[Closed] Adobe Creative Cloud photography plan

Its Adobe. They'll price everything, and shove their corporate weight around, to put all the competition out of business, then put the prices through the roof.

As a ground rule, if you don't have to use them - because for so much now you just have too, because there's no option - then don't!

Ok then, alternatives to lightroom?

I got a years free subscription as part of a promotion when I bought a new camera. Photoshop and Lightroom are great products but the price of the subscription wasn't worth it for the amount of time I use it so bought Affinity Photo instead which covers everything I need for much less.
I didn't use the online storage as I use iCloud.

Try searching the photography forums for peoples experiences and alternative programs.

Peoples main concern has been finding themselves stranded with a load of unusable personal files if for any reason they can no longer pay the subscription.

Also you can't really have a stand alone non internet machine as to continue using CC Lightroom or photoshop you have to connect to the internet to keep validating your program or it stops working (things may have moved on from that last one marginally, I no longer follow CC stuff).

Lightroom standalone 6 is still available, but Adobe have gone back on their word. Originally they said they would continue the stand alone version but as soon as they released 6 they said it would be the last non subscription version, then immediately made a big deal of upgrading the CC version of 6 and leaving all the stand alone new purchasers already dumped with their brand new copies. Yes,lets just slap loyal customers in the face.

When my stand alone copies of LR and Photoshop are no longer viable I will be seeking out a new supplier as Adobe are 2 faced. Having said that, many people who are happy to pay a subscription for the rest of their photographic life seem happy with CC, though the automatic upgrades do not always run smoothly.

Also remember Adobe was one of the compnaies who had a major hack last year. They told everyone it was small and harmless then the numbers of hacked accounts went up and up and up, I was one who had to cancel a now possibly unsafe credit card. I will never give them a card number again, not just because of the hacking but because they did 'damage contol' by not admitting how really bad it was for weeks...

GIMP (awful name) is a well respected and free photoshop type program.

Forums

Mostly UK
https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums

International
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/index.php?full
http://www.thephotoforum.com

you have to connect to the internet to keep validating your program or it stops working

Hmm, that's less than ideal.

However, if they are going to stop making standalone software then it's either cloud or something else. I appreciate GIMP is there but it's not a substitute for Lightroom. I want (currently need) to process lots of RAW files easily.

Re credit cards - I'd be happier to give my card to a company that HAS been involved in a hacking scandal, I think.

you have to connect to the internet to keep validating your program or it stops working

Hmm, that's less than ideal.

No shit!

The situation as it stands is that if you want to manipulate photography or illustrate, using a pooter with an internet link, then you pay Adobe a subscription to do so.

You may have already paid Adobe the thick end of 2 grand for their stand alone software, but that is now unsupported without the subscription, and they've been sure to make it so the files are as backward incompatible as possible.

So you really only have one option. Pay Adobe £50 a month. I'd put my house on it that within a year that becomes £100 a month.

As you may have picked up... this absolutely boils my piss! I can't see how its legal for Adobe to have got away with establishing a total monopoly over this area, sometimes by some very dubious means, and then milking this monopoly for all its worth, and effectively now dictating how the whole industry will function.... entirely in their interests

this absolutely boils my piss!

Your piss is so frequently boiled I'm sure your house has to have a special heat-resistant toilet and extractor hood to remove the hot piss vapour before it reaches toxic levels.

So we're saying there's no decent alternative to LR then?

So we're saying there's no decent alternative to LR then?

Yip. Because the second one emerges, Adobe buys them up, closes them down, and absorbs their technology, to maintain their total monopoly position.

My piss is indeed frequently boiled, but I save a special place for the Tory party and Adobe.

Related: [url= http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/your-photo-managementsyncing-system-lightroom-content ]http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/your-photo-managementsyncing-system-lightroom-content[/url]

My Lightroom trial has ended and now I'm torn between stumping up for a standalone LR licence (no way I'm getting into this subscription bollocks) and making darktable work for me on Linux. LR is clearly better than DT (it bloody should be) but DT is obviously powerful and with a bit of time spent learning my way round, could work.

One thing that boiled my piss while I was trying out LR was that I couldn't import my old Aperture library without buying a licence. I wanted to try it out properly, which means having a large library of photos in there, which I couldn't do without buying the bloody thing.

