A friend of a friend works as a mechanic at some posh car dealer or other, I think Lexus but could be wrong.
Today he was working on a vehicle, used the machine to drain the aircon. Said machine gave the green light that the system was empty.
A bit later a colleague wandered in, "you OK mate? It smells of gas in here."
Long story short, he's spent the afternoon in hospital for a battery of blood tests, X-rays etc. They've now discharged him, but told him to come back if he has any further symptoms.
Now, I appreciate that it's probably not a great career move to sue your current employer. But what's the best course of action here, presumably he's entitled to some sort of compensation? He's already spoken with HR I believe, though I don't know the content of that discussion.
Cheers.
Has he actually suffered any ill effects, or was it precautionary? More info needed really.
Not sure what loss he's suing for? Nothing detected after tests in hospital and discharged home? Unless gets ill and is linked to today's incident why would he feel entitled to anything?
Sometime shit happens and kit malfunctions, surely if his employer acts in this and ensures kit working thne what more can he want/ be entitled to?
You say hospital says come back if any further symptoms but you don't say he had any to start with?
He's had tests but you haven't mentioned anything about actual injuries.
Speak to a union.
Does RIDDOR apply to his incident ?
http://www.hse.gov.uk/riddor/examples-reportable-incidents.htm
Compo, get in there
For us our HR folks would pass it on to our insurance if there was anything to be treated/covered. There wouldn't be anything just for the risk of getting something or being exposed to something. Shouldn't really be a problem for HR as insurance will cover this
told him to come back if he has any further symptoms
My bold. This infers he suffered some ill-effects?
He needs to get used to being called Elsa or Frosty the Snowman for the next few years.
Bloody hell, how STW could this post be.
I hope someone clocked him out before he left for the hospital 😜
Is he in a union? If yes, refer to their legal team for advice.
If not, ask employer whether incident has been reported to HSE - as they, presumably, wouldn't wish for a recurrence.
Has workshop equipment testing been carried as required?
Unless there are any long-term effects I cannot see what redress - including compensation - he could realistically expect.
why would he feel entitled to anything?
I've no idea whether he feels anything of the sort. Rather, I thought he might. Long-term effects or no, I wouldn't be too cheery about work hospitalising me for an afternoon.
This infers he suffered some ill-effects?
Feeling sick, dizzy / faint, difficulty breathing AFAIK. I'm working on third-hand info so not 100% certain.
I would expect an investigation. Even if its just the company that services the kit, assuming it gets serviced and a review of procedures to prevent a reoccurrence if possible.
As for compo I suppose it depends if there's been negligence and the severity of injury.
Edit
What Frankconway said.
Has workshop equipment testing been carried as required?
Exactly the question I asked.
Report through the comapny accident reporting procedure where an investigation to determine the root cause of the incident should take place. What is the person going to sue for? What loss has occurred?
Is the friend of a friend asking you for advice then?
Logged as a near miss or incident maybe - What was the injury? We need more information.
I'm sure that would be reportable to HSE
http://www.hse.gov.uk/riddor/dangerous-occurences.htm
Hazardous escapes of substances
27 The unintentional release or escape of any substance which could cause personal injury to any person other than through the combustion of flammable liquids or gases.
The substances covered by this definition may be in any form: liquid, solid (eg powder), gaseous or vapour and may include, eg:
substances which may be hazardous to health (eg asbestos, phosgene, toluene diisocyanate)
substances which may be either corrosive or potentially hazardous by virtue of their temperature or pressure (eg nitric acid, molten metal, liquid nitrogen)
This definition includes incidents which present a fire or explosion hazard (eg combustible powders), but not in relation to releases of flammable liquids or gases, where the relevant thresholds in 26 [link to paragraph 26] are not exceeded.
Examples of the kinds of incident covered by the definition are escapes arising from the failure or breakage of plant, pipes, equipment or apparatus; failures of process control; the operation of a relief valve or bursting disc where the escaping substance is not safely controlled or directed, and spillages from containers and equipment.
