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With last nights spree and recent attacks, I don't mind admitting that acid attacks really scare me.
Don't ride a moped in London and you should be OK.
[I]Don't [s]ride a moped[/s] be in London and you should be OK. [/I]
Don't [s]ride a moped[/s] be [s]in London[/s] and you should be OK.
Shocking that people are ready to use extreme violence for such small reward.
High streets, shops, school, coppers etc need to be given diphoterine to go with the defibs. If this worries you lot Id suggest carring a small can of it.
It's like the vehicle attacks though. Easy to obtain, extremely difficult to guard against, devastatingly effective, and publicised enough each time it happens to alert more nutters to the possibility.
And the offence carries less punishment.
It's heinous for any reason but to use it in a robbery just to steal some crap is vile. They should be locked up until each victim fully recovers and no I don't give a shit about their human rights, I'd vote for them being given a acid bath if they don't fancy jail.
than what?bikebouy - Member
And the offence carries less punishment.
Knife/Gun crime.
Big piece on R4 about it last week.
Agree. Intelligence that you are carrying it should be considered enough to get you repeatedly shot by the plod.
Yeah, electricians are already fair game so why not plumbers as well?
You mean like how farmers manage to carry guns without getting shot?
You mean like how farmers manage to carry guns without getting shot?
If farmer Giles walked down a busy London street with his gun he'd been getting shot . Strolling round his field shooting vermin I very much dout it .
Shocked to find out there were nearly 500 cases of acid attacks last year!
Dont hold your breath. It's not even carried on front line ambulances.High streets, shops, school, coppers etc need to be given diphoterine to go with the defibs. If this worries you lot Id suggest carring a small can of it.
Solo - Member
Don't [s]ride a moped[/s] be in London and you should be OK.
Sadly, even back in my home town down in Devon a local shop keeper got sprayed with a chemical just to rob the shop. Think he lost sight in an eye as a result.
There's a change in attitude to attack first and take. Rob someone in the street and rather than threaten with a knife and hope they give the money, they'll just stab the person without asking and take the money. Chemicals are even easier to get, and not illegal to carry about either.
If farmer Giles walked down a busy London street with his gun he'd been getting shot . Strolling round his field shooting vermin I very much dout it .
Intelligence on carrying acid would hopefully include some context like whether or not the person is a known criminal or a plumber.
Plumbers dont tend to ride around in mopeds or blinged out Range Rovers.
Carrying acid for that purpose should be a fireatms offence like carrying a tazer is... and shoukd thus warrant the same response.
In my mind, acid is FAR worse than a taser; given the unpleasant choice, is ride the lightning any day over having my face melted off 😯
Sulphuric Acid is one of the named substances in the Explosives Precursors Regulations however it is only a reportable substance and relies on the vendor reporting any suspicious purchases to the police. It should be moved up the scale to a regulated substance that requires a EPP licence for purchase.
Tailwagger - I'd be surprised at that number too, whilst not all attacks will result in hospital treatment (and not all hospital treatment will be properly recorded) I would have expected a closer correlation:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/sep/30/acid-attack-hospital-admissions-have-almost-doubled-in-last-10-years
Especially since that is based on admissions, and most serious cases will result in multiple admissions for follow up treatment etc.
What's your source?
Off the back of the R4 Programme last week, there are moves to criminalise carrying acid with intent to cause harm.. IIRC.
Before the show, I didn't even know this was a "thing" and I work in London.
The motorbike and moped thefts in London has become an embarrassment. The police have done very little to crack down on it and the owners of these bikes and mopeds are having to fight back to keep hold of their property. The thieves have stepped it up too from threatening owners with screwdrivers, hammers and bolt cutters to acid.
Some will say that it's only an object that can be replaced but the cost of insurance in London alone is stupidly high, add a claim to that and many simply can't afford the insurance even if they could replace the bike. When they need the bike for their commuting or for the job it becomes a lot more valuable to the owner.
