Some of you may know I run a Kayak website. I've just posted a new article written by a fellow paddler following an incident that required Mountain Rescue and the Coast Guard rescue helicopter.
The article contains information put together by the local MRT team. It might help.
Admn - if not appropriate please delete.
While it initially seemed like a great idea, I now have reservations over What3words.
Seems it is a pay for access system. The app is free but if you want to decode lots of requests each month you have to pay for access. Up to a certain threshold it's free. Over that you need to pay, emergency and rescue services included from what I've seen (if that's wrong though, then my points below are less applicable).
There's the question of the usefulness of the system itself.
The encoding of your GPS location into three words provides a solution to the scenario where coordinates are potentially given incorrectly, e.g. mixing 2 numbers up or the wrong number being heard*. Giving the wrong number in a coordinate could still give what appears to be a valid location of the sender, but in reality is quite a way off. With a word being misheard*, the location that the words resolve will be much more obviously way off. E.g. not in the same country as the sender says they are, or you expect them to be in.
*this is the crux, the sole situation I see this app as being useful is if the sender is only able to relay their location by voice. This would be useful on a call to the emergency services where you've worked out your location using an app on your phone. Relaying 3 words is much less error prone than a series of digits.... but if you have a voice connection you'd also likely be able to send an SMS. Other apps, e.g. OS Locate, can send full grid references or coordinates accurately. You might only be able to send an SMS. Again other apps will do this accurately.
Also the app uses singular and plural versions of words, e.g. photo and photos. These could be easily misheard, but the error would likely be obvious when decoding.
The app did help save some people's lives on Ben Nevis recently. But was this due to the app's ingenuity or was more the success of their marketing strategy? Did they have the app on their phone already because they'd seen it advertised, or did MRT tell them to download it and use it? Those stranded were not native English speakers.
Just a comment:
Calling 999 should be a last resort for life-threatening situations or when you really are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
Every rescue service I have ever spoken to has said they would much rather you called them early, they don’t want called needlessly but the “last resort” might put people off calling as soon as it is clear a problem is developing. Even if they don’t deploy initially they can start to prepare, know where you are etc. waiting until you believe you are really in the shit is probably waiting too long.
Over that you need to pay, emergency and rescue services included from what I’ve seen
My understanding is that the cost comes if you want to integrate it into your telephone response management system*. If you are happy to use the website there is no limit (there may be some cookie based cap - but I’ve experimented and not hit it so it must be high). OSGB integration isn’t without its costs and license fees either. Yes it’s marketing hype - there are other ways of describing position and some may be better in some cases.
*if mapping providers should do this free then why isn’t the management system free, or the computer it runs on or the phone lines than connect the user etc.
What3words has an API that could be plausibly integrated into any call management system software. You'd pay someone with experience of the call management system software to do this though, not What3words.
What3words control access with tokens, these have limits on the number of requests you can make a month. But they could give limitless ones to the emergency and rescue services.
Perhaps What3words have written a "plugin" to commonly used call management software and that's what you pay for?
OSGB integration isn’t without its costs and license fees either.
OS grid references are effectively free / out of copyright. There are dozens of formulas or open source libraries available for converting to and from then. So you can add it to whatever system you like.
Whereas with What3words, it is all owned by one company. You are relying on them, and they may stop providing the service, or charge more etc.
Also, I agree. This reads as bizarre advice in the article.
Calling 999 should be a last resort for life-threatening situations or when you really are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
I think it's just written badly. Perhaps it should have been
Calling 999 should be a last resort, only for life-threatening situations or when you really are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
Even then, better safe than sorry. I don't think people should be deterred from calling 999
Ignoring the debate over what3words for the moment I think there is some really valuable information in the post, so thank you Phil for taking the time.
But they could give limitless ones to the emergency and rescue services.
In their place I would too. At least until I'd milked the PR enough to get my proprietary system deeply embedded so that other attractions like hotels and restaurants felt obliged to pay me. After all there's no marginal cost.
I'd also pay people to feature my system prominently in their articles on how to get rescued.
OS grid references are effectively free / out of copyright. There are dozens of formulas or open source libraries available for converting to and from then. So you can add it to whatever system you like.
An 8 figure OS reference could be encoded to 4 words quite simply.
Thread hijack, but relevant...
Anyone know if the MRT and Helimed callsigns can communicate on PMR446? MRT most likely can but I dont know about the Coastguard and Rescue/Air Ambulance helis.
Calling 999 should be a last resort for life-threatening situations or when you really are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
This might read like it's worded a bit harshly, but bear in mind you live in a country where people have called 999 because KFC ran out of chicken.
I had followed the Nevis rescue with interest, and had a discussion with others. I had forgotten the accuracy of e.g. OS Locate app - you get a 8 figure (two letter grid and 6 digit reference) which is accurate to +/- 65m it shows at the moment. W3W are saying 5m accuracy, which is a pretty good step up on tight mountain terrain.
Should have been titled "whats your emergency".
I'm surprised that the open source community hasn't come up with a decent alternative to w3w.
OS Locate app – you get a 8 figure (two letter grid and 6 digit reference) which is accurate to +/- 65m it shows at the moment. W3W are saying 5m accuracy, which is a pretty good step up on tight mountain terrain.
Yes and no, you could just give a traditional lat/long reference which is as accurate as you have time to keep reading the numbers out. And only takes a few button presses on your Garmin.
As for the usefulness of that accuracy, if they can't see you from a helicopter within a 100x100 square, your gps can't see the sattelite! And the big advantage of OS grid refs (or lat/long) is you can find them on a sheet of paper. At some point in the chain someone is going to have to convert your three words to a grid reference to give to the helicopter or MRT so they can point to it on a piece of paper.
I’m surprised that the open source community hasn’t come up with a decent alternative to w3w.