Releases from plant etc during the normal course of operation or maintenance (eg during sampling, packaging or draining of lines) that are sufficiently well controlled to ensure that no person is put at risk would not be reportable.
In some cases, the decision as to whether or not an incident is reportable will be straightforward, eg if a person is exposed to a hazardous substance at a level which exceeds established safe limits (eg a Workplace Exposure Limit).
However, most incidents require judgement. Various factors are relevant including: the nature of the substance and its chemical, physical and toxicological properties, the amount which escaped and its dispersal, and whether people were, or could foreseeably have been, exposed to a significant risk as a consequence of the escape.
Does refrigerant gas have any smell, or after effects if inhaled,its usually illegal to vent refrigerant gas to atmosphere i remember from my time working with a air con specialist. Larg fines if seen or reported.
Is the friend of a friend asking you for advice then?
Not especially, I've not spoken to him. I'm trying to be helpful.
I love this place, but some folk do like to try to make things difficult.
Sounds like a Riddor to me.
https://www.hse.gov.uk/riddor/report.htm#
/blockquote>Seriously!? What criteria do you think has been met? The closest seems to be (27), but that in no way relates to this event.
As far as I can tell from the MSDSs for the common modern car aircon gases R1234yf and R134A are non toxic.
The HSE actually have a guide for working on aircon systems:
If your mate really wants compo and has actually suffered harm, work out which bit of the guidance hasn't been followed by his employer. Although it is likely you mate wasn't following some training or rule and will get sacked.
For me it depends if procedures have been followed or not and if the precautions taken were reasonable.
Health and safety art work act etc
So essentially, the usual predictable cock-knockery aside, the consensus is "his employer needs to perform an investigation." Yes?
IIRC a hospital trip needs to be reported but I don't think there's a case for Lawyers4U here.
I'd be asking for that machine to be tested though.
There's not enough information to say anything.
What gas was there a smell of? It may have had nothing to do with the aircon machine.
Why did he go to hospital? Did he go of his own volition? Did his employer send/take him to hospital as a precautionary measure?
What, if any effects did he experience?
Was he using the machine correctly?
Is he competent to use the machine?
Is a Risk Assessment in place and being followed.
Is a COSHH Assessment in place?
Was he wearing any required PPE?
Is the machine in a safe state, properly maintained and working correctly?
Without the answers to those and other questions it is not possible to say if the incident is RIDDOR, if anyone was at fault and if any claim can be made.
Sounds like either the machine to recover the gas was faulty or hasn't been connected properly.
Refrigerant gases are heavier than air so can sit in your lungs and cause asphyxiation if the concentration is high enough. Not sure either outcome would warrant any compensation though unless there's any future health problems.
I'm sorry..... but isn't "your mate" jumping ahead of himself a wee bit?
Is it possible that the Air-Con equipment was indeed CORRECTLY maintained and that YOUR MATE (the user, like) operated it incorrectly?
Is that a possibility? I mean really? Even a tiny possibility of your mate not operating it correctly or is he some Air-Con guru who has won International Awards for his 500% safety record when using every type of Air-Con system know to man (and then went on to set up "Air-Con Rescue" specialising in using complicated Air-Con systems to refloat sunken Russian Nuclear subs or something? Again with a TOTALLY unblemished success rate over a 50 year career? Really is your mate THAT good?
The weakest point in any system is the "end-user." That's where I would start the investigation. I'd also ignore my "mate" Big Kev who says management are all ****s "cuz they're always making us use crap gear."
the consensus is “his employer needs to perform an investigation.” Yes?
Yes.
They have a legal duty to carry out suitable and sufficient risk assessements for the work carried out and put in control measures to mitigate the risks identified as far as reasonably practicable. Employees are legally obliged to work to those risk assessments.
The fact that someone was sent to hospital for treatment suggests either the risk assessment, the control measures or the employees working practice was not suitable and or sufficient and the company is duty bound to find out which and put in measures to prevent happening again.
but isn’t “your mate” jumping ahead of himself a wee bit?