My Lightroom trial has ended and now I'm torn between stumping up for a standalone LR licence (no way I'm getting into this subscription bollocks)

If you buy a standalone copy, then you'll soon be finding yourself in the same position as all of us who stumped up for CS6. Getting shafted. Adobe said they would continue to support CS6. Then they decided they wouldn't without a subscription, and they now don't. Its a subscription or nothing, regardless of whether you've already shelled out the total cost of the software already.

You'd have to be mad to stump up an upfront fee for any Adobe software, given their recent track record. They've signaled pretty damn clearly the way they want it all to work - on a subscription only basis. And because they have a total monopoly, they get to do whatever they like. So thats the way its inevitably going to be.

Having never used Lightroom I don't know what it's like, but I've been using RawTherapee for my raw photo development at work.

[url= http://rawtherapee.com/ ]http://rawtherapee.com/[/url]

Pay Adobe £50 a month

Well, 8 quid or thereabouts for LR+PS

Raw Therapy (I refuse to use that stupid spelling) looks decent, but it looks complex for a n00b, open source software often doesn't manage to spend the time on user friendliness or tutorials and the like.

I'll try it out though.

I've never used the cloud as yet, but what does CC give that CS6 doesn't?

If you buy a standalone copy, then you'll soon be finding yourself in the same position as all of us who stumped up for CS6.

Agreed, to an extent. As in, if you expect to get a piece of software which will be supported forever more. But if you can accept that you get the software as it is now, and it will work exactly the same for as long as you want it to (i.e. how software used to work before the days of daily updates) then you've got what you paid for. Adobe aren't going to break into my computer and steal it back are they? (Are they? 😯 )

Hadn't heard of Affinity - looks good but Mac only.

Support for new cameras, compatibility w new operating systems, shiny buttons.

Ok then, alternatives to lightroom?

Why don't you just buy the full version ?

Support for new cameras, compatibility w new operating systems, shiny buttons.

First point wouldn't worry me, RAW formats are standard (maybe things are different at the professional end of the market, but that end is going to be paying for their software whatever). Second point I take, but my original point still stands. Third point... well this is STW. Does CS6 support 29+?!

First point wouldn't worry me, RAW formats are standard

Yes and no. If PS doesn't support your camera, it won't look at your photos. There is a workaround but it's a kludge.

Yip. Because the second one emerges, Adobe buys them up, closes them down, and absorbs their technology, to maintain their total monopoly position.

So you really only have one option. Pay Adobe £50 a month. I'd put my house on it that within a year that becomes £100 a month.

First point wouldn't worry me, RAW formats are standard (maybe things are different at the professional end of the market, but that end is going to be paying for their software whatever). Second point I take, but my original point still stands. Third point... well this is STW. Does CS6 support 29+?!

Erm, no they are not, I had to upgrade from LR3 to LR6 to get RAW support for an Olympus OMD E-M10

Not an Adobe fan are you binners! 😀

Adobe is dirt cheap when you look at the price of Autocad.

And to be honest if a designer/printer can't cover £40/£50 a month on this Adobe overhead they should be in another trade. And it is professional software, not targeted at the home user, and when used to it's fullest extent it's pretty awesome.

I'm not disputing that MM. Its great software. And, at the moment, the price is reasonable. We'll see how long that lasts once they've moved everyone over to the subscription model. Not long, is my guess.

But my point is that if you went and bought a car, and paid cash for it, then its yours. You own it.

Now say a month later the garage that sold you the car sent you a letter telling you that, from next month, you will have to pay them a monthly subscription to continue to drive it. Failure to do so would mean that, in practical terms, it would progressively disable itself, until you could no longer use it.

How would you feel about that set up? Because that's exactly what Adobe have done. They've not so much moved the goalposts, as dug up the pitch and moved it to another location.

They're using their monopoly position to make everyone pay for it twice. Nice work if you can get it!

If PS doesn't support your camera, it won't look at your photos.

Erm, no they are not, I had to upgrade from LR3 to LR6 to get RAW support for an Olympus OMD E-M10

That's not my experience, but my experience is pretty limited. Take photos in RAW, plug camera in, PC recognises as mass storage, software sees RAW files in filesystem and pulls them in. I assume from these comments that it doesn't always work this way, but I don't see why it can't.

I've always used Pentax's native RAW format, but even that's never caused me a problem.

Now say a month later the garage that sold you the car sent you a letter telling you that, from next month, you will have to pay them a monthly subscription to continue to drive it. Failure to do so would mean that, in practical terms, it would progressively disable itself, until you could no longer use it.

How would you feel about that set up? Because that's exactly what Adobe have done. They've not so much moved the goalposts, as dug up the pitch and moved it to another location.

