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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/8472265.stm
I'd say I'm stunned, but not sure that's quite the right word either...
TBH I find that whole story deeply disturbing.
It's just so sad...... 🙁
Nothing to discuss really, is there.
Beyond grim.
I've just been reading this in the paper. The thing that strikes me is where and how to kids of that age get the knowledge, inclination and nastyness to do such a thing?
It's astonishing really, a terrible thing.
Nothing to discuss really, is there.
I was going to write a long post, then deleted it. Sort of didn't have anything to say after all after reading that...
PeterPoddy - Member
I've just been reading this in the paper. The thing that strikes me is where and how to kids of that age get the knowledge, inclination and nastyness to do such a thing?It's astonishing really, a terrible thing.
from their parents.....sadly
poor kids ;-( and i bet the lads who did it get next to nowt as punishment and shipped off to a sunny country with new id's in a few years ;-( and the poor kids will be scarred for life
It's almost beyond belief that children can do this to each other.
I wonder if their parents could be charged with something it seems they deserve some measure of blame.
and i bet the lads who did it get next to nowt as punishment and shipped off to a sunny country
ah, perhaps brutalising them will improve their behaviour ?
they should be ****ing hung so dont even start do gooding
Is anybody up for arguing that not having children is a bad idea now if this is what htey have the potential to turn into?
The lads that did it are children too, f888ked up children but still children.
It's a hardline you're taking there.
bad parents make bad kids.
phew. hard reading.
it's hard to figure out, as someone for which that stuff just doesn't compute. to do that kind of stuff those kids must have come from a very bad place.
I can only imagine how I'd feel/what i'd do if that happened to my kids (if I had any)
Wish I hadn't read that. Horrendous.
they should be **** hung so dont even start do gooding
Don't be so quick to judge - where do you reckon they learned to behave like that?
Is anybody up for arguing that not having children is a bad idea now if this is what htey have the potential to turn into?
so 2 bad children = all children bad ?
they should be **** hung so dont even start do gooding
I noticed with the Bolger case a kind of righteous fury that children below the age of criminal responsibility were somehow more culpable than adults who do the same things and so deserved harsher treatment. I think it's based on a kind of unrealistic ideal of childhood innocence.
Truly shocking.
[i]Is anybody up for arguing that not having children is a bad idea now if this is what htey have the potential to turn into? [/i]
What if my eldest is the person who cures cancer?
Execute them and their parents. The parents are as much to blame as the scum kids.
Its just sickening reading that.
i think the parents of the children that did it need a ****ing good hiding as it is them who has brought them up to behave like that.
those poor kids are going to be affected by this for life now whilst the other two ****ers will probably do something like it again .
no simon if adults did it they should be hung too
if you do something like that "as there was nowt else to do" (their words) then you dont deserve another breath
I have to agree with ton here - kids arent born monsters, they learn from their families, peers and environment. And before anyone jumps down my throat about do-gooding, don't bother, because I work with people who's lives are f***ed up because of sh*t like this, and I know only too well there are no fast answers. If they were, as reported, 'known troublemakers' then someone needs to put their hands up to this, preferably starting with the parents. It's sad, unbelievably sad, and it makes me so f***ing angry as well. You'd have thought that after the Bulger case we might have learnt something...
I believe they were in foster care at the time but I don't know the details
Social services may well have had issues with the parenting already
I think it's based on a kind of unrealistic ideal of childhood innocence.
I agree.
Really tragic, although, TBH, I'm not that surprised. I think children are quite capable of overriding whatever it is that's stops a lot of adults from similar behaviour. Children are exactly that - immature, unable to fully control their emotions and often unable to see through the full course of their actions. Once they start bouncing ideas off a likeminded associate (particularly if both have psychopathic tendencies) it doesn't take much for their behaviour to get out of control. Think of some of the worse cases of bulling you have seen...
Seems like these two had been in foster care according to this article. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/8470299.stm
Doubt their unstable background helped much. Not that it's an excuse mind.