Please read the rest of the thread before being a bellend.
In fairness cougar, your only question in the OP is - 'presumably he’s entitled to some sort of compensation?'
You can hardly blame people for commenting on this. If you didn't want those responses maybe ask a different question?
Bit bellendy to get the hump if people are responding to your question?
Fair point.
But it was my question not "my mate's" question and I've explained this several times now. The onus is on me if I worded it badly, but if someone's going to come in all guns blazing after reading the OP and then skipping to the end then is it so outlandish that I got the hump a bit?
So the hospital says come back if he has any further symptoms, but you haven't stated why he actually went there!
Give some actual info and you might get some answers.
No need to start name calling when your op is severely lacking in content.
Erm...
but isn’t “your mate” jumping ahead of himself a wee bit?
Please read the rest of the thread before being a bellend.
Oh....
But what’s the best course of action here, presumably he’s entitled to some sort of compensation?
Pot kettle and black there.
What actual injury has your mate suffered? What were the outcome of the tests? If it was precautionary that he stayed in then no, almost certainly no compensation. If there is injury, someone hasn’t done something properly. That’s not right and needs sorting. This is what an investigation is for. This someone does include your mate as well as the company...
If every riddor got riddor'd the hse website would fold trust me!
you haven’t stated why he actually went there!
Apart from the follow-up post where I did, to the best of my knowlege.
The lad in question is my girlfriend's daughter's boyfriend, and what little information I have has been passed via that food chain so it's piecemeal at best. I appreciate that it's lacking and I also appreciate that what I should have asked in the first place is "what should he do next?" but I was rushing to pop out a quick post before making a start on tea.
I was kinda hoping for a bit of advice like "tell him to talk to HSE" that I could pass on to the young lad, rather than successive posters lining up in front of an open goal for character assassinations because I hadn't proof-read my OP six times.
He reports the incident, it gets investigated any action required will be taken. That’s it.
Oh a manager and/or investigator can and should decide if it warrants an HSE report.
He shouldn't be reporting it to the hse, that's his employer's job. I'd also suggest speaking with the management etc before going off on the whole hse tangent. It may not even be reportable. It clearly needs addressing but going straight in on the whole hse/compo angle will do him no favours whatsoever and unfortunately may single him out as a "troublemaker"
And.....before any of you start bleating I'm not condoning that possible behaviour by the management but it does happen.
I'm amazed that you've got a girlfriend!
That's a bit harsh and personal crikey, unless you are cougar's boyfriend? In which case, carry on.
I'm amazed you've got an account. (-:
In hindsight, I apologise unreservedly for my previous insult. Sorry, Simon. I should know better.
Come on, it was a joke intended to help defuse late evening grumpiness, although I should also apologise unreservedly for something and something...
No problem Cougar......... It's all good.
I think that I was just trying to get across that sometimes "management" are painted as the ones who have all the power and responsibility. I've dealt with a few cases where the employee was clearly at fault but couldn't or wouldn't take responsibility for their own stupidity.
How about a employee who used his finger (yes, FINGER!) to try and slow down a cylindrical grinder in Engineering Workshop?
or how about a site foreman whose job it was pick up rubbish, who then tripped on rubbish that he had discarded and had not picked up?
There are people out there who think that "everyone else" is to blame for their misfortune or lack of foresight. I remember the time that my mum came back from a shopping trip in her car. She admitted to my dad that she had reversed into a parked car when she was leaving the car park to come home. Her justification? Well, "It wasn't there when I parked the car BEFORE I went into the shop!" Of course it was my dads job to back up my mum and since that incident they have both lived in a bubble of "it can't possibly be MY fault!"
........****IN open ya eyes woman!.......
Regarding the OP's original question - I'd say he's not entitled to any compensation.
Are the garage's tax affairs in order?