I'm not sure why I feel the need to defend Adobe here, but, just playing devil's advocate for a second...

Isn't it more like: you've bought a car, but then some new shiny cars are released but you can't have them unless you buy them. You have the same old car, which gradually gets dinged, scratched dirty, less efficient and generally a bit outdated, particularly in comparison to the new shiny cars. In the car analogy, you can continually lease and get a new car every year, but it'll cost you.

[quote=thenorthwind ] I assume from these comments that it doesn't always work this way, but I don't see why it can't.

It can't because (AIUI) the RAW file has a header that says "I am a Pentax XYZ" and then PS (well, ACR) knows that to decode the file it needs to look in byte 12 for the first RED value, 16 for the first GREEN, or whatever (I just made that up).

If the Pentax ZZZ is a newer camera, ACR doesn't know where to look for the data. Maybe (speculation) it will guess that ZZZ is the same as XYZ, but you aren't guaranteed of that.

The analogy might work if the CC software was any improvement on CS6. It isn't. Its exactly the same. The only thing that's changed is the way you pay for it.

If you bought CS6 for 2 grand, like I and a lot of other people did, on the proviso that it would remain suported as a standalone product, then you'd surely be a bit miffed to be told, immediately afterwards that that isn't actually the case, and you now need to pay the subscription, in addition to the fee you've already paid.

To use your analogy: it would be paying for a car cash, then still having to pay the fees to lease it

It isn't. Its exactly the same.

The analogy might work if the CC software was any improvement over CS6. It isn't. Its exactly the same.

In practical terms, you can't. Once other people move over and they're batting files about. You can't open CC files in CS6. So unless you want to make like difficult for yourself, then you have to upgrade onto CC.

It just really annoys me that Adobe have engineered this to maximise their profits by exploiting their monopoly position, and shafting the people who have supported them by buying their software for over 20 years. As business models go, its about as cynical as it gets.

And at the moment its £50 a month. Which is fine. How long do you think it'll stay at that level once everyone has been forced to move over to CC?

If Adobe's previous track record is anything to go by, it'll get ratcheted up at a rate of knots to whatever they demand, and an entire industry will have no option but to pay it

binners - Member
In practical terms, you can't.

I'm know the exact mechanics, I'm still working on CS3 and i manage. It's easy enough!

CC2015 is a massive improvement over CS6

Examples of notable improvements please?

It can't because (AIUI) the RAW file has a header that says "I am a Pentax XYZ" and then PS (well, ACR) knows that to decode the file it needs to look in byte 12 for the first RED value, 16 for the first GREEN, or whatever (I just made that up).

If the Pentax ZZZ is a newer camera, ACR doesn't know where to look for the data. Maybe (speculation) it will guess that ZZZ is the same as XYZ, but you aren't guaranteed of that.

Exactly, Olympus RAW (ORF) out of the EM-10 were not supported in LR3, they are in LR6, it imports these and converts to native LR format for editing.

You can check support here:

https://helpx.adobe.com/camera-raw/kb/camera-raw-plug-supported-cameras.html

That Affinity Photo looks pretty impressive, might need to give that a whirl.

I'm know the exact mechanics, I'm still working on CS3 and i manage. It's easy enough!

Do you use it on a daily basis seosamh77?

Because if I sent you any of the files I've worked on in the last 12 months, you couldn't even open them. I don't really see how that can be regarded as 'easy enough'

In practical terms, you can't. Once other people move over and they're batting files about. You can't open CC files in CS6. So unless you want to make like difficult for yourself, then you have to upgrade onto CC.

Examples of notable improvements please?

😀 Retina resolution, hardware acceleration & the dynamic zoom thing make it nicer to use & make me more productive.
😀 Autosave is handy (why did they never have this before?!) although to be fair I think Illustrator has only fallen over once since I moved to CC & got 32Gb RAM
😀 The thing that lets you round corners off really quick
😀 curvature tool is awesome
😀 pixel preview is good if you like messing around with pixel art
😀 file packaging & unembedding - not essential but nice to have

There may be others that I've got so used to using my brain just remembers them as always being there and I'm sure there are loads I don't even know about - I learn new stuff about Illustrator regularly & I've been using it professionally for well over 10 years

@binners...

How come you paid £2k for CS6? I can't recall upgrades ever being that much, or did you have to buy a full version from scratch?

To be fair the only reason I upgraded from CS4 is because all the stock vector graphics were being done in later versions of Illustrator and I couldn't open them properly.