Bike theft in the UK is a worldwide joke as reported on many international bike forums and lots of advice never to take a bike into London from overseas visitors. If the police cracked down on these thieves who are probably a relatively small group and then the courts punish them to the maximum it would have a bigger effect than trying to restrict the supply of acids which can be easily circumnavigated
What's your source?
The Met's own figures show there were 261 acid attacks in 2015, rising to 458 last year.
Taken from the BBC website report on last nights incident.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40604002
Wonder if they'll target bicycles next - some are worth the same as mopeds and scooters
irrelevant when people aren't even being given the opportunity to surrender them peaceably! As you say these thefts need cracking down on.Some will say that it's only an object that can be replaced
Also carrying a corrosive substance like this needs to legally be treated the same as a knife or even firearm ASAP IMO (with the same obvious exceptions as e.g. a chef being allowed to carry his knives) as otherwise these attacks are just going to get more and more frequent
This new style of attack and theft to me is a door opener to many more people who were too scared to confront someone with an object before and now can use this more cowardly approach.
Things to restrict access to acid and stronger sentences are defiantly needed. Makes me listen to arguments for life means life sentencing and the return of the death sentence more hearing about the violent crimes being committed recently.
Is it true the police aren't allowed to pursue people on mopeds if they aren't wearing a helmet? If so surely there's a point where the criminal accepts personal liability for any injuries they receive whilst trying to escape from plod.
Now if someone would invent a smartphone app controlled remote-deployable seat spike for mopeds...
Police aren't allowed to pursue motorbikes or mopeds at all.
Police aren't allowed to pursue motorbikes or mopeds at all.
The criminals know this and use it to their advantage. Rules need to be changed and criminals injured during pursuit is down to them alone for resisting arrest.
Police aren't allowed to pursue motorbikes or mopeds at all.
That simply isn't true. Some police forces are even allowed to 'sting' motorbikes.
Its disappointint that someone is doing this - you have to feel for the victims. Mayby punishment should be the same and to have a chemical sprayed in their faces?
Things to restrict access to acid and stronger sentences are defiantly needed.
They were talking on the radio this morning about restricting the sale of acids.
Coming soon: alkaline attacks.
followed by lighter fluid and matches, the list is extensive. The punishment needs to be a serious deterrent.
Quite. Can of hairspray and a lighter. Toilet bleach. There are many many substances I wouldn't want directed at my face, controlling the sale isn't the answer. Stiffer penalties for carrying with intent, however...
I'd rather be shot. Criminals would rather shoot people. There's a solution in there somewhere.
Acid attack is a life sentence for the victims. If the victims are blinded then their entire family suffer with no income (assuming main earner), not to mention the lifetime mental torture.
The current law does not work for certain segment of the society using acid as weapon. The law simply does not deter the attacks.
For me the severity of the injury should reflected in the punishment.
If the victims are blinded then attacker(s) should incur life sentence. If possible part of the cost (imprisonment) to be funded by the perpetrators' direct family regardless.
We have one of these gangs near us, I'm in Islington, I see the same kids over and over, completely obvious and blatant illegal riding. I call up if I know they are at their usual hangouts, and call 999 if I see them getting prepared for the muggings. They even come back to the same places after going on the rob, the police just can not get here in time or arrive with enough people to box them in. And so the game continues.....
I remember watching a documentary around a Jamaican ermergency room quite a few years ago now
Where acid attacks were commonplace partly because acid was cheap and readily available and you could do maximum damage with out Risk of ending up on a murder charge.
It is quite worrying if it becomes commonplace here.
Not the best time to have been cutting police numbers.
Not the best time to have been cutting police numbers.
Why, didn't they catch one already? As discussed earlier there has been a reluctance to tackle these bikes thieves in case they get injured. The policies need to changed and the punishment ramped up.
Wonder if they'll target bicycles next - some are worth the same as mopeds and scooters
This is obviously a big worry for me. I'd imagine being on a bicycle it would be harder to fend off an attack, although if they are using acid then maybe not 🙁
My friend had to defend himself from a sustained attack on Tuesday eve (they made three seperate attempts to steal his Vespa, but with a stick and not acid. His main comment was that they did not seem to care who saw them) and I live very close to where the attacks happened last night. Scary times!