If he's been swallowing refrigerant I would think he's more likely to get condensation
I was actually being serious about speaking to a union. If nothing else they should hopefully be able to advise what the correct action is to take and the expected outcome. Costs a couple of pints a month for membership and they may even give some free advice if it's an easy question.
To be honest though with that amount of removal from the source it's hard to say what, if anything happened. Did he take himself to hospital or did his employer? Was the equipment quarantined until further testing can be carried out? Was it properly maintained? Was he suitably qualified and experienced to be operating that equipment? Basically has the employer failed in their duty of care at any point? Conversely was the equipment being used according to approved guidance and procedures? Had the equipment been inspected prior to use? Had the employee failed in their own personal H&S obligations?
I don't expect you to answer these but that's the sort of questions I imagine would be asked to determine any sort of blame.
Why does he need to speak to a union? What expertise will they have with the individual event. I refer to my earlier point re "troublemaker". The last thing any business wants is the hse crawling all over them, geed up by an over zealous union man, when it may not be necessary. Speak to the management team, assess the incident and any injuries in house and go from there. If cougars girlfriends mum's brothers husbands wife or whatever it was is unhappy with the outcome and isn't happy with the hierarchy of risk management put in place then go from there.
And after the in house investigation report under riddor if it is deemed necessary. Varying time scales apply.
I was actually being serious about speaking to a union. If nothing else they should hopefully be able to advise what the correct action is to take and the expected outcome
Report the incident, await outcome of investigation.
That’ll be 2 pints thanks.
Unions also have and H&S role and depending on the size of the workplace etc there may well be a union safety rep on site or they may be covered by a full time officer from outside the workplace. H&S is a collaborative exercise but union involvement is there to protect the workforce and to ensure that emplyees do not get blamed for management failings
Every incident I have seen where there has been risk to people has always been multifactorial - the " Swiss cheese" model. A series of small failures create the conditions for a large failure.
It does not sound like a RIDDOR to me
Colleagues at one place I worked were testing the fire safety system and found it worked very well - by locking the doors and filling the room with CO2, whilst they were still in there.
Has workshop equipment testing been carried as required?
^This. If I'll effects have been suffered it would be reportable under RIDDOR.
PUWER come into play with regards to the working condition of the test equipment.
The incident would also involve COSHH regulations as well.
Complete the accident book and it all goes on from there. If gas escapes are on the HSE 'to do' list when the report gets to them his employer will get a visit. Don't hold your breath for anything to happen. (pun intended)
Why does he need to speak to a union? What expertise will they have with the individual event. I refer to my earlier point re “troublemaker”. The last thing any business wants is the hse crawling all over them, geed up by an over zealous union man
This tells me all I need to know about your understanding and dealings with unions, that is to say very little by the sound of it.
The thread title does include "What would Singletrack Do..."
So when the answer is ignore the facts, insult the OP, accuse him of 'asking for a (special) friend' and then finally disappear up it's own arse that is exactly What Singletrack Would Do...
In a nutshell. 🙂
And after the in house investigation report under riddor if it is deemed necessary. Varying time scales apply.
RIDDOR events need to be reported to the HSE within 10 days.
A car will only have around 1.5kg of refrigerant in it. I cant imagine that any release at this level woul even be detectable by smell.
In a previous life I was in a small room when a cylinder released 30kg of refrigerant in it. No noticeable smell to it.
No Riddor, no compensation.
Record as a near miss to start with and investigate further.
Loads of variables to this, the main one being not to run in there throwing accusations at the employer without considering whether all rules and precautions have been followed. Even something as simple as being aware to have a adequate ventilation (open shutter or turn on an extractor fan) but not doing so.
We had an incident where an employee went to hospital after finishing work. A relative rang up the manager and starting ranting at the boss about carbon monoxide poisoning, and then revealed that the suspected cause was the employees generator.
It turned out the generator had either been run whilst inside the van, or directly outside the door, which landed the employee on a disciplinary.
RIDDOR events need to be reported to the HSE within 10 days.
Not according to the hse
This tells me all I need to know about your understanding and dealings with unions, that is to say very little by the sound of it.