And re pricing - I think Affinity (Serif) will keep them honest now. They really seem to have chucked some major development at their new software, with more to come. Perhaps they can smell-out loads of peeved Adobe customers.

The really simple solution to this is just have people send you files as PDF/TIFF. Not an unusual requirement in the biz.

And how do you edit those then? If I can't open and edit a file its no use to me. So how does supplying me with a PDF help me, if I need print ready indesign files to work on?

I use it

recommend it

Was very easy process, few details (if you already have an adobe account you just log in and give them your card details), click download + install it. Their updater keeps you on the newest version

You can just write it off against tax if you're a sole trader

And how do you edit those then? If I can't open and edit a file its no use to me. So how does supplying me with a PDF help me, if I need print ready indesign files to work on?

Oh yeah, forgot the font search feature - that was very welcome! Must save me almost a minute every day. All adds up though...

Can you not load a PDF into InDesign then?

No

I'll tell you what... next time any of you lot who are defending Adobe's business model are in the market for a new car, bike or any other big ticket purchase, could you give me a shout.. I reckon I could sort you out a cracking deal

Can you not load a PDF into InDesign then?

You can place one, but not edit it.

You can open them in Illustrator, but a PDF (depending on how it;s created) strips out a lot of important data. It's a right faff to work with - the odd page is OK, but not loads.

I've used LR since it was Pixmantec's RawShooter Pro. I brought a standalone upgrade from 4.4 to 6 when it became clear that Adobe were bending people over a log with subscription lock ins and I wanted up to date raw support. I totally agree with Binnrs somethingion of Adobe's business model.

However I have very recently brought DXO's OpticPro 10. It does not have any of the cataloging features of LR but limited playing has shown it to be very good with noise management.

Worth a look IMO

Is there not a conversion tool to convert old files into the newer ones? Poor show if not. MS word can open 20 year old files.

You can place one, but not edit it.

You can open them in Illustrator, but a PDF (depending on how it;s created) strips out a lot of important data. It's a right faff to work with - the odd page is OK, but not loads.

You can open them in Illustrator, but a PDF (depending on how it;s created) strips out a lot of important data. It's a right faff to work with - the odd page is OK, but not loads.

Of course, the alternative is just stop being a martyr and suck it up.

Exactly what I have been doing. But its Friday afternoon, and this is STW. So I demand my god given right to be a whiney middle class cockbag, and bang on and on and on about my petty first world problems 😉

A think a lot of the contention on this thread is (as I think someone may have already pointed out) down to the fact that LR is, really, a professional tool.

Some people on here are clearly professionals, and, unless I'm the only one, some people are just enthusiasts. They're two very different use cases, with different requirements and probably needing different business models, and trying to argue the point from both sides isn't going to get us anywhere.

As long as the "Preserve Illustrator Editing Capabilities" box is ticked I've not noticed any oddities.

Works if the PDF is created in Illustrator. If the PDF is created by InDesign there isn't that option.

binners - Member
I'm know the exact mechanics, I'm still working on CS3 and i manage. It's easy enough!
Do you use it on a daily basis seosamh77?

I deal with supplied file type for all the work over and above, indesign files are the sticky ones. i'd need to ask you to save back (cs3 is a big issue there these days tbh, I tend just to recreate from pdf if necessary, it's easy enough to open a pdf in illy and take copy paste into indesign), illy files are no bother, you just place the ai or eps in an indesign doc, export as pdf and then you can open in any version of illy. tattieshop files, i've never really had much of a bother with.

it can be a pain in the bugger particularly indesign as far back as CS3. But it's doable, CC to CS6 will be easier. (i've got a hooky verison of CS6 on my personal laptop, just so I'm up to date.).

tbh CC does change things, as in a few year you will need to be on it if you don't want to fall behind. I've always take the view since tattieshop 4 that i don't really mind if i'm a version or 2 behind, nothing much significant changes from version to version. with CC though, that obvious path becomes heavily blurred.

Works if the PDF is created in Illustrator. If the PDF is created by InDesign there isn't that option.

seosamh77 - I've worked on about 15 InDesign files today. That amount of faffage would very quickly become an absolute ball-ache

I have recently subscribed to the CC package, at £6.95 p/m. I can understand your frustrations binners. I did look at it as a bit of a move by adobe. I upgraded as I bought a new PC. My old PC was really struggling with photo and video editing, despite RAM upgrades, the processor simply wouldn't cut it. I was using CS3/Vega Platinum for a long time.