Eightythree, Sixtynine, seventyfive (assumes you can at least remember you were in Manchester before taking a load of pills).
Google have created Plus Codes. https://plus.codes/
They are all free and open source, and can work offline. And have some more advantages over What3worda, eg you can use a shorter code if you don't need so much precision. And they are already built in to Google Maps, and plenty of other apps, eg OsmAnd or AlpineQuest.
Anyone know if the MRT and Helimed callsigns can communicate on PMR446? MRT most likely can but I dont know about the Coastguard and Rescue/Air Ambulance helis.
MRT cannot within standard radios. We are currently moving to Digital but on both old, and new radios, I do not believe we can access PMR446
Asking for police rather than ambulance sounds insignificant but is actually a bigger deal than you may think. Police will get straight on to MRT who will assess if it is a suitable job. Ambulance have been known to try and resolve themselves, send their Special Ops team or otherwise wait until all other options exhausted before getting on to MRT. If you know it is MRT type job, get on to police first.
Calling 999 should be a last resort for life-threatening situations or when you really are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
To me this reads, if you're in a life-threatening situation or you really are stuck between a rock and a hard place, you should call 999 as a last resort.
In that situation the first thing I'd do is call 999, not the last
We had this debate 6 months ago. I really don't understand the antipathy towards what3words but it comes out every time.
Either they're evil capitalist scum creaming off the emergency services budgets so they can't even afford plasters, they're getting us hooked like heroine addicts before they either jack their prices up/withdraw the service or there are a multitude of alternatives (of variable complexity) so why bother?
I had reason to be picked up by ambulance last year. Using what3words, it found us in the middle of nowhere in 15 mins. Yes, anecdotal I know and yes, the alternatives might have done as well. But, the process was simple, foolproof and effective.
Ultimately it doesn't matter what you use so long as it is accurate and easy to use. The easier the better when dealing with the general proletariat...
Most android phones have:-
Android Emergency Location Service (ELS) is a supplemental service that sends enhanced location directly from Android handsets to emergency services when an emergency call is placed.
And is apparently functioning on 99% of active android devices.
This might read like it’s worded a bit harshly, but bear in mind you live in a country where people have called 999 because KFC ran out of chicken.
It’s precisely because of those media stories that I think we need to reiterate that calling for help early is a good thing to do. Mainstream media is full of such evil horrors as people calling for nonsense that we are discouraged from calling for help. Go and read coastguard press releases they often remark on calling for help before it was really an emergency. I’m sure the MRTs share a similar view - they’d rather be called by you (via the police) to say we know we have a problem, Here is our plan to deal with it. Perhaps whilst it’s still daylight - perhaps someone in a 4x4 comes to meet you. Than have a search starting in the dark with a message from a now much worse group who’s mobile phone is about to die. Even if 4/5 times the initial response was not really needed and you could have limped on with a bit more Rule 5; but for the other 20% it potentially saves a major operation or at least makes it a better planned one.
Thread hijack, but relevant…
Anyone know if the MRT and Helimed callsigns can communicate on PMR446? MRT most likely can but I dont know about the Coastguard and Rescue/Air Ambulance helis.
CG heli’s cannot.
Not sure if any Air Ambs can, but if they have the capability it’s probably for some internal purpose and so nobody is routinely listening.
OS grid references are effectively free / out of copyright
OS mapping most definitely are not out of copyright. The grid ref itself is translatable into multiple different grids - but all grid systems are compromises.
The Public sector license to use OS mapping costs £55M per annum, and has various restrictions on use. My understanding is some 999 call centres can’t display an OSGB ref direct in their system (the presumably can open a browser though!). And even fewer field personnel can display them on the road!
I said the grid references are out of copyright. Not the mapping. A grid ref can easily be converted to latitude/longitude, then displayed on top of Google Maps or OpenStreetMap, or any other digital maps, or loaded onto a GPS.
Does seem like a poor system if 999 operators or emergency services are unable to use grid references (or other popular coordinate formats).
A grid ref can easily be converted to latitude/longitude,
But is open to same translation issues that dmorts identified. And if it's just a work around so that you don't have to use a particular system that you feel antipathy towards then it's massively counterproductive, no?
But are random words really less prone to error than a series of numbers? Plenty of options for words that sound similar, or different spellings, or mispronunciations etc. What about people who speak other languages?
Interestingly Lochaber MRT have a slightly different stance on location preferring grid references
We have had a lot of inquiries about the use of the What Three Word app - it was a life saver on Monday. However, it is
not the panacea, as like all technology it can fail - all it needed was for the casualties to have been a few metres lower and they would have had no mobile coverage to relay their location to us, or the batteries could have easily have failed in extreme cold. A small miscommunication when the information first came through to us gave a location in Canada. If you plan to use smart phone technology to navigate or think it will give you info/connectivity to get you out a situation, it could fail. You should always not be without having a map and compass and more important, the skills to use them. Same goes for winter gear such as ice axe and crampons (be able to use) and suitable clothing.
and
What to do in an emergency
Decide if your situation can be dealt with by your group. It can take several hours for a rescue team to reach you, depending on the location and weather. The best plan may be to continue descending, if safe to do so.
If you do require assistance dial 999 and ask for POLICE, then MOUNTAIN RESCUE.
Do not expect a rescue to be immediate and do not expect a helicopter.When in contact with the emergency services be prepared to provide information relating to the emergency. The following information will be asked for:
Your name and contact number
The nature of the problem or injury
Location including grid reference / name of climb
Name, age, and medical history of casualty
The weather conditions where you are
A member of LMRT will normally attempt to call you back to gain further details that may be required, or to update you on the progress of a rescue.
I am sure I saw something else in the aftermath of the incident on Ben Nevis about location and grid references