Just had another look at my friend's post about his attack, it was at 19.30 so it was the tail end of rush hour and daylight. Crazy! (In Mitcham, which is south London)
I have heard 2nd hand of a few incidents of moped gangs stealing people's bicycles off them over the last few months in North London. none have involved acid or weapons though.
I regularly see scrotes on mopeds with the plates removed hooning around bold as brass, and there's always reports from the school mums of handbag/phone grabbers on mopeds.
There's been reports of scooterists robbing bikes off riders near Richmond park in the last few weeks.
Shitty balls, not good 🙁
One of the victim in London has life changing injury, which means now the victim's entire family suffer a life sentence.
In the far east riding moped(s) to rob people off their valuables are common but they seldom injure the victims, as most are grab and ride. They don't injure the victims because they don't want to attract too much attention from the law. No injury to the victims mean they can get away with their acts more often.
Over there acid attacks are mainly intend for revenge or intend to torture others for life. The attackers get life sentence if caught, sometimes death sentence if victim died.
edit: your "bling" bike will be a target next if they get away with the current attacks.
This was on our club forum
"https://twitter.com/thooper11/status/882499395517861888
There's been a spate of attacks on cyclists in Barnes, Putney and near Richmond Park. The little scrotes have been targeting people on bling bikes riding to the park, a guy was pushed off his Venge, they grabbed it and drove off. Seems to be either super early in the morning or later in the evening - just when you're likely to be heading to the park at this time of year. "
Also they've been targeting bikes left at cafes - they turn up, grab the bike, shoulder it and ride off.
Chewkw, you don't need to search far to see how rampant these thieves are and the violence they will use.
There's been reports of scooterists robbing bikes off riders near Richmond park in the last few weeks.
Got a link to anything?
Not seen anything in local news myself and travel through the park a couple of times a week so be good to know where this happened...
edit:cross posted. Priory Lane, don't often go down that way TBH. Have ridden along Danebury Avenue once. Spidey senses were tingling.
craigxxl - Member
Chewkw, you don't need to search far to see how rampant these thieves are and the violence they will use.
I noticed that a while back of some news in London of the trend in "ride and rob" using moped.
Thanks Kilo, that is really useful stuff. I've passed it on 🙂
#chewkw
For me the severity of the injury should reflected in the punishment.
Why should someone get a lesser sentence just because their aim was poor? Intent should be reflected in the punishment not the injury.
Not many cops are going to be willing to pursue a scooter or motorbike when they face serious criminal charges if anyone is hurt. The Police Federation have just published advice to officers suggesting they no longer do anything like exceed the speed limit or crawl through a red light because there is no protection in law for emergency response drivers.
Priory Lane, don't often go down that way TBH
Priory Lane is one of those funny roads in London that is actually quite isolated other than anyone using the road. There's a pretty long stretch with few houses and therefore few people out and about in the morning or evening so you'd be hard pushed to have witnesses or someone to intervene.
Intent should be reflected in the punishment not the injury.
Up to a point, but I wouldn't favour letting someone off lightly because they hadn't actually intended to blind and disfigure someone, and just thought he'd get a nasty sore cheek. There has to be a punishment related to the reckless disregard for possible consequences.
I agree. It's like setting fire to someones house genuinely not intending to kill anyone but that being an outcome. Any reasonable human should know that could happen.
"Any reasonable human" should be some sort of test in law.
trailwagger - Member
#chewkw
Why should someone get a lesser sentence just because their aim was poor? Intent should be reflected in the punishment not the injury.For me the severity of the injury should reflected in the punishment.
Because there will always be a segment of society that will perceive any harsher sentence as heavy handed by the state. They will oppose. When they oppose the punishment will become "mickey mouse" punishment. Practically useless like now.
Since the "heart or will" is not there totally to deal with such crimes, it would send a message to the society that valuable can be replaced (majority of items) but if they injure the victims they get severely punish. Again, the reason is that you do not want to end up with cells full of potential attackers just because they have been seen as "with intend".