+1 for barnsleymitch
If they were, as reported, 'known troublemakers' then someone needs to put their hands up to this, preferably starting with the parents. It's sad, unbelievably sad, and it makes me so f***ing angry as well. You'd have thought that after the Bulger case we might have learnt something...
So we should have 24hr supervision? lock them up?
I don't think it's quite that simple.
Lord of the Flies, anyone?
Lord of the Flies, anyone?
That's what I was thinking. I'm not convinced kids are turned into monsters. They start off as monsters and have to be be taught otherwise.
It casts a shadow over our society when such appalling crimes can be committed by young people.
There is a section of our society where standards, responsibility, self discipline, care for others is either lost or blurred.
Children are shaped by how they are brought up by their parents, nurtured and taught to lead an active and responsible place in society.
When that does not happen why are we surprised when sink estates become ghettos and places of fear.
While we all ruminate on the hows and the whys four young people now have shattered lives.
Professional people such as care workers, police and social services have once again failed.
As for the parents, if you can't raise your kids then should you be allowed to keep them.
"So we should have 24hr supervision? lock them up?
I don't think it's quite that simple."
Read the rest of my post - you'll see that I believe there are no fast answers. Perhaps a reasonable starting point is for someone (hopefully the parents) to take some responsibility. And what's wrong with some level of supervision? I want to know where my kids are 24/7, and if the two lads involved were already known to the Police / Social services, etc, why didnt this happen?
It's not really surprising that kids do this sort of thing, they're generally exposed to the same sorts of violent images that adults are these days, if not more so, and they're also not fully aware of or don't think about the true depth of their actions, a bit like a drunk adult.
That's why kids should be more protected from such violent imagery etc - everyone knows how to kick and punch, but to take it that stage further requires thought and knowledge that has to have been gathered from elsewhere IMO. While the argument that computer games and films don't make a killer, they do sew the understanding and thought processes required to attempt it, even if it's just done out of immitation.
You'd have thought that after the Bulger case we might have learnt something...
I had hoped we would stop criminalising what are clearly badly damaged children. Very few other countries in the world do this - why - because it does not good.
Worth noting in my opinion that this isn't a new phenomenon (therefore not due to video nasties?). The wikipedia entry on [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_murde ]Child murder[/url], highlights that child on child murder/violence is relatively common and lists Mary Bell as an example (1968) as well as the image from 1748 Newgate Calendar.
TJ - I'm not saying we should criminalise children, merely reflecting my thoughts that as a society we should be doing something more, and not in a punitive way.
Professional people such as care workers, police and social services have once again failed.
You've never going to have a perfect system where this never happens though are you.
The case is absolutely sickening.
However, the kids, and they are still kids, can't have been like that to start. I think upbringing, or lack of, has a lot to do with it. Sadly this won't make it any easier for the victims.
+1 TJ - this reminded me of a comparison to the Bulger case with a similar incident in [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/people/highlights/001109_child.shtml ]Norway.[/url]
woody2000:
> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1020530/ - Movies like this don't help
🙄 *
*I did write a lengthy rebuttal to the above but decided the eye rolling emoticon was much more succinct.
barnsleymitch - MemberTJ - I'm not saying we should criminalise children, merely reflecting my thoughts that as a society we should be doing something more, and not in a punitive way.
Agreed mitch. I didn't think you were
No doubt I'll be coming back to this post later. For now, I'm off to pick up my two (five and six years old) from school, and for once wont get on at them for being too loud or not eating their dinner. Life's too short, and innocence doesnt last long enough.
Really Jamie? Have you seen it? It's violent, and it has children committing acts of violence.
TJ - sorry if I came over a bit defensive there, I just find it difficult to remain subjective on issues like this.
've just been reading this in the paper. The thing that strikes me is where and how to kids of that age get the knowledge, inclination and nastyness to do such a thing?
I would imagine they have been abused themselves, deeply sad on so many levels
woody2000 - Member
Really Jamie? Have you seen it? It's violent, and it has children committing acts of violence.
