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I’d really be grateful for some advice on a big issue that’s just come up for me.
There has been sewage discharge into a local brook at the bottom of our close, a complaints been made and the council have investigated. They’ve traced the leakage to us although we were oblivious to it.
We bought the house approx. a year ago, the previous owner got planning permission for a loft conversion and built a master bedroom with ensuite and a third bedroom.
It is the ensuite that is the problem; the toilet and shower both drain into the rainwater pipe, and into the brook. The rainwater pipe is on one side of the house (a vertical drainpipe which is also linked to the guttering) .The sewage/blackwater pipe is on the other side of the house and is accessible by a manhole cover.
The whole loft conversion was signed off by a private company, which im pretty sure included all the works done – including sewerage. I have the completion certificate for the whole loft conversion in our title report.
I spoke to the council yesterday and they’re going to talk to this company that signed the work off and get back to me.
Im praying to god that the building reg company that signed the work off are liable and there is insurance to pay for remedial works; we’re looking at routing the ensuite towards the other side of the house which probably means digging a trench right through the back garden.
We don’t have any money to pay for any works at all, no savings etc. Our home insurance doesn’t include legal cover so that’s a dead end and I doubt it would cover the costs of remedial work in these circumstances.
What I can’t get my head around is that someone apparently knowingly routed the sewage into the local brook?! Was the previous owner (who has cut corners in most places it seems that weren’t obvious when we viewed the house) either aware or completely ignorant? Its f..ing appalling. The previous owner is a professional gutterer so Im assuming a bit of knowledge but still, they lived in the house for a couple of years before we bought it. Did he think that he’d just pollute the brook and then the poor saps that buy the place can deal with the fallout?
What I’d be really grateful for is any advice on what to do and if you have any similar stories and the outcomes.
Sounds like a shit situation 🙁
Sounds like you're up shit creek without a paddle
What I can’t get my head around is that someone apparently knowingly routed the sewage into the local brook?!
Cowboys. I wouldn''t be surprised if the owner didn't also know, but there's no point in thinking about them really (easy to deny knowledge I suppose). Cross your fingers that it's the guys on-site that cut (massive) corners rather than the company itself
If the completion certificate has a warranty which is transferable you may be in luck. If it was a private building regs inspection you may also have some comeback, but if it was local authority you may struggle as there are cases which preclude a cause of action against the LA in such circumstances. You probably won't have a claim against the loft conversion co.
Did you have a pre-purchase survey? It's unlikely you will have any comeback against the vendor but worth looking at the SPIF and replies to enquiries.
Did he think that he’d just pollute the brook and then the poor saps that buy the place can deal with the fallout?
Yes!
What I can’t get my head around is that someone apparently knowingly routed the sewage into the local brook?!
Putting on my ex-local authority public health engineer hat, I can believe that someone would do that.
Did he think that he’d just pollute the brook and then the poor saps that buy the place can deal with the fallout?
Yes.
private building regs inspection
Does that actually exist!?
Edit: It appears so... wow.
Does that actually exist!?
Yes, eg - https://www.grumittwade.com/private-building-control-local-authority-building-control
You can pay a private buildings inspection to certify but it should be to the same standard as LA inspection. Sometimes it isn't though...
The previous owner is a professional gutterer so Im assuming a bit of knowledge but still, they lived in the house for a couple of years before we bought it. Did he think that he’d just pollute the brook and then the poor saps that buy the place can deal with the fallout?
Sadly, there are a lot of builders/roofers out there who would pull this kind of stunt, even on their own home. Did he build it himself or get another firm in to do the loft extension?
Have the Environment Agency been involved? - strictly speaking, a criminal offence has been committed by whoever knowingly allowed the discharge of sewage into the waterway.
First, stop using that loo and shower.
Yes people deliberately do this. Horrid isn't it.
I suspect you are going to end up digging a big hole and paying for the remedial - even if you have a warranty etc, the cost of forcing a company to come back and do it (and do you want them to do it anyway?) may be more than a hole a new drains.
A temporary solution may be to look at a macerator and flexi pipe around to other side of house.
You can pay a private buildings inspection to certify but it should be to the same standard as LA inspection. Sometimes it isn’t though…
Of course it isn't to the same standard. Under fund and outsource to private companies, when has that ever worked for anything?
sounds like the private inspection company didn't do a proper jobbie. Just went through the motions.
Condolences on your situation, OP.
As the planning permission is recent, I’d be downloading the application from the council website and looking at the plans, and the boxes on the application form concerning surface and foul water
As to private building inspectors, I use them at work and find them to be better than those from the various LAs. YMMV, of course.
Did you have a survey carried out on the house before purchase/mortgage etc?
Anything in the terms and conditions and the report itself that may be useful regarding comeback to the surveyor?
(I expect that in the small print there will be all sorts of legalese wriggle out clauses, we did the survey, but are not responsible for the words in the report etc, etc)
Not a great situation but to put your mind at ease a little, drains are not that complex and a lot of it you can do yourself to save money. The majority of the cost will be in digging trenches and then filling them in again. The cost of materials is pretty small - see here for example - https://www.screwfix.com/p/floplast-underground-drainage-pipe-3m-2-pack/14129?tc=FT8&ds_kid=92700020953276310&ds_rl=1249799&ds_rl=1245250&ds_rl=1249481&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI7ZeEgo_53QIVCLTtCh3Gagt4EAQYASABEgJxuvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=CMCAr4SP-d0CFYIi0wodwx4GjQ
Even if you pay a plumber to tell you what is needed and do the connections, I am sure he wont mind you doing all the digging.