Posted 5 hours ago
Please enlighten me on the car garage union that would advise the "victim" of any more information than the initial proper investigation would come up with.
Writyson. Sorry you are right on timescales. I was thinking of this as a dangerous occurrence, however there is a variance of timescale depending on reporting to a medical practitioner. Below taken from the HSE website.
In cases of a reportable death, specified injury, or
dangerous occurrence, you must notify the enforcing
authority without delay. You must report within 10
days of the incident.
Over-seven-day injuries must be reported within 15
days of the incident.
Diseases should be reported as soon as a registered
medical practitioner (RMP) notifies you in writing that
your employee suffers from a reportable work-related
disease.
How to report
For general advice on how you should report, see the
RIDDOR pages on HSE’s website: www.hse.gov.uk/
riddor.
All incidents can be reported online, however a
telephone service remains for reporting fatal and
specified injuries only.
Your comments regarding companies and the use are very worrying though.
In what way? Internal review and investigation of an incident are surely the most proficient way of determining the cause and reason of any incident occurring in the workplace and to stop it happening again. I live in the real world and not one written in eutopia (sic).
In what way?
The last thing any business wants is the hse crawling all over them
No, the last thing any business needs is a serious injury or death on one of their sites. I know this through bitter experience. Employees have died within one of my previous employers doing the same job as me. "It could have been me" is a cliched term but apt in the situation I was in.
Is it this real world wrightyson?
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12370485.scottish-coal-fined-pound400000-over-double-death/
That's some utopia.
He shouldn’t be reporting it to the hse, that’s his employer’s job
No it isn't. Any employee can report against an employer. The hse website does seem to mention the protection you have when whistleblowing against an employer.
Oh sorry, did I condone death in the workplace in my post?
The hse are thread bare, they self fund, even though they dont like anyone to know that? The main problem is the hate grows for them when we know they fund themselves by fining "us."
I will repeat, any worthwhile employer will review and rework their working practices, take on board feed back from employees, and spend as much time as possible not trying to kill anyone.
The days of going to work and possibly not coming home should be left in the mines and mills.
Here is a link to the HSE site on rights of whistleblowers.
I am not saying it's the case here, but how often might an employer expect employees to use equipment they have been inadequately trained to use, or how often to employees cut corners or not follow risk assessments when using equipment. There could be many issues involved in this case. Speaking to a union rep is not necessarily a bad thing.
Member
Oh sorry, did I condone death in the workplace in my post?
No you didn't, but you quite clearly stated the last thing an employer needs. I dare you to disagree with me on that particular point!
The days of going to work and possibly not coming home should be left in the mines and mills.
Sadly it's not, and an atmosphere of perpetuating employees as troublemakers and that only employers should report issues to the HSE does not help.
Is there such a thing as a "union rep" for a garage? I'll be dead honest I don't know.
I've seen the hse in action, two up, dog with a bone. Justified as somebody lost a digit but a raft of changes didn't ease their intrigue! Now run by one of the most litigious American companies I've ever come across and the hse are regulated, (paid if theres a problem) visitors..
You work for the hse athgray?
For the record I did mention if after investigation the employee was unhappy they should approach the hse personslly...
Is there such a thing as a “union rep” for a garage? I’ll be dead honest I don’t know.
I’ve seen the hse in action, two up, dog with a bone. Justified as somebody lost a digit but a raft of changes didn’t ease their intrigue! Now run by one of the most litigious American companies I’ve ever come across and the hse are regulated, (paid if theres a problem) visitors..
I dont know if this garage worker had a union rep, however is slagging of the HSE supposed to bring employees with concerns about their employers back on side?
You may berate the HSE, however if an employee has worries about the health and safety provision of their employer where do you suggest they go?
Woaahhh there, I'm not berating the hse at all. From the outset if you read, I suggested the best practice was to work in house to reduce, blah blah you know the hierarchy im sure, the incidence of it happening again. In the op's case it would appear at this time a one off incidence of low consequence does not require the involvement of the hse.