Yes, but so does Lord of the Flies so what is your point? Or should that be held accountable as well?
I didn't mean it was directly accountable, but kids are influenced by what they see, so it would be good if a little parental nouse was employed. IMO there's too much "ready violence" available to kids, games & movies all add to a sense of detachment from real pain and suffering that could be dangerous to vulnerable minds.
I didn't mean it was directly accountable, but kids are influenced by what they see, so it would be good if a little parental nouse was employed
Well if you had said the parents allowing the children to see a film, that is clearly certificated for 15/18s+, then i would have agreed with you. Whereas you just linked to a film saying it was not helping.
IMO there's too much "ready violence" available to kids, games & movies all add to a sense of detachment from real pain and suffering that could be dangerous to vulnerable minds.
There have always been complete lil' bastards out there, i would not say this is a indictment of children having sponges in their brains ready to soak up their latest set of violent instructions for life.
I didn't mean it was directly accountable, but kids are influenced by what they see, so it would be good if a little parental nouse was employed. IMO there's too much "ready violence" available to kids, games & movies all add to a sense of detachment from real pain and suffering that could be dangerous to vulnerable minds
If video nasties etc. really made any difference, wouldn't these horrible kid murders be becoming more common, rather than just happening every so often, same as they always have done?
Joe
Well if you had said the parents allowing the children to see a film, that is clearly certificated for 15/18s+, then i would have agreed with you. Whereas you just linked to a film saying it was not helping.
Isn't that immediately obvious from the outset though? Without parental (or other supervisory) mis-guidance they'd not be seeing the film.
There have always been complete lil' bastards out there, i would not say this is a indictment of children having sponges in their brains ready to soak up their latest set of violent instructions for life.
Correct, there have always been people more violent than others, thats kind of natural and obvious - variation. However having violence on screen and in the media so clearly obvious to kids and often graphically available is highly likely, surely, to creep into their consciousness and decision making. I mean advertising works just by recognition of wrappers/colours, you're telling me next time someone is faced with an argument the kid who's seen a dozen violent movies is LESS or equally likely to kick off than the quiet kid whos had no exposure to it? I dont think violent vids/games MAKE someone violent, but I think it certainly tends them towards it especially if already that way inclined.I'm fairly sure theres some solid scientific evidence towards that too.
these horrible kid murders be becoming more common, rather than just happening every so often, same as they always have done?
Who's to say they're not, for a start I suspect the recording and detail of such things more than 50 years ago was fairly poor, and since TV etc has only really been violent and obvious for what - 30 years, we don't really have anything statistically solid on which to base judgement, or with which to compare?
Everytime I try and write an opinion on this i find myself at a loss for words. I can't think of something to say. I wonder how the people whos job it is to prevent this kind of thing happening even get up in the mornings let alone start to address these issues.
We do seem to be living in a society that increasingly devalues peoples dignity and has less of a demarcation line between kids and adults. Old fashioned values mean scurvy and world wars to me but there must be a way out of this?
@joe - No idea. Maybe it's too soon to say, after all ultra-violent games are a recent invention, as are video nasties (relatively speaking anyway).
gobsmacking!!
the ironic thing is that when they get charged, imprisoned then serve their sentence they will get new identities (to protect them) WTF...... what about the poor victims... scarred for life.
I am sorry kids like that are just vile & disgusting, yes maybe the parents themselves are too blame - just makes me see that I'm a good parent and my kids have been bought up with good manners/morals like the majority of society.
The parents should be accountable, and why is the system always out to protect the guilty and not the innocent...grrrr don't get me started.
Truly shocking, I immediately thought of that Eden Lake film too. Its probably the most disturbing film I have watched. If the kids are that screwed up there is a fair chance watching that film might give them the idea to do something similar. They may just be kids but they shouldn't get off lightly, I can't see that doing any good either.
and why is the system always out to protect the guilty and not the innocent.
perhaps because the perpetrators are far more likely to be meted out summary retribution than the victims ?