I'd imagine all the surveyor would have seen was a rainwater gutter also draining into what looked like a legitimate foul water connection.
Time to dig up the property information form your vendor filled in when he sold the property - one of the questions normally asks whether the vendor is aware of any breaches of planning/BC permissions.
If your gutterer did the illegal work himself, then you may be able to pursue him for a false statement there.
If, however, a separate firm did it, you would not be able to sue them, but the work may be covered by NHBC or other guarantee.
As regards the building inspectors reports, you should be able to see at what point they have carried out the statutory inspection of any new drains. I'm guessing though that there will have been an existing rainwater drain at this point which will have been described as leading into the sewage system. Perhaps the homeowner actually believed this was the case. I would have thought there would still be some obligation to lift the manhole on the other side to confirm where the water was heading.
As above - if you have an easy route to the front of the house (ie. no concrete pads to go through, no other service pipes) I'd just suck it up, dig the trench yourselves and pay a plumber/drainage engineer to connect stuff up and do the certificates. If you go for a legal option against anyone it'll take months at least to resolve.
And don't use it in the meantime.
I'd also leaflet all the affected neighbours and explain what the issue is and what you're doing about it.
We also use approved inspectors and find them generally to be comparable to the LA version.
Call the Enviroment Agency to get them to visit you to see the pipe themselves, ask if they were involved during the planning application, if they weren't, the planner and builder has commited a big boo boo. You should also contact the local planning department to find out who passed this. Given the fact there is a stream close by, if the EA have been involved and given permission, they are culpable too. It might also be worth contacting your local water authority.
I think looking up the plans would be my first port of call. It may be that they originally got planning for a basic extension but then added the bathroom as an extra during the build so there was never any consideration for that. I would have expected to see any recent plans in the conveyancing documents or if they werent looked them up myself.
Is there anything that should have been spotted by your conveyancing solicitor? I doubt it, much like any survey you had but worth checking and I doubt you would have any come back with the seller now.
Going to sound a bit harsh but always assume when buying a house there could be something costing several £000 that could go wrong and make sure you have contingency. Before I bought my first flat writing 4 figure cheques was something I was not used to and I would always question spending those figures on stuff, it didnt take long for that to change.
I suspect you may end up being very out of pocket to fix it, short term it may just be cap off the waste to prove there wont be any more going down there and then deal with it when you can but I hope you can get someone else to foot the bill. I also hope they prosecute whoever is actually responsible for doing it.
Might be worth giving cowboy builders a call (TV show) as they might be building a case file on that builder already for screwing someone over even worse.
Brilliant response, thanks very much.
leaving any cynicism aside, I think the builder/plumber may have just rigged it up with the easiest outlet pipe.
It was local authority environmental health that came round, with United Utilities I believe yesterday. They've contacted the private building reg firm and they're going to contact the vendor, although they won't get any joy knowing him. I'd love to sue him if I could (there's a list of latent shit that's emerged plus he took the piss on moving day)
im waiting to hear back - I've got a load on at the minute so last thing I need but nowt you can do eh?
easy solution for now - stop using it!
from there you can explore options.
In terms of making a connection ot the existing foul manhole you need to consider teh depth of the existing manhole and distance from teh en suite. You`ll need a 1in40 fall as a minimum from one WC. You may find the existing manhole isnt deep enouigh to make the conection and will need pumping. as suggested previously a saniflo thing or small pump station would suffice. (saniflos are horrid)
As you are a recent purchaser and blissfully unaware i`m not sure how they could go after you for prosecution as you would have no way of knowing and its obviously the previous owner/building inspector who is at fault. You may have to pay for the alterations though.
We find the non-LABC inspectors really shit and sign-off pretty much anything.
In my experience Sanifos are OK. We had one in a second bathroom which was used for showering, bog & basin. It didn't have to push uphill, just under floorboards to the other side of the house and worked fine for over 20 years, only had a problem if the kids threw Lego in.
Sounds like you have unfinished business...
We have a Saniflo at work for a couple of sinks the cleaners use. It takes waste water up and over a corridor to the main sewage pipe. It doesn't like tea bags or coffee grounds or food waste but otherwise it works fine
If you're going to claim against anyone, you need to be absolutely clinical in establishing the basis, ie, you need to have some kind of contract, or a relationship that implies a duty of care, and you need evidence. You had a contract with the seller, so what was in that contract about the building work, did they give you certificates of compliance, etc, that now turn out to be inaccurate? Was there anything your solicitor / conveyancer should have spotted but didn't? I don't think you'll get anywhere with the building inspector as they had no duty to you. Finally, plumbers are cheaper than lawyers, so unless you're confident of winning a case and getting your costs paid, you may need to bite the bullet and pay for it/fix it yourself.
I discovered earlier this year that although the plans for our 30 year old house (we bought it 28 years ago) show the kitchen drain going into the foul, it actually went into the rainwater. I suspect the builder was lazy and forgot about it, so laid the main foul drain too steeply and there wasn't enough fall to reach the kitchen. I read the regs, found out the right way to do it, dug it up and fixed it. Cost about £1k for materials; it was clay pipe, would have been much cheaper if it had been plastic.
It’s nothing to do with the EA, unless you continue to use it then it might become something they’re interested in.
Not useful for the OP, but might be useful advice for anyone else… speaking from personal experience… NEVER buy a house from anyone working in the building trade… they know how to make everything LOOK sorted… and then you have years of finding hidden craziness…