However, if their intend turn into action and as a result the victim is severely injured, then the punishment should be severed. Very, if possible. But in the British society unfortunately the latter is not possible.
Therefore, if you suddenly impose very harsh punishment a segment of the/your/our etc society (those detach from reality) will cry foul to defend the wrong cause.
DrJ - Member
Intent should be reflected in the punishment not the injury.Up to a point, but I wouldn't favour letting someone off lightly because they hadn't actually intended to blind and disfigure someone, and just thought he'd get a nasty sore cheek. There has to be a punishment related to the reckless disregard for possible consequences.
Well, in that case you need to decide how to deal with the punishment if someone is severely injured or disfigured.
The Police Federation have just published advice to officers suggesting they no longer do anything like exceed the speed limit or crawl through a red light because there is no protection in law for emergency response drivers.
Feels like this needs to change
I don't think London has ever been a less appealing place to visit in my lifetime.
Crikey, interesting about Priory Lane, hadn't heard about that.
How does sentencing work when one of the people arrested is 15 years old?
I've never ridden down Priory Lane but I've cycled to Barnes Station on Rocks Lane nearby a couple of times in the early morning. This is helpful to know, thanks.
Fortunately (I hope) I tend to enter/exit Richmond Park from either Richmond or Kingston.
50 quid will buy you a small bottle of diphoterine which will do a much quicker and more effective job of saving your skin than water for say an area he size of your face... the body would need a lot though.. so youd still want to get to water AFTER. If you are worried enough to change your commute pattern you are worried enough to buy some.
Ive personally witnessed it in action and Im a bit shocked that ambulances dont carry it.
I don't commute that way, this is just on the weekends when I'm out for fun.
chip - Member
I remember watching a documentary around a Jamaican ermergency room quite a few years ago now
Where acid attacks were commonplace partly because acid was cheap and readily available and you could do maximum damage with out Risk of ending up on a murder charge.It is quite worrying if it becomes commonplace here.
I have wondered if there's partly a cultural thing where in some countries it's become so normal, and as I mentioned earlier it's the same with knives or guns, where just attack first and take without question is the norm. Not wishing to get all Farage but, when "they come over here", some maybe just behave the same way they did at home. Perhaps then others have adopted the same approach as it's become common here.
Or is it just a general realisation around the world that chemicals are a cheap option, quicker to inflict damage and run away with the goods, and won't leave DNA evidence (and may not get investigated anyway).
Though some chemical attacks are hate, revenge or gang related.
It was rather common a while back in SE Asia or far east, where it was used to inflict long term injury to a person. The idea is not to kill but to inflict as severe a suffering as the attacker(s) can on the targeted person. Most victims in SE Asia/Far East are women. It would be much more "humane" for the victims to die than to suffer for their entire life. Some were totally blinded, unable to breath properly, disfigured unable to eat, cannot talk properly. It is a very cruel action to inflict such suffering to another person. Death is kinder in this sense.deadkenny - Member
I have wondered if there's partly a cultural thing where in some countries it's become so normal, and as I mentioned earlier it's the same with knives or guns, where just attack first and take without question is the norm.
As far as I know this is a rather new-ish weapon used on the general UK public ... just to rob them off their valuables. I mean knives and guns are the traditional weapons of choice for robbery but to use acid? Why? Why inflict permanent injury on ordinary people just to rob them?
If the attackers do not know how to draw the line between inflicting pain and permanent suffering, then the law need to be adjusted quick.
The law is fine it is hard to see how use of acid to the face could ever be less than gbh with intent so carries up to 16 years imprisonment robbery carries up to life .
This is factors from the assault guidelines that increase culpability and so sentence "Use of weapon or weapon equivalent (for example, shod
foot, headbutting, use of acid, use of animal)
Intention to commit more serious harm than actually
resulted from the offence
Deliberately causes more harm than is necessary for
commission of offence
Deliberate targeting of vulnerable victim"
And simple carrying intending to use as a weapon carries 4 years.