Dp those of you that want them punished really think children of 10 and 11 should be charged tried and punished as adults?
Just managed to find out a bit more background. The mother of the kids that carried out the attack was, and presumably still is, an alcoholic. The father(s) are very much not on the scene. There is at least one other publicised incident where the two boys (whilst accompanied by the mother) were 'torturing' swans in a local park. When a guy asked them to stop, the mother told him to **** off. The media has already started pointing the finger at social services, etc, and it all looks like turning into an over publicised blame fest.
The parents should be accountable
this is based on the fallacy that children take any notice of their parenats which any parent will tell you is not true (except slightly when in the presence of said parent)
Social workers simply cannot get every case right - either its "cruel social workers breaking up families" Or its "social worker leaves child at risk in family"
Of course call me dave and the rest of the right wing numpties will sort this out buy starving social work depts of money and denigrating the social workers so that they all leave.
Haringey ( baby P case) has something like 30% vacancies in its child protection dept. This is not uncommen. underpay people and demonise them in the media and its no suprise no one wants to do the job.
Dp those of you that want them punished really think children of 10 and 11 should be charged tried and punished as adults?
Whats your solution to turn these kids into upstanding members of the community? do you even think that will ever happen or is even possible?
Absolutely gut wrenching story, especially as I have an 8 and 9 year old nipper myself. I agree with a lot of the sentiment here, however I do strongly believe that the criminals out there (of whatever age) fear no consequence for what they do. Last week a little kid of about 10 lobbed a snowball loaded with a chunk of brick at my cars windscreen and nearly killed my whole family. I got out of the car and gripped the little shit who told me to eff off, told me there's eff all I could do and if I touch him he'll have me effing well nicked. In a posh middle class accent too, he was no oik. I wouldn't have done that in my day for fear of a slap, can't make out if that was a good or bad thing anymore.
Haringey ( baby P case) has something like 30% vacancies in its child protection dept. This is not uncommen. underpay people and demonise them in the media and its no suprise no one wants to do the job
Quite how you are going to pin that on the "Evil Tories" in beyond me. Haringey is Labour, as is the government IIRC. The lack of new social workers is a consequence of this governments policy.
RS - have a read of[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/people/highlights/001109_child.shtml ]this[/url] and compare and contrast how we deal with this and how other countries do.
Att eh age of these children it is extremely doubtful the can be fairly dealt with in an adult court.
My solution?
In general more resources into social work depts to improve prevention. For these badly damaged children they need serious psychological therapy to attempt to turn them into useful members of socoiety. It can be done. Probably no more expensive than jail time. Obviously they will need very close supervision perhaps residential for some time.
I simply do not believe in the criminalisation of what is obviously very badly damaged children.
Stevie -
correct. I did not mean to imply that the current situation is of the tories making ( apart from the right wing press witch-hunts of course) but as callmedave has made it clear there will be major cuts in budgets to fund tax cuts for the rich the situation will only get worse.
Errrr-so has Alastair Darling said there'll be massive budget cuts. And let's be honest, Cameron has never, ever said that he'll cut budgets to fund tax cuts for the rich, that's a daft lie peddled by Ed Balls.
Stevie - wake up and smell the coffee - all the proposed tory tax cuts will go to the rich - from the changes to married peoples tax to the changes to inheritance tax - all disproportionally to the rich.
Its tather an aside to the main point tho. I shouldn't have raised it.
Wake up and smell the coffee yourself Jerry. I'll go and put on a pot for you while you tell me how proposing to remove tax credits from those on £50k or more as well as removing child trust funds for the same £50k+ earners benefits the rich. But there again, as you say, wrong thread anyways.
TJ I read that article and to be honest I'm not convinced the Norway method was the correct one, It makes a big deal out of the bulger killers having a hard time adjusting to life, oh what a shame! 🙄 I have kind of mixed views, I mean, at 10 years old you obviously don't think things through properly but equally they killed a 2 year old kid, they shouldn't just expect to go back to normality. In the Norway case why should they go back to normality one week after stoning a child to death? How they were thought of as victims I don't know.
