "
"This blog was updated on 10 June 2021.
I often get asked questions about boundaries and they tend to be some of the hardest to answer. A boundary feature can be a fence, wall, hedge, ditch, piece of wire, or sometimes even just the edge of a driveway. They can be the cause of heated debate and trigger arguments between neighbours, sometimes over just a few inches of ground.
In my experience, the boundary can often become the weapon of choice when neighbours have fallen out over something such as noise, pets, parties, or BBQs when the washing is out.
I always start by explaining that we can’t tell you exactly where your legal boundary is, as our title plans show general boundaries. The information is based on large-scale Ordnance Survey mapping and is generalised to some degree. For instance, it may not show small juts in the boundary or bay windows.
We can’t tell you which boundary feature you are responsible for either, though some registers may refer to this. If you want to check if we have any boundary information, you can get a copy of the title register, title plan, and any ‘filed’ deeds we have for your own property and your neighbour's property. A deed plan may refer to measurements but these have to be interpreted, as the land may not be level and you don’t know where they were measured from or how.
People often think they are responsible for the left (or right) hand boundary wherever they live, but there isn’t any legal basis for this. Sometimes deeds lodged with us when we first register the property may have information about it, in which case it may be mentioned in the register. In a lot of cases though, the deeds make no mention.
Then there are cases where the deeds refer to ‘T’ marks on a plan and include wording such as ‘to maintain the boundaries marked with an inward facing T mark’. Larger developments tend to have some indication provided by the builder, but there are no hard and fast rules, I’m afraid.
If you want to change an existing boundary, such as replacing an old fence with a new one, we always recommend discussing with your neighbour first and making sure it is all agreed. The registered titles can help you to reach an agreement, but only if this information has been added."
Hi. Thanks everyone, I'll read back over this later when the kids are in bed so I can digest it properly.
It's very useful to get a bunch of feedback - Appreciate the time taken to respond to my original post.
The comment about misinterpreting what the solicitors have said made me chuckle - this is very likely so will revisit their email too 😁
Thanks again
It’s probably not worth worrying over, we have messy boundaries and the deeds don’t match the reality, no one cares. Old houses often have some interesting issues, it’s part of the fun.
Our place hadn't changed hands for a long time so the solicitor gave us an old map and felt tip to draw what we thought we were buying 😆
It was also semi abandoned, so the neighbours had already put up decent fences to hold back the wilderness.
I wouldn't worry about it. I've got 1400ft of boundary to worry about. Some fence, some bush, some multiple fences. No one cares, and no one knows who's responsible for them - we just fix them if they need it.
That being said I would not put an offer on a property until I'd downloaded the land reg documents (plans and text) for at least the immediate neighbours. Sometimes you find very surprising things and it doesn't cost much in the overall scale of things.