The problem isn't the available law its detecting and catching the little swear filters. That is police funding and numbers and the public coming forward with information.
Thegreatape isn't the police federation/union letter just the usual political gaming because a copper from Manchester who drove badly is being done for it .
The Cps public interest test gives a significant level of protection to emergency responders without the Cart Blanche immunity the Fed are campaigning for.
"In the course of their duties, police officers, ambulance staff and fire-fighters may need to drive a vehicle in response to an emergency in a manner which would otherwise be considered unacceptable. Our starting point is that it is very unlikely to be appropriate to proceed with a prosecution on public interest grounds if a police officer, member of ambulance staff or fire-fighter commits a driving offence while responding to an emergency call.
However, every individual case must be considered on its own facts and merits, and when considering whether it is in the public interest to proceed with the case, prosecutors should have regard to the following factors:
The nature of the emergency known to or reasonably perceived by the driver. For example, whether the driver was responding to a 999 call in compliance with the agreed operating practice in that service;
The level of culpability of the driver (including the nature of the driving); and
Whether there is evidence the driver may be a continuing danger to others. For example, such evidence may include relevant convictions or internal disciplinary proceedings against the driver"
The law is fine..
...
And simple carrying intending to use as a weapon carries 4 years.
Interesting thanks crankboy. Out of interest, is that 4 years the same for carrying a knife, gun or other weapon with intent?
Be a shame to ban the sale of all acids, as some news sources are calling for, as I'm sure legitimate use is much more common than illegal and there are plenty of nasty alternatives lurking under your sink or in the chemicals aisle of any big DIY store. But if it really is such a growing problem then [i]something[/i] public will need to be done.
crankboy - could well be, I wasn't aware of a particular case but it wouldn't surprise me. I had assumed there would be some sort of leeway within the public interest test but never got round to looking, so cheers!
Graham 4 years maximum is for offensive weapons, ie anything designed adapted or intended to be a weapon, firearms as in guns normally have a 5 year minimum sentence. Knives can be offensive weapons or bladed articles . a case called Povey guides the court to sentence at the harsh end of powers for carrying knives its rationale would transfer straight over to acid .
Bit on the radio yesterday and someone phoned in with their story. They'd pull up in car with windows open at a junction or something, and these guys come up to them and chuck bleach in their face. They'd managed to get away, called the police, but they never turned up. Said no resources available, and that was that.
Stabbed or shot, and sure enough they'd be there in an instant.
I think it's more that they see it as a low priority crime despite the horrendous lifelong injuries it can cause, and little chance of catching them. If it's not treated seriously then it will only get worse.
I think it's more that they see it as a low priority crime
I don't think this is true
Said no resources available
but that is, regrettably.
However, every individual case must be considered on its own facts and merits
From memory, the only points my dad ever got on his license was from crashing his police car responding to a call.
GrahamS - Member
Be a shame to ban the sale of all acids, as some news sources are calling for, as I'm sure legitimate use is much more common than illegal and there are plenty of nasty alternatives lurking under your sink or in the chemicals aisle of any big DIY store. But if it really is such a growing problem then something public will need to be done.
Yes, it would be silly to have a complete ban that for legitimate use. Just like knives. I mean do we ban all kitchen knives?
deadkenny - Member
They'd managed to get away, called the police, but they never turned up. Said no resources available, and that was that.
[b](If it is true for such attack)[/b] That response by the police is a way of legitimising taking actions into own hands. No two ways about that. The victim should use that as proof in the court.
If that is the case then you will see the beginning of people or society taking action into their own hands to protect themselves.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40624453
Bets on how long before complaints of police heavy handedness?
It's difficult, you don't want people committing crimes with impunity, but at some point you have to use overpowering force. I don't know the circumstances of this incident but round my way moped crime has been on the rise.
morphio - Member
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40624453Bets on how long before complaints of police heavy handedness?
Not heavy handed at all.
That's the normal part of the job.
I don't think it's heavy handed, but I'm sure someone will be complaining. I can see how it's difficult to stop people on mopeds, and it sounds like the rules are currently making it very difficult for the police.