Here's a point to consider-are these kids or any others [i]born[/i] bad? Are there some people who are actually evil and beyond help?
RS - the simple fact is that the Norway approach means a great chance of the offending children ending up as productive members of society.
]There is no deterrence in treating children as criminals. Rehabilitation does not rely on them being criminalised. Do you really think a civilised society needs retribution on damaged children?
the perpatrtors of this werent born bad they can be considered victims also, despite their crimes
from the bbc
The boys' mother, who has seven sons including the two defendants, described to a consultant psychiatrist being subjected to serious violence by their father.Mr Kelson described one incident when her partner said he would "take a knife to her and slice her face to bits".
He added: "These threats were made in front of the children."
The barrister said his client's upbringing could be summarised by a reference in one report to his "toxic home life".
Mr Kelson said his client had been shown horror films at his home when he was as young as 10.
Police video shows the route the boys took before and after the horrific attack
He said the films were "extremely violent" and "gruesome movies in the extreme".
The barrister said the boy also had access to his father's pornographic DVDs.
Mr Kelson said his client would also drink cider, had 10 cigarettes a day and smoked cannabis grown on his father's allotment from the age of nine.
they never really stood a chance of having a normal life did they
just as background I seem to remember that the kids had largely been left to fend for themselves as their mother was drug addicted - they had to spend time hunting for both food and clothes in bins. I can't imagine having to do that as 8 yr olds. By the time they hit foster care they were unmanageable (by most foster parents I guess). Not trying to excuse what they did, just pointing another big fat finger at the original parents.
has to be a link here somewhere, there ya go [url] http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/sep/06/edlington-attack-children-social-workers [/url]
just pointing another big fat finger at the original parents.
except that's a great cop out. We already know the parents are deeply damaged too, so blaming them has no useful function, and is merely passive, or pointlessly active if you try to punish them in the aftermath
Why is anyone even surprised by this?
We have a society where we create an underclass of people, where life chances are non existent for some families and we ignore them until events like this occur. It would end up cheaper for us to have sent these kids to which ever private school you choose rather than attempting to lock them up after the fact.
To deal with it requires a massive, massive investment that must be sustained and increased year on year, and which, if it works will look like wasted money.
We live in a society which is quite happy to demonise kids like this, even though they are the product of two or three or four generations of poorly educated, probably mentally ill parents and grandparents...
To summarise, they're not evil; they are damaged.
We already know the parents are deeply damaged too, so blaming them has no useful function, and is merely passive, or pointlessly active if you try to punish them in the aftermath
It's only useful in that it helps mitigate the natural reaction to want to punish the children as severely as possible, they aren't completely responsible for how they have ended up. You're right it that it would be pointless to punish the parents in the aftermath
You're right it that it would be pointless to punish the parents in the aftermath
thats almost like saying it would be pointless to punish a murderer after he has killed. It is clearly their upbringing thats made them what they are, although at the same time i'm sure you can have posh kids turn into evil little shits too.
Whatever caused it, something has to be done to stop them re-offending whether it be locking them up or counselling, probably a combo of both. They shouldn't be excused of all responsibility.
thats almost like saying it would be pointless to punish a murderer after he has killed
but that's probably true too! Does punishment ever work ? Doesn't it just foster resentment ? Certainly brutalising people is unlikely to improve their behaviour. Locking someone away may prevent their scope for bad behaviour, or perhaps just focus it onto other offenders, but without other rehabilitation it may well just make them more careful not to get caught next time.
According to BarnsleyMitch post above, it appears similar to the Mary Bells crime, where the child is massively influenced by the actions and attitude of the parent. In the case of Mary Bells, her mother was a prostitute who specialised in S&M, whipping, mock strangulation etc. Mary was regularly exposed to it, so she ended up strangling another kid.