If it happened again on monday then hell yeah we need to sort this.
I genuinely dont mean to come across as flippant.
You work for the hse athgray?
No I don't. I am now a teacher, but as a site based engineer for 15 years my responsibilities included monitoring fellow workers hearing for the Noise at Work Regs using a sound meter, inspecting ladders and power tools under PUWER, making sure that the COSHH folder was up to date and accessible to all, safe operation of blasting operations to ensure that we had no RIDDOR occurrences, conducting whole body and hand/arm vibration surveys and drug testing employees to comply with site rules which meant handling containers of piss and conducting site inductions to ensure awareness of site rules and risk assessments.
I have great respect for site agents who legally carry a large can, managing huge health and safety implications of those they work along side, whilst making sure they go home with a pay packet each day.
On the flip side, I have little respect for company H&S 'experts' with little real responsibility and teflon shoulders.
Regarding compensation, if you're thinking that it may be owed as it could have been a fatal incident, I'm afraid that doesn't count for much.
STW may or may not remember my thread from last year where I missed death by about two inches due to negligence on the part of a supermarket. I've learned that near misses count for nothing unless you can proove a resulting trauma (thankfully it turns out I'm quite resilient on that front).
Unless officially traumatised, you only get money for actual injury and out of pocket expenses.
STW classic this thread.
1. Person A uses garage air con equipment.
2. A bit later - a work colleague of Person A comes into room and asks if person A is ok, and comments that it smells of gas in the room.
3. After being asked this, Person A instantly, or very soon after, begins to feel sick, dizzy / faint, and experience difficulty breathing.
4. Person A attends hospital and has battery of blood tests, xrays etc ... where I presume there was no physical cause found for these claimed symptoms.
5. Person A is discharged from hospital with a standard `come back if you have any further symptoms' ...
6. Cougar asking if Person A can claim compensation for this.
My own thoughts are that Person A should pay the NHS compensation for wasting their time.
Refrigerant doesn't smell of "gas" assuming generic synthetic methane smell .....
Maybe your friend farted violently.?
I’ve learned that near misses count for nothing unless you can proove a resulting trauma
Well, I met him today so have a bit more information but not much.
He almost collapsed at work, which is why they took him to hospital. The concern was seemingly carbon monoxide poisoning (whether this is a primary component in aircon systems or there were other contributory factors involved, or even whether this was something someone made up even, I don't know at this juncture).
Apparently he spent most of Saturday in tears, presumably as shock / realisation hit. He said (not to me) that he really doesn't want to go back to work on Monday.
STW classic this thread.
Only reading the OP and then skipping to the end to have a pop? Yeah, pretty typical of some posters.
Only reading the OP and then skipping to the end to have a pop? Yeah, pretty typical of some posters.
in his defence - having read the whole thing he didnt miss a thing. Zero facts were added to story after the OP
If your special friend doesn’t go back to work due to “the incident” , the shit really should hit the fan and it becomes a lost time accident too. Also reportable.
I also have to agree with wrightson, on the first page , “reportable riddor etc”... ha. 😉
in his defence – having read the whole thing he didnt miss a thing. Zero facts were added to story after the OP
True, but I was thinking mostly around the final point.
If your special friend doesn’t go back to work due to “the incident” , the shit really should hit the fan and it becomes a lost time accident too. Also reportable.
It sounds now like he's going to go to the doctor tomorrow with a view to getting signed off for a couple of weeks. If nothing else it'll give him time to process what's happened rather than making any rash decisions.
Any physical symptoms aside, he's been rather badly shaken by the whole thing.
Reportable to whom?
For what difference it makes if any,
The lad in question is quite young, I think he turns 22 at the end of the year. He's been doing an apprenticeship there for three or four years.
Hse.
Advise him to go to work.
My daft, lazy cousin fell off a ladder , got a “sore” ankle & had a few days off. His employer finished him as soon as possible after the investigation etc was over.