It'll be interesting to see if the prices change.

binners - Member
seosamh77 - I've worked on about 15 InDesign files today. That amount of faffage would very quickly become an absolute ball-ache

i can see why you are irked, i may well be too if i'd loads of external files to contend with, I do understand your predicament.

Out of curiosity, if you had been on a subscription service over the last 15 years(since cs1), would you be up or down cash wise?

basically, have you given Adobe more or less than £8100 (edited based on 15 years @ £45) over the last 15 years?

That's an interesting point seosamh. I do think that at the present subscription pricing is pretty reasonable. £45 a month is ok for a professional tool. The trouble is that I know the way Adobe exploits its monopoly. Once they've shifted everyone over to the subscription model, I can see the prices sky-rocketing. Because theres no competition, they can demand what they want, and you've no option but to pay it

Its what they did once they'd established CS. I don't doubt for a second that they'll do it again

I have recently subscribed to the CC package, at £6.95 p/m.

Whats that for Col. Just Lightroom?

Anyway - it's all dirt cheap nowadays. Waaay back in history our first Mac and LaserWriter II cost £12,000 without software! 😀

However I have very recently brought DXO's OpticPro 10. It does not have any of the cataloging features of LR but limited playing has shown it to be very good with noise management.

Adobe Cloud makes a lot of sense in a professional environment as it's a predictable expense, the trouble is that a large proportion of Lightroom users are enthusiastic amateurs (encouraged by just about every photography magazine you can buy)....

binners, aye guess that's a wait and see..

Because theres no competition

[img] /revision/latest?cb=20121205194057[/img]

I got LR 5.3 free with an Epson Printer. It's OK, but I actually prefer Picassa for general photo management.

You can get a free 30 day trial of Capture One from their website, might be worth a look as an alternative to Lightroom.

Unfortunately I have several hundred thousand files stuck in Lightroom

Stuck how, exactly?

Zoner Pro - what about processing large numbers of RAW images..?

Of course, for ultimate sanctimonious cockbaggery, you should be on Linux and using a massive suite of free programs:

http://www.rileybrandt.com/2015/10/15/foss-photo-flow-2015/

FWIW, I reluctantly signed up to LR CC as it's the only one that currently appears to support my camera's RAW files. Still own CS5.5 and LR5 (not paid for by me 🙂 ).

I already am on Linux 🙂

A quick scan through that link shows darktable has selective editing with masks.. I like that idea.

I'm using CS6 at work but have CS4 at home.

You can Export an IDML file from CS6 which will then open in CS4.

Can you do the same in CC so you can open in an older package?

MM

Zoner Photo Studio Pro looks good - anyone got any experience?

I'm using CS6 at work but have CS4 at home.

You can Export an IDML file from CS6 which will then open in CS4.

Can you do the same in CC so you can open in an older package?

MM

Same deal, but you can get a pluggin for Cs6 if you subscribed to the cloud and you'll be able to open native CC documents. If you aren't subscribed, you'll need to rely on idml files, which go back to cs4. To cs3, you need to save out an inx file from cs4. Funkiness starts happening if you go from cs3 to cs2.

I tried a few trials
lightroom
zoner pro
acdsee pro/ultimate
dx0
a couple of others i forget..

wasnt happy with lightroom subscription or its speed/performance on my laptop and prefer capture one.
sure its got its quirks like they all have but c1 is a nice quality raw developer and is pretty fast.

Whats that for Col. Just Lightroom?

Photoshop and Lightroom.

So we're saying there's no decent alternative to LR then?

Capture one. Better conversion than Adobe and handles noise and moire better too, it's the industry standard tethering software too, I don't know any photographers who don't own a copy. (I don't know if it's used much by wedding or amateur photographers)
What's the problem with paying for 2 very powerful pieces of software for the price of 2 frothy Starbucks coffee concoctions? I owned PS6 but now subscribe and it works out about the same as doing it the old way (missing out an update and waiting for the next one)

I use the CC Photography Plan.

Simply put, it's a bargain. You get all the updates instantly without having the payout for the upgrade like you have to if you own standalone versions.

Lightroom remains my weapon of choice. PS I use rarely, but it's one of those things that you can always do without until that one photo crops up every now and again...

I don't bother with online storage. It's a great idea in theory, but in practice even with the fastest connection it still takes forever to backup an existing library. If you do it from day 0 uploading each batch of photos as you go I can imagine it's a good thing, but uploading and pulling large volumes of data at short notice is